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Old 09-23-2022, 12:13 AM   #1
CrimsonFox
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Iranian Revolution

There is some heavy stuff going dowqn in Iran. Women are ripping off their burqas and buringing them in fires in the street. People are swarming and beating the pants out of iran police.

Seeing a lot of videos in this subreddit "r/nextfuckinglevel"

An Elderly Woman in Iran removes the Headscarf and joins the protests chanting 'Death to Khamenei' : nextfuckinglevel

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Old 09-23-2022, 12:28 PM   #2
Toddzilla
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This will end in one of two ways:

1. A lot of people being killed by the government to restore order and maintain oppressive control of the people

2. A lot of people being killed in a bloody revolution of sorts that results in a new, slightly less oppressive government.

However, the fact that women are leading this "culture revolution" leads me to believe that there will be some actual progressive change in the end.
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Old 09-23-2022, 01:01 PM   #3
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Well they ARE showing that people ARE dying. On both sides
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Old 09-23-2022, 01:06 PM   #4
NobodyHere
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Well they ARE showing that people ARE dying. On both sides

I'm sure there are very fine people on both sides.
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Old 09-23-2022, 06:59 PM   #5
Edward64
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I'm sure it'll be #1.

No way there'll be an internal revolution because of women's "rights".
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Old 09-23-2022, 11:22 PM   #6
JPhillips
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I just can't feel anything other than a sense of dread for what is coming. It just seems so unlikely that these protests will lead to anything other than severe repression.

Who is going to be the first GOPer to say that the Iranian government is better than the woke liberals?
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Old 09-26-2022, 10:06 AM   #7
Edward64
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10 days of protests so far.

It would be great if it happened but suspect no real reforms. We're talking about a country firmly controlled by a bunch of religious (& sexist) zealots, supported by the military.
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Old 09-26-2022, 11:29 AM   #8
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Does it benefit the Iranian government to allow the protests at its current level this long or even a little while longer?

I think we all agree that it has lasted much longer than anyone anticipated. At this point they can claim the government is not as oppressive as the west like to say because they have allowed the people to voice their disapproval in a free manner. Then, when the Supreme Leader gives the signal to crush the protest, they will be able to say that like countries in the west, the protestors step over the line and forced the government to step in so to provide a safe and secure environment for all citizens.
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Old 09-26-2022, 11:59 AM   #9
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Underlying this is the pretty provocative (in my view) notion that "respect for religious freedom" does sometimes conflict with "universal human rights," and there are quite a lot of people who aren't comfortable recognizing that. Tolerance of belief systems seems like a sensible point of view, but what do you do when central tenets of a bona fide religion are objectively sexist, racist, or otherwise unreasonable to most reasonable people outside that faith?

It's rather like the plight of American families who practice religions denying modern medicine... at what point does society step in and say "okay, believe what you want, but you don't get to let you kid die just because you were taught to not believe in safe treatment of curable diseases." That isn't all that divisive anymore, but the contours are largely the same.

You run the risk of sounding xenophibic or Islamophobic when saying so, but at what point do we get to reframe matters of "universal" rights and principles as being on a higher order than holy books? (And yes, I realize this has domestic implications as well, of course it does)
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Old 09-26-2022, 12:05 PM   #10
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"A" bona fide religion.
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Old 09-26-2022, 01:35 PM   #11
CrimsonFox
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"A" bona fide religion.

yeah seriously. I can't name a religion that ISN'T those things
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Old 09-27-2022, 10:57 AM   #12
flere-imsaho
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Originally Posted by QuikSand View Post
but at what point do we get to reframe matters of "universal" rights and principles as being on a higher order than holy books?

Probably only when a healthy majority of the population feels strongly that laws should be compartmentalized from religion.

Here's a US poll that shows the converse, basically measuring how much of the population thinks laws should be based on religion: Half of Americans say Bible should influence U.S. laws, including 28% who favor it over the will of the people | Pew Research Center

While it does measure people who say "not much/none", it would be interesting to see how many Americans polled would say something like "strongly no". I suspect you'd need to see that strength of feeling in a majority of a population to be able to successfully compartmentalize the two. Because strength of feeling will always exist on the other side (as history shows us).
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Old 10-04-2022, 12:11 PM   #13
Edward64
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Didn't realize that was a universal sign


Last edited by Edward64 : 10-04-2022 at 12:12 PM.
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Old 10-04-2022, 01:17 PM   #14
Brian Swartz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuikSand
at what point do we get to reframe matters of "universal" rights and principles as being on a higher order than holy books? (And yes, I realize this has domestic implications as well, of course it does)

IMO, never. You pretty much give up on religious freedom etc. at that point. Whatever term you want to give for what is described here as 'universal human rights', it's basically enshrining secular humanism or some other formulation you may wish to define as the dominant belief system that everyone must adhere to. Whether one wants to call that a religion or something else, it's still the same basic idea - either people are to be subjected to enforcement of the dictates of an official belief system or they have the freedom to choose and act on what they believe on their own.

Society may well end up saying at some point that freedom of belief isn't worth that price, but you definitely can't go there and at the same time maintain that freedom. It's a state religion under a different name.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward64
Didn't realize that was a universal sign

It's actually not, but is probably becoming more common in the information age.

Last edited by Brian Swartz : 10-04-2022 at 01:20 PM.
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Old 10-04-2022, 01:21 PM   #15
CrimsonFox
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Originally Posted by Edward64 View Post
Didn't realize that was a universal sign


I really really love their hair. That braid is fantastic too
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Old 10-11-2022, 04:46 PM   #16
Edward64
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I read a tweet criticizing the lack of condemnation from Michelle Obama. Now Michelle has released a statement but there is criticism that it took so long.

TBH I'm not sure it was fair to expect Michelle Obama to condemn. Jill Biden did condemn but it was a joint thing with Joe. I'm thinking its more appropriate for Jill to "drive" the condemnations.

It made me wonder, are the Iranian women protesters really getting the support they need outside of politicians & their statements of support? Could there be more movie/music celebrities, influencers, athletes, sports teams etc. that could be more vocal? Let's say Beyonce is very popular in Iran, shouldn't she (or the equivalent) be helping & speaking out more? If they are, I'm not reading much of that in MSM. It just seems the Iranian women are all out there by themselves ...

Obamas praise the 'Iranian women and girls who have inspired the world through their ongoing protests' | Fox News
Quote:
Barack and Michelle Obama released a statement on Tuesday praising the Iranian protesters who have taken to the streets in recent weeks over the death of a 22-year-old woman last month while in the custody of the regime's so-called morality police.

Last edited by Edward64 : 10-11-2022 at 04:49 PM.
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Old 10-11-2022, 08:52 PM   #17
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I would give great credit to any celebrity who has made the call to stay silent because they don't know shit about what is going on in Iran. That being said, several western celebrities have put out statements of support including Kim K., Angelina Jolie etc. More importantly IMO there are several Iranian celebrities who have supported the protests putting themselves on the government's naughty step.

To me, it is sort of problematic for U.S. celebrities specifically to condemn the morality police in Iran from restricting Iranian women's freedom.
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Old 10-11-2022, 08:55 PM   #18
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Dola, I suspect that this oil workers strike might be the catalyst for the government putting an end to all of this. I hope I am wrong though.
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Old 10-11-2022, 09:50 PM   #19
Edward64
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Originally Posted by miami_fan View Post
To me, it is sort of problematic for U.S. celebrities specifically to condemn the morality police in Iran from restricting Iranian women's freedom.

Good point.
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Old 10-15-2022, 12:55 PM   #20
Edward64
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Video of Iranians taking down head/statue of Khomeini.

Still not obvious to me how real/widespread this "revolt" is. But below video showed males and not the women doing the defacing.

https://twitter.com/ksadjadpour/stat...10427340296192
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Old 10-15-2022, 03:10 PM   #21
whomario
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The infamous Evin Prison is on fire and gun shots can be heard in videos ...

Some armchair revolutionaries are excited but it seems more likely that this isn't some sort of attack on the prison but a whole bunch of political dissidents burning alive and being gunned down trying to escape.
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Old 11-21-2022, 08:36 PM   #22
Edward64
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Probably just a bunch of hot air but would be an interesting scenario if this happened. Good distraction from their internal problems. Not sure what the US would do if just directed towards the Kurds up north.

https://apnews.com/article/iran-midd...eb67e1110437b6
Quote:
A senior Iranian military official visiting Baghdad this week threatened Iraq with a ground military operation in the country’s north if the Iraqi army does not fortify the countries’ shared border against Kurdish opposition groups, multiple Iraqi and Kurdish officials said.

Such an offensive, if carried out, would be unprecedented in Iraq, and raise the specter of regional fallout from Iran’s domestic unrest, which Tehran has portrayed as a foreign plot without offering evidence.

The warning was delivered this week to Iraqi and Kurdish officials in Baghdad by Iran’s Quds Force commander Esmail Ghaani, who arrived in the capital Monday on an unannounced two-day visit. The force is an elite unit within Iran’s Revolutionary Guard.

Iran alleges that Kurdish opposition groups long exiled in northern Iraq are inciting anti-government protests in Iran and smuggling weapons into the country. Iranian authorities have not provided evidence of these allegations which Kurdish groups have denied.

It is unclear how serious the Iranian warning is, but it puts Baghdad in a predicament. It is the first time Iranian officials have publicly threatened a ground operation after months of cross-border tensions and asking Iraq to disarm opposition groups active inside its territories.
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Old 11-21-2022, 08:45 PM   #23
Edward64
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All over the news about the Iranian team not singing their national anthem. Tough spot for them. I think being silent is a good "compromise" for the World Cup.

I do wonder if they will continue to be silent in all their remaining games.

Queiroz on Iran boos: 'Stay at home' if you can't support team
Quote:
Several members of the Iran squad have received criticism leading up to the tournament for not openly speaking out against the country's government amid nationwide protests, and players were jeered by their own fans during the Group B opener.

On Monday, all 11 players took a different stance, and decided not to sing the country's national anthem prior to kick off at the Khalifa International Stadium in a perceived show of support for protesters in Iran, a situation sparked two months ago by the death of 22-year-old Mahsa Amini in 'morality police custody.'
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Old 11-21-2022, 11:15 PM   #24
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Considering the consequences, it's brave of them to do anything. Hopefully those that do some sort of protest don't reside in Iran.
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Old 11-22-2022, 06:24 AM   #25
Edward64
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Good read on the current protests. I really do hope this results in some change.

The Iranian government fails to contain mass protests, despite brutal tactics - Vox
Quote:
Still, more than 300 have been killed during the protests. That number includes roughly 50 children under 18, the New York Times’ Farnaz Fassihi reported last week. But casualties and arrests are difficult to track; social media and internet access have been severely curtailed, and foreign reporters can’t access the country. Thus far, five protesters are set to be executed for participating in the uprising.
Quote:
But there are signs that the regime is not fully in control of the riot police, whom Daragahi described as either thugs or religious zealots, which puts it in a precarious position.

“People are getting killed because it’s a mess; they’re unprofessional and they can’t do proper crowd control,” Daragahi explained. “Basically, when you let the dogs out of their cages, this dynamic erupts. No one is going around and executing children on the street; they’re just reckless and evil, thugs, who are hired to go and crack down on this protest. They have very little experience.”
Still hard for me to tell if this is for real (e.g. widespread & sustainable) or just wishful thinking.

Quote:
The current social movement is spreading in the following ways: students in major universities (112 universities and counting) are on strike; high school students are walking out of classrooms; street protests are occurring almost every night, especially on Wednesdays, and on the traditional 40th day of passing of each “martyr” killed by security forces.
Quote:
“It’s really touching and kind of unprecedented even, perhaps, globally, this kind of feminist angle, and it is real,” Daragahi said. “The men supporting the women, the schoolgirls going out and protesting by day, the schoolboys going out and rioting against the police at night, people backing each other up, people cheering on the women as they take off their hijabs and so on. This whole feminist angle of it is quite singular, for a political revolution in any country.”
Quote:
However, the country’s elite seem to be surviving the economic free-fall and maintaining their support for and ties to the regime, too, Vaez said. “We have seen no serious defections so far,” among the country’s well-connected and powerful upper class. Despite “the abject failures of the regime to improve the country’s economic well-being,” the highest echelons of society have, at least publicly, refused to stand up to those in power.
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Old 12-03-2022, 05:39 PM   #26
Edward64
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Congrats to the Iranian women protestors and their supporters. Let's hope this really happens. I suspect many want a lot more concessions but think this is a good start.

Protest-hit Iran says reviewing mandatory headscarf law
Quote:
Iran said Saturday it is reviewing a decades-old law that requires women to cover their heads, as it struggles to quell more than two months of protests linked to the dress code.

Protests have swept Iran since the September 16 death in custody of Mahsa Amini, a 22-year-old Iranian of Kurdish origin arrested by the morality police for allegedly flouting the sharia-based law.

Demonstrators have burned their head coverings and shouted anti-government slogans. Since Amini's death, a growing number of women have not been observing hijab, particularly in Tehran's fashionable north.

"Both parliament and the judiciary are working (on the issue)" of whether the law needs any changes, Iran's attorney general Mohammad Jafar Montazeri said.

Quoted by the ISNA news agency, he did not specify what could be modified in the law by the two bodies, which are largely in the hands of conservatives.

The review team met on Wednesday with parliament's cultural commission "and will see the results in a week or two", the attorney general said.
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