HOW TO START THE LEAGUE.

Ben E Lou · 11-28-2006, 05:47 AM

I guess it's time to go ahead and get these polls going. Here's the first one.

EDIT: For this one, obviously we'd have to determine later the details of how the presim or live draft would work, but at least this poll will give us a general direction to head in.

3ric · 11-28-2006, 06:03 AM

Presim. I'm not very interested in doing a live dispersal draft, and the prospect of starting in the offseason with 15-20 years of history is very appealing to me.

Narcizo · 11-28-2006, 06:13 AM

I get wet at the prospect of being able to see exactly where in the draft each player was picked and being able to judge players on performance as well as scouted ratings right from the start.

Ben E Lou · 11-28-2006, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narcizo

I get wet at the prospect of being able to see exactly where in the draft each player was picked and being able to judge players on performance as well as scouted ratings right from the start.

Narcizo · 11-28-2006, 06:41 AM

Almost literally.

MIJB#19 · 11-28-2006, 07:27 AM

The preference draft option is the least appealing to me.

Icy · 11-28-2006, 07:33 AM

Presim For History, and start in the staff hiring stage.

else

Preference Draft.

miked · 11-28-2006, 07:39 AM

Voted for presim. We did this in one of our OOTP leagues and it's pretty cool for historical perspective. Also, removes the randomness of the preference draft.

Narcizo · 11-28-2006, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miked

Also, removes the randomness of the preference draft.

Speaking as someone who voted for a pre-sim a desire to remove randomness from the initial set-up really isn't a good reason to vote for it.

VPI97 · 11-28-2006, 09:07 AM

I really dislike the idea of having no control over your roster.

cartman · 11-28-2006, 10:08 AM

My preference is for a live draft, but I realize the almost impossible logistical task it would be.

Emiliano · 11-28-2006, 10:13 AM

#3 for me. As alternative, preference draft.

wade moore · 11-28-2006, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cartman

My preference is for a live draft, but I realize the almost impossible logistical task it would be.

I've really shifted to it not being an impossible task based on what I'm hearing about the GEFL..

In fact, I haven't voted yet on this because I'm majorly on the fence between pre-sim and live draft.

gstelmack · 11-28-2006, 11:22 AM

SkyDog, if it's not too late to change my vote, I'd rather switch from Pre-Sim to Preference Draft. The more I think about it, and the more I look over the post in the other thread about the league state after a while, the more convinced I become that a bit of history is not worth getting rid of all the level playing field benefits. I don't like giving up control over my stadium and the option to build a new one quickly, I don't like that some may end up with a worse stadium through this, and I don't like that the AI will determine who has had losing seasons and thus is worse off economically and fan-support-wise than others.

I think the level playing field for the start is more important than the history. We should build the history as we go.

RedKingGold · 11-28-2006, 11:27 AM

I'm surprised that live draft has not received more votes.

As MIJB has stated, we can do a live draft for the first 25-30 rounds then make a rule that all owners have to select via preference list (removing the right to make live picks).

Happiest of both worlds as owners can draft their starters and have control over their team and the draft itself would not go over two-to-three weeks.

gstelmack · 11-28-2006, 11:30 AM

That assumes no one has to take vacation during the draft and so either has to set a long list or go with AI selections. I think the Preference Draft with Level Economics is the most "fair" start for everyone in the league.

wade moore · 11-28-2006, 11:33 AM

I wonder if it would have made sense to have a vote of pre-sim vs. draft before this split?

Ben E Lou · 11-28-2006, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstelmack

I think the Preference Draft with Level Economics is the most "fair" start for everyone in the league.

You're probably right about that. A vote for the presim is definitely the most "risky" vote. You *could* start in a bit of a hole. I like to live dangerously, though.

VPI97 · 11-28-2006, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wade moore

I've really shifted to it not being an impossible task based on what I'm hearing about the GEFL..

As RKG mentioned, what we did in GEFL was have everyone submit pref draft files in addition to having a live draft that lasted 22 rounds or two weeks (whichever took longer). I handled the draft by importing the pref files, manually entering the picks from our two week draft (IIRC, we made it through 30-some rounds), and then pulling an all-nighter where I finished the final 20 rounds by combining AI picks with whatever people still had in their draft app preference lists. I thought it was an ideal approach to combine roster building with keeping on schedule.

wade moore · 11-28-2006, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VPI97

As RKG mentioned, what we did in GEFL was have everyone submit pref draft files in addition to having a live draft that lasted 22 rounds or two weeks (whichever took longer). I handled the draft by importing the pref files, manually entering the picks from our two week draft (IIRC, we made it through 30-some rounds), and then pulling an all-nighter where I finished the final 20 rounds by combining AI picks with whatever people still had in their draft app preference lists. I thought it was an ideal approach to combine roster building with keeping on schedule.

This is VERY similar to how we used to do in-house drafts in Madden with me and some of my friends. We did the first 22 (or sometimes up to like 26) so that we got our starters and some key backups. Then we let the CPU finish the rest.

If we set a time limit on it, like you did in the GEFL, that would be ideal.

Idano. The only real thing keeping me from jumping right on the pre-sim is the stadium issue. I would love to do everything possible so that we don't have the problem we've seen in other leagues where bad stadium conditions out of the owners control becomes the crutch for years to come.

Ben E Lou · 11-28-2006, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wade moore

Idano. The only real thing keeping me from jumping right on the pre-sim is the stadium issue. I would love to do everything possible so that we don't have the problem we've seen in other leagues where bad stadium conditions out of the owners control becomes the crutch for years to come.

I need to go back and look again tonight, but I'm pretty sure it won't be an issue for a long time. All of the newly-built stadiums had VG or Exc turf, I'm almost certain. The ones that weren't hadn't been worked on in a long time. I think it only takes three seasons to do a renovation, if I recall correctly. It's nothing like FOF2K4, where some teams had to wait for years before they could even submit a plan.

wade moore · 11-28-2006, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkyDog

I need to go back and look again tonight, but I'm pretty sure it won't be an issue for a long time. All of the newly-built stadiums had VG or Exc turf, I'm almost certain. The ones that weren't hadn't been worked on in a long time. I think it only takes three seasons to do a renovation, if I recall correctly. It's nothing like FOF2K4, where some teams had to wait for years before they could even submit a plan.

Fair point.

We could mayb eidscuss commish intervention so that all stadiums are relatively equal after a pre-sim also.

Ben E Lou · 11-28-2006, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wade moore

We could mayb eidscuss commish intervention so that all stadiums are relatively equal after a pre-sim also.

That could work. Submit upgrade plans for all declining turfs starting about 8 years before the "go live" year, or something like that?

stevew · 11-28-2006, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wade moore

Fair point.

We could mayb eidscuss commish intervention so that all stadiums are relatively equal after a pre-sim also.

Or we could always try to renovate everything 5 years before league start, during the pre sim. And then 4 and then 3 years if some teams won't allow it. Everyone would be starting on a repaired field basically.

stevew · 11-28-2006, 12:19 PM

wade moore · 11-28-2006, 12:20 PM

Yeah, both SD and stevew put specifics to what I inarticulately tried to say.

I'm saying that we could manually go in and submit renovations so that all/most teams were at least in G or better fields by league start.

Ben E Lou · 11-28-2006, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstelmack

SkyDog, if it's not too late to change my vote, I'd rather switch from Pre-Sim to Preference Draft. The more I think about it, and the more I look over the post in the other thread about the league state after a while, the more convinced I become that a bit of history is not worth getting rid of all the level playing field benefits. I don't like giving up control over my stadium and the option to build a new one quickly, I don't like that some may end up with a worse stadium through this, and I don't like that the AI will determine who has had losing seasons and thus is worse off economically and fan-support-wise than others.

I think the level playing field for the start is more important than the history. We should build the history as we go.

OK. I'll change your vote. I'm thinking about changing mine, too, fyi. I've been waffling between presim and live draft, and I think I'm back in the live draft camp.

RedKingGold · 11-28-2006, 12:48 PM

I definitely all for a live draft. I'd like to develop our own history, not the AI's.

Ben E Lou · 11-28-2006, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wade moore

I wonder if it would have made sense to have a vote of pre-sim vs. draft before this split?

Well, it looks like there's not going to be a majority, so I guess we ought to have a run-off between the top two?

wade moore · 11-28-2006, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Well, it looks like there's not going to be a majority, so I guess we ought to have a run-off between the top two?

See, I look at it differently.. I see it as 15 for draft and 11 for pre-sim...

Idano.. I don't want to be the wrench in the system, I just worry that we're causing a "split vote" issue where we'll actually leave a majority unhappy with the pre-sim...

gstelmack · 11-28-2006, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wade moore

See, I look at it differently.. I see it as 15 for draft and 11 for pre-sim...

Idano.. I don't want to be the wrench in the system, I just worry that we're causing a "split vote" issue where we'll actually leave a majority unhappy with the pre-sim...

Agreed. You almost wanted to have a "dispersal draft vs pre-sim" poll, and then if dispersal draft wins you want to have a "live vs pref" poll. But I think this will work out reasonably well.

RedKingGold · 11-28-2006, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wade moore

See, I look at it differently.. I see it as 15 for draft and 11 for pre-sim...

Idano.. I don't want to be the wrench in the system, I just worry that we're causing a "split vote" issue where we'll actually leave a majority unhappy with the pre-sim...

I agree with Wade on this point.

The biggest issue (assuming that stadiums are not driven unfairly out of whack by fifteen years of simming) is the degree of control we have over building our teams. Both the live draft/preference draft give some control over our teams right from the onset. The degree of control is debateable, but there is at least some control. In a pre-sim, each owner would have no control over their franchise.

Therefore, maybe there should be a new vote where it is draft vs. pre-sim. Then, do another vote between live draft and preference draft (should a draft win).

RedKingGold · 11-28-2006, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Agreed. You almost wanted to have a "dispersal draft vs pre-sim" poll, and then if dispersal draft wins you want to have a "live vs pref" poll. But I think this will work out reasonably well.

Beat me to it.

Ben E Lou · 11-28-2006, 04:50 PM

The thing is, I know I would have voted differently had it been a pure "draft vs. presim" vote. I would have remained firmly in the presim camp, so as not to run the risk of a preference draft, so you can't just add the two "draft" camps up and conclude anything.

I'm solidly in the 53-player draft camp now, having thought through all of the scenarios a bit more.

wade moore · 11-28-2006, 06:33 PM

What about a checkbox vote like we did for new invites? Maybe tell people they pick their top two and then we'll have a run-off from the top two vote getters?

Celeval · 11-28-2006, 07:41 PM

I haven't voted because I'll do any of them.

WSUCougar · 11-28-2006, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celeval

I haven't voted because I'll do any of them.

Ho

Narcizo · 11-29-2006, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Therefore, maybe there should be a new vote where it is draft vs. pre-sim. Then, do another vote between live draft and preference draft (should a draft win).

This is what I was thinking. I think you should have an absolute majority (among voters) to conduct something as radical as a pre-sim. Clearly there isn't currently an absolute majority for that so redoing the vote might be a better idea. I'd be very wary of enforcing something as major as a pre-sim when only 11 or 12 owners want to go that route.

Ben E Lou · 11-29-2006, 05:53 AM

Clearly without a majority, there needs to be a run-off between the top two.

RedKingGold · 11-29-2006, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Clearly without a majority, there needs to be a run-off between the top two.

But I see a majority where choosing a draft (with 18 votes) is beating pre-sim (with 11)

Ben E Lou · 11-29-2006, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

But I see a majority where choosing a draft (with 18 votes) is beating pre-sim (with 11)

That's a pretty big assumption. We'd need to let people change their votes if we're deciding to lump those together. My vote is currently tallied in the live draft section, but I wouldn't have voted that way had it been a vote to run the risk of a preference draft. {shrug}

wade moore · 11-29-2006, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkyDog

That's a pretty big assumption. We'd need to let people change their votes if we're deciding to lump those together. My vote is currently tallied in the live draft section, but I wouldn't have voted that way had it been a vote to run the risk of a preference draft. {shrug}

But I think this is what I'm saying when I say maybe we re-vote with checkbox voting? I think there are some that would want pre-sim or live draft LONG before they wanted a pref draft and some that would want pref draft or live draft LONG before pre-sim. I think lumping the 3 together and having such a close vote shows that this voting method didn't give us a good picture. I think if we just chop one out because it has the fewest votes (which at this point is going to be like 1 or 2 less votes than the one above it) that we may be doing a disservice.

As you and I just said in chat, I think this provides a situation where people choose the "lesser of 2 evils" that are leading rather than their true choice.

Ben E Lou · 11-29-2006, 06:36 AM

OK. Good points all around. Let's see if a "checkbox" vote like the one for league name might work better.

View Poll Results: How would you prefer to start the league?
Preference Draft.	9	31.03%
"Live" Draft	9	31.03%
Presim For History, and start in the staff hiring stage.	11	37.93%
Voters: 29. You may not vote on this poll

11-28-2006, 06:03 AM	#2
3ric College Starter Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Sweden	Presim. I'm not very interested in doing a live dispersal draft, and the prospect of starting in the offseason with 15-20 years of history is very appealing to me. __________________ San Diego Chargers (HFL) - Lappland Reindeers (WOOF) - Gothenburg Giants (IHOF) Indiana: A TCY VC - year 2044 - the longest running dynasty ever on FOFC!

11-28-2006, 07:27 AM	#6
MIJB#19 Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Maassluis, Zuid-Holland, Netherlands	The preference draft option is the least appealing to me. __________________ * 2005 Golden Scribe winner for best FOF Dynasty about IHOF's Maassluis Merchantmen * Former GM of GEFL's Houston Oilers and WOOF's Curacao Cocktail

11-28-2006, 07:33 AM	#7
Icy Pro Starter Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Toledo - Spain	Presim For History, and start in the staff hiring stage. else Preference Draft. __________________

11-28-2006, 09:07 AM	#10
VPI97 Hokie, Hokie, Hokie, Hi Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Kennesaw, GA	I really dislike the idea of having no control over your roster. __________________ CT & Jivin - "Surprisingly Entertaining"

11-28-2006, 06:13 AM	#3
Narcizo Pro Rookie Join Date: Jan 2006	I get wet at the prospect of being able to see exactly where in the draft each player was picked and being able to judge players on performance as well as scouted ratings right from the start.

11-28-2006, 06:41 AM	#5
Narcizo Pro Rookie Join Date: Jan 2006	Almost literally.

11-28-2006, 07:39 AM	#8
miked College Starter Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: The Dirty	Voted for presim. We did this in one of our OOTP leagues and it's pretty cool for historical perspective. Also, removes the randomness of the preference draft.

11-28-2006, 10:08 AM	#11
cartman Death Herald Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Le stelle la notte sono grandi e luminose nel cuore profondo del Texas	My preference is for a live draft, but I realize the almost impossible logistical task it would be. __________________ Thinkin' of a master plan 'Cuz ain't nuthin' but sweat inside my hand So I dig into my pocket, all my money is spent So I dig deeper but still comin' up with lint

11-28-2006, 10:13 AM	#12
Emiliano College Prospect Join Date: May 2004 Location: Nuremberg, Germany	#3 for me. As alternative, preference draft. __________________ Xbox Live&PSN: Emiliano81 GM of the Rome Gladiators in the WOOF

11-28-2006, 11:22 AM	#14
gstelmack Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Cary, NC	SkyDog, if it's not too late to change my vote, I'd rather switch from Pre-Sim to Preference Draft. The more I think about it, and the more I look over the post in the other thread about the league state after a while, the more convinced I become that a bit of history is not worth getting rid of all the level playing field benefits. I don't like giving up control over my stadium and the option to build a new one quickly, I don't like that some may end up with a worse stadium through this, and I don't like that the AI will determine who has had losing seasons and thus is worse off economically and fan-support-wise than others. I think the level playing field for the start is more important than the history. We should build the history as we go. __________________ -- Greg -- Author of various FOF utilities

11-28-2006, 11:27 AM	#15
RedKingGold College Starter Join Date: Oct 2002	I'm surprised that live draft has not received more votes. As MIJB has stated, we can do a live draft for the first 25-30 rounds then make a rule that all owners have to select via preference list (removing the right to make live picks). Happiest of both worlds as owners can draft their starters and have control over their team and the draft itself would not go over two-to-three weeks.

11-28-2006, 11:30 AM	#16
gstelmack Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Cary, NC	That assumes no one has to take vacation during the draft and so either has to set a long list or go with AI selections. I think the Preference Draft with Level Economics is the most "fair" start for everyone in the league. __________________ -- Greg -- Author of various FOF utilities

11-28-2006, 12:19 PM	#25
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	jinx

11-28-2006, 12:48 PM	#28
RedKingGold College Starter Join Date: Oct 2002	I definitely all for a live draft. I'd like to develop our own history, not the AI's.

11-28-2006, 04:50 PM	#34
Ben E Lou Morgado's Favorite Forum Fascist Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Greensboro, NC	The thing is, I know I would have voted differently had it been a pure "draft vs. presim" vote. I would have remained firmly in the presim camp, so as not to run the risk of a preference draft, so you can't just add the two "draft" camps up and conclude anything. I'm solidly in the 53-player draft camp now, having thought through all of the scenarios a bit more. __________________ The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'!

11-28-2006, 07:41 PM	#36
Celeval Pro Starter Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Cary, NC, USA	I haven't voted because I'll do any of them.

11-29-2006, 05:53 AM	#39
Ben E Lou Morgado's Favorite Forum Fascist Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Greensboro, NC	Clearly without a majority, there needs to be a run-off between the top two. __________________ The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'!

11-29-2006, 06:36 AM	#43
Ben E Lou Morgado's Favorite Forum Fascist Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Greensboro, NC	OK. Good points all around. Let's see if a "checkbox" vote like the one for league name might work better. __________________ The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'!

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