MULTIPLE-OPTION POLL ON HOW TO START THE LEAGUE

[Ben E Lou]

The first vote was too close. Please vote for ALL methods of starting the league that are agreeable to you. Hopefully, this will narrow us down to the top two options. If not, the next step that has been suggested is a 3-2-1 points vote.

[RedKingGold]

Firmly in the camp of the live draft.

[Northwood_DK]

My preference list look like this.

1) "Live" Draft - 3 points
2) Preference Draft - 2 poinst
3) Presim - 1 point

[Ben E Lou]

Call me the Flip-Flopper. I'm really having a hard time deciding what I prefer, so I'm going to mull this one over a bit more. Right now, here are my thoughts on each:

PREFERENCE DRAFT

PRO
--Could do it before Christmas, giving nearly two weeks where some of us have lots of free time. I'm not traveling, and am off from 12/22 to 1/2, and only have guests in town for four days. I know I'd be able to do a pretty in-depth division-by-division preview prior to the first season if I had my team in place by the holidays.
--Least "headache" option of the three. No waiting on people to draft. Turn in the sim, get my team back.

CON
--This option feels in some ways as random as a pre-sim, since you don't know how others will set their preferences. If I'm among a bunch of people who go high on QB, for example, will I end up drafting a 45/45 guy if I get, say, the 25th pick in round 1?

LIVE DRAFT

PRO
--Most control over who is picked for things like affinities, getting the right players for offensive and defensive philosophies, etc.

CON
--I wonder if I'd end up losing some of that control due to my pick coming up while I'm at work or asleep.

UNKNOWN
--With holidays coming up, is it possible that we'd have to postpone the league start due to people being unable to draft? OR, since we're already at 31, is it possible that we could start this next week, and finish it before the holidays, thereby kicking the article-writing into high gear for the holidays?

PRESIM

Lots of pros and cons already mentioned in MIJB's initial thread about this idea. The ones I keep thinking about are...

PRO
--Since ratings are less reliable in this version, having stats would help with initial player evaluation.
--I like the idea of starting in the Coach Hiring stage.

CON
--Lose most of the pluses of the level economic playing field feature.
--Potential for uneven roster quality from the start.

UNKNOWN
--Is it really a viable option for the commish to step in during the last few seasons of the sim and get the turfs upgraded.

[Narcizo]

My preference
1. Pre-sim
2. Preference
3. Live

[Northwood_DK]

On the Con-list for the pre sim you need to add this.

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...ad.php?t=54715
It looks like the game still has some AI roster managing problems. I know Jim will get this fixed but will we have the time to test the roster building AI enough to fell safe to trust it to do a good job for our league?

[Narcizo]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

If I'm among a bunch of people who go high on QB, for example, will I end up drafting a 45/45 guy if I get, say, the 25th pick in round 1?

I know this is just a hypothetical question to make a point but I'll answer it anyway, because it makes me feel smart. I think the experience from WAFL is that, no, you won't. I was party to the setting up of one preference list where we tried every trick we could think of to get the AI to pick a quarterback first, and still didn't get one until the 5th round, but who was still pretty good, probably the 10th or so best QB out there in terms of current and about 7th best for potential.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Northwood_DK

On the Con-list for the pre sim you need to add this.

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...ad.php?t=54715
It looks like the game still has some AI roster managing problems. I know Jim will get this fixed but will we have the time to test the roster building AI enough to fell safe to trust it to do a good job for our league?

I haven't seen that happen other than in the first 4-7 years...

[Icy]

Presim or preference draft for me, but i must admit i don't care a lot about my initial team level, i enjoy way more rebuilding crap teams than winning it all with the best team. For me the winning satisfaction comes from being able to win a SB after a few seasons starting with a crap team.

[QuikSand]

If this becomes difficult to resolve amicably among the current options, I have another thought. It's quite a bit more hands-on, but with some effort, it is probably something that we could accomplish.

Run a QuikSim of whatever number of seasons people like to give the league some history, with a plan that our league will actually begin in year X. Send in exports for each team at the end of year X-2, where each team essentially cleans out its entire roster and goes empty cupboard for the following season. For year X-1, each team will field a roster of players on one-year contracts only, and at the end of year X-1, any players with fewer than 4 years of experience will be cut.

Year X begins, we take over our teams at the start of staff hiring, and every team will begin with essentially an empty roster and a full salary cap. Each team gets a fair shot at every veteran player through the free agent process, and then we will have the rookie draft, which would be the only unequalized part of the whole plan.

That is admittdely a bit more work on the front end than any other suggestion out there, but it's one way to get us to a point where (1) there is a stat history for players and the league, (2) each manager gets control over the type of players he pursues, and (3) we avoid the full 53-round draft, which I presume some people object to on grounds of time investment.

[Northwood_DK]

If this is actually possible to pull off I like the idea very much.

[CraigSca]

Wow, that is kinda cool. They'll refer to it as the Mass Auction of 2015!

[RedKingGold]

And we're all tied at 8

[Narcizo]

Maybe the league should be called "The League of Undecided Gentlemen".

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by Narcizo

Maybe the league should be called "The League of Undecided Gentlemen".

The LUG. Has a nice ring to it.

[MIJB#19]

my order would be:
1 - 'live' draft
2 - pre-sim
3 - preference draft

I don't see the latter as a serious option if the 'live' draft is an option. The two weeks spent on draftig won't be a waste and avoid people getting stuck with rosters that far from resemble what they wanted with their settings (even if they set the sliders in the right directions).

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

(even if they set the sliders in the right directions).

[3ric]

I like QS' suggestion, it's the time you have to spend doing a 53-round draft I strongly object to.
I want a team (almost) right now, empty roster or not.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

If this becomes difficult to resolve amicably among the current options, I have another thought. It's quite a bit more hands-on, but with some effort, it is probably something that we could accomplish.

Run a QuikSim of whatever number of seasons people like to give the league some history, with a plan that our league will actually begin in year X. Send in exports for each team at the end of year X-2, where each team essentially cleans out its entire roster and goes empty cupboard for the following season. For year X-1, each team will field a roster of players on one-year contracts only, and at the end of year X-1, any players with fewer than 4 years of experience will be cut.

Year X begins, we take over our teams at the start of staff hiring, and every team will begin with essentially an empty roster and a full salary cap. Each team gets a fair shot at every veteran player through the free agent process, and then we will have the rookie draft, which would be the only unequalized part of the whole plan.

That is admittdely a bit more work on the front end than any other suggestion out there, but it's one way to get us to a point where (1) there is a stat history for players and the league, (2) each manager gets control over the type of players he pursues, and (3) we avoid the full 53-round draft, which I presume some people object to on grounds of time investment.

I like a lot of things about this.

However, what I don't like is that it creates a cluster in FA that I'm not sure that I like. I'm not sure that I like a 32 team bidding free for all on the entire talent pool.

If we were to do something like this, I think I'd want to fashion some sort of manual 53-round (or the 22+ round) dispersal draft.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by 3ric

I like QS' suggestion, it's the time you have to spend doing a 53-round draft I strongly object to.
I want a team (almost) right now, empty roster or not.

Who says it has to be a 53-round draft? We did about 20-25 in the GEFL (so enough to get your starters). I liked that very much (not just because of my success there). It gives a good feel for building the core of your own team.

QS' idea sounds interesting as well. For the draft, we could have the commish trade all the 2nd through 7th round picks to create the reverse order of the 'randomized' first round to create a drafting order that's fairer than the 'traditional' serpentine and worst-first systems. (1-2-3-4, 4-3-2-1, 4-3-2-1, 4-3-2-1, etc. Examples: when you pick 1st in round 1, you pick 32nd in rounds 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7; when you pick 24th in round 1, you pick 9th in rounds 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7).

[Emiliano]

Originally Posted by Icy

Presim or preference draft for me, but i must admit i don't care a lot about my initial team level, i enjoy way more rebuilding crap teams than winning it all with the best team. For me the winning satisfaction comes from being able to win a SB after a few seasons starting with a crap team.

As always, my Spanish alter-ego summarizes perfectly my thoughts.

[Dutch]

I think that's a fascinating option, QS.

Personally, I'm not for pre-simming at all, but I'm not hard-fast against it either. But if we did pre-sim, this is just the sort of interesting concept that puts the control back into the hands of the owners. I like it (and another reason I'm glad you accepted to be involved).

The only downside that I can see right off the bat is that this sort of play hasn't been tested. What if 4 teams DOMINATE in free agency and know how to work the system best? Would they be in a position to dictate control of (at least their divisions) for five, six, or eight seasons? That would be a fun factor issue as opposed to a survival of the fittest issue.

[3ric]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

Who says it has to be a 53-round draft? We did about 20-25 in the GEFL (so enough to get your starters). I liked that very much (not just because of my success there). It gives a good feel for building the core of your own team.

Good point about not having to be 53 rounds (I agree), but even with a quick draft we'll end up with a full roster and no off-season, I just prefer building up the team through free agency and the college draft. It just doesn't matter to me if it's an empty cupboard or the usual 30-40 players returning from last season... that's why I'm in the pre-sim camp, but QS' solution is a very good compromise.

[VPI97]

Before we decide on anything, I think it would be wise to hear Jim chime in on any sort of 'pre-sim' methodology. When I start reading things like "We could do this" and "We could do that" in regards to starting a league by a non-standard process, I'd rather be certain that it's not going to cause any unforseen problems down the road before jumping on the bandwagon.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by VPI97

Before we decide on anything, I think it would be wise to hear Jim chime in on any sort of 'pre-sim' methodology. When I start reading things like "We could do this" and "We could do that" in regards to starting a league by a non-standard process, I'd rather be certain that it's not going to cause any unforseen problems down the road before jumping on the bandwagon.

A-men

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by VPI97

Before we decide on anything, I think it would be wise to hear Jim chime in on any sort of 'pre-sim' methodology. When I start reading things like "We could do this" and "We could do that" in regards to starting a league by a non-standard process, I'd rather be certain that it's not going to cause any unforseen problems down the road before jumping on the bandwagon.

I definitely agree with you if we're going down the path of what Quik has said.

As for QuikSimming and just taking over teams as they are, I'm not sure that I understand how there's any potential risk there that is different from SP, and many people do this in SP.

I'm not saying that it would hurt to ask him, but I just really don't see any risk there.

[primelord]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

If this becomes difficult to resolve amicably among the current options, I have another thought. It's quite a bit more hands-on, but with some effort, it is probably something that we could accomplish.

Run a QuikSim of whatever number of seasons people like to give the league some history, with a plan that our league will actually begin in year X. Send in exports for each team at the end of year X-2, where each team essentially cleans out its entire roster and goes empty cupboard for the following season. For year X-1, each team will field a roster of players on one-year contracts only, and at the end of year X-1, any players with fewer than 4 years of experience will be cut.

Year X begins, we take over our teams at the start of staff hiring, and every team will begin with essentially an empty roster and a full salary cap. Each team gets a fair shot at every veteran player through the free agent process, and then we will have the rookie draft, which would be the only unequalized part of the whole plan.

That is admittdely a bit more work on the front end than any other suggestion out there, but it's one way to get us to a point where (1) there is a stat history for players and the league, (2) each manager gets control over the type of players he pursues, and (3) we avoid the full 53-round draft, which I presume some people object to on grounds of time investment.

With this plan wouldn't the teams that cut the players be unable to resign them? Also with ratings like loyalty and Wants Winner etc I am not certain every team actually would have a completely equal chance at every player.

Not saying that either of these issues are show stoppers, but just trying to think everything through.

[Celeval]

The mass-release is an interesting thought, but I'd prefer to stick with one of the more standard options.

[Ben E Lou]

In theory, I LOVE Quik's idea! (I wish FOF had the OOTP option of releasing all players into the FA pool at any point, and then drafting.) However, there's one thing that I think might be a sticking point for many: the imbalance in lost cap room seems like it would be greater than the imbalance created even with just a straight quick-sim. In 2018 in a test league, 1(1) signs a 5-year deal with a $32.3M bonus, and 1(32) signs a 4-year deal with a $4.64M bonus. Overall, the team with the 1st pick doled out $37.3M in bonus money, while the team with the 32nd pick spent less than $9M. (Salary cap is $161.2M).

[Ben E Lou]

OK. Seriously, I'm at a loss here as to how to resolve this. I don't think a 3-2-1 vote is going to be any better.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

OK. Seriously, I'm at a loss here as to how to resolve this. I don't think a 3-2-1 vote is going to be any better.

Straws?

I all honesty, I'm seeing more uncertainty and potential problems leading from pre-simming history (even with Quik's idea). So, I'm kind of more getting into the camp that pre-simming history is not worth the potential headaches it might cause for commish and owners alike.

[gstelmack]

Since it's even split, why don't we pick a commish and let them decide which way it starts (as a perk for being commish)?

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Since it's even split, why don't we pick a commish and let them decide which way it starts (as a perk for being commish)?

The good news is that, according to the poll, whatever way we go, a majority of the people would be "agreeable."

[stevew]

Quik's idea is great, although i think the loyalty things may be way too tough to deal with.


I just hate that in a live or preference draft, the initial league files may not have enough "average" type qb's, and unless you get one of the top 10 picks, you're starting some 20/43ish scrub, and may as well tank a whole year.

[wade moore]

Uh-oh, he used the "T"-Word.

[stevew]

Poor choice of words, maybe. I just remember sitting in an online league where we drafted, and by the time I picked in the first, the best QB left was 20/50. In any kind of mature league you would probably be able to find a 40/40ish type or something. I just thought that situation seemed helpless....to be going into a season with a loser at QB and praying that you could go .500 with the douchebag QB.

[Narcizo]

I can't say I'm very keen on the league having a level playing field in terms of talent. It just seems far too manufactured that everyone has a couple of super-stud players, 3 or so stud players etc etc. I think it's different having a level economic field but a live draft just doesn't seem likely to provide anything approaching a realistic league dynamic. There should be crap teams and great teams, that's part of what makes football interesting.

[Daimyo]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

. . . we take over our teams at the start of staff hiring, and every team will begin with essentially an empty roster and a full salary cap. Each team gets a fair shot at every veteran player through the free agent process, and then we will have the rookie draft, which would be the only unequalized part of the whole plan. . . .

This is by far my favorite option, but the draft seems a pretty big negative. Perhaps the commish could run the draft such that the lowest rated players are picked leaving the good draftees to enter late FA where everyone would have equal opportunity to sign them? Failing that, maybe we could not allow signing draftees in the first year so that they all re-enter the next year...

[Daimyo]

DOLA, I voted for live draft above under the assumption we'd have a nice tool similar to what VPI/Cuervo produced for IHOF/FOFL/etc. Without a nice tool the live draft option loses most of its luster... the FOFL started with a live draft that IMO sucked a lot of enjoyment due to the way it was handled and the amount of time it took.

[primelord]

Originally Posted by Narcizo

I can't say I'm very keen on the league having a level playing field in terms of talent. It just seems far too manufactured that everyone has a couple of super-stud players, 3 or so stud players etc etc. I think it's different having a level economic field but a live draft just doesn't seem likely to provide anything approaching a realistic league dynamic. There should be crap teams and great teams, that's part of what makes football interesting.

A live draft doesn't mean there aren't going to be good and bad teams. Again we drafted teams live in GEFL and there were plenty of rotten teams and good teams. Not to mention the good teams were generally put together by some of the people who have proven to be some of the better GMs.

So it isn't like there isn't any skill involved with drafting a teamfrom scratch. I really can't see how giving everyone a fair shot to build a winner from the start is a bad thing.

[Narcizo]

Well, apart from the fact that I'm not sure everyone will get a fair shot at building a winner, not much. There's always going to be issues that means that people aren't going to be able to devote as much time to a live draft as others. Of course, the same can be said over the course of the league as well, but people base their willingness to participate in a league on whether they believe they have the time to do just that. Not whether they have multiple hours to spend over a limited period of time setting preference lists to even start the league. Add in the fact that setting preference lists is never going to be as successful as picking live then I think it's fair to say that some people aren't going to have quite as fair a shot at it as others.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by stevew

Poor choice of words, maybe. I just remember sitting in an online league where we drafted, and by the time I picked in the first, the best QB left was 20/50. In any kind of mature league you would probably be able to find a 40/40ish type or something. I just thought that situation seemed helpless....to be going into a season with a loser at QB and praying that you could go .500 with the douchebag QB.

I think your basing this assumption on FOF2K4. Because the relative skill of quarterbacks are lower in FOF2K7, there are a lot more scum QB's than good ones.

In the WAFL, a lot of owners were complaining about their crappy QB's when using the preference list. In all honesty, I think that's just a new symptom of the new game.

However, that should be a good thing. I have seen teams win in ways other than with a stud QB in my single player careers thus far.

[Ben E Lou]

PM sent to the three who haven't voted.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

PM sent to the three who haven't voted.

Down to two.

[miked]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

I think your basing this assumption on FOF2K4. Because the relative skill of quarterbacks are lower in FOF2K7, there are a lot more scum QB's than good ones.

In the WAFL, a lot of owners were complaining about their crappy QB's when using the preference list. In all honesty, I think that's just a new symptom of the new game.

However, that should be a good thing. I have seen teams win in ways other than with a stud QB in my single player careers thus far.

I put my sliders way up for QBs on my few preference drafts since I bought the game. I have yet to land a QB with a current of 25. Last night I ended up with 18/52 and they didn't select him until the 4th or 5th round. I'm all for a live draft now

[Northwood_DK]

Originally Posted by miked

I put my sliders way up for QBs on my few preference drafts since I bought the game. I have yet to land a QB with a current of 25. Last night I ended up with 18/52 and they didn't select him until the 4th or 5th round. I'm all for a live draft now

I have given up completely on testing the preference draft. Yes I have run 25-30 different single players preference drafts now and got a pretty good idea how put together a good team against the AI. But if I can use that information and will get the same result against 31 other “live” GMs is another question.

[Narcizo]

Originally Posted by Northwood_DK

Yes I have run 25-30 different single players preference drafts now and got a pretty good idea how put together a good team against the AI.

[primelord]

Originally Posted by Narcizo

Well, apart from the fact that I'm not sure everyone will get a fair shot at building a winner, not much. There's always going to be issues that means that people aren't going to be able to devote as much time to a live draft as others. Of course, the same can be said over the course of the league as well, but people base their willingness to participate in a league on whether they believe they have the time to do just that. Not whether they have multiple hours to spend over a limited period of time setting preference lists to even start the league. Add in the fact that setting preference lists is never going to be as successful as picking live then I think it's fair to say that some people aren't going to have quite as fair a shot at it as others.

I am confused here. That is not the point you were making before, nor the point I was addressing. You seemed to be concerned that a live draft would too evenly distribute the talent across the teams and that you thought there should be both good and bad teams right from the start. I was pointing out that a live draft still leads to that result.

If your concern with a live draft is just that you don't think you will have enough time to devote to it I can certainly understand that.

[Narcizo]

Well, I was sorting of replying to this

So it isn't like there isn't any skill involved with drafting a teamfrom scratch. I really can't see how giving everyone a fair shot to build a winner from the start is a bad thing

Which didn't really seem to have much to do with my first point either. Sorry for not quoting for clarity. I'd (tacitly) accepted your first point. I should probably accepted it more, erm, untacitly.

[Ben E Lou]

31 votes in, and if I had to guess, based on the impending move, I would predict that Jim's vote would leave us all tied up. This is amazing. I do, however, have another idea that MIGHT eliminate one option. Yeah, another poll is coming.