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Old 07-21-2005, 10:45 AM   #1
WSUCougar
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Ghost Hunters

Does anyone ever watch this show? They had a mini-marathon on SciFi Channel last night, so I flipped back and forth between that and the Cardinal game. I'd seen the show a couple times before around Halloween. Not sure if it's always the same crew, but these are well-equipped paranormal investigators from New England who check out supposedly-haunted places. It has an air of believability to it - there is plenty of skepticism and feet-on-the-ground analysis of things, but there are a couple members of the team that are too ditsy/goofy for my taste.

Anyway, on one episode last night they investigated the house of a young guy who claimed he and others had heard voices and experienced feelings of being watched, etc., the usual haunted house stuff. Seemed like the guy was shooting pretty straight...it was his family's house, and the evidence suggested that his grandparents might be the spirits (if there were any) present.

The crew comes in, does all their technical recording and checking, and then analyzes what they got. Nothing visual, a few things that meant little (like these metallic rods that supposedly cross when spirits or energy is present)...but then they had two recordings of things that were pretty damn creepy. One sounded like whispers but was unintelligible...the second one was a low, slow voice saying what sounded like "I...miss...Adam" which is the name of the young guy who lives there! Spooky shit.

Don't know if it's all smoke and mirrors or what, but it creeped us out pretty good.
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Old 07-21-2005, 10:49 AM   #2
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we're here to believe you.

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Old 07-21-2005, 10:49 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WSUCougar
Does anyone ever watch this show? They had a mini-marathon on SciFi Channel last night, so I flipped back and forth between that and the Cardinal game. I'd seen the show a couple times before around Halloween. Not sure if it's always the same crew, but these are well-equipped paranormal investigators from New England who check out supposedly-haunted places. It has an air of believability to it - there is plenty of skepticism and feet-on-the-ground analysis of things, but there are a couple members of the team that are too ditsy/goofy for my taste.

Anyway, on one episode last night they investigated the house of a young guy who claimed he and others had heard voices and experienced feelings of being watched, etc., the usual haunted house stuff. Seemed like the guy was shooting pretty straight...it was his family's house, and the evidence suggested that his grandparents might be the spirits (if there were any) present.

The crew comes in, does all their technical recording and checking, and then analyzes what they got. Nothing visual, a few things that meant little (like these metallic rods that supposedly cross when spirits or energy is present)...but then they had two recordings of things that were pretty damn creepy. One sounded like whispers but was unintelligible...the second one was a low, slow voice saying what sounded like "I...miss...Adam" which is the name of the young guy who lives there! Spooky shit.

Don't know if it's all smoke and mirrors or what, but it creeped us out pretty good.

Visit http://www.ghostweb.com

It's a slight hobby of mine, not something full blown, but there is a group of us here that like to ghost hunt, we have had some messed up experiences when we went out.
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Old 07-21-2005, 10:55 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by indoorsoccersim
It's a slight hobby of mine, not something full blown, but there is a group of us here that like to ghost hunt, we have had some messed up experiences when we went out.
Tell! Tell!
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Old 07-21-2005, 11:14 AM   #5
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October night, it's kind of cool outside, and we head to an older cemetery in a small town. There are 4 of us there, me, my wife, my friend Keli and his wife Christy. We pull up, getting out of our cars, we start to move around behind our car.


Immediately the temperature fell, we are not talking like one or two degrees, but close to a 15 to 20 degree drop. At this time, my wife turns to me and says, “I am not getting a good feeling about this. We are definitely not wanted here.”



I proceed to blow it off, and start to head towards the cemetery with Keli, I am on the passenger side of the car when the temperature gets even colder, probably another five degrees. My wife has gotten back into the car, and is waiting for us, she wasn’t about to piss anyone or anything off.

At this time, our car alarm goes off, and I get upset, thinking the wife is doing it to get us out of the area. I move to the door, and open it, telling her to knock it off. I do not notice the look on her face at this time.


I move back around the car, to enter into the cemetery again, and the car alarm goes of. I storm back to the car open the door, and plainly state “Knock it off, we are going to get into trouble if you keep it up.” And shut the door and move to go into the cemetery again.

At this time, the car alarm goes off for the 3rd time, and I run to her car door, rip the door open, my wife is white as a sheet, and has the keys with the alarm in her hand. She is stammering that she hasn’t touched the alarm at all. And that it goes off, anytime we began to move onto cemetery property.

I tell her it’s not funny, and take the keys from her. And begin to move towards the cemetery, as I walk onto the property, my car alarm goes off again. It’s at this point, I realize my wife wasn’t messing around with me, and realize, we were truly not wanted there. Needless to say, we left immediately.
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Old 07-21-2005, 11:21 AM   #6
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The other freaky thing was visiting a house that was supposed to be haunted, and having the men there, have actual scratch marks appear on their bodies, as if nails were raked across them.

I think me still might have some pictures of the ones that appeared on my ribs and arm.

That one freaked me out. And the the rumour was, the ghost was that of an old prostitute that was murdered, and she only attacked men.
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Old 07-21-2005, 11:42 AM   #7
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My wife loves that show.

soccersim, that's some freaky stuff. Thanks for sharing.
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Old 07-21-2005, 12:12 PM   #8
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I Don't believe in ghosts, but I think creepy shows are kewl.
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Old 07-21-2005, 12:21 PM   #9
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BOO!
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Old 07-21-2005, 12:52 PM   #10
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BOO!

Dammit rkmsuf, don't do that.
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Old 07-21-2005, 12:56 PM   #11
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That's a bad horror movie scene where I'd be yelling at the woman for staying back while the rest go forward.
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Old 07-21-2005, 01:26 PM   #12
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Thats good stuff Dennis. I like to watch it, I believe it, and I would probably be scared out of my wits if I encountered it.

I was in a hotel late on the road, and really should have been asleep. That show came on it was dealing with some of the most aggressive ghosts that they have encountered. I wanted to watch it, but was afraid that I might not sleep or sleep poorly if I did. I had to get up in about 4 hours anyway.
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Old 07-21-2005, 02:02 PM   #13
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I once had some bad Guacamole and I saw the ghost of Gerald Ford. Which is odd, because he is not dead, at least as far as we can tell.
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Old 07-21-2005, 02:15 PM   #14
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Voice of Producer: Good, good.. Next.

Tom Brokaw: Alright. [ graphic of Gerald Ford and a commuter plane ] "Stunning news from Michigan, as former President Gerald Ford was chopped into little bits by the propeller of a commuter plane."

Voice of Producer: Good. One take.

Tom Brokaw: Alright, we got it?

Voice of Producer: No. We've got "eaten by wolves".

Tom Brokaw: What? Now, come on!

Voice of Producer: Just read it!

Tom Brokaw: Gerald Ford isn't gonna be eaten by wolves!

Voice of Producer: Taft was.

Tom Brokaw: Really? Taft?

Voice of Producer: Uh.. yeah.

Tom Brokaw: Alright, alright.. [ graphic of Ford surrounded by a pair of wolves ] "Tragedy today, as former President Gerald Ford was eaten by wolves. He was delicious." Now.. now, that's just superfluous, you know?

Voice of Producer: It's a former President, Tom. What do you say - he's not delicious?

Tom Brokaw: Alright, fine.. what's next?

Voice of Producer: The double story.

Tom Brokaw: Alright. [ graphic of Ford and map of France ] "A fireball destroyed France today, and Gerald Ford is dead." Now, what are the odds of that?

Voice of Producer: Fine. We'll get Stone Phillips to do it. You know, I'm sure Stone Phillips would be thrilled to break a story like that!

Tom Brokaw: Alright. Let's keep moving.. [ graphic of Ford and the corpse of Richard Nixon ] "Stunning news from Yorba Linda today, as Richard Nixon's corpse climbed out of his grave and strangled Gerald For to death."

Voice of Producer: Excellent.

Tom Brokaw: Alright. [ graphic of Ford and circus lion ] "Gerald Ford was mauled senselessly by a circus lion in a convenience store."

Voice of Producer: Good. Next.

Tom Brokaw: Alright. "Gerald Ford is dead today, and I'm gay." Now, wait a minute!

Voice of Producer: What? That'd be a huge story - Ford dying, and you coming out!

Tom Brokaw: But I'm not gay!

Voice of Producer: Today you're not gay, you know.. but then one day you wake up, you like men, and Gerald Ford dies, and we're screwed. Everyone's hearing about it from Dan Rather!

Tom Brokaw: Alright, alright.. what's this for?

[ graphic of Gerald Ford and the Zimbabwee flag appears ]

Voice of Producer: Alright, this one's for if we're invaded by Zimbabwee.

Tom Brokaw: Would I still be the anchor if Zimbabwee invaded us?

Voice of Producer: Yeah.. if you break the Gerald Ford story, you will..

Tom Brokaw: Alright. "Hola bambe, hungala dimba Gerald Ford.. *click* *click* *click* *click* ..hola bambe, allah bumba bubba hulla humba hey."

Voice of Producer: Very nice. Very nice. A little sadder, please.

Tom Brokaw: Alright, alright.. [ sadly ] "Hola bambe, hungala dimba Gerald Ford.. *click* *click* ..hola bambe.."
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Old 07-21-2005, 02:34 PM   #15
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I've watched and enjoyed the entire 1st season of Ghosthunters and can't wait for Season 2 to begin next week. Also caught parts of the marathon yesterday.
The season finale with Adam was pretty good but my favorite episode was the armory one where the sound guy got hit with his sound bag.

I also like how the TAPS guys go into a situation trying to disprove paranormal activity because if you're trying to prove it you might take something small like an orb sighting and turn it into a "OMG, this house is haunted!!!"
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Old 07-21-2005, 03:09 PM   #16
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I've really enjoyed watching the show as well. I missed the marathon and I haven't seen them all, but the one that spooked me was in the lighthouse with the chair moving. Weird stuff...
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Old 07-21-2005, 03:41 PM   #17
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Wait until you see the one with the haunted armory, where a ghost knocks the sound guy on his ass.
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Old 07-29-2005, 06:28 AM   #18
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Just watched the 2nd season premier. One of the better episodes they've had, although I really wish SciFi would stop editing in those "ghost" images.

I think it was the first time they've left the north east. Good to see them get a new building and a new van. I wondered who paid for it, them, SciFi, or Roto rooter. Shame Brian is this close from being let go and it was cool to see Steve the pimp.

I didn't think anything of the shadow at the door. It could have been a guest or a cameraman, or someone seeing the cameras and deciding to investigate on their own. The thermal reading outside was pretty cool and the lamp moving I'm not to sure of. I mean it does move but I wouldn't chock that up to paranormal activity.
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Old 07-29-2005, 05:01 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by TazFTW
Just watched the 2nd season premier. One of the better episodes they've had, although I really wish SciFi would stop editing in those "ghost" images.

I think it was the first time they've left the north east. Good to see them get a new building and a new van. I wondered who paid for it, them, SciFi, or Roto rooter. Shame Brian is this close from being let go and it was cool to see Steve the pimp.

I didn't think anything of the shadow at the door. It could have been a guest or a cameraman, or someone seeing the cameras and deciding to investigate on their own. The thermal reading outside was pretty cool and the lamp moving I'm not to sure of. I mean it does move but I wouldn't chock that up to paranormal activity.

I love the show, but I was a bit disappointed by last night's episode. I didn't see anything that couldn't be explain, and stuff like the lamp moving was so easy fake, that it was a little cheesy.

The whole Brian thing is silly too. I get the distinct feeling that that angle is totally a throw-in to make it more "dramatic".

I still love the show, have it on my Tivo list, but I hope the episodes get better.
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Old 07-29-2005, 09:52 PM   #20
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But what about the thermal?




Its got heat in some places, transparency in others.

I did think they were pretty quick to call it a haunted. Maybe it was because The Myrtles has too much of a reputation.

As for the Brian thing, well they've be saying that one of the members leaves due to a personality conflict. Brian H is probably the red herring. I wonder if the other Brian still works with them.
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Old 10-06-2005, 04:01 PM   #21
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Anyone watch the Queen Mary episode? I sooooooo wanted the moving bed covers to be real. But no. Hoaxing bastards.
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Old 10-06-2005, 04:03 PM   #22
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Anyone watch the Queen Mary episode? I sooooooo wanted the moving bed covers to be real. But no. Hoaxing bastards.

Yeah, that really pissed me off. My wife and I think it was someone in the PR department of the ship.
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Old 10-06-2005, 04:12 PM   #23
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But at least the ship's "ghost tour" guide was a hottie...man alive.
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Old 10-06-2005, 04:14 PM   #24
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But at least the ship's "ghost tour" guide was a hottie...man alive.

Yeah, she was uber-hot. Nice cleavage too. Too bad she sounded like Michael Jackson on helium.
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Old 10-06-2005, 04:17 PM   #25
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BOO!

Don't forget the sequel, "Hey, There's a Spider on Your Back."
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Old 10-06-2005, 04:17 PM   #26
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LOOK, MICHAEL JACKSON!
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Old 10-06-2005, 04:25 PM   #27
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That is not funny!!! Now I won't be able to sleep, for fear that Michael Jackson is going to get me.
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Old 10-06-2005, 04:28 PM   #28
Anthony
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indoorsoccersim
October night, it's kind of cool outside, and we head to an older cemetery in a small town. There are 4 of us there, me, my wife, my friend Keli and his wife Christy. We pull up, getting out of our cars, we start to move around behind our car.


Immediately the temperature fell, we are not talking like one or two degrees, but close to a 15 to 20 degree drop. At this time, my wife turns to me and says, “I am not getting a good feeling about this. We are definitely not wanted here.”



I proceed to blow it off, and start to head towards the cemetery with Keli, I am on the passenger side of the car when the temperature gets even colder, probably another five degrees. My wife has gotten back into the car, and is waiting for us, she wasn’t about to piss anyone or anything off.

At this time, our car alarm goes off, and I get upset, thinking the wife is doing it to get us out of the area. I move to the door, and open it, telling her to knock it off. I do not notice the look on her face at this time.


I move back around the car, to enter into the cemetery again, and the car alarm goes of. I storm back to the car open the door, and plainly state “Knock it off, we are going to get into trouble if you keep it up.” And shut the door and move to go into the cemetery again.

At this time, the car alarm goes off for the 3rd time, and I run to her car door, rip the door open, my wife is white as a sheet, and has the keys with the alarm in her hand. She is stammering that she hasn’t touched the alarm at all. And that it goes off, anytime we began to move onto cemetery property.

I tell her it’s not funny, and take the keys from her. And begin to move towards the cemetery, as I walk onto the property, my car alarm goes off again. It’s at this point, I realize my wife wasn’t messing around with me, and realize, we were truly not wanted there. Needless to say, we left immediately.

so you really weren't ghost hunting. the point about hunting was to hope to catch something. you hightailed it outa there faster than a girl getting hit on by cthomer.
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Old 10-06-2005, 04:45 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic
so you really weren't ghost hunting. the point about hunting was to hope to catch something. you hightailed it outa there faster than a girl getting hit on by balldog.


Fixed
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Old 10-06-2005, 04:51 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by sachmo71
so you really weren't ghost hunting. the point about hunting was to hope to catch something. you hightailed it outa there faster than a dog getting hit in the balls by cthomer

double fixed it.
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Old 10-06-2005, 04:51 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic
so you really weren't ghost hunting. the point about hunting was to hope to catch something. you hightailed it outa there faster than a girl getting hit on by cthomer.

Trust me....at that point....we knew we were not wanted there...so we left........
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Old 10-06-2005, 09:35 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkmsuf
Voice of Producer: Good, good.. Next.

Tom Brokaw: Alright. [ graphic of Gerald Ford and a commuter plane ] "Stunning news from Michigan, as former President Gerald Ford was chopped into little bits by the propeller of a commuter plane."

Voice of Producer: Good. One take.

Tom Brokaw: Alright, we got it?

Voice of Producer: No. We've got "eaten by wolves".

Tom Brokaw: What? Now, come on!

Voice of Producer: Just read it!

Tom Brokaw: Gerald Ford isn't gonna be eaten by wolves!

Voice of Producer: Taft was.

Tom Brokaw: Really? Taft?

Voice of Producer: Uh.. yeah.

Tom Brokaw: Alright, alright.. [ graphic of Ford surrounded by a pair of wolves ] "Tragedy today, as former President Gerald Ford was eaten by wolves. He was delicious." Now.. now, that's just superfluous, you know?

Voice of Producer: It's a former President, Tom. What do you say - he's not delicious?

Tom Brokaw: Alright, fine.. what's next?

Voice of Producer: The double story.

Tom Brokaw: Alright. [ graphic of Ford and map of France ] "A fireball destroyed France today, and Gerald Ford is dead." Now, what are the odds of that?

Voice of Producer: Fine. We'll get Stone Phillips to do it. You know, I'm sure Stone Phillips would be thrilled to break a story like that!

Tom Brokaw: Alright. Let's keep moving.. [ graphic of Ford and the corpse of Richard Nixon ] "Stunning news from Yorba Linda today, as Richard Nixon's corpse climbed out of his grave and strangled Gerald For to death."

Voice of Producer: Excellent.

Tom Brokaw: Alright. [ graphic of Ford and circus lion ] "Gerald Ford was mauled senselessly by a circus lion in a convenience store."

Voice of Producer: Good. Next.

Tom Brokaw: Alright. "Gerald Ford is dead today, and I'm gay." Now, wait a minute!

Voice of Producer: What? That'd be a huge story - Ford dying, and you coming out!

Tom Brokaw: But I'm not gay!

Voice of Producer: Today you're not gay, you know.. but then one day you wake up, you like men, and Gerald Ford dies, and we're screwed. Everyone's hearing about it from Dan Rather!

Tom Brokaw: Alright, alright.. what's this for?

[ graphic of Gerald Ford and the Zimbabwee flag appears ]

Voice of Producer: Alright, this one's for if we're invaded by Zimbabwee.

Tom Brokaw: Would I still be the anchor if Zimbabwee invaded us?

Voice of Producer: Yeah.. if you break the Gerald Ford story, you will..

Tom Brokaw: Alright. "Hola bambe, hungala dimba Gerald Ford.. *click* *click* *click* *click* ..hola bambe, allah bumba bubba hulla humba hey."

Voice of Producer: Very nice. Very nice. A little sadder, please.

Tom Brokaw: Alright, alright.. [ sadly ] "Hola bambe, hungala dimba Gerald Ford.. *click* *click* ..hola bambe.."


HAHAHAAHAHAHA. That is hilarious. Please, please, PLEASE don't tell me that's Family Guy, because I might have to admit that it's funny....
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Old 10-06-2005, 10:48 PM   #33
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SNL skit.

if you've never seen, you're not getting the whole effect of the way Dana Carvey impersonated Brokaw saying "Gerald Ford", or should i say "ggger-Ald ffff-Hawd".

Last edited by Anthony : 10-06-2005 at 10:49 PM.
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Old 10-21-2005, 01:33 PM   #34
WSUCougar
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Anyone see the season finale episode with the basement morgue in Arkansas? What the hell was that on the thermal imaging camera?!?
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Old 10-21-2005, 02:00 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WSUCougar
Anyone see the season finale episode with the basement morgue in Arkansas? What the hell was that on the thermal imaging camera?!?

I saw it. That was their best evidence yet. It looked like a civil war-era soldier. Add in the laptop that moved and whatever that thermal imaging deal was with that medium and they obviously saved the best for last.
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Old 10-21-2005, 02:04 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by WSUCougar
Anyone see the season finale episode with the basement morgue in Arkansas? What the hell was that on the thermal imaging camera?!?


Spoiler warning, bitches!!!

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Old 10-21-2005, 02:23 PM   #37
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Spoiler warning, bitches!!!


Hmm. I guess you don't want me to tell you about the hot dog eating apparition that slimes Grant, then do you?
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Old 10-21-2005, 02:29 PM   #38
TazFTW
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spoiler (pics involved)

















I think it looks pretty cool. I guess it could be faked but it still looks pretty cool. I wonder why the '2' on the locker was hot.

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Old 10-21-2005, 02:33 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by WSUCougar
Anyone see the season finale episode with the basement morgue in Arkansas? What the hell was that on the thermal imaging camera?!?


I've been to that hotel and been on the tour down to those rooms. Very eerie place. I haven't seen the show yet (watching it on TIVO tonight), but I know there are several rooms that are sold out way in advance because they are active. A couple of rooms they basically guarantee that something will happen if you hang around. It's an extremely fun place if you ever get a chance to go there.
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Old 10-21-2005, 02:38 PM   #40
CamEdwards
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dammit! i keep forgetting this show is on. arrgh. I've been really getting interested in stuff like this too. Might have to order the 1st season on dvd. it's only $25 bucks for the 1st season.
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Old 10-21-2005, 02:55 PM   #41
scooper
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There is going to be a Ghost Hunters special on Halloween night. That might be interesting.
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Old 10-21-2005, 03:06 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by scooper
There is going to be a Ghost Hunters special on Halloween night. That might be interesting.

Thanks for the heads up!
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Old 10-21-2005, 03:59 PM   #43
Glengoyne
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You know I've tried to watch this. Because of this thread here I sat through two hours of their marathon the other day. It was in a word BAD. It was just a bunch of guys walking around in the dark screwing around. Nothing came of it...ever. In their analysis, they sit there and proclaim, "We had some unexplained events, but they could have been anything."

I can't believe this show is even worthy of a thread here on this board.
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Old 10-21-2005, 04:03 PM   #44
scooper
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Originally Posted by Glengoyne
You know I've tried to watch this. Because of this thread here I sat through two hours of their marathon the other day. It was in a word BAD. It was just a bunch of guys walking around in the dark screwing around. Nothing came of it...ever. In their analysis, they sit there and proclaim, "We had some unexplained events, but they could have been anything."

I can't believe this show is even worthy of a thread here on this board.

The ones they really catch are interesting. It's really about 50/50 if they get any evidence. Trust me, if you are into those type of shows, this week's evidence would have opened your eyes. I understand where you are coming from, though. Through the middle of this season, there were some long dead spots.
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Old 10-21-2005, 05:52 PM   #45
gkb
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I thought this week's episode was the best one of the season so far. The image in the thermal cam was pretty impressive. Since they didn't get the laptop moving on camera I wasn't as impressed by it.
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Old 10-21-2005, 08:57 PM   #46
Schmidty
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glengoyne
You know I've tried to watch this. Because of this thread here I sat through two hours of their marathon the other day. It was in a word BAD. It was just a bunch of guys walking around in the dark screwing around. Nothing came of it...ever. In their analysis, they sit there and proclaim, "We had some unexplained events, but they could have been anything."

I can't believe this show is even worthy of a thread here on this board.

I love the show because of these exact reasons. If they don't find something, they don't make shit up. They are credible. When they DO happen to find something, I believe it much more than I would have otherwise.

Not only that, but I really, really like the people in TAPS. Most of them seem like people I would hang out with. Just normal dudes with a passion for something that a lot of us have. Even better, they follow-through on that passion.

I think it's one of the best shows on TV, although I understand someone not liking it if they weren't interested in the topic of the show.
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Old 10-30-2005, 01:01 AM   #47
sachmo71
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For you ghost hunting fans...on the travel channel, they are running a live tv show called Most Haunted Live. I watched a bit of it tonight, and the most interesting stuff seems to be coming from the folks watching the webcams. Everything I saw on the actual show (albeit about 30 minutes out of 3 hours) looks like it could easily be faked. Psychis, oujia boards, etc just don't do it for me. I believe it's live every night through Halloween.

Here's the website:

www.mosthauntedlive.net
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Old 10-30-2005, 01:35 AM   #48
Sidhe
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They just got busted by their own parapsychologist. He exposed the show as a fraud.

Piss on them, fraudsters!
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Old 10-30-2005, 02:53 AM   #49
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BOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 10-30-2005, 10:38 AM   #50
Sidhe
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It does show, on the other hand, something that isn't generally well known. Professional parapsychologists are true scientists. There aren't many places you can still get that degree here in the US and even in Britain I think opportunities are limited. That's too bad. You need scientists looking into this stuff.

I'm reading a book that goes over the early years of parapsychology, before it really had a name, when interested scientists from all over looked into spiritism and mediumship. Until I read this, I had no idea that there was so much scientific work done. It's all been waved away by skeptics, but not on clear grounds. Only on the grounds that science wasn't good enough then. But you read some of what they did to test the paranormal and you'll be surprised to learn they did as well with some of it as we could possibly do today. They exposed a lot of fraud, but there were some they thought had to be legit. They left off arguing about whether they were really doing mediumship -- that they considered settled-- and started arguing about what mediumship was -- whether communication from the dead, or some psychic function of the brain we don't understand.

Then along came WWII, and by the time that was over, most of these folks were dead, and nobody paid any attention to what they'd learned. Back to square one.
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