Trayvon Martin case to go to grand jury, Fla. state attorney announces

[molson]

Originally Posted by lungs

Maybe they are/were both douche bags but nobody deserved to die in all this.

I'm a bit clouded by some of the farming forums I visit because there's no shortage of racist rednecks that come out and say that a negro walking in a gated community had to have been up to no good and had it coming. Of course these are the same jackasses that carry guns on them when they are farming as if some bogey man is going to come out and shoot them in the middle of bumfuck nowhere at any time.

The discourse on here is at least halfways intelligent. JiMGA would probably be classified as a n***** lover by some of the idiots I've seen/heard give their opinion on the subject.

I agree with that, nobody deserved to die in all this, and fortunately, I think almost everybody agrees with that except the racist redneck sect. I think most people also agree that you have a right to walk in a neighborhood when black, that you have a right to wear a hoodie, that you have a right to buy skittles, and that you should follow instructions - direct and indirect - of 911 dispatch operators, and that you shouldn't overstep your bounds as a neighborhood watch guy. Those are the easy questions, but I there are definitely more difficult ones too.

[Young Drachma]

http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/ripti...ats_not_hi.php

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/201...tin-1995-2012/

http://www.cjr.org/the_audit/sourcing_trayvon_martin_photos.php

[Autumn]

But the 911 call are relevant. What this kid writes on Twitter might be interesting to us all, but has nothing to do with what happened that night. The most cruel, criminal thug in the world should not end up dead if he's just walking down a street minding his own business. The nicest, sweetest kid in the world might end up dead if he picks a fight with a guy with a gun. The relevant details are what happened that night, not what they did the day before.

EDIT: ooops, lots of posts while I was typing. This was in response to wanting to know about the Twitter account.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Autumn

But the 911 call are relevant. What this kid writes on Twitter might be interesting to us all, but has nothing to do with what happened that night. The most cruel, criminal thug in the world should not end up dead if he's just walking down a street minding his own business. The nicest, sweetest kid in the world might end up dead if he picks a fight with a guy with a gun. The relevant details are what happened that night, not what they did the day before.

I think the 911 calls are good for Zimmerman's defense if he faces any federal civil rights prosecution. It seems a stretch to think a guy who calls 911 over potholes and open windows will ONLY get involved with a hooded teenager walking around at night he's of a certain race. I'm not 100% sure who it would help in a state prosecution, it depends on the theories of the case both use - the defense might portray him as a concerned watchful citizen who is perhaps over-worried about everything but never got physically involved before, and the prosecution might portray him as a dangerous loser who ignores the rules and the 911 operators and was looking for a fight (or both might happen)

Any real twitter stuff - I think it has limited if any relevance in a trial, but if the prosecution somehow portrays him as "peaceful" or something the defense could rebut it with any internet postings that they can actually authenticate as real. (Of course, the state would never open the door like that so it's a moot issue)...but no doubt people are digging up everything they can on Zimmerman (for media rather than prosecution reasons), so I think we can expect people to try to do the same for Martin. Is either side sorting out the information for what they feel is "relevant" v. what they feel is merely unfairly prejudicial? I doubt it.

"The most cruel, criminal thug in the world should not end up dead if he's just walking down a street minding his own business." Agreed, that's another one of those easy questions not at issue here, I don't think. In this country, the fact that something bad happens doesn't guarantee someone else goes to jail for it, even if they deserve it.

[Young Drachma]

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/201...tin-1995-2012/

[JediKooter]

I don't know why anyone would be surprised that someone tried to defend himself from a guy with a gun. If someone had a gun and I was able to get him on the ground or sucker punch him, I would definitely make sure he wouldn't be able to shoot me. If I have to continue punching him, kicking him, or whatever, I'm defending myself until I feel that the threat to my life has been removed or I have a chance to get away and run.

I'm not saying that's what happened here, but, I can see how the situation could have turned that way between Zimmerman and Martin. As far as we know, Martin didn't know who Zimmerman was or what his intentions were. So short of any new revelations, I believe that scenario is quite plausible.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Apparently on that point we disagree. Considerably.

I got your disagreement right here (points to crotch) and my reason here (points to Attorney I.D. card).

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

I got your disagreement right here (points to crotch) and my reason here (points to Attorney I.D. card).

Hey, there's a lot of things that occur in a courtroom that aren't right {shrug}

The "justice" system has been in need of a considerable overhaul for a very long time.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

"The most cruel, criminal thug in the world should not end up dead if he's just walking down a street minding his own business."

It does, however, tend to limit the concern of rational people.

[JediKooter]

Unfortunately or fortunately (depending on how you look at it), to ensure that all citizens are guaranteed their rights, even the shittiest of citizens must be protected from bad things happening to them. It isn't a perfect system, but, I think it's pretty damned good when compared to what else is out there.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by molson

I think the 911 calls are good for Zimmerman's defense if he faces any federal civil rights prosecution. It seems a stretch to think a guy who calls 911 over potholes and open windows will ONLY get involved with a hooded teenager walking around at night he's of a certain race.

Heh. That actually makes sense. I once saw a bumper sticker that said "I'm not racist. I hate EVERYBODY!!!" So in this case: "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, my client's prejudices aren't bigoted. He's paranoid about EVERYBODY!!!"

[dave731]

Zimmerman's lawyer appears to be an idiot though...I could do a better job than he has thus far.

[molson]

Originally Posted by dave731

Zimmerman's lawyer appears to be an idiot though...I could do a better job than he has thus far.

He does kind of remind of Sandusky's lawyer for some reason. There's a ton of defense attorneys like that in every town. It's like they go into the phone book and look for the biggest photo.

[Apathetic Lurker]

I heard that Zimmerman is the son of retired Supreme Court Magistrate Judge Robert Zimmerman and his mother is a court clerk....interesting if true....

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

How do you know that he wasn't, or "what's standard in all shootings regardless of the circumstances."? Was it requested and refused (by either party)? What's the specific legal authority to demand a drug test outside of a driving context? (where you agree to submit to such tests in your driver's license application.)

In shootings, even justifiable ones, it is common to test the shooter to make sure they were not high or drunk. Multiple cops from multiple cities have been on TV or in the paper stating this is standard procedure. When an officer shoots someone, they do the same thing too. Now I'm guessing Zimmerman could reject the request, although I don't think it would take much for them to get the legal authority to do so.

As for Martin, he couldn't consent because he was dead. They did run a full toxicology report on his corpse though.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

From his twitter and facebook (which is family rushed to delete immediately after this all happened), it appears he was also a drug dealer, and obsessed with gang violence, and certainly not adverse to confrontation or beating people up - at least by his words.

A lot of that stuff ended up being fake. I wouldn't be gathering information from white supremacist forums. Probably not going to be reliable.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Apathetic Lurker

I heard that Zimmerman is the son of retired Supreme Court Magistrate Judge Robert Zimmerman and his mother is a court clerk....interesting if true....

I heard he was the son of Bob Dylan.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Ding Ding Ding.

At this point, if I had to guess how it went down, I'd say that the most likely course of events is that Zimmerman follows Martin, Martin notices the guy following him, is pissed about being followed, and an altercation ensues. (I'm not willing to speculate on who threw the first punch. We're never going to hear more than one side of that story.) Martin is winning the fight. Zimmerman kills him. There's never a fight if Zimmerman doesn't follow Martin, making him probably guilty of being a wannabe cop who should have let the real cops get there and deal with Martin, maybe guilty of racial profiling, probably guilty of being a generally creepy loser, but probably not legally guilty of murder because of this law. Yeah, my best guess is that if Zimmerman doesn't play cop, Martin gets back to the house before the real cops arrive and watches the 2nd half of the All-Star game.

In short, I'm starting to think that Zimmerman is "responsible" for Martin's death, but probably not criminally guilty. And if that truly is the case, I very much doubt that the masses will be able to separate themselves from their emotions enough to understand the difference between the two.

I sort of feel like if you kill another unarmed human being, you should have to show some proof that it was necessary. If someone's wife is dead on the kitchen floor and the husband is standing there with a gun, he's got to say more than "she hit me" to get off. Zimmerman did not go to a hospital and so far they have not released any photos of his grave injuries. If he was being beaten by someone half his size that badly, the injuries should be apparent.

It brings up another question though. What should we be now teaching kids to do when confronted by adult strangers who are stalking them? The old thinking was to run, kick, scream, and fight as much as you could. We had cops come to our school and tell kids this. But it appears now that we should be telling kids to be obedient if an adult male stalks them. This case says clearly that you should not fight back at all.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Heh. That actually makes sense. I once saw a bumper sticker that said "I'm not racist. I hate EVERYBODY!!!" So in this case: "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, my client's prejudices aren't bigoted. He's paranoid about EVERYBODY!!!"

actually I DO think this. It could have been a white kid in a hoodie. I think his "he just looks shady" thing says it all. I think it was more of a "he looks poor" thing. or "he looks in a gang" thing and especially "he looks like he doesn't live here so that gives me the right to push him around" thing.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

A lot of that stuff ended up being fake. I wouldn't be gathering information from white supremacist forums. Probably not going to be reliable.

Why the petty, indirect insults? Stop being a baby.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

Why the petty, indirect insults? Stop being a baby.

It's not an insult. Those things originated on Stormfront. Just saying they probably aren't reliable sources.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It's not an insult. Those things originated on Stormfront. Just saying they probably aren't reliable sources.

You could have just said that instead of telling me I shouldn't be "gathering information from white supremacist forums."

I don't know what Stormfront is, and I appreciated Ben E Lou pointing out that there was questions about the twitter thing. I've read about it in a ton of places.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Multiple suspensions paint complicated portrait of Trayvon Martin - Florida - MiamiHerald.com

So this is dated yesterday but today is the first I've heard of there actually being three suspensions from school, including one that involved his backpack which "contained 12 pieces of jewelry, in addition to a watch and a large flathead screwdriver, according to the report, which described silver wedding bands and earrings with diamonds".

edit to add: And I'm reasonably sure that the Herald didn't get their info from Stormfront

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

In shootings, even justifiable ones, it is common to test the shooter to make sure they were not high or drunk. Multiple cops from multiple cities have been on TV or in the paper stating this is standard procedure. When an officer shoots someone, they do the same thing too. Now I'm guessing Zimmerman could reject the request, although I don't think it would take much for them to get the legal authority to do so.

As for Martin, he couldn't consent because he was dead. They did run a full toxicology report on his corpse though.

Dead people don't have fourth amendment rights, and officers probably consent to drug tests as a condition of their employment, but I honestly don't know if officers can perform a forced drug test on any criminal suspect, or any homicide suspect specifically (if it's not vehicular manslaughter). My two minute westlaw search came up short, (as did my search of white supremacist blogs where I get most of my information.) But in any event, the officers can always ask, and they should have here, so I was asking if they did, and if it was refused (which of course, would be a pretty good indicator that he was on something) I was also asking if we definitively know that no drug tests were performed, or if that's just an assumption based on the fact that there are no results released publicly. If Zimmerman was tested and tested positive for meth, cocaine, and heroin, I'm not sure they're allowed to release that publicly. But if the Sheriff's department came out and said they didn't try to test him, I just missed that.

[RainMaker]

And Zimmerman beat his ex and assaulted a cop. One has a violent background, the other doesn't. I don't know why you guys need to turn every matter into some political fight. A kid was stalked by a guy with a violent past holding a gun and ended up dead. The kid was not committing a crime, was vastly undersized, and had made attempts to get away from the stalker.

I know both sides are politicizing it. Sharpton wants some face time and conveniently never shows up when a 7-year old on the South Side of Chicago is caught up in gang crossfire. And I know the racist wing on the other side needs to let us all know that the darned colored shouldn't be walking around. But this isn't a complicated case. This wouldn't even make a good Law & Order episode. The guy with the gun, the guy who was the aggressor, the guy with the violent past put a bullet into a kid without a violent past, who wasn't committing a crime, and who was trying to get away. I know it's Florida and all and we should expect some level of stupidity, but they are outdoing themselves here.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Originally Posted by Apathetic Lurker

I heard that Zimmerman is the son of retired Supreme Court Magistrate Judge Robert Zimmerman and his mother is a court clerk....interesting if true....

George Zimmerman, Son of a Retired Judge, Has 3 Closed Arrests | Rolling Out - Black News, Celebrity Videos, Entertainment, Business & Politics

Did George Zimmerman have help from his father, a retired judge, in clearing his name in three separate arrests?
That’s the question that’s being asked now that more information on Trayvon Martin’s 28-year-old killer is being revealed. Robert Zimmerman, a former Orange County magistrate judge, recently wrote a letter to The Orlando Sentinel defending his son, who’s been dragged through the mud for shooting the unarmed 17-year-old last month. In the letter, the senior Zimmerman asks people not to jump to conclusions and insists that his son didn’t follow the young boy home as he walked through their gated community.
“He would be the last to discriminate for any reason whatsoever. The media portrayal of George as a racist could not be further from the truth. At no time did George follow or confront Mr. Martin. When the true details of the event became public, and I hope that will be soon, everyone should be outraged by the treatment of George Zimmerman in the media,” wrote Robert Zimmerman.
Now more info is being dug up on his “victimized” son through public records and revealing his checkered past.
According to a records search on George, he was previously arrested for domestic violence, resisting an officer without violence and most shockingly, resisting an officer with violence — a felony charge that surely could have landed him in prison.
All three of those arrests, however, were mysteriously closed with no semblance of charges for the Florida resident. So how was someone with a violent past including that of battery against an officer able to carry a 9 mm handgun? Maybe that’s a question Robert Zimmerman should answer …

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by M GO BLUE!!!

Maybe that’s a question Robert Zimmerman should answer …

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Multiple suspensions paint complicated portrait of Trayvon Martin - Florida - MiamiHerald.com

So this is dated yesterday but today is the first I've heard of there actually being three suspensions from school, including one that involved his backpack which "contained 12 pieces of jewelry, in addition to a watch and a large flathead screwdriver, according to the report, which described silver wedding bands and earrings with diamonds".

edit to add: And I'm reasonably sure that the Herald didn't get their info from Stormfront

So the moral of the story is: Don't fight back when attacked by an obsessive psycho. He can literally get away with murder, (thanks to his daddy,) and then every thing you've ever done wrong in your life will be exposed.

Got it.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by M GO BLUE!!!

George Zimmerman, Son of a Retired Judge, Has 3 Closed Arrests | Rolling Out - Black News, Celebrity Videos, Entertainment, Business & Politics

Did George Zimmerman have help from his father, a retired judge, in clearing his name in three separate arrests?
That’s the question that’s being asked now that more information on Trayvon Martin’s 28-year-old killer is being revealed. Robert Zimmerman, a former Orange County magistrate judge, recently wrote a letter to The Orlando Sentinel defending his son, who’s been dragged through the mud for shooting the unarmed 17-year-old last month. In the letter, the senior Zimmerman asks people not to jump to conclusions and insists that his son didn’t follow the young boy home as he walked through their gated community.
“He would be the last to discriminate for any reason whatsoever. The media portrayal of George as a racist could not be further from the truth. At no time did George follow or confront Mr. Martin. When the true details of the event became public, and I hope that will be soon, everyone should be outraged by the treatment of George Zimmerman in the media,” wrote Robert Zimmerman.
Now more info is being dug up on his “victimized” son through public records and revealing his checkered past.
According to a records search on George, he was previously arrested for domestic violence, resisting an officer without violence and most shockingly, resisting an officer with violence — a felony charge that surely could have landed him in prison.
All three of those arrests, however, were mysteriously closed with no semblance of charges for the Florida resident. So how was someone with a violent past including that of battery against an officer able to carry a 9 mm handgun? Maybe that’s a question Robert Zimmerman should answer …

Wow this blows my mind...

And definitely gives motive.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

Dead people don't have fourth amendment rights, and officers probably consent to drug tests as a condition of their employment, but I honestly don't know if officers can perform a forced drug test on any criminal suspect, or any homicide suspect specifically (if it's not vehicular manslaughter). My two minute westlaw search came up short, (as did my search of white supremacist blogs where I get most of my information.) But in any event, the officers can always ask, and they should have here, so I was asking if they did, and if it was refused (which of course, would be a pretty good indicator that he was on something) I was also asking if we definitively know that no drug tests were performed, or if that's just an assumption based on the fact that there are no results released publicly. If Zimmerman was tested and tested positive for meth, cocaine, and heroin, I'm not sure they're allowed to release that publicly. But if the Sheriff's department came out and said they didn't try to test him, I just missed that.

You can't force someone to consent. You can get a warrant though to test. When you have an unarmed teenager dead, it seems like a thorough investigation would be warranted.

You can ask someone if they would consent to it. It doesn't appear that was done either according to the police reports.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by M GO BLUE!!!

George Zimmerman, Son of a Retired Judge, Has 3 Closed Arrests | Rolling Out - Black News, Celebrity Videos, Entertainment, Business & Politics

Did George Zimmerman have help from his father, a retired judge, in clearing his name in three separate arrests?
That’s the question that’s being asked now that more information on Trayvon Martin’s 28-year-old killer is being revealed. Robert Zimmerman, a former Orange County magistrate judge, recently wrote a letter to The Orlando Sentinel defending his son, who’s been dragged through the mud for shooting the unarmed 17-year-old last month. In the letter, the senior Zimmerman asks people not to jump to conclusions and insists that his son didn’t follow the young boy home as he walked through their gated community.
“He would be the last to discriminate for any reason whatsoever. The media portrayal of George as a racist could not be further from the truth. At no time did George follow or confront Mr. Martin. When the true details of the event became public, and I hope that will be soon, everyone should be outraged by the treatment of George Zimmerman in the media,” wrote Robert Zimmerman.
Now more info is being dug up on his “victimized” son through public records and revealing his checkered past.
According to a records search on George, he was previously arrested for domestic violence, resisting an officer without violence and most shockingly, resisting an officer with violence — a felony charge that surely could have landed him in prison.
All three of those arrests, however, were mysteriously closed with no semblance of charges for the Florida resident. So how was someone with a violent past including that of battery against an officer able to carry a 9 mm handgun? Maybe that’s a question Robert Zimmerman should answer …

Most of this was already out there. I also don't think he was arrested for domestic violence. His fiancee just filed for a restraining order from him after he assaulted her in her home. She didn't file with the police for the assault, just wanted him to stay away. Pretty sure it said a judge granted her protection order too so I'm not sure how that would be covered up.

[molson]

The Orlando paper had some of the details of the criminal history, so it's not too "mysterious" or "shocking". Worth considering in the bigger picture maybe, the guy had a temper, at least at one point in his life, and a surprising lack of respect for authority. Did his magistrate father pull some strings to get him the standard first offense consequences for the bar thing? Maybe! Did the magistrate father threaten the domestic violence victim with a false arrest or something to get her to back down? Stay tuned! I don't feel too bad for him now being suspected of corruption the rest of his life because he made himself part of the story with the stupid letter.

"In 2005, George Zimmerman was twice accused of either criminal misconduct or violence.

That July, Zimmerman — 21 at the time — was at a bar near the University of Central Florida when a friend was arrested by state alcohol agents on suspicion of serving underage drinkers, according to an arrest report.

Zimmerman was talking with his friend, became profane and pushed an agent who tried to escort him away, the report said. Authorities said he was arrested after a short struggle.

Charged with resisting arrest without violence, he avoided conviction by entering a pretrial-diversion program, something common for first-time offenders.

A month later, court records show, a woman filed a petition for an injunction against Zimmerman, citing domestic violence. It's unclear what led to the petition, but Zimmerman responded by filing a petition of his own the following day.

Records show injunctions were later issued in both cases. Reached by email, the woman would not comment on her past with Zimmerman or his current situation."

[RainMaker]

The details of the petitions are here.

Trayvon Martin’s shooter had a domestic violence altercation in 2005 - Trayvon Martin - MiamiHerald.com

[rowech]

Sadly, this sounds like the perfect storm of two people, with checkered pasts, meeting each other, refusing to stand down, and producing a horrible result.

[chadritt]

Originally Posted by rowech

Sadly, this sounds like the perfect storm of two people, with checkered pasts, meeting each other, refusing to stand down, and producing a horrible result.

and thus you can probably blame the guy who started it without provocation and brought a GUN.

[Rizon]

Originally Posted by rowech

Sadly, this sounds like the perfect storm of two people, with checkered pasts, meeting each other, refusing to stand down, and producing a horrible result.

This

[RainMaker]

Petty vandalism and marijuana residue constitutes a checkered past. I hope I'm never involved in something like this. I TP'd a few houses and smoked a few joints back in high school. My checkered past finally will catch up to me.

[molson]

Originally Posted by rowech

Sadly, this sounds like the perfect storm of two people, with checkered pasts, meeting each other, refusing to stand down, and producing a horrible result.

I would say I was surprised it doesn't happen more often except, it does. The hyper-neighborhood watchman angle is a little different, but there's a pretty big, and sad, number of killings starting over some confrontation about nothing. Really, except for domestic violence killings (which the media doesn't care hardly at all about for some reason), and killings committed after some dumb in-the-moment confrontation (which the media cares about if the circumstances are interesting enough) - we're pretty good as a country at not killing each other.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Petty vandalism and marijuana residue constitutes a checkered past.

And I'm sure that jewelry really came innocently from a "friend".

On an unrelated matter, I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And I'm sure that jewelry really came innocently from a "friend".

On an unrelated matter, I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you.

I think assaulting a police officer and a woman seem more severe.

[RedKingGold]

JimGA v. Rainmaker = the irresistible force vs. the immovable object!

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I think assaulting a police officer and a woman seem more severe.

Are we debating the severity of past transgressions? I think the point was Trayvon was clearly not the darling little innocent angel who would never hurt a fly portrayed originally.

As was pointed out above, it's sounding more and more like 2 alpha males squaring off, rather than Zimmerman jumping some innocent kid. It still doesn't sound like it should have ended in a shooting, though.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by molson

I would say I was surprised it doesn't happen more often except, it does. The hyper-neighborhood watchman angle is a little different, but there's a pretty big, and sad, number of killings starting over some confrontation about nothing. Really, except for domestic violence killings (which the media doesn't care hardly at all about for some reason), and killings committed after some dumb in-the-moment confrontation (which the media cares about if the circumstances are interesting enough) - we're pretty good as a country at not killing each other.

Even so, you're probably right that you would think it happens more often. I also think people are extremely frustrated with so many things right now that people are capable of snapping a lot quicker when something like this starts. In addition, one can't be seen as the one who backs down for any reason. Simply have to show that you're "right" and the other person is "wrong" and if you won't back down, and they won't back down, it's not going to end well in some cases.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

I would say I was surprised it doesn't happen more often except, it does. The hyper-neighborhood watchman angle is a little different, but there's a pretty big, and sad, number of killings starting over some confrontation about nothing. Really, except for domestic violence killings (which the media doesn't care hardly at all about for some reason), and killings committed after some dumb in-the-moment confrontation (which the media cares about if the circumstances are interesting enough) - we're pretty good as a country at not killing each other.

It is sort of shocking. With all the guns, with all the anger, there aren't a lot of murders taking place. Even on a domestic level, while they occur, you'd think there would be more of it with all the divorces and cheating taking place.

The hyper neighborhood watchman is something I can relate to. It's why I didn't think this was racially motivated as much as an overly aggressive guy trying to compensate with this gig. We have a guy like this around here. He is constantly patrolling, looking into people's yards, and harrassing everyone. I got into it one day when he was berating some lady for daring to not move her car during a street sweeping day. Myself and another guy are the only ones who will stand up to him around here and he hates it. But now that I think about it, I could probably say the wrong thing or do something suspicious and he could blow me away for it. It wouldn't surprise me to hear about him getting into a violent altercation with someone with how serious he takes things and how angry he is at the world.

My theory is still that this guy wanted to play cop, shot the kid during a confrontation, and is now trying to save his ass. It's why you shouldn't try and play cop unless you are trained for it.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Are we debating the severity of past transgressions? I think the point was Trayvon was clearly not the darling little innocent angel who would never hurt a fly portrayed originally.

As was pointed out above, it's sounding more and more like 2 alpha males squaring off, rather than Zimmerman jumping some innocent kid. It still doesn't sound like it should have ended in a shooting, though.

I'm not saying he was a little innocent darling. He was unarmed and not committing a crime. He is the one dead. I'm not sure if people find it comforting that he might have smoked pot or something, but that's not terribly relevant. Even if he was smoking pot while he was walking through the neighborhood it's not justification to killing him. And yes, we can compare the severity if we are using past transgressions as evidence. If his pot and vandalism is relevant, I'd say that similar violent altercations would be relevant as well.

And I'm not sure you know what Alpha male means. He's pretty small in size and stature. Seems far fetched that he'd be starting fights with grown men that have over 100 pounds on him. And if someone is stalking you at night, your fight or flight instinct kicks in. We all would have to make that decision as to whether we can get away from the person stalking us or if we try and fight our way out of it.

[molson]

One other fact I was really curious about was whether Zimmerman told/claimed to the police that he yelled for help. And I did see on CNN that Zimmerman told police "I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me."

I think that's a really big admission/statement/fact in this case.

I listened to the 911 call again and the yelling goes on for longer than I thought - the one lady calls 911 and then the yelling for help goes on for another 46 seconds on the audio after the call starts. So it probably went on for at least a total of a minute, maybe a lot longer depending on how long the lady took to call 911. If that's Martin yelling, and that can be proven, Zimmerman's toast - his statements can be used to show he tried to cover things up with the police. If it's Zimmerman yelling - that's going to be tough or impossible to get a conviction. (maybe Zimmerman is still morally guilty, and maybe there's some creative prosecution that could use a felony murder/manslaughter theory or something, but - it'd be a tough sell to a jury I'd think unless you had some other facts.) How do you get a murder conviction when the murderer yells for help for 1 minute+ immediately before the killing? What in the hell was either Zimmerman or Martin doing for more than 1 minute to make the other cry for help that long? (or shit, maybe they were both yelling).

If you have and audio recording of someone talking or yelling can you definitively identify it in another recording?

[kurtism]

4thletter! » Blog Archive » that’s just the way it is.

Perspective, eloquently stated.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

One other fact I was really curious about was whether Zimmerman told/claimed to the police that he yelled for help. And I did see on CNN that Zimmerman told police "I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me."

I think that's a really big admission/statement/fact in this case.

I listened to the 911 call again and the yelling goes on for longer than I thought - the one lady calls 911 and then the yelling for help goes on for another 46 seconds on the audio after the call starts. So it probably went on for at least a total of a minute, maybe a lot longer depending on how long the lady took to call 911. If that's Martin yelling, and that can be proven, Zimmerman's toast - his statements can be used to show he tried to cover things up with the police. If it's Zimmerman yelling - that's going to be tough or impossible to get a conviction. (maybe Zimmerman is still morally guilty, and maybe there's some creative prosecution that could use a felony murder/manslaughter theory or something, but - it'd be a tough sell to a jury I'd think unless you had some other facts.) How do you get a murder conviction when the murderer yells for help for 1 minute+ immediately before the killing? What in the hell was either Zimmerman or Martin doing for more than 1 minute to make the other cry for help that long? (or shit, maybe they were both yelling).

If you have and audio recording of someone talking or yelling can you definitively identify it in another recording?

Here are some of the witnesses that were close to it.

Witnesses in Trayvon Martin death heard cries before shot - Trayvon Martin - MiamiHerald.com
Neighborhood Watch Shooting of Trayvon Martin: Probe Reveals 'Questionable Police Conduct' - ABC News

Another trend in the investigation seems to be witnesses telling one story and the police trying to change those stories. Not sure why.

[fpres]

PICKET: Spike Lee re-tweets incorrect address of Trayvon Martin shooter - Washington Times

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Here are some of the witnesses that were close to it.

Witnesses in Trayvon Martin death heard cries before shot - Trayvon Martin - MiamiHerald.com
Neighborhood Watch Shooting of Trayvon Martin: Probe Reveals 'Questionable Police Conduct' - ABC News

Another trend in the investigation seems to be witnesses telling one story and the police trying to change those stories. Not sure why.

I've watched multiple videos of poor police interviews that potentially blew murder cases. I've seen officers get one idea in their head and be a little slow to consider different ideas. (though of course, the good interviews/work outnumbers the bad) I didn't suspect a wider conspiracy in any of them, but I suppose it's possible. Pretty unlikely though. Police officers I know want their shifts to end and to go be able to go home in one piece. Putting together conspiracies to protect enthusiastic neighborhood watch guys would be pretty low on their priority list. I wish police work was better and we could have all-star caliber people top to bottom in every city, but that hasn't proven possible with the current pay offered and the fact that they get fired/demoted if someone claims they're rude at a traffic stop. Still, I think it's pretty good considering the different roadblocks, and our system is pretty good at correcting/mitigating the errors that do occur - and they will occur. If an officer here made a mistake assuming it was Zimmerman yelling when a witness was trying to tell him it was Martin, that's a mistake, but a pretty inconsequential one in the grand scheme of things. That witness is still there, and can say what she heard, and why she thinks it was Martin.

But aside for that, it all supports my point in the last post. If we know who was yelling, if that can be proven, it's probably case closed, one way or another, IMO. That's the single most important fact I think. If we know that for a fact, it doesn't much matter what kind of people Zimmerman and Martin were, or what the police did or didn't do, or what Al Sharpton thinks, or whether we should profile based on hoodies. (And witness statements saying it was one guy or the other is not the kind of proof I'm talking about - how would a witness know who was yelling? Defense attorneys are always telling me that eyewitnesses are unreliable - I can't imagine what they'd think about earwitnesses who didn't know either person.....I have more optimism that yelling that's ON A RECORDING can be more definitively tied to one guy or the other.)