Public Education and Race

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Hmm, reading that quote (italics mine for emphasis) perhaps this kid isn't nearly as smart as we've been led to believe.

I expect from the article that his parents are moral people and have brought him up to believe that because thats how they conduct themselves and their careers.

Within a field you can get good and bad - by the sounds of it, they're part of the good and have set that impression into their son.

PS - Intelligence has nothing to do with worldly experience my daughter is incredibly intelligent (far more so than myself) but is also fairly naive .. which is all this young man appears to suffer from.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

I come from a family of caregivers and it is a higher calling, imo.

I've also watched the morality of those in the profession decline over time rather than develop in the positive sense.

Perhaps that's true with virtually all professions {shrug}.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Intelligence has nothing to do with worldly experience my daughter is incredibly intelligent (far more so than myself) but is also fairly naive .. which is all this young man appears to suffer from.

I'd argue that, at his age, if he genuinely believes what he said then he's either a f'n idiot OR thinks pretty much everyone else is.

(P.S. Marc, don't be quite so literal when reading me. "Smart" in my original comment there was used in a loose rather than strict sense, chosen for the attempt at ironic humor)

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Perhaps that's true with virtually all professions {shrug}.

This seems more likely, Jon.

Though not as likely as the idea that you're simply getting more cynical with age.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

This seems more likely, Jon.

Though not as likely as the idea that you're simply getting more cynical with age.

I know this much: I hold politicians -- as a group -- in higher regard than I hold the medical profession as a group.

That's not a ringing endorsement.

[Buccaneer]

Getting more cynical with age?!? Say it ain't so!

[sterlingice]

I think there are a lot of people who think the end goal is more fulfilling.

However, working in a health care environment now and coming from different places, I see some of what Jon is saying. I think a significant number get into it for selfish reasons, be they egotistical (I think a lot of doctors do think they're 2 steps closer to God than the rest of us), economic (it's paying well right now), emotional (want to create a nurturing environment where I can play "mom"), or the just happenstance (they were looking for my skills and if a bank or sales company called offering 10% more, I'd leave).

SI

[Izulde]

Economics has a lot to do with it IMO. A ton of women I went to high school with have suddenly gone back to school for nursing the last 5-10 years because of the job availability and the income they can earn from it.

[AENeuman]

Interesting update. A huge number of high schools in nation now give a free and mandatory SAT/ACT test once a year to all juniors.

Not much change in scores. Biggest benefit is it makes it much easier it is for low income kids take it twice- greatly increasing their scores.

The worst thing is, this becomes a mandatory 4 hour exercise in making many students feel dumb and hopeless.



BTW thanks nol, it was fun to revisit this tread.

[nol]

Originally Posted by AENeuman

Interesting update. A huge number of high schools in nation now give a free and mandatory SAT/ACT test once a year to all juniors.

Not much change in scores. Biggest benefit is it makes it much easier it is for low income kids take it twice- greatly increasing their scores.

The worst thing is, this becomes a mandatory 4 hour exercise in making many students feel dumb and hopeless.



BTW thanks nol, it was fun to revisit this tread.

Wow, so you're telling me that if you give less privileged students somewhat of a chance, some of them may prove they're pretty smart as well? Could've knocked me over with a feather.

You also seem to be unaware of how easily these standardized tests are gamed; it takes a bit more than 4 hours to do so, but with enough time (and money) it's trivial. You can check any of JonInMiddleGA's posts about his kid's academic experience, and as a former SAT/ACT tutor I can corroborate that it's child's play to get a mediocre student up to the 80th-90th percentile if their parents throw enough money at you.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by nol

Wow, so you're telling me that if you give less privileged students somewhat of a chance, some of them may prove they're pretty smart as well? Could've knocked me over with a feather.

You also seem to be unaware of how easily these standardized tests are gamed; it takes a bit more than 4 hours to do so, but with enough time (and money) it's trivial. You can check any of JonInMiddleGA's posts about his kid's academic experience, and as a former SAT/ACT tutor I can corroborate that it's child's play to get a mediocre student up to the 80th-90th percentile if their parents throw enough money at you.

FWIW, my son took some one-on-one tutoring for the ACT (done remotely via Skype) and increased his score by 3 points. This was from borderline for some colleges he wanted to get into to comfortably within range. He told me some tips and tricks that he was taught so wealth/money/motivated parents are a factor.

However, I would not call it trivial. If the kid was not motivated to do it, even if given the money and opportunity, it wouldn't help. He spent alot of effort doing the prep.

[Edward64]

Not about race but about teacher pay. There seems to be a movement to strike with the success of WV teachers.

These teachers work up to 6 jobs. Now they're fed up and ready to walk out - CNN

Oklahoma is among the bottom three states for teacher salaries, where educators often work about 10 years before reaching the $40,000 salary mark. And they haven't gotten a raise from the state in 10 years.

While educators nationwide have seen slight paycheck bumps over the past decade, when adjusted for inflation, teachers have actually lost 3% of their income from 2006 to 2016, according to the National Education Association.

Recently, the Oklahoma teachers' union called for $10,000 teacher raises, $5,000 raises for support staff and more than $200 million for education funding.

Lawmakers agreed on an average teacher raise of $6,100, $1,250 for support staff and a $50 million increase in education funding -- a measure Gov. Mary Fallin signed into law Thursday.

But many teachers say it's not enough. So on Monday, Troxell and thousands of other teachers will walk out -- prompting some schools to shut down indefinitely.

"We're at the end of the rope," Troxell said.

He's far from alone. Several teachers told CNN they're working multiple jobs in food delivery, retail, rideshare driving, restaurants and even surrogate pregnancy to pay the bills. Some now rely on a food bank to feed their own children.

[MrBug708]

Dang, 40k? Cost of living that low there?

[Galaril]

My wife is a 5th grade school teacher in a high risk school in Denver and is paid $46k. That is $5k more than others since she has a master degree. She actually has three Masters; one being an MBA and an undergrad for William and Mary. I tell her she could easily be running a school district but she feels a passion for teaching the kids. Luckily my career gives us the financial freedom to support her passion.
But yes it is pathetic how low all teachers are paid and also thought of. It reminds me of how the military fares.

[AENeuman]

Well... teachers only work 38 weeks. If they get a job for another 10 weeks and still a have 4 weeks of they probably earn closer to living wage...

Seriously, I think this is a solution. The school year needs to be at least 4 weeks longer. There is practically nothing else that contributes to the growing achievement gap than school “vacations”. Middle and rich kids get enrichment, poor get xbox and sibling babysitters.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by AENeuman

Well... teachers only work 38 weeks. If they get a job for another 10 weeks and still a have 4 weeks of they probably earn closer to living wage...

That's assuming they could find a temp job that pays at the same rate, which is unlikely. Also, while they work fewer total weeks, they work more than 40 hours a week. My teacher friends definitely work as many hours in a year as I do.

Seriously, I think this is a solution. The school year needs to be at least 4 weeks longer. There is practically nothing else that contributes to the growing achievement gap than school “vacations”. Middle and rich kids get enrichment, poor get xbox and sibling babysitters.

This wouldn't be a solution for teacher pay at all. There's zero chance state budgets would suddenly account for the extra amount of teacher pay that would be required. Even if I believed teachers would get a raise in this scenario, there's no way it would match the rate they already get and they'd still be ridiculously underpaid.

[BBT]

Originally Posted by Galaril

But yes it is pathetic how low all teachers are paid and also thought of. It reminds me of how the military fares.

Military gets paid much better if you're an officer or a non-commissioned officer (sergeant). We also got benefits that are much better than what teachers get for the most part.

Teachers are criminally underpaid.

[NobodyHere]

Just to play Devil's advocate, who here would want to see their taxes raised in order to pay teacher more? Who here would trust their local(state?) government to give the tax increases to teachers and not use some accounting trickery to give money to another interest?

[BBT]

I would pay more taxes to pay teachers better. I would also not trust my state government.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Just to play Devil's advocate, who here would want to see their taxes raised in order to pay teacher more? Who here would trust their local(state?) government to give the tax increases to teachers and not use some accounting trickery to give money to another interest?

Unfortunately is hasn't led to salary increases for coaches (probably because the few of us who aren't also teachers don't have a union), but...

Originally Posted by http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2017/12/the_highest_paying_massachuset.html

#3 Concord Public Schools
The average salary in 2016 was $95,732, up from $94,282 the year prior.

#2 Dover Public Schools
The average salary for district teachers in 2016 was $96,429, up from the previous year's average of $95,020.

#1 Carlisle Public Schools
The average salary for a full-time teacher in the district in 2016 was $100,803, a jump from the previous year's average of $91,182.

The Town Meeting system of governance (and real estate values being heavily tied to school quality) works pretty well. Though Massachusetts as a whole also values education more than most - even the city of Boston, which has plenty of low-income residents, funds a year of free pre-K programs because of all the future benefits it gives.

[JPhillips]

Some of this is a conscious decision by GOP lawmakers to fuck teachers in the hope of destroying education unions. Unions are generally pro-Dem, so in some states the GOP is willing to fuck students in an effort to destroy teacher's political power.

[PilotMan]

Keep an eye on Kentucky tomorrow.

It's the 3rd to last day of the legislative session and after the pension plan was axed and buried in a Sewage bill that went from committee to the governors desk in 9 hours, Monday they are supposed to try and pass a funding bill for education that will likely push almost 30% of the cost onto the local school boards, and take away massive public support (like books) and put charter schools on the same playing field as public.

It's gonna be a national news story. Most of the school districts in the state have cancelled school. It's a combination of sick protests by the teachers and the massing of all education workers in Frankfort for protest on funding, et al.

It's going to be a shitshow of the highest order.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Dang, 40k? Cost of living that low there?

$40k is starting wage for teachers here in Las Vegas.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by AENeuman

Well... teachers only work 38 weeks. If they get a job for another 10 weeks and still a have 4 weeks of they probably earn closer to living wage...

Seriously, I think this is a solution. The school year needs to be at least 4 weeks longer. There is practically nothing else that contributes to the growing achievement gap than school “vacations”. Middle and rich kids get enrichment, poor get xbox and sibling babysitters.

So I agree that students would benefit from more school days. The reality of it is that this would be a tough ask in most states, as in way beyond the budget, even if you didn't pay teachers a cent more. There are a lot of costs that a district incurs when they open the doors, transportation being a big one.

The better way from the research I've seen, which granted is a decade ago at this point, suggests year round schooling with the same number of days is a way to combat the summer learning loss, but that's as big an ask culturally as another month would be monetarily.

[ColtCrazy]

I taught for 19 years before I begrudgingly moved on to administration. I am enjoying the new role, and it's certainly given me a different insight on education as a whole. The contemptible view of teachers from admin, not to mention a portion of the public, is a major factor in how strong our education is. It's sad to see education on the such a low level of public perception. Low pay and no respect? Why would anyone want to do this job other than for a love of teaching? There are bad doctors, lawyers, maintenance workers, architects, etc. But it seems we are quick to point out the bad teachers rather than the vast majority of good ones.

That said, I know there's a big issue with the "summer slide". Yet, Indiana is pushing for a LONGER summer because summer businesses are being hurt. Our summer has slowly crept down to 2 months from 3, which I support. Next year, we start about 10 days later than usual and will have 2.5 months for summer. That's not a positive trend.

[stevew]

Pretty sure nobody at my wife’s school makes 40k other than the principal. I mean it’s Youngstown so you can get a starter home for 12,000 or so

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

So I agree that students would benefit from more school days. The reality of it is that this would be a tough ask in most states, as in way beyond the budget, even if you didn't pay teachers a cent more. There are a lot of costs that a district incurs when they open the doors, transportation being a big one.

The better way from the research I've seen, which granted is a decade ago at this point, suggests year round schooling with the same number of days is a way to combat the summer learning loss, but that's as big an ask culturally as another month would be monetarily.

Yep, never going to happen. I think the core issue is the failure to see the extra upfront cost as an investment. Massive money would be saved in the long run, but I guess no politician would ever get elected promoting long term savings over short term cuts.

[cougarfreak]

(null)
http://www.kentucky.com/news/politic...208881784.html

I swear, our governor is an ignorant human being. As an educator in Ky, he’s flat out embarrassing.




Then there’s this: https://www.theguardian.com/educatio...ategy-revealed


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JPhillips]

If Bevins isn't advocating year-round schooling, I guess that makes him pro child molesters.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by cougarfreak

(null)
Bevin claims protesting teachers left children vulnerable to sexual predators | Lexington Herald Leader

I swear, our governor is an ignorant human being. As an educator in Ky, he’s flat out embarrassing.




Then there’s this: Revealed: Secret rightwing strategy to discredit teacher strikes | Education | The Guardian


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

God, Bevin is a complete fucking tool. He's a big Trump wanabe. He's dying to get an invite to Washington DC. He gives no fucks about the long term of KY, he only wants that DC invite based on what he has said.

[AENeuman]

I'm on the committee to pick the next social studies textbook publisher. It's been 14 years. Observations:
1. Actual content of textbook is never mentioned, which is still same, brief and boring writing.
2. It's all about digital bells an whistles. You can easily teach their curriculum with ever having to teach.
3. All the textbook companies now only sell subscriptions to online and digital access. This makes it massively expensive for districts- trickle down from the very successful college model

I think we are at least 5 years away from being able to know how to best use digital information in most public classrooms.

Philosophically, we are still in the wilderness with social studies. It is clear that we still don't know what students should be getting out of these classes (6th to 12th grade). Is it critical reading/writing, actual historical knowledge, creating citizenship, developing basic reading and comprehension skills....

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by AENeuman

Philosophically, we are still in the wilderness with social studies. It is clear that we still don't know what students should be getting out of these classes (6th to 12th grade). Is it critical reading/writing, actual historical knowledge, creating citizenship, developing basic reading and comprehension skills....

My daughter takes the AP World History test this week, my son took it two years ago. I don't expect that either of them will be able to apply credits from the test to their college transcripts. I'm glad that they are getting some sense of the world around them and a general basis in history, but the primary benefits from the rigor of the course(s) as I see them are the reading/writing/comprehension skills. And to extend, the effect that having these skills will be useful 1) for future coursework and 2) for standardized testing (SAT).

Fairly or not, I regard AP World as being much more important for developing/having developed these skills than their English classes.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by AENeuman

I'm on the committee to pick the next social studies textbook publisher. It's been 14 years. Observations:
1. Actual content of textbook is never mentioned, which is still same, brief and boring writing.
2. It's all about digital bells an whistles. You can easily teach their curriculum with ever having to teach.
3. All the textbook companies now only sell subscriptions to online and digital access. This makes it massively expensive for districts- trickle down from the very successful college model

I think we are at least 5 years away from being able to know how to best use digital information in most public classrooms.

Philosophically, we are still in the wilderness with social studies. It is clear that we still don't know what students should be getting out of these classes (6th to 12th grade). Is it critical reading/writing, actual historical knowledge, creating citizenship, developing basic reading and comprehension skills....

I think a lot of what ails us as a society stems from Civics not being a required course. It would make sense to roll that into US History.

[RainMaker]

Ohio taxpayers got royally fucked.

https://www.daytondailynews.com/news...apQFlb5t8wLsJ/

https://www.motherjones.com/politics...just-imploded/

[BishopMVP]

Who could've predicted an online only "charter school" for HS dropouts - who argued that they didn't have to monitor whether students accessed the material and merely offering it was enough - would ever have less than pristine motives and book keeping?!?

[Edward64]

FWIW our kids went/are going to South Forsyth. Pretty impressive for school in suburbia of GA I think.

https://www.forsythnews.com/local/ed...s-report-says/

Each of Forsyth County Schools’ high schools with senior classes rank in the top 15 percent in the country, according to U.S. News & World Report.

The Washington, D.C.-based company released its 2019 Best High Schools on Tuesday, a “comprehensive evaluation” of more than 17,000 schools across the country.

The company, along with RTI International, a global research firm, ranked schools for the 2016-17 school year based on their students’ college readiness, math and reading performance and proficiency, graduation rates, the performance of underserved students and the number of students who participated in and passed a variety of college-level exams, according to a press release.

Lambert High School led the way, ranking in the top 1 percent of schools in the country and sixth among Georgia schools thanks to a high graduation rate (99 percent) as well as proficiency in reading (89 percent) and mathematics (87 percent) and the number of students who passed at least one AP exam (87 percent.)

South Forsyth ranked 13th in Georgia, followed by West Forsyth (28th), Forsyth Central (52nd) and North Forsyth (63rd).
:
:
National ranking

Lambert 229

South Forsyth 383

West Forsyth 849

Forsyth Central 2,105

North Forsyth 2,417

out of 17,245

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Edward64

FWIW our kids went/are going to South Forsyth. Pretty impressive for school in suburbia of GA I think.

Let me be clear, I'm not kicking dirt on what the Forsyth schools accomplish with what I'm about to point out. Lambert's reputation around the state is very solid & seems well-deserved, and to know what all the schools there have done despite the challenges of rapid growth (I worked in the area before the population explosion, I know quite well what the area was like historically) is impressive and commendable.

However ... to cast it as simply "suburbia" undersells the situation a bit IMO. It's the county with the highest median household income in the state AND the lowest poverty rate. It ain't exactly your average suburb, certainly not in recent years.

https://www.forsythnews.com/local/ed...s-report-says/[/quote]

[miked]

Wow, I had no idea about Forsyth, it's so far out there I had not considered it a suburb. All I hear around here is the greatness of East Cobb (Pope and Walton...looks like Walton is actually in Marietta) and Johns Creek schools, with a little bit of Decatur sprinkled in. Makes me thrilled about Lakeside and Dekalb.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by miked

Wow, I had no idea about Forsyth, it's so far out there I had not considered it a suburb. All I hear around here is the greatness of East Cobb (Pope and Osborne) and Johns Creek schools, with a little bit of Decatur sprinkled in. Makes me thrilled about Lakeside and Dekalb.

20 miles north of the perimeter on GA-400. Not sure the definition of suburbia but I consider it one.

[QuikSand]

Maryland is considering stepping into this policy argument of "pay teachers a lot more," and it's pretty interesting. We're generally a high-income, fairly high-tax-rate state, and while we have more diversity than most would suspect, we are among the top tier in terms of spending and salaries. Used to be reliably rated #1 by Education Week, more recently #5-6 or so.

However, a recent Commission has set goals on global competitiveness, and one major foundation of their plan is to push average teacher salaries to $94,000 in today's dollars. The thinking is - let's change mindsets about teaching, let's get really promising high school juniors and college sophomores to think about teaching as a first choice, rather than feeling like engineering or finance is better on account of remuneration. Interesting arguments floating all around in this debate. The costs of their plan are roughly $4 billion per year - in a state with about 6 million people, that's a pretty hefty price tag... maybe a couple thousand dollars for a typical family.

Election year was 2018. 2020 is year two of a four year cycle, arguably the ideal time to launch a big initiative like this, especially if it's attached to tax increases. Popular republican governor while the state is still pretty deep blue, and who is at least eyeing a political future within the party.

Fun stuff.

[digamma]

My sister is a teacher in Forsyth County. They've been incredibly creative about letting her design a curriculum around STEAM topics. She's currently teaching an online game design course. Really cool stuff.

[miked]

The idea of better schools for my kids is great. The idea of commuting to well ITP from Forsyth is terrifying. No rail system, I bet it would be 1-1.5 hours each way.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

The thinking is - let's change mindsets about teaching, let's get really promising high school juniors and college sophomores to think about teaching as a first choice, rather than feeling like engineering or finance is better on account of remuneration

How about middle-agers whenever they're ready for a second career?

(I had entertained the notion of at some point becoming a teacher, but wrote it off as an impossibility financially. Maybe someday it won't be -- if they're interested in new teachers in their 60s.)

[tarcone]

Teaching is a calling not a choice. Middle age people will struggle. It is nothing like anything they have ever faced.

its unfortunate that we pay teachers so little considering they deal with the countries greatest resource.
I hate that teaching is such an under appreciated profession.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Middle age people will struggle. It is nothing like anything they have ever faced.

It may be for some, but not others. I have known several people that have retired from other industries to become teachers late in life, including some teachers I had in high school during the caveman days. My son's favorite teacher right now is someone who retired young and very well off, and is now teaching just because he loves it. He is a fantastic teacher, and is able to teach some great real-world lessons (he has a fantastic class on investing).

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

It may be for some, but not others. I have known several people that have retired from other industries to become teachers late in life, including some teachers I had in high school during the caveman days. My son's favorite teacher right now is someone who retired young and very well off, and is now teaching just because he loves it. He is a fantastic teacher, and is able to teach some great real-world lessons (he has a fantastic class on investing).

Yes, you are right. Again, it is a calling and some realize it later than others.

My point, poorly stated, was that anyone just cant step into teaching. At any age.