Time Warner to test metered Internet Access

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by BrianD

Having spent many years working for Internet providers, I understand oversubscription quite well. If everyone started using more bandwidth, the shared connections would become saturated. I'm just curious if this is actually happening anywhere? My community is pretty small as well, so I never get reduced throughput. Are the major metro areas different in this regard?

My biggest complain with the tiered access is that if there are no throughput issues, they must have excess capacity. If there is excess capacity, I don't see why it matters how much anyone is downloading since it isn't affecting anyone else.

I assume someone somewhere does have this issue. I don't have any proof or anything of the like though but I know Cox Cable got into huge trouble a while back for very bad publicity due to their oversaturation of extremely oversubscribed lines. In TWC's case, I don't know if it is a concern of current bandwidth utilization or the amount of saturation that would occur due to various increased bandwidth that many customers are requesting.

[gstelmack]

The problem is that cable has an infrastructure where they have lots of these shared nodes. It's not just a problem for broadband cable, it's also an issue with TV in general. They are now using Switched Digital Video to provide more HD content, because the bandwidth they have available is so low. This means that only a limited number of channels can be sent to each node, and if everyone on that node wants a different channel some are going to get "channel unavailable". It's already happening in my area, and they keep trying to tweak node setups to deal with it.

They need to upgrade their infrastructure just to provide reliable TV service, let alone broadband internet. The cable TV infrastructure is having a hard time keeping up with the times.

Now compare that to Verizon FIOS which was being run out while TWC in my area was upgrading their service to provide broadband and HD TV. I think the cable companies need to be a bit more forward thinking when they do their upgrades...

[gstelmack]

Time Warner and Embarq (AT&T) are upset that Wilson, NC can provide much better service cheaper than they can:

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=14934

The upload speeds in particular have me drooling to be able to actually HOST a multiplayer game, let alone have the difficulty I do even playing in one with TWC's current setup...

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I assume someone somewhere does have this issue. I don't have any proof or anything of the like though but I know Cox Cable got into huge trouble a while back for very bad publicity due to their oversaturation of extremely oversubscribed lines. In TWC's case, I don't know if it is a concern of current bandwidth utilization or the amount of saturation that would occur due to various increased bandwidth that many customers are requesting.

Yes the problem happens from time to time. And what tech support is supposed to do is verify it's not a signal issue first, if it's determined it's not a signal issue a NOC ticket is created and work will be done to rectify the issue. No matter what anyone thinks it's not the company's intention to provide bad service. Bandwidth issues aren't always cut and dry, but there are ways to check nodes and CMTSs to see if they are being pegged or not.

[SportsDino]

LOL, like I said, most I hear coming out of politics these days are examples of companies killing new entrants. This is why the free market is failing. (referring to gstelmack's link about two posts up).

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Time Warner and Embarq (AT&T) are upset that Wilson, NC can provide much better service cheaper than they can:

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=14934

The upload speeds in particular have me drooling to be able to actually HOST a multiplayer game, let alone have the difficulty I do even playing in one with TWC's current setup...

Really difficulty playing a multiplayer game? If you are having issues with playing a game, i doubt it's a bandwidth issue, unless there is some type of expected latency on the network.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by BrianD

My biggest complain with the tiered access is that if there are no throughput issues, they must have excess capacity. If there is excess capacity, I don't see why it matters how much anyone is downloading since it isn't affecting anyone else.

The perceived excess capacity is (presuming you subscribe to a CATV HSD plan) because they have upgraded the HSD infrastructure before bandwidth demands have overtaken them. This is the way it is supposed to be appear to the consumer. But these types of upgrades happen all the time, in nearly every market, to meet or exceed demand for the next 2 years(most do not anticipate further than 2 years for the pure-HSD infrastructure due to technology changes and overall network architecture changes which could negate "overbuilding" too far).

In more population-consistent(or subscriber-consistent) markets, bandwidth demands are met more easily...in population growth or general high population centers, it can be a bit trickier to counter-act demand.

Local engineering competency for the CATV MSO also comes into play quite a bit. There are a lot of low-cost methods (depending on where your bottleneck occurs) to counter-act demand. Each market tends to vary in their ability to leverage existing resources, however.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

Really difficulty playing a multiplayer game? If you are having issues with playing a game, i doubt it's a bandwidth issue, unless there is some type of expected latency on the network.

I've had issues with Time Warner where the signal wildly rollercoasters up and down at times under the old plan that I used to be on. While you don't notice it too much when web browsing, it's a game killer for multiplayer games. I know this is a pretty common occurance in locations where the nodes are oversaturated in urban areas.

[Tekneek]

I suspect that this has much more to do with cable companies trying to protect their revenues. As people continue to drop premium packages, and some dropping pay tv completely, the cable companies are going to have to make up that shortfall somewhere. So they try to meter Internet usage, which will help them (1) make some extra bucks and (2) try to prevent people from watching all their "tv" programming from hulu, joost, and other places (where the cable company doesn't get a cut of the action).

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I've had issues with Time Warner where the signal wildly rollercoasters up and down at times under the old plan that I used to be on. While you don't notice it too much when web browsing, it's a game killer for multiplayer games. I know this is a pretty common occurance in locations where the nodes are oversaturated in urban areas.

That's the only thing I could guess. I can only work off of how I know we run our plant here.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

I suspect that this has much more to do with cable companies trying to protect their revenues. As people continue to drop premium packages, and some dropping pay tv completely, the cable companies are going to have to make up that shortfall somewhere. So they try to meter Internet usage, which will help them (1) make some extra bucks and (2) try to prevent people from watching all their "tv" programming from hulu, joost, and other places (where the cable company doesn't get a cut of the action).

This is pretty accurate if you look ahead a few years. Content providers all want to stream content directly to the user. Since net-neutrality does not allow CATV co's to assign priorities to certain traffic types or sources...they are basically forced into upgrading their plant to support this (or offer a poor internet connection to the consumer).

My opinion on what's called "over the top" content providers is that this is another one of those "sounds cool until you have to deal with the reality" type of scenarios. Not that overall bandwidth demands will decrease...but that the CATV co basically aggregates this content for you already, provides a common interface for accesssing it, and even gives you a box that they'll replace whenever it craps out or becomes technologically obsolete. None of these companies will ever (for any reliable duration) do this. Of course...if your particular CATV co does not offer certain content...the more technically apt may be inclined to go that route.

In the interest of disclosure I do work for a CATV co (though I've been a consultant for Verizon and AT&T in the past as well). The Telcos are winning the PR battle to date by just keeping their mouths shut. Realize that if tiered caps becomes the norm from CATV, the Telcos will do the same...after they get you to switch.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

In the interest of disclosure I do work for a CATV co (though I've been a consultant for Verizon and AT&T in the past as well). The Telcos are winning the PR battle to date by just keeping their mouths shut. Realize that if tiered caps becomes the norm from CATV, the Telcos will do the same...after they get you to switch.

And at the end of the day, end users/consumers/individuals lose. We already pay more for less than some other nations when it comes to Internet connectivity.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

Really difficulty playing a multiplayer game? If you are having issues with playing a game, i doubt it's a bandwidth issue, unless there is some type of expected latency on the network.

My TWC connection is a bit "bursty" which is difficult for action-oriented MP games like shooters. It's awesome for streaming downloads, but not quite so good for "I need this packet out now" MP gaming (i.e. the latency issue you are describing). It was my understanding that this is one of those limitations of DOCSIS 1 that DOCSIS 3 will help with, although I could be wrong on that.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

This is pretty accurate if you look ahead a few years. Content providers all want to stream content directly to the user. Since net-neutrality does not allow CATV co's to assign priorities to certain traffic types or sources...they are basically forced into upgrading their plant to support this (or offer a poor internet connection to the consumer).

My opinion on what's called "over the top" content providers is that this is another one of those "sounds cool until you have to deal with the reality" type of scenarios. Not that overall bandwidth demands will decrease...but that the CATV co basically aggregates this content for you already, provides a common interface for accesssing it, and even gives you a box that they'll replace whenever it craps out or becomes technologically obsolete. None of these companies will ever (for any reliable duration) do this. Of course...if your particular CATV co does not offer certain content...the more technically apt may be inclined to go that route.

In the interest of disclosure I do work for a CATV co (though I've been a consultant for Verizon and AT&T in the past as well). The Telcos are winning the PR battle to date by just keeping their mouths shut. Realize that if tiered caps becomes the norm from CATV, the Telcos will do the same...after they get you to switch.

One issue in all this that has caused problems for years now is the consolidation of the companies. Time Warner provides TV services, provides broadband services, and owns content providers (HBO, for example) that use both of those transport mechanisms, and this leads to conflicts of interest and decisions that benefit one side while hurting the other. The advantage of a setup like the one in Wilson is that they are only concerned with transport, and don't care which transport mechanism you use.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

One issue in all this that has caused problems for years now is the consolidation of the companies. Time Warner provides TV services, provides broadband services, and owns content providers (HBO, for example) that use both of those transport mechanisms, and this leads to conflicts of interest and decisions that benefit one side while hurting the other. The advantage of a setup like the one in Wilson is that they are only concerned with transport, and don't care which transport mechanism you use.

Time Warner Cable DOES NOT own content providers. Time Warner does own content providers and did own Time Warner Cable, but they aren't in the cable game anymore, TWC is a fully publicly owned company.

But I do understand what you are getting to. The CBB stuff didn't really start gaining speed until after the start of TWC sell off by TW.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

And at the end of the day, end users/consumers/individuals lose. We already pay more for less than some other nations when it comes to Internet connectivity.

Well...my post looks a bit more ominous than I intended it...but I suspect you'll see better pricing for lower tiers when consumers basically reject the higher priced tiers(which is inevitable IMO).

I know a lot of people have argued the costs vs. other nations, but IMHO, the comparisons are never really fair. The US consumer
(a) streams more content,
(b) downloads bigger files, and
(c) lives more sparsely.
And on a network which is
(a) maintained primarily by US salaries,
(b) has different legacy regulations, and
(c) offers more content on your schedule than any other country in the world.

Pure connection speeds should not be looked at as the ultimate tell-all due to various other offerings which all share the same transport medium.

But if you were to conclude that the US is still relatively more expensive and should still be cheaper...then CATV co's and Telcos could
(a) reduce employee overhead by lowering wages and/or outsourcing and/or using less employees and living with reduced capabilities (think they're bad now?) and/or live with lower profit margins(which gets them beat up on by shareholders),
(b) Not adopt newer technologies as quickly as they do today (i.e. spread their investments over longer periods and offer less over time),
(c) Stop being the stupidest industry in the US because all other large industries in the US are so much more sustainable.

I am generalizing severely in the interests of time and (writing) space, and this is certainly no comprehensive list, but I just don't think looking at a few other countries...with vastly different landscapes...justifies the sentiment that the US internet access providers are inadequately doing their job (not directing that to you Tekneek...just a general statement).

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

One issue in all this that has caused problems for years now is the consolidation of the companies. Time Warner provides TV services, provides broadband services, and owns content providers (HBO, for example) that use both of those transport mechanisms, and this leads to conflicts of interest and decisions that benefit one side while hurting the other. The advantage of a setup like the one in Wilson is that they are only concerned with transport, and don't care which transport mechanism you use.

What Dan said about TW vs. TWC.

I would just add that I agree in principle that today's content vs. delivery landscape is a bit more like grocery store chains. You have store brands, which are a bit cheaper and generally marketed a bit more...but it doesnt stop the truly unique products from being the best-sellers.

I know this is likely to get an "a-la-carte" response from somebody...but without being more of a windbag...I'll just say that it's decidedly less in the cable or telco co's hands than the content providers themselves.

[gstelmack]

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of a-la-carte.

Really, I'm happy with download speeds of my internet. I want TWC to improve my UPLOAD speeds, plus smooth out the bursty connection. That's what excites me about the fiber offerings from the telcos.

I don't currently stream movies or watch TV over the Internet right now, mostly because the quality is below what I get from TWC. However, as they compress to fit more channels in, that's getting close. I'm actually getting close to buying a Blu-Ray player and dumping the movie channels because I'm tired of pixellation in my action movies, or wash-out due to banding in low-contrast scenes in pretty much anything.

I am concerned about bandwidth caps because of things like Windows update, patches, and my gaming experience, completely unrelated to competing with TWC's video services.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

But if you were to conclude that the US is still relatively more expensive and should still be cheaper...then CATV co's and Telcos could
(a) reduce employee overhead by lowering wages and/or outsourcing and/or using less employees and living with reduced capabilities (think they're bad now?) and/or live with lower profit margins(which gets them beat up on by shareholders),
(b) Not adopt newer technologies as quickly as they do today (i.e. spread their investments over longer periods and offer less over time),
(c) Stop being the stupidest industry in the US because all other large industries in the US are so much more sustainable.

I know they would run off the lower paid employees, because that is the typical American corporate way. However, I suspect there is a much more significant difference in compensation as you go higher up the food chain (just like with other industries here compared to those in Japan).

I am not certain that we put higher demands on our systems than is done in Korea and Japan. For years I have read about how ahead of the curve people tend to be in those nations, compared to the United States.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

I am concerned about bandwidth caps because of things like Windows update, patches, and my gaming experience, completely unrelated to competing with TWC's video services.

Trust me when I say, you aren't the only one, I'm a big opponent to them myself.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

My TWC connection is a bit "bursty" which is difficult for action-oriented MP games like shooters. It's awesome for streaming downloads, but not quite so good for "I need this packet out now" MP gaming (i.e. the latency issue you are describing). It was my understanding that this is one of those limitations of DOCSIS 1 that DOCSIS 3 will help with, although I could be wrong on that.

This sounds like a signal issue. Network latency is actually not the biggest issue, network jitter is the real culprit (though latency is sometimes tagged to jitter problems). You can delay the packet by a few ms, so long as your jitter is consistent. But poor signal to/from your modem would certainly be "a" source of jitter to the TWC network. Assuming your TWC system techs/eng's are not completely inept, the problem is most likely the signal to/from your modem.

Have you called on this before? Do you know what your signal levels or C/N (carrier-to-noise) level is? Have they reported to you your upstream signal level?

DOCSIS 3.0 could possibly help once deployed. It will just give you a bigger pool of bandwidth to connect in than you would currently have.

[wade moore]

In my experience with cable companies (note: I've never had TWC) - it's not exactly easy to call and have them actually address issues like this. I just don't have the time/patience for a fight about their poor internet service.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

DOCSIS 3.0 could possibly help once deployed. It will just give you a bigger pool of bandwidth to connect in than you would currently have.

Of course if he's having signal issues today, they'd be even worse at DOCSIS 3.0 .

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by wade moore

In my experience with cable companies (note: I've never had TWC) - it's not exactly easy to call and have them actually address issues like this. I just don't have the time/patience for a fight about their poor internet service.

Maybe this is your problem, you look at it as "a fight".

[gstelmack]

Yeah, I'm probably due for a signal strength visit. We had the line from the curb to the house replaced once (just after getting phone service) because it was 149 feet long, and the 150-foot rated cable wasn't cutting it.

But I've had signal strength tested once a few months back when we had a pay-per-view movie issue, they just may have focused only on the one TV.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

Maybe this is your problem, you look at it as "a fight".

I'm not the one that makes it a fight.

I don't have time/patience to sit there for 2 hours while they try to blame it on everything else on the moon before settling on actually doing something about their problem.

[lordscarlet]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

Maybe this is your problem, you look at it as "a fight".

Um, yeah, keep living in your little box. There's a reason cable companies have severely low customer service ratings. EVEYRONE sees it is a fight. If you call the cable company, they assume its' your fault. If they troubleshoot all of the problems in the script, they assume you have something out of the ordinary that you aren't telling them. If you DO manage to get a techniciation out, they give you a 4-8 hour window that they MAY show up on time for. When they do get there, they often say "I can't do this, someone more skilled has to come out" and then no one ever follows up to make that appointment unless you call 5 times. Keep arguing that this doesn't happen, but everyone who doesn't work for TWC on this board knows that it does.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

Maybe this is your problem, you look at it as "a fight".

I'll side with Wade on this one. It's extremely difficult to make any headway with support for an issue where you have periodic issues rather than a consistently lower speeed of signal. My internet would cruise along for 15-20 minutes with no hiccups only to have a signal drop of 30 seconds or so with no service at all. I can usually tell pretty easily at night when it happens when I'm playing poker online. The tables would just freeze, only to later come back a hand or two later. Same thing would happen to my wife when she was working and downloading files.

When you call them, you just have to pray it happens while their monitoring your line. Otherwise, they just give you the 'everything seems to be working fine' response. It's extremely frustrating and you often have to battle with the initial technician who is doing little more than going through a script before you get to someone who might be able to get to the meat of the issue. Even then, you'll be lucky if you actually get some help.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by wade moore

I'm not the one that makes it a fight.

I don't have time/patience to sit there for 2 hours while they try to blame it on everything else on the moon before settling on actually doing something about their problem.

If the tools they have access too aren't showing problems with the service, it can be difficult to get down to what the problem is. Which is one of the unfortunate things. Something I always ended having to deal with was customers flat out lying over the phone to me, something I would usually always catch them in with the way I did my troubleshooting.

[lordscarlet]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

If the tools they have access too aren't showing problems with the service, it can be difficult to get down to what the problem is. Which is one of the unfortunate things. Something I always ended having to deal with was customers flat out lying over the phone to me, something I would usually always catch them in with the way I did my troubleshooting.

See, you think it's the customer's fault. That is not the way to run a business or support structure. People lie because they know that the poor service will be even poorer if they have any setup out of the ordinary because the techs on the phone are ill prepared to handle out of the ordinary, but not extraordinary setups. We have been trained to lie by the poor service in the past. I don't lie to my plumber, mechanic or electrician. But if I have two routers daisy chained because one the modem is broken in adn the other the wireless signal is broken in, I'm not going to mention it to the technician because they will stop just short of hanging up on me.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

I know they would run off the lower paid employees, because that is the typical American corporate way. However, I suspect there is a much more significant difference in compensation as you go higher up the food chain (just like with other industries here compared to those in Japan).

Yeah...that is how it would happen. Then the mid-level or middle income employees would get squeezed for more productivity until they quit or can be replaced cheaper.

I am not certain that we put higher demands on our systems than is done in Korea and Japan. For years I have read about how ahead of the curve people tend to be in those nations, compared to the United States.

Yeah, not really demand on purely internet connections...but moreso on the video & voice which is shared on the same transport medium (i.e. fiber, hardline, twisted pair, coax, etc.). I also can't stress enough how costly the distance between dwellings in the US vs. other countries really does play a substantial role.

Couple that with the fact that cities like Tokyo took a more proactive approach with their civil infrastracture to allow for ease of replacing and upgrading electric, fiber, and other utility-type services. I'm not trying to make excuses for US companies overall...but it isn't quite as cut & dry as many think.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

If the tools they have access too aren't showing problems with the service, it can be difficult to get down to what the problem is. Which is one of the unfortunate things. Something I always ended having to deal with was customers flat out lying over the phone to me, something I would usually always catch them in with the way I did my troubleshooting.

You don't need to give me the sob story.

I have been in the Help Desk industry for over a decade and managed Help Desks for almost as long.

The way the cable companies handle this is complete poor business. I know that right now my connection drops (as MBBF said above) say... 4-5 times a night if I'm on for 2-3 hours. But the connection is perfectly fine outside of those times.

I bought a new router because of the last time that the idiots at the cable company wouldn't give me the time of day.

It did nothing (shocker).

It's just not worth my time. I would give my 1st born to have FiOS become available in my area.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

If the tools they have access too aren't showing problems with the service, it can be difficult to get down to what the problem is. Which is one of the unfortunate things. Something I always ended having to deal with was customers flat out lying over the phone to me, something I would usually always catch them in with the way I did my troubleshooting.

I hate to say it, but in my experience (I've used Comcast, Cox, Charter, Verizon, RCN in the past 10 years, don't remember who before that), but most providers first level of tech support do not have the training necessary to make proper diagnosis of difficult network communication issues. I also find that unfortunately usually the level 2 techs aren't always the best either, but most at least have some knowledge of the equipment.

When you encounter a scenerio where a home user (whether they think they know alot about networking or not) calls a provider's tech support with an issue "Slow internet", the end result usually won't be too pretty unless it is one of about 40 "easy" to spot and fix scenarios that most entry level techs are trained on. This however is not an issue only with cable internet providers, it is more an issue with companies not being able to afford proper training of front line support (or they are just outsourcing it all to some call center who knows where).

The worst experience I ever had was with Cox Cable back about 8 years ago where it was obvious that one of their routers (two hops down from me) were having problems with excessive packet drops which was causing problems with VPN for me. After trying to explain the issue to their tech support for nearly three weeks (keep in mind, I have more cisco certifications then any of those techs combined probably), it ended up just being futile. So my only recourse that I could find was that I switched to their business cable. Once on that, the problem didn't disappear (since it used the same shared hardware), but the difference was that I finally got techs who actually understand networking. Finally I got in touch with one of the regional techs who found the issue that I reported and it was solved within 2-3 weeks later.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by lordscarlet

See, you think it's the customer's fault. That is not the way to run a business or support structure. People lie because they know that the poor service will be even poorer if they have any setup out of the ordinary because the techs on the phone are ill prepared to handle out of the ordinary, but not extraordinary setups. We have been trained to lie by the poor service in the past. I don't lie to my plumber, mechanic or electrician. But if I have two routers daisy chained because one the modem is broken in adn the other the wireless signal is broken in, I'm not going to mention it to the technician because they will stop just short of hanging up on me.

I'm sure there are people that don't know what they are doing when they call in some cases, but the level of work it takes as a consumer to actually get passed the 'did you unplug your modem' and 'do you have XXXXXX attached to your network' is exhausting. My wife often doesn't even bother to call support any more for that very reason. She just lets me do the dirty work when I get home. Much like many consumers, the first chance I get to go to an alternative to Time Warner that meets my wife's working needs, I'm gone. It's just way too big of a headache. For now, I have little choice outside of DSL (which isn't fast enough) until better alternatives come along. Those alternatives are supposed to be here in the next 1-2 years in our area.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by wade moore

It's just not worth my time. I would give my 1st born to have FiOS become available in my area.

FIOS isn't any better in regards to what you are talking about. The only difference is their roll out is newer equipment, less subscriptions and it allows for a better overall experience.

If you actually run into problems with your FIOS connectivity, you will run into the same exact problem that you have with any other cable provider. When I have issues with my FIOS connectivity and call for tech support, I usually can tell after the first 5 minutes if I'm better off just hanging up and re-calling to get a new tech. Their most popular answer to anything is to reset the router. If/when that doesn't resolve anything, you usually end up getting pushed off to their second level support and waiting 2+ days for a call that never is returned

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Alan T

So my only recourse that I could find was that I switched to their business cable. Once on that, the problem didn't disappear (since it used the same shared hardware), but the difference was that I finally got techs who actually understand networking. Finally I got in touch with one of the regional techs who found the issue that I reported and it was solved within 2-3 weeks later.

Once I switched from consumer to business service, the support level was night and day. It's somewhat embarrassing to see the difference in how the two services are handled in regards to support. When I call business support here, I get one of about three guys in a local service office who often know my account from previous service calls. It's a huge difference from the level of staff on the regular support lines.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I'm sure there are people that don't know what they are doing when they call in some cases, but the level of work it takes as a consumer to actually get passed the 'did you unplug your modem' and 'do you have XXXXXX attached to your network' is exhausting. My wife often doesn't even bother to call support any more for that very reason. She just lets me do the dirty work when I get home. Much like many consumers, the first chance I get to go to an alternative to Time Warner that meets my wife's working needs, I'm gone. It's just way too big of a headache. For now, I have little choice outside of DSL (which isn't fast enough) until better alternatives come along. Those alternatives are supposed to be here in the next 1-2 years in our area.

Now that I am done arguing against the cable providers in my last few posts, time for me to argue -FOR- them here

Unfortunately there are way too many people who think because they know how to connect up their linksys router and connect it so 3 computers and an XBOX at home work, they are suddenly experts in the field. Most support desks have to assume that the end user does not know everything, and they have to still go through their checklist of steps to rule out any obvious issues. The reason for this is to save the time of the more expensive higher level techs that I actually need that time to solve the really difficult problems and not when Joe User assumes he knows what he is doing and swears that it is not any of the first 4 or 5 possible symptoms.

Of course there is a reason why I haven't done network tech support for a decade, and stick primarily to network engineering, I don't have much tolerance for most of my end users either.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by lordscarlet

Um, yeah, keep living in your little box. There's a reason cable companies have severely low customer service ratings. EVEYRONE sees it is a fight. If you call the cable company, they assume its' your fault. If they troubleshoot all of the problems in the script, they assume you have something out of the ordinary that you aren't telling them. If you DO manage to get a techniciation out, they give you a 4-8 hour window that they MAY show up on time for. When they do get there, they often say "I can't do this, someone more skilled has to come out" and then no one ever follows up to make that appointment unless you call 5 times. Keep arguing that this doesn't happen, but everyone who doesn't work for TWC on this board knows that it does.

I've said this doesn't happen? please show me those posts...

I've said this happens, I know it happens, but it also know it shouldn't be happening.

We do a lot of things here in LA to prevent them from happening. Our fulfillment technicians go through 16 weeks of training before they are on their own, we've developed a training curriculum that encompasses all three services CATV, HSO, and Digital Phone, along with a mentoring program that utilizes experienced veteran techs. A majority of our time frames are 2 hour, but as with any service, the sooner you want your service installed/fixed the less options you have as the calendar fills up 4 our appointments fill in the gaps that the 2 hours ones didn't. Technicians that come to your door are only trained to fix problems from the port on the tap to the CPE (customer premise eq) in your house, so if the problem is a signal issue that isn't something with the drop or runs in your house he can't fix it. If it's determined that it's a problem with the Tap or something up the line, then a Maintenance tech is called out to service it. Maintenance issues are handled same day probably about upwards of 50% of the time, and 95% of the time within 24 hours because if they aren't the Maintenance techs are ding on their monthly reviews.

Not to mention we don't charge the customer for any service calls regardless of where the problem is located or who is at fault.

I hear lots of complaints that cable companies should hire more qualified people and do this and do that, but no one ever wants to pay more for their service.

Anyway, I'm always as open and honest about the industry as possible, but I'm just cheerleader according to you.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by lordscarlet

See, you think it's the customer's fault. That is not the way to run a business or support structure. People lie because they know that the poor service will be even poorer if they have any setup out of the ordinary because the techs on the phone are ill prepared to handle out of the ordinary, but not extraordinary setups. We have been trained to lie by the poor service in the past. I don't lie to my plumber, mechanic or electrician. But if I have two routers daisy chained because one the modem is broken in adn the other the wireless signal is broken in, I'm not going to mention it to the technician because they will stop just short of hanging up on me.

And you called into me, I wouldn't support you till you had 1 single computer connected directly. I'm not going to troubleshoot your network, especially if I see no problem with the cable modem.

[gstelmack]

While we're telling stories, my favorite was my last tech support call to Concentric (I switched to Mindspring right after). This was in the days of modems and calling in to rolling banks of modems, and dealing with periodic broken modems. I knew the issue was a bad modem on the other end because of the error code my modem was giving me, but the tech would not listen and made me jump through hoops, when all I wanted was for them to leave a note for whoever maintained the modem bank (basically file a bug report). The error I was getting was pretty clear about what was going on, but that wasn't on her trouble-shooting checklist, so it did not matter, and she wanted me to do a whole bunch of steps I did not have time for.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

While we're telling stories, my favorite was my last tech support call to Concentric (I switched to Mindspring right after). This was in the days of modems and calling in to rolling banks of modems, and dealing with periodic broken modems. I knew the issue was a bad modem on the other end because of the error code my modem was giving me, but the tech would not listen and made me jump through hoops, when all I wanted was for them to leave a note for whoever maintained the modem bank (basically file a bug report). The error I was getting was pretty clear about what was going on, but that wasn't on her trouble-shooting checklist, so it did not matter, and she wanted me to do a whole bunch of steps I did not have time for.

Good to see the change in support methods over 20-25 years.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

And you called into me, I wouldn't support you till you had 1 single computer connected directly. I'm not going to troubleshoot your network, especially if I see no problem with the cable modem.

This is basically the difference between regular customer support and business customer support at Time Warner. Regular support assumes it's your problem. Business support allows much more leeway to diagnose the issue without playing all the 'dummy cards'.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

This is basically the difference between regular customer support and business customer support at Time Warner. Regular support assumes it's your problem. Business support allows much more leeway to diagnose the issue without playing all the 'dummy cards'.

Actually I did business support for my last 4 years and that was pretty much policy. We were only responsible up to the router/modem we installed.

[SirFozzie]

The sad thing is that the Internet is exploding in highly technical countries where they have speeds we can only dream of.. while here, we're trying to turn the clock backwards. It speaks of the growing technology gap between us and the top developed nations.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

And you called into me, I wouldn't support you till you had 1 single computer connected directly. I'm not going to troubleshoot your network, especially if I see no problem with the cable modem.

I gotta side with DG. May not be true for the majority of people on this board because it's a different subset of computer users. But, come on- it's like this all across the computer troubleshooting spectrum from network to hardware to software. This isn't something unique to cable companies. You get passed around by people who always think it's something else.

Because, you know what- usually it is. Again, maybe not for the majority of people on this board, but for the majority of people out there. Networking problems in my experience are typically found between keyboard and seat. So, yeah, it's not their responsibility to troubleshoot your entire networking infrastructure because you don't know how to set up your router or configure your firewall. That's your own damn problem, not CableCo's (or, in my personal experience, the hardware vendor's).

I spent hours a week working on people's laptops because of network problems only to be stuck troubleshooting their network problems and basically setting up their network for free. It took away from me helping the customers who were paying for legit warranty support, which isn't fair to them.

SI

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

The sad thing is that the Internet is exploding in highly technical countries where they have speeds we can only dream of.. while here, we're trying to turn the clock backwards. It speaks of the growing technology gap between us and the top developed nations.

This becomes another aside, but, hell, let's go there.

So, what's the answer? We have the world's largest economy by a longshot but we can't do "simple" things like this. You have people who scream and shout any time the government wants to invest in this sort of infrastructure.

And the free market isn't going to do anything that will cost them a buck. With a bunch of oligopolies running our every business, the best thing for them is to all match service levels and squabble over a couple of bucks of pricing. And anyone who wants to change or come into business has monumental entry barriers erected by these huge companies who are large enough to throw around their influence in our government.

SI

[SirFozzie]

end the oligopolies. Mandate the highest level of performance, or their exclusitivity ends. Let local townships and governments build up their own networks in areas that aren't being fully served.

[gstelmack]

One step forward was North Carolina ending municipality-based franchises and going to state-wide franchises. This will help open up competition. I do so wish Cary had gone forward with their early proposal to do their own network (they were already running fiber for traffic signal synchronization and other town functions), but I think this measure has them waiting to see if competition will enter. And we do now have AT&T U-Verse becoming available. I'd really like to see a third-party enter the fray that isn't satellite (where trees cause me an issue), because I agree that for the most part AT&T and TWC will settle into an uneasy truce, although AT&T's higher broadband speed may push DOCSIS 3 or other improvements on TWC to get higher service levels.

[wade moore]

When I have dealt with these types of issues in the past I went direct from modem to computer.

The issues persisted.

Still no help from them.

Again, I've run Help Desks for years. I understand the perspective that it is usually the end user at fault - but it has to stop somewhere.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by wade moore

When I have dealt with these types of issues in the past I went direct from modem to computer.

The issues persisted.

Still no help from them.

Again, I've run Help Desks for years. I understand the perspective that it is usually the end user at fault - but it has to stop somewhere.

And it should have. They should be fixing the problem. I can't remember who your CATV company is, but if you are still having problems you may want to see if there is a contact via twitter or phone or whatever for their Office of the President, since your local office doesn't seem to care.