Time Warner to test metered Internet Access

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

And it should have. They should be fixing the problem. I can't remember who your CATV company is, but if you are still having problems you may want to see if there is a contact via twitter or phone or whatever for their Office of the President, since your local office doesn't seem to care.

You can also possibly use the Better business Bureau to help as well if they truly aren't offering proper levels of service. I had to file a complaint with the BBB about Charter cable a while back due to them canceling repeated scheduled appointments (causing me to miss work multiple times) and then threatening to sue me for over $1200.00 if I didn't send equipment back to them. So I opened a case with the BBB regarding the issue and provided all of the documentation for the previously scheduled appointments and the overall issue.

Within 2 or 3 days I received a call from Charter's corporate office and had a scheduled appointment that they kept within the week. Everything was settled and I've moved on beyond that now.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

end the oligopolies. Mandate the highest level of performance, or their exclusitivity ends. Let local townships and governments build up their own networks in areas that aren't being fully served.

There actually are quite a few municipal companies that have done this, for many of those reasons.

The pro's are that they tend to rollout a solid product offering initially for a very reasonable cost to the consumer (since they aren't beholden to shareholders and maximized profits...just sustainability).

The con's are that they don't tend to keep up and adapt quickly to future technology changes due to limited consumer bases, so they typically end up falling behind in just a few years from an offering standpoint. Couple that with their limited buying power from vendor companies and they tend to (though not all) become yesterday's technology companies(moreso than your typical CATV or Telco even).

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

There actually are quite a few municipal companies that have done this, for many of those reasons.

The pro's are that they tend to rollout a solid product offering initially for a very reasonable cost to the consumer (since they aren't beholden to shareholders and maximized profits...just sustainability).

The con's are that they don't tend to keep up and adapt quickly to future technology changes due to limited consumer bases, so they typically end up falling behind in just a few years from an offering standpoint. Couple that with their limited buying power from vendor companies and they tend to (though not all) become yesterday's technology companies(moreso than your typical CATV or Telco even).

I am not a huge fan of local towns doing this for the same reasons you said. I don't think I could have written it much better myself.

The issue with technology is that it obsoletes itself fairly quickly.

[SportsDino]

I don't like the notion of relying on city government companies too much, but if a city votes to use city funds for it, more power to them. Private companies behaving badly does not have to be tolerated, if there are extreme cases I think a city should be allowed to seek alternative routes.

I'd much prefer that these same citizens, instead of paying higher taxes or raising city debt, were able to quickly create a corporation for the purposes of upgrading the internet infrastructure... and make a business out of it. And have governments clean up any and all barriers in their way (exclusive agreements are teh most uncapitalist bullshit that has become overly common). For-profit businesses, founded because the market was not providing a solution.

If that was done and encouraged, we do something amazing... create new companies, that compete, and create jobs... and even the big boys would have to play price wars with a bigger pool. Creating new focused businesses should be a GOAL of our economy... the trend towards mass homogenization and the idea of 'scale over all' has ran amuck, and we end up with unwieldly oligopolies that do not truly provide service, although they play the hardball games better than anyone (like hitting up politicians with their massive lobbies).

I'm expecting the counter argument about 'they built the infrastructure, they can do what they want'... in my opinion that is biased by the nature of granting exclusive bids in the past... and in any case, suggests them running a infrastructure company instead of customer service. (i.e. make a small public company that deals with the citizens and can choose multiple big infrastructure companies to purchase from).

Its the American way!

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by SportsDino

I'm expecting the counter argument about 'they built the infrastructure, they can do what they want'... in my opinion that is biased by the nature of granting exclusive bids in the past... and in any case, suggests them running a infrastructure company instead of customer service. (i.e. make a small public company that deals with the citizens and can choose multiple big infrastructure companies to purchase from).

Its the American way!

This is slightly similar to most city outskirts of India (at least as of about 2-3 years ago). The "last mile" was owned by a myriad of "Mom & Pop" infrastructure providers and the "Service" was sent by a bigger company.

The problems that exist with that model has a good many layers, but here are a few:
1) No standardization on plant characteristics between Infr co's
2) No standardization of the plant leads to basic levels of service (think analog and very basic digital w/ maybe a couple of ppv ch's).
3) Tracking subscribers is nearly impossible in this scenario, since the Infr co's basically lie to the Content co's...so in turn the Content co's lie to the Broadcast co's...which means inaccurate subscriber #'s to get adequate revenue thru advertisers, etc.

They actually have a few initiatives to deploy better Conditional Access Systems (CAS) across these outskirt scenarios...but it ain't easy when you have a lot of chefs in the kitchen.

[SportsDino]

Well, that is India!

I know its not a clap and it is so sort of thing, but it fits right in with the values we are supposed to support in this country (and really what we need to solve the problem IMHO), which is good old entrepeneurial spirit and competitive companies.

I think we could hash out a better system, it would have some growing pains, but that is what the whole idea of capitalism is about. Lately it just seems we have subordinated everything to 'the big boys' and progress and usefulness to the public seem to move at whatever rate they decide. Like in this case, you have someone with stranglehold market shares, deciding to just ignore markets because they want to tap what they consider to be more lucrative areas. That is all well and fine, but traditionally, another company with a different marginal interest would come in, and profit off the gap (if there was a profit to be made, if the return is simply not there, it dies off, i.e. growing pains).

What we have now is government protected monopolies, that decrease the speed, ability, and profitability of filling those gaps. I just think, especially given recent economic calamity, that spreading the eggs across more baskets will be healthier, and lead to greater overall real growth (one of those oddities of economics, an increase in failed investments can still yield a higher net growth than a manged economy with guaranteed investments).

I don't think standardization will prove the biggest barrier to such a scheme, especially if the mom & pop city-sized internet businesses are mostly buying their equipment from the same players TWC, Comcast, and AT&T are. The biggest barrier will be those big companies trying to throw roadblocks up, either through political maneavures, or trying to aggressively price-war out startups (i.e. discount until its on the ropes, then return to extraction price schemes like the GB cap meters we are seeing here).

[sterlingice]

Problem is what we always run into with trying to turn a profit from things that should be provided to society as infrastructure. It's hard to regulate and standardize because the companies providing don't give two craps about quality, just about making a buck. Instead, we pick bad choice number two which is "let basically monopolies handle things because it provides a de facto standardization (since it's all within one company and they benefit from economies of scale)".

SI

[lordscarlet]

Sorry for the lack of quoting, but...

You're going to blame Wade for being the one that makes it a "fight" and then tell him he needs to search twitter and the interent for the presiden'ts number to solve a problem? Do you see why people fight with you about this topic? Even if you don't like my implication that you have said these things don't happen, you are, at a minimum, an apologists. You act like, supposedly, your specific branch has taken measures to prevent this problem. You may not have come right out and said that we're full of shit, but you certainly imply that all of these problems are our fault. That the cable companies are doing everything they can and providing a good service. The fact is, they don't. I have never heard someone with a turnaround on signal problems shorter than a week. That is after the 3 hour phone run around, 4 hour waiting time for an on-call techniciation, 2 hour service call, and perhaps a call to the President of the company.

Imagine if you had to go through that to get your car fixed. First, the mechanic assumes that you probably put peanut butter in the gas tank. So he has some lacky walk through the process of how you take care of your car. Then, after 2 hours of him walking off to do something else for 20 minutes, he finally decides he doesn't know what th eproblem is. Then a slightly more qualified mechanic comes to make sure you pressed teh gas peddle and not the break. Then, finally, after talking to that guy for 2 hours (after the 4 hour wait to see him), he says "we'll call you when it's convenient and have a mechanic take a look." You then hope and pray he actually gives you a call so you don't have to do it all over again before he actually does the work.

I know I'm comparing apples and oranges, but that's what it's like.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Problem is what we always run into with trying to turn a profit from things that should be provided to society as infrastructure. It's hard to regulate and standardize because the companies providing don't give two craps about quality, just about making a buck. Instead, we pick bad choice number two which is "let basically monopolies handle things because it provides a de facto standardization (since it's all within one company and they benefit from economies of scale)".

SI

That's it pretty much.

All CATV companies started out as small co's that served a small area (for those of you that don't know... CATV stands for "Community Antenna TeleVision"...not "Cable TV", though most use it interchangeably).

The small co's were eventually bought out by other small co's, which became medium co's, which bought other small and medium co's, and so on.

You could certainly make a case for nationalizing energy, water, internet, etc. in the interests of assuring cutting-edge, well-priced services...but where do you draw the line? And what are the unintended consequences?

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

All CATV companies started out as small co's that served a small area (for those of you that don't know... CATV stands for "Community Antenna TeleVision"...not "Cable TV", though most use it interchangeably).

Back in the early 80s we actually called it something slightly different "Community Access Television" instead, but I honestly don't know which acronym came first though.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by lordscarlet

Sorry for the lack of quoting, but...

You're going to blame Wade for being the one that makes it a "fight" and then tell him he needs to search twitter and the interent for the presiden'ts number to solve a problem? Do you see why people fight with you about this topic? Even if you don't like my implication that you have said these things don't happen, you are, at a minimum, an apologists. You act like, supposedly, your specific branch has taken measures to prevent this problem. You may not have come right out and said that we're full of shit, but you certainly imply that all of these problems are our fault. That the cable companies are doing everything they can and providing a good service. The fact is, they don't. I have never heard someone with a turnaround on signal problems shorter than a week. That is after the 3 hour phone run around, 4 hour waiting time for an on-call techniciation, 2 hour service call, and perhaps a call to the President of the company.

I offered a suggestion, I apologize for trying to help, but unfortunately you guys and I don't see eye to eye to eye when it comes to this topic because you HATE cable companies, period. I've really had enough of the two of you constantly teaming up on me when it comes to this, alright I get it.

I'll once again state there are a number of employees at these businesses that do care about doing things right and helping customers, and that's what you and your brother both fail to comprehend. Do things always work out perfect, nope they don't and I'll never claim it is perfect, but there are things in place to try and limit problems.

It partly is your fault because you let them get away with it, you continue to subscribe.

You may have never heard of that type of a turnaround, but I do, everyday.

But whatever, you keep living in your world of Cablesucks.

[lordscarlet]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

I offered a suggestion, I apologize for trying to help, but unfortunately you guys and I don't see eye to eye to eye when it comes to this topic because you HATE cable companies, period. I've really had enough of the two of you constantly teaming up on me when it comes to this, alright I get it.

I'll once again state there are a number of employees at these businesses that do care about doing things right and helping customers, and that's what you and your brother both fail to comprehend. Do things always work out perfect, nope they don't and I'll never claim it is perfect, but there are things in place to try and limit problems.

It partly is your fault because you let them get away with it, you continue to subscribe.

You may have never heard of that type of a turnaround, but I do, everyday.

But whatever, you keep living in your world of Cablesucks.

First of all, Wade and I hardly the only ones complaining about it, so I don't know why we're being singled out besides the fact that we are brothers.

The problem is that these supposed things put in place to correct the process seem to affect, at best, 10% of the customers. It's great that there are employees that care, I also know a lot of federal employees that actually do work instead of sleeping at their desks. Does that mean that the federal government is not incredibly inefficient and isn't in serious need of accountability for federal employees? no.

And, as I have said numerous time, it is not my fault. I have never paid my own money to a cable provider. I merely know what other people go through. Perhaps LA has a bubble of great support, but I know of no such quality on the east coast.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Back in the early 80s we actually called it something slightly different "Community Access Television" instead, but I honestly don't know which acronym came first though.

I've usually heard Community Access used to describe local community channels (a precursor to PEG ch's...or Public, Educational, Government). I've always seen it abbreviated as CAT.

Community Antenna was the original letter meaning due to over the air broadcast (hence the Community Antenna used to receive it) and subsequent distribution.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

It partly is your fault because you let them get away with it, you continue to subscribe.

Unfortunately I live in an area where competition is scarce. So, I live with what I have. My service is a lot better here than the house I just left a year ago, so I've got that going for me. But still, when/if FiOS becomes available I will jump ship. If another cable internet provider became available I might even jump ship.

In all honesty it's just not that important to me now. I used to game a lot on the internet, download a lot of files, etc. But, I'm at a point now where I play NCAA on the rare occasion online for the dynasty I'm in here and otherwise the biggest files I d/l are FOF MP files. So, for me now dealing with the 30 second blips while surfing the web for a few hours is less hassle than trying to get it fixed. It's a sad state, but that's the decision I've made based on my previous experience when it impacted me a lot more.

I think these threads get so heated because, as LS said, you come off as an "apologist" for something that many of us have had very, very bad experiences with. I know you're trying to help, but it comes off in the wrong way to me. I know how customer service is. I know that for all of the good things you do everyone focuses on the bad. I get that. But the bad stereotypes, in the end, are there for a reason.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by lordscarlet

First of all, Wade and I hardly the only ones complaining about it, so I don't know why we're being singled out besides the fact that we are brothers.

Brothers from a different mother?

[lordscarlet]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Brothers from a different mother?

Nope, same one. Popped out 7 minutes apart.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Love the advertisement from Frontier aimed squarely at TW.......

Stop the Cap! · Competitors Kick Back At Cable’s Cap Campaign - Lowers Prices/Attacks Caps to Attract New Customers

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Pretty slimy stuff from Time Warner. They're trying to alter the subscription agreement to allow them to implement metered usage without getting full consumer authorization. They're organizing a grass-roots movement starting today over at 'Stop the Cap!' to try to head this change off..........

Stop the Cap! » Blog Archive » They’re Back: Time Warner Cable Adds Cap ‘n Tier Language to Subscriber Agreements

[RainMaker]

Will be interesting to see how this is handled through the FTC now that Obama is President. He has close ties to Google which were initially for net neutrality but have seemingly changed their tune of late. One of the main reasons I voted for him was his stance on net neutrality.

[gstelmack]

They are welcome to try what they want. Between this and the HDNet issue, I'm eagerly awaiting UVerse in this area. They may not be any better, but once TWC loses a bunch of customers and gets their act together, then I can go back...

[RainMaker]

AT&T is blocking popular site 4chan (or portions of it).

AT&T Reportedly Blocks 4chan. This Is Going To Get Ugly.

Start entering dangerous territory when ISPs have the power to block sites they don't like or even competition.

[gstelmack]

Never heard of 4chan. Reading that sounds like they blocked parts of it not the whole thing, and there were reasons. What were those sections up to? How above-board is 4chan vs being a hacker haven?

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

AT&T is blocking popular site 4chan (or portions of it).

AT&T Reportedly Blocks 4chan. This Is Going To Get Ugly.

Start entering dangerous territory when ISPs have the power to block sites they don't like or even competition.

From everything I read, this news story is trying to make a story out of a non-story. As far as I understood, the partial access block was due to a denial of service attack that was occuring. AT&T was not the only one that blocked that address, as other providers did as well.

Now that the DoS attack has been taken care of, my understanding is most of the providers that did block that attack have since allowed access once again.

[RainMaker]

The whole thing seems odd. AT&T eventually stated that there were conditions that 4chan needed to meet. 4chan owner said he never received any e-mail from AT&T. After a rather large internet uproar Yesterday, they pulled the block.

I don't think anyone will ever get the real story about it, but I've never seen an ISP block a major site because of a DDOS attack before.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The whole thing seems odd. AT&T eventually stated that there were conditions that 4chan needed to meet. 4chan owner said he never received any e-mail from AT&T. After a rather large internet uproar Yesterday, they pulled the block.

I don't think anyone will ever get the real story about it, but I've never seen an ISP block a major site because of a DDOS attack before.

AT&T wasn't the only one to block that particular IP address. Also keep in mind that AT&T didn't block the entire site, just the particular IP address (which blocked some content but not other content from that site).

I don't in any way work for AT&T, use AT&T service, or work for any cable provider or ISP or anything. I just think this is a whole bunch of people on the internet jumping on the overly eager report from the dailykos to try to bash providers any chance that they can get.

There are legitimate cases for people to get angry about their providers over.. but this honestly is not one of them. This type of thing happens all of the time, if one of my sites is being attacked in a DoS that seems to be originating due to an IP address, I'll block it too and contact the registered owner of that address space. This is what it sounds like happened here , and the owner of the hosting facility where 4chan's systems are hosted also agrees that he was involved in it as well.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I don't in any way work for AT&T, use AT&T service, or work for any cable provider or ISP or anything. I just think this is a whole bunch of people on the internet jumping on the overly eager report from the dailykos to try to bash providers any chance that they can get.

That's the impression I get when I read the reports, including 4chan's own responses. It's like Iran blaming the West for their uprisings...

[RainMaker]

There are DoS attacks daily online and I've never seen them block a major site before.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

There are DoS attacks daily online and I've never seen them block a major site before.

Well, I get the impression that you have an agenda here, so I'll leave it at that then I figured my opinion as a network engineer might be useful in this conversation, but I don't want to get in the way of any really good conspiracies!

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Well, I get the impression that you have an agenda here, so I'll leave it at that then I figured my opinion as a network engineer might be useful in this conversation, but I don't want to get in the way of any really good conspiracies!

For the record...and to the point you are not making...while in charge of technical operations at a small ISP, I have blocked major sites and occasionally whole countries while dealing with DDoS attacks.

[RainMaker]

No conspiracy. I just didn't understand why this site was targeted over others that have had similar issues like Facebook.

The owner of 4Chan made a post to cull any conspiracy theories. Essentially he said that they have been hit with a DDoS but that AT&T chose to block their entire network instead of affected customers. They also didn't contact 4Chan prior to taking it down.

I still think it brings up the issue of net neutrality again even if that wasn't really the case here. It's a debate that needs to happen at some point.

[Subby]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Well, I get the impression that you have an agenda here, so I'll leave it at that then I figured my opinion as a network engineer might be useful in this conversation, but I don't want to get in the way of any really good conspiracies!

[wade moore]

RM is really flying up the rankings of posters here that try too hard to play their character.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by wade moore

RM is really flying up the rankings of posters here that try to hard to play their character.

[gstelmack]

While we're complaining about TWC, fun story:

My parents just moved here. They closed on Tuesday, had cable installed Wednesday, on Thursday my dad needed to do some work in the office so moved the cablemodem and everything out to the living room. Cable didn't work there, so he tried moving it back. Didn't work in the old room. TWC sent a tech out. Turns out they decided to disconnect the prior owner's service on Thursday, the day AFTER activating new service for my parents...

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

While we're complaining about TWC, fun story:

My parents just moved here. They closed on Tuesday, had cable installed Wednesday, on Thursday my dad needed to do some work in the office so moved the cablemodem and everything out to the living room. Cable didn't work there, so he tried moving it back. Didn't work in the old room. TWC sent a tech out. Turns out they decided to disconnect the prior owner's service on Thursday, the day AFTER activating new service for my parents...

lol whoops

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by wade moore

RM is really flying up the rankings of posters here that try too hard to play their character.

Sometimes you gotta play a character according to the dice rolls. Not smart to put an 18 in strength all the time....

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Well, I get the impression that you have an agenda here, so I'll leave it at that then I figured my opinion as a network engineer might be useful in this conversation, but I don't want to get in the way of any really good conspiracies!

A lot of the "mob"complex conspiracies on the internet are very entertaining, because it seems to always be much ado about nothing. Amazon and their removal of alternative lifestyle books, AT&T blocking of 4chan, etc. It's one of the major flaws of the internet and the new instant notification/gratification of Twitter and etc.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

While we're complaining about TWC, fun story:

Didn't read the rest of your post yet, but um... I know it's a habit for some of us to complain about TWC, but come on and catch up before you make a comment like that!

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

My parents just moved here. They closed on Tuesday, had cable installed Wednesday, on Thursday my dad needed to do some work in the office so moved the cablemodem and everything out to the living room. Cable didn't work there, so he tried moving it back. Didn't work in the old room. TWC sent a tech out. Turns out they decided to disconnect the prior owner's service on Thursday, the day AFTER activating new service for my parents...

Now on to this part. That's just plain stupid on TWCs part, but it I can see it happening due to a number of different reasons, unfortunately, due to inconsistencies with the way the billing system works (I HATE THE BILLING SYSTEM!).

[RainMaker]

U.S. as Traffic Cop in Web Fight - WSJ.com

Think this will be good for future web innovation.

[RainMaker]

John McCain announced an anti-Net Neutrality bill called the Internet Freedom Act. Nothing screams freedom like corporate monopolies who have their infrastructures built with taxpayer dollars.

http://www.reuters.com/article/vcCan...74038020091023

[sabotai]

I propose a "Congress Freedom Act" which would prohibit members of Congress from naming their bills....

[SirFozzie]

Gee, isn't it surprising who the top person in receiving donations from communications companies?

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsO...40901420091024

(I notice with disquiet that Harry Reid's #2, even if it is half of what McCain got)

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

John McCain announced an anti-Net Neutrality bill called the Internet Freedom Act. Nothing screams freedom like corporate monopolies who have their infrastructures built with taxpayer dollars.

http://www.reuters.com/article/vcCan...74038020091023

Love this one from the article you posted, RM

According to the text of the McCain bill, the FCC "shall not propose, promulgate, or issue any regulations regarding the Internet or IP-enabled services." Isn't that what the FCC does? Isn't that sort of like introducing a bill to prohibit the Treasury from printing money, or a bill to prohibit the IRS from collecting taxes?

[RainMaker]

Looks like the neverending battle over net neutrality is picking up again.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/pos...s_move_to.html

[gstelmack]

More fun TWC griping:

Just got my notice that they are going to start charging $3.95/month for modem leasing. I don't have a problem with it in general, but I do have a problem with the specifics:

- Don't talk to me about the need to upgrade and maintain the cablemodems when you've only swapped mine out twice in the decade-plus I've had it. Both times were for additional services you wanted to sell me (VOIP support, then RR Extreme / DOCSIS 3.0). And the one you gave me for DOCSIS 3.0 is a hunk-o-junk Ubee. I'll pay the $3.95 if you are going to upgrade me to newer models with better throughput / compatibility / reliability periodically, or if you hadn't cheaped out on me with this DOCSIS 3.0 upgrade, but I'm not paying $3.95/month to be stuck with this Ubee and it's horrible router (that made me go buy my own and figure out how to turn off its router) for the next 5 years barring something going wrong with it.
- Why is it a flat $3.95, rather than scalable based on what I've got? Yes, I'm likely to end up paying $3.95/month because I'll be at the high end of your Internet service, but I don't want the built-in crappy router. And I know you'd be charging me the same $3.95 for my nearly 8-year-old Motorola Surfboard SB4xxx VOIP modem, and are charging the same to all those other folks who do still have them.

I'll be trying to pick up a Motorola SB6141 from Target on the way home tonight, and handing in my others. If it will last 2 years, I'll start gaining, plus it's mine and I can set it up exactly the way I want to.

[stevew]

yeah, I'm going to buy one when they start charging me per month. These things are a piece of trash, yet you're charging me $50/year for it.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

yeah, i may go sans internet or maybe give that netzero or verizon mobile internet thing a try. fucking ridiculous

[DanGarion]

I suggest any customer that isn't happy with the new policy (which I will add TWC is one of the last cable companies to start charging most have for years) I highly suggest buying your own modem/advanced wireless gateway. But be ready to understand that if you get your own cable modem gateway that has a router built in, that support and techs out in the field will be unable to troubleshoot your network and will only be able to test to see if things are working with their test modem at your house.

[gstelmack]

I am explicitly buying one without a router builtin, I already had to buy a separate router to overcome issues with the router in the Ubee (like getting a consistent Open NAT with my 360). Motorola SB6141 if I can find one.