Werewolf LVIII: Clash of the Gods (GAME OVER)

[hoopsguy]

Arlington, my thoughts on asking for some kind of confirmation of your role is that you are already out in the open as an Olympian. The Titans have a reason to come after you - they want the 1:1 ratio.

Now in terms of using your power/powers, I'm hoping that they might demonstrate a reason for us to trust your reveal so we make a good decision today.

Do you believe that you, Anxiety, and Lathum are all who you have said you are and all on the side of the Olympians?

Talking about you specifically, I don't get why on Day 3 you would not understand your specific powers. Post #880 makes it sound like you don't know what they do, which I am guessing is a lie. Whether you are lying to protect yourself or to benefit the Olympians is what I'm trying to determine.

[DaddyTorgo]

my day has ended up a lot crazier than i would have liked. i will for sure be home and active before lynch (caveat: game 2 of the WS and BC vs. VT football games tonight)

Very perplexed by AC. In fact I'm very perplexed by the lack of significant info that anybody has from night actions...lathum won't tell us about his visitor...AC won't tell us or doesn't know what his powers did...schmidty has been AWOL...

for now

VOTE SCHMIDTY

[Neon_Chaos]

I see that Anxiety's here. Anxiety, how did your powers go last night? You mentioned about not knowing about these powers before in any other game. Maybe you could provide insight?

[Neon_Chaos]

*not seeing, I meant, instead of not knowing.

[Telle]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

I'm still trying to make sense out of Anxiety's play. He reveals as an Olympian and has disappeared.

Data points for me on Anxiety:
- no one countering his reveal is to his benefit
- however, Alan has said that there are safeguard against a mass reveal and there is a pretty extensive list of roles (more than 19) and a note that more roles may exist than listed
- Ares strikes me as an Olympian who may have their own victory conditions
- why isn't Anxiety sticking around to try and help us make the right decision if he felt strongly enough about it to reveal earlier?

Just trying to figure out the sequence of events. I've got the idea in my head that we just might have been on the verge of a good day one vote. Maybe I'm overthinking it, but would like to hear what others think (preferably quickly).

Just wanted to bring this to the forefront again.. especially in combination with Hoops's more recent post about how Anxiety's now managed to survive two nights and ArlingtonColt one. Plus did anyone notice that Anxiety never moved his vote off of himself? He revealed because he was concerned about getting lynched.. but wasn't concerned enough to not vote for himself??

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

They need both the 1:1 ratio and three specific players off the board.

On night one they opted not to take an Olympian off the board. Why?

On night two they opted not to take either of two Olympians or the bodyguard off the board. Why? This night makes more sense to me than the first if they felt BK was too trusted and too dangerous a player to leave in that position. But if BK was a human they would have been in a bad spot in terms of victory conditions.

Hoops, if there is one obvious target, you know as well as I do that there is a likely guard. I wouldn;t have targeted a Day One villager reveal as a wolf either, that's bad math.

[hoopsguy]

Day 1 vote - we now know that at the end we had a runoff between Zeus and Cronus. Assume that the Titan's didn't realize that BK was Zeus (high likelihood), but knew he was not a Titan. Would Path have been the only person putting a vote here?

Barkeep voters:
NTN - dead Olympian
Lathum - "revealed hero"
Chief Rum
Arlington Colt - "revealed Olympian"
Pass - dead Olympian
Path - dead Titan
Telle

If you reach the assumption that another Titan would have joined in this vote, which is more likely in a game with fuzzy voting analysis, then we only have four people to look at, two of who have revealed and two who have not. I think I'm going to focus here, rather than on Schmidty or other guys who have just been quiet.

[Poli]

Didn't think about that.

Gotta go, need lunch then to those errand type things.

[Telle]

Ok hoops.. since I'm one of those four.. anything you want to hear from me? I think the general consensus is that further reveals aren't in the best interest of the village, so I don't want to go there.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

But by basically revealing, you have compromised the remaining two of the big three.

Bit the bullet, and take one for the team. Why are you so concerned about dying, when you're not one of the big three, and you've practically outed yourself as an Olympian? You're not their priority, and I doubt you'd become their priority even after revealing whatever powers you have.

N_C you don;t know what his powers are. What isf you are pushing eh seer hard? What about teh soothwsayer? What about a Duke? What about something really cool that isn;t nomrl astandard but could help us out? Why do you need to know his specific ability at this point in time - what benefit is it to you? You aren't Blade with an excel spreadsheet and everybody's names that you fill in as you get info on people are you?

If someone rr's as a major god, one that would be in the game, and no one contravenes, you can be fairly confident that they are who they say thay are. That's what matters now.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by Anxiety

Hoops, if there is one obvious target, you know as well as I do that there is a likely guard. I wouldn;t have targeted a Day One villager reveal as a wolf either, that's bad math.

I would agree with this more if the wolves had not gone after the person I considered the "obvious" target on Night 2. Even though BK had not revealed, so many people were trusting him for his narrow escape from the showdown against the Titan that it had to be a concern.

So the wolves went with a non-obvious target on Night 1, and an obvious target on Night 2, based on my perceptions. Obviously other people may have different reads. But that change in approach is what concerns me, to some extent, with your continued survival. It is also why I would love to see some kind of manifestation of "goodness" in terms of actions or data from one of the people who have revealed as Olympians or heroes.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

I see that Anxiety's here. Anxiety, how did your powers go last night? You mentioned about not knowing about these powers before in any other game. Maybe you could provide insight?

Yesterday I used my power on hoopsguy to see if I could track him down. They did not work therefore.

[Telle]

Originally Posted by Anxiety

N_C you don;t know what his powers are. What isf you are pushing eh seer hard? What about teh soothwsayer? What about a Duke? What about something really cool that isn;t nomrl astandard but could help us out? Why do you need to know his specific ability at this point in time - what benefit is it to you? You aren't Blade with an excel spreadsheet and everybody's names that you fill in as you get info on people are you?

If someone rr's as a major god, one that would be in the game, and no one contravenes, you can be fairly confident that they are who they say thay are. That's what matters now.

Actually I think most of us are of the opinion that revealing as a major god doesn't really buy you much of anything (you plural - not you personally). Given the numbers, there are a lot of unused roles.. and there's a high likelihood that the Titans know which are used and which are not (going on people's interpretation of Alan stating that there is a balancing mechanism in the game against mass reveals).

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by Telle

Just wanted to bring this to the forefront again.. especially in combination with Hoops's more recent post about how Anxiety's now managed to survive two nights and ArlingtonColt one. Plus did anyone notice that Anxiety never moved his vote off of himself? He revealed because he was concerned about getting lynched.. but wasn't concerned enough to not vote for himself??

I fel bound to the dice, and I was gone for the last hour or so to see the major moves.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by Telle

Ok hoops.. since I'm one of those four.. anything you want to hear from me? I think the general consensus is that further reveals aren't in the best interest of the village, so I don't want to go there.

Telle, I'm honestly not sure what I would ask you that hasn't been asked already. Clearly, you voted for the wrong person on Day 1. Not a capital offense, but the timing of your vote was especially bad in light of what we now know as it seemed to slam the door shut on BK. I'm going to pull up a vote history from Day 1 to look at this a little closer.

If I decide that I trust the people who have revealed, then I'm probably going to end up voting for either you or Chief. If you have something that you feel should be brought to the table to help us make a better vote then do it. But there isn't much of a posting history for me to look at with you over the first two days.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by Telle

Actually I think most of us are of the opinion that revealing as a major god doesn't really buy you much of anything (you plural - not you personally). Given the numbers, there are a lot of unused roles.. and there's a high likelihood that the Titans know which are used and which are not (going on people's interpretation of Alan stating that there is a balancing mechanism in the game against mass reveals).

That's why I said a major god. Sure, there are a lot of gods going unused, but there are some powerful and interesting enough that you can reasoably assume they are in teh game (such as Ares, for example).

That's all you need right now. Again, I think you guys should stop pushing AC. Push too hard and you may make a great ally reveal something he should have kept private that we could have really used.

[Telle]

Originally Posted by Anxiety

I fel bound to the dice, and I was gone for the last hour or so to see the major moves.

Forgive me if I find this less than compelling. Feeling "bound to the dice" is enough of a reason to start out a vote on yourself on Day 1.. but not to keep it there and do a reveal to convince others to move off of you even though you won't move off of yourself. I thought MAYBE you had "Duke" powers and that's why.. but you've stated that your powers are odd and nothing you've ever seen in WW before. So beyond that, it at the very least does not seem like a village-friendly move since a villager should not be voting for a known villager and should not be revealing himself to the wolves unless necessary.

[Telle]

Originally Posted by Anxiety

That's why I said a major god. Sure, there are a lot of gods going unused, but there are some powerful and interesting enough that you can reasoably assume they are in teh game (such as Ares, for example).

I actually pretty much assumed that only the Big Three were necessarily in the game and the rest were attributed randomly.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by Telle

Forgive me if I find this less than compelling. Feeling "bound to the dice" is enough of a reason to start out a vote on yourself on Day 1.. but not to keep it there and do a reveal to convince others to move off of you even though you won't move off of yourself. I thought MAYBE you had "Duke" powers and that's why.. but you've stated that your powers are odd and nothing you've ever seen in WW before. So beyond that, it at the very least does not seem like a village-friendly move since a villager should not be voting for a known villager and should not be revealing himself to the wolves unless necessary.

Having five or six voters on me an hour before deadline is not "necessary" to your way of thinking?

[Telle]

Originally Posted by Anxiety

Having five or six voters on me an hour before deadline is not "necessary" to your way of thinking?

As others have stated, the votes were moving. And you could have easily decreased the votes by one yourself. That should have been the FIRST thing you did when you saw people were voting for you just because you voted for yourself.

[ArlingtonColt]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

That's such a cop out response.

Just remember that you're selling short on the village by trying to save your own skin.

Well I am a cop... so i guess this fits.

[ArlingtonColt]

Im feeling good about a Lathum or Telle vote today. Lathum was the most vocal and came to the defense of path MULTIPLE times on the day 1 vote. He was the only person to defend him too.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by Telle

As others have stated, the votes were moving. And you could have easily decreased the votes by one yourself. That should have been the FIRST thing you did when you saw people were voting for you just because you voted for yourself.

There was an ethicial question in play. I had agreed, n my mind, to vote for teh person who came up on the dice. That person was me. I could have lied and rerolled it, or decided I wasn;t bounc to it, but either would be unethical.

You are not going to argue ethics with the philosophy guy who specializes in ethics and is also an ordained minister, right? Can we accept that I thought it would be unethical and move on?

[Abe Sargent]

I am the absolute worst WW player at one thing. Signals. I can never tell when someone is dropping a signal into their post or anything. This is something I truly suck at.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by ArlingtonColt

Im feeling good about a Lathum or Telle vote today. Lathum was the most vocal and came to the defense of path MULTIPLE times on the day 1 vote. He was the only person to defend him too.

Lathum rr as a human who was an obvious inclusion (Heracles is the obvious choice for a human to be in the game) and as the bg and no one has controverted him. Doesn't that make him very likely to not be a Titan?

No way I'm voting Lathum unless I absolutely have to.

BTW - I would never defend massively a wolf under the gun on Day One as a wolf. Someone will seer you or lynch you. That's a risky play with little reward but much danger.

[Telle]

Originally Posted by Anxiety

There was an ethicial question in play. I had agreed, n my mind, to vote for teh person who came up on the dice. That person was me. I could have lied and rerolled it, or decided I wasn;t bounc to it, but either would be unethical.

You are not going to argue ethics with the philosophy guy who specializes in ethics and is also an ordained minister, right? Can we accept that I thought it would be unethical and move on?

But you realize.. nobody saw you make that dice role.. nobody heard you make that agreement in your head. It very well could just be a distracting story and a way to hide your vote.

I think the point I'm trying to make is that it just seems odd to me and is something to look at. Most certainly not damning proof of any kind

[DaddyTorgo]

interesting point by hoops on looking at the voters for Zeus. should we similarily look at people who voted for Cronus but moved their vote elsewhere later (does anyone fall under this category?)

that to me would also be an interesting thing to look at

[Telle]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

interesting point by hoops on looking at the voters for Zeus. should we similarily look at people who voted for Cronus but moved their vote elsewhere later (does anyone fall under this category?)

that to me would also be an interesting thing to look at

Looking through my notes, I'm not seeing anyone as voting for path and then moving off of him.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by Anxiety

Yesterday I used my power on hoopsguy to see if I could track him down. They did not work therefore.

What kind of information did you get on me?

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Anxiety

Lathum rr as a human who was an obvious inclusion (Heracles is the obvious choice for a human to be in the game) and as the bg and no one has controverted him. Doesn't that make him very likely to not be a Titan?

No way I'm voting Lathum unless I absolutely have to.

BTW - I would never defend massively a wolf under the gun on Day One as a wolf. Someone will seer you or lynch you. That's a risky play with little reward but much danger.

I'm going to echo this and ask that if anyone is really down to a lathum vs someone else vote please vote someone else.

His play and his reveal are both solidly showing him as an Olympian and one we should be keeping around. If in fact his reveal is false I'm sure it will come out before it actually causes a problem.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Telle

Looking through my notes, I'm not seeing anyone as voting for path and then moving off of him.

thanks mrs. spreadsheet

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

What kind of information did you get on me?

I'm assuming that he got nothing at all as you were imprisoned by the minataur yesterday. More than likely it kept yu hidden from any type of contact/access/tracking.

[hoopsguy]

Technically, Lathum's reveal shows him as a Human, not an Olympian

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

thanks mrs. spreadsheet

Hey my name isn't Spreadsheet.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

thanks mrs. spreadsheet

Telle, do you have a vote/unvote list that you can publish? I'm having a fairly busy day at work, which is making it a little tougher to go post-digging.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Technically, Lathum's reveal shows him as a Human, not an Olympian

True enough.

[Telle]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

..vote history from Day 1..

Just in case anyone else is curious, here is everyone's voting throughout Day 1. Unvotes are noted when a new person was not immediately voted for.

Render - vote Telle (143), vote Racer (289), vote path (324)
Barkeep - vote hoopsguy (60), unvote hoopsguy (206), vote path (315)
Chief Rum - vote barkeep (261)
PurdueBrad - vote Neon_Chaos (135)
St.Cronin - vote barkeep (212), vote neon_chaos (370)
Neon_Chaos - vote daddytorgo (131), vote path (330)
Lathum - vote Hoopsguy (144), vote barkeep (210)
ntndeacon - vote barkeep (159)
ArlingtonColt - vote barkeep (277)
Passacaglia - vote Anxiety (136), vote barkeep (325)
Telle - vote Anxiety (178), (vote Barkeep (360) - forgot to unvote), vote barkeep (376)
Hoopsguy - vote lathum (219), vote neon_chaos (375)
Path12 - vote barkeep (352)
Anxiety - vote Anxiety (132)
Ardent_Enthusiast - vote Anxiety (147), vote neon_chaos (316)
Racer - vote hoopsguy (208)
DaddyTorgo - vote Neon_Chaos (127), vote path (328)
Raiders Army - vote Anxiety (140)
Schmidty - vote Anxiety (201)

[Telle]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Telle, do you have a vote/unvote list that you can publish? I'm having a fairly busy day at work, which is making it a little tougher to go post-digging.

Guess I read your mind

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by ArlingtonColt

Maybe they are trying to hit the convert?

I am still getting caught up but I just skimmed the rules and I didn'd see anything about there being a convert.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Telle

And did anybody else notice that after Day 1 we had two (assumed) monster actions, and none after Day 2?

And any thoughts as to whose side the monsters or controllers of the monsters (depending on interpretation) they might be on? Or perhaps they have their own victory conditions?

My guess was that Neon and Hoops actually each did the other one. Just a wild ass guess, but it would explain why neither event recurred day 2.

Also, hoops keeps saying everybody was trusting Barkeep and I don't think that's true. I didn't trust Barkeep, and I don't think Lathum did either.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I am still getting caught up but I just skimmed the rules and I didn'd see anything about there being a convert.

I would assume that powers that strong are every other day type things, or perhaps even 1 time only shots.

Just guessing.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

My guess was that Neon and Hoops actually each did the other one. Just a wild ass guess, but it would explain why neither event recurred day 2.

Also, hoops keeps saying everybody was trusting Barkeep and I don't think that's true. I didn't trust Barkeep, and I don't think Lathum did either.

I don't think they taged one another. If you think about it I don't see how one could get the other with those specific abilities...once one was traped he couldn't get turned to stone? Or once one was stoned he couldn't kidnap another?

I don't think either of them are the monsters.

[RendeR]

And I think I was the only one that really trusted BK. Not sure about hte others, and I found it utterly fascinating that on day 1 I found myself trusting BK and defending hoops to some extent.

How tweaked is that

[Telle]

Originally Posted by RendeR

And I think I was the only one that really trusted BK.

And yet people jump on me for not somehow inherently knowing that voting for BK would be a bad thing.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Telle

And yet people jump on me for not somehow inherently knowing that voting for BK would be a bad thing.

But its fun jumping on you....err..wait, WHO ELSE IS JUMPING YOU????

[st.cronin]

VOTE HOOPSGUY

I will likely be extremely busy today. I am only using 1 AP for my vote.

[Telle]

Pretty slow voting day thus far.. lots of names being tossed out though.

Telle - Raiders Army (786)
Schmidty - ardent enthusiast (877), DaddyTorgo (902)
Hoopsguy - st.cronin (946)

[hoopsguy]

Cronin, think it through. I had an opportunity, as did you, to put a late vote on Barkeep on Day 1. I didn't pull the trigger on it even though throughout the day I made a big deal out of the fact that BK was using extra votes.

That is one reason that I'm not looking very hard at you right now, for better or worse.

[hoopsguy]

Anxiety, have you used your power once or twice? If only once, then why not twice?

[RendeR]

Anyone seen Raiders Army recently?