2020 Democratic Primaries/General Election Thread

[Ghost Econ]

I always wondered how the Nazi party became a thing. I mean, I read The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, but it still seemed abstract and academic.

Just reading Twitter and Facebook, now it starts to make sense.

[Brian Swartz]

The Nazis never got anything close to a majority in any election. To have a comparative situation here, we'd need Trump to do something like dissolve Congress and have it blamed on someone else. That kind of thing might yet happen in our future, but we aren't there yet.

[Ghost Econ]

That's because Germany had 5 or 6 political parties. The numbers would have skewed differently if there were only 2 parties.

[Brian Swartz]

Sure, but it's also possible the Nazi Party wouldn't have even risen at all in that scenario. That sort of Monday-morning quarterbacking of history could have any number permutations as outcomes, and quite likely would have ended up much differently than the history that actually happened.

[Brian Swartz]

Social media election theory:

** Homeland Security launched a sting operation involving literally millions of ballots due a watermark placed on the ballots by the federal government not being present. Some of the versions of this claim that the majority of ballots cast nationwide were fake, and that the National Guard is recounting them in a dozen key states. The particularly amusing part of this to me is that the federal government has no role whatsoever in state ballots so this one can't even get to the starting line.

I've also been recently informed that voter fraud is very much a thing, because that's exactly what liberals claimed Russia did in 2016 (no it isn't), and that the Democratic party is 'bold and full of communists' - its complete lack of Communist proposals notwithstanding.

The fun thing about not being particularly partisan in either direction is you are really in the crossfire, getting it with both barrels from bot directions during times like these.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

The fun thing about not being particularly partisan in either direction is you are really in the crossfire, getting it with both barrels from bot directions during times like these.

It is both exasperating and frightening at the same time. Rational thinking seems like a lost tenant to both parties at times, though much more on the right. At least to my as neutral as possible position.

[Brian Swartz]

I don't disagree, the right definitely has more of it at the moment. That often happens when you've lost but struggle processing that fact.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by rjolley

This is exactly where I am with all of this. We all knew this was going to happen from the White House, but to have high ranking officials support this craziness is really surprising and depressing.

You have captured my feelings except the part about it being surprising and depressing. I know it is weird but I feel just a great sense of calm overall. He told us what he was going to do. He explicitly stated that he was not going to accept the elections. We just watched the GOP in the Senate casually explain away why we the public misunderstood their clearly stated 2016 positions on confirming a SC justice during an election year. That is on top of every thing else that has happened in the last four years. The saying "When they show you who they are, believe them." applies here. I think the calm comes from the fact of seeing this all before in a different context.

It reminds me of the friend or family member who's spouse has cheated on them over and over and over again. Every time you asked the friend/family member about the cheating, they offer a weak explanation as to why that is just how the spouse is, it is the friend's own fault for not being enough, how they have to allow it for the sake of the kids etc. You present the hotel receipt? The spouse just happened to be there on business. You saw the spouse at the movies with someone else? That was the spouse's cousin.

Eventually, the friend turns on you for constantly bringing up the cheating and trying to break up their happy family.

[Ksyrup]

I think it's unlikely to succeed, but the fact that we've gotten this far is scary. Removing Esper because he opposed sending the military to stop the riots, GOP authorizing Trump to challenge the election while not also adding "but I've seen no evidence of anything that suggests this wasn't a fair election," GOP believing the courts they packed will eventually give them the election, etc.

The thing that scares me most is that they know they can push HARD and get little resistance. This isn't the 1800s. Very few people are going to give up a cushy way of life to support a civil war. They know that. In a worst-case scenario where Trump ultimately "wins," yes there will be riots and death, but it will be small scale. We won't fall apart as a country (yet) because people will still have their basic way of life unthreatened.

I just don't like that we're trusting that the proper order of the world needs to be reaffirmed by a relatively small group of people who can turn the whole thing on its ear if they want. The classic bully move - shove us to the ground and bet that rather than coming up swinging, we walk away shaking our heads.

[JPhillips]

What's going on?

Minnesota get out and vote!!!

— Eric Trump (@EricTrump) November 10, 2020

[Ksyrup]

I'm guessing he screwed up an auto-scheduled tweet that was supposed to be sent last Tuesday.

[Lathum]

Is it possible this is all a big distraction to take away the fact that the SC hearing on the ACA is today and all everyone is focused on is the election?

[bronconick]

It appears that Republicans will probably never concede in general again, now that House races are being lost 80-20 with the GOPer claiming "fraud"

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

What's going on?

Minnesota get out and vote!!!
— Eric Trump (@EricTrump) November 10, 2020

It was:


*twitter fraud
*the actual reason they lost the election
*an example of the brilliance that runs in the family
*a legit post
*Twitter's fault for not posting it on time.
*a massive conspiracy that election days were swapped.

[Ghost Econ]

My priest is getting dragged in his Facebook comments. He's über Conservative, thinks the radical left is trying to destroy the world, vehemently anti-lockdown, hates the current Pope, thinks global warming is fake...

He posted that the election is over and we should pray that Biden listens to God's guidance. There's 200 replies raking him over the coals.

It's amazing how American Catholics have traded God for Trump.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Ghost Econ

It's amazing how American Catholics have traded God for Trump.

And Biden is a practicing Catholic while Trump doesn't know how to hold a Bible and can't name a single Bible verse.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Is it possible this is all a big distraction to take away the fact that the SC hearing on the ACA is today and all everyone is focused on is the election?

Don't forget the larger implications of the Pennsylvania case (which would not change the result, but could set a very problematic precedent). There's always a short game by Trump and a long game by those egging him on/riding his coattails.

[Danny]

So of the 70 million votes, how many of those are true Trumpers and how many may not like him that much but are automatic republican votes?

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by Atocep

And Biden is a practicing Catholic

The words "practicing Catholic" and supporting abortion do not go together. Catholicism is not a-la-carte - you either believe and practice what the church says or you don't.

Now that does not preclude him from being president or being a better person than Trump or anything else that anyone wants to argue over - I'm not here for any of that - just making clear the fact that just because he attends mass doesn't mean he's really practicing the Catholic faith.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Is it possible this is all a big distraction to take away the fact that the SC hearing on the ACA is today and all everyone is focused on is the election?

So from oral arguments today it seemed that both Justice Roberts and Justice Kavanaugh were skeptical that Congress's decision to end the individual mandate penalty was a desire to kill the entire law. Kavanaugh especially seemed to think this was a clear case of severability.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

The words "practicing Catholic" and supporting abortion do not go together. Catholicism is not a-la-carte - you either believe and practice what the church says or you don't.

Now that does not preclude him from being president or being a better person than Trump or anything else that anyone wants to argue over - I'm not here for any of that - just making clear the fact that just because he attends mass doesn't mean he's really practicing the Catholic faith.

Having a private belief and enforcing that belief on others are two different things.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

The words "practicing Catholic" and supporting abortion do not go together. Catholicism is not a-la-carte - you either believe and practice what the church says or you don't.

Now that does not preclude him from being president or being a better person than Trump or anything else that anyone wants to argue over - I'm not here for any of that - just making clear the fact that just because he attends mass doesn't mean he's really practicing the Catholic faith.

You're essentially talking about half of all Catholics here, FWIW.

[Qwikshot]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

The words "practicing Catholic" and supporting abortion do not go together. Catholicism is not a-la-carte - you either believe and practice what the church says or you don't.

Now that does not preclude him from being president or being a better person than Trump or anything else that anyone wants to argue over - I'm not here for any of that - just making clear the fact that just because he attends mass doesn't mean he's really practicing the Catholic faith.

Spoken like a true dumb ass. I’m Catholic and you don’t speak for me.

[NobodyHere]

wowzers

[Ksyrup]

What an embarrassment.

Pompeo just now: “There will be a smooth transition to a second Trump administration."

— John Hudson (@John_Hudson) November 10, 2020

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

The words "practicing Catholic" and supporting abortion do not go together. Catholicism is not a-la-carte - you either believe and practice what the church says or you don't.

Now that does not preclude him from being president or being a better person than Trump or anything else that anyone wants to argue over - I'm not here for any of that - just making clear the fact that just because he attends mass doesn't mean he's really practicing the Catholic faith.

If that's the bar the number of actual practicing Catholics is incredibly small since I'm willing to bet a large number of self described Catholics have had premarital sex, use contraceptives, and/or support gay marriage.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Having a private belief and enforcing that belief on others are two different things.

No it is not a private belief - it is the teaching of the Catholic Church. He doesn't have to be part of the Catholic Church - if he chooses to do so though and wants to call himself a Catholic then he has an obligation to follow the teachings of the church which means he would not support abortion and would not then direct any money towards supporting any organization such as Planned Parenthood that supports abortion which would be his decision to make.

If he wants to support abortion or companies that deal in abortion that's his choice but that also means he is not practicing the Catholic faith and that's all my point was.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

You're essentially talking about half of all Catholics here, FWIW.

Sadly, yes there is a large percentage of Catholics that don't follow the catechism of the Catholic Church

[Comey]

Originally Posted by Ghost Econ

My priest is getting dragged in his Facebook comments. He's über Conservative, thinks the radical left is trying to destroy the world, vehemently anti-lockdown, hates the current Pope, thinks global warming is fake...

He posted that the election is over and we should pray that Biden listens to God's guidance. There's 200 replies raking him over the coals.

It's amazing how American Catholics have traded God for Trump.

Is this the priest in Providence?

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by Atocep

If that's the bar the number of actual practicing Catholics is incredibly small since I'm willing to bet a large number of self described Catholics have had premarital sex, use contraceptives, and/or support gay marriage.

I would agree with you although doing something once doesn't mean you are not practicing - everyone commits sin and in the Church you always have the ability to confess those sins and receive absolution for them. But if you are knowingly and willingly doing those things and not atoning for them then yeah. I don't make the rules - I just know what they are.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

The words "practicing Catholic" and supporting abortion do not go together. Catholicism is not a-la-carte - you either believe and practice what the church says or you don't.

Now that does not preclude him from being president or being a better person than Trump or anything else that anyone wants to argue over - I'm not here for any of that - just making clear the fact that just because he attends mass doesn't mean he's really practicing the Catholic faith.

I'm pretty sure neither of the real candidates on the ballot this year (sorry, Jo, Kanye, et al) are 100% " believe and practice what the church says or you don't". So, on the one hand, you have abortion weighed against a man who not only fails the two greatest commandments but on such a spectacular level that he could be held up as example of what not to do. He's certainly an idolator (sure, we're all idolators to some degree but I think we can also agree that there's significant degrees between run of the mill selfishness and putting your name in giant gold letters on all of your buildings) so I think "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind" is well off the table. And a man who has spent much of his adult life sewing discord for his own personal ends certainly fails at loving one neighbor as yourself. Never mind the adultery, lying as readily as he draws breath, etc. But, hey, abortion!

SI

[larrymcg421]

Pompeo says there will be a smooth transition to a 2nd Trump administration.

FFS.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

What an embarrassment.

Pompeo just now: “There will be a smooth transition to a second Trump administration."
— John Hudson (@John_Hudson) November 10, 2020

Adds "Mike Pompeo" to the growing list of people to never allow near the levers of power ever again.

SI

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

No it is not a private belief - it is the teaching of the Catholic Church. He doesn't have to be part of the Catholic Church - if he chooses to do so though and wants to call himself a Catholic then he has an obligation to follow the teachings of the church which means he would not support abortion and would not then direct any money towards supporting any organization such as Planned Parenthood that supports abortion which would be his decision to make.

If he wants to support abortion or companies that deal in abortion that's his choice but that also means he is not practicing the Catholic faith and that's all my point was.

The Pope disagrees with this narrow thought process, btw.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by Qwikshot

Spoken like a true dumb ass. I’m Catholic and you don’t speak for me.

Ah yes, quite the Catholic response there.

Regardless I fail to see how this is a controversial take - the Church says abortion is morally wrong. If you don't agree then you're not following the Church.

Tell me how you can be at direct odds with the teachings of the Church but still be practicing it's faith?

How can you be at direct odds with anything and be practicing it?

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

I'm pretty sure neither of the real candidates on the ballot this year (sorry, Jo, Kanye, et al) are 100% " believe and practice what the church says or you don't". So, on the one hand, you have abortion weighed against a man who not only fails the two greatest commandments but on such a spectacular level that he could be held up as example of what not to do. He's certainly an idolator (sure, we're all idolators to some degree but I think we can also agree that there's significant degrees between run of the mill selfishness and putting your name in giant gold letters on all of your buildings) so I think "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind" is well off the table. And a man who has spent much of his adult life sewing discord for his own personal ends certainly fails at loving one neighbor as yourself. Never mind the adultery, lying as readily as he draws breath, etc. But, hey, abortion!

SI

That's quite the response to nothing I said. Where did I mention Trump or anyone else or who or how you should vote?

All I said was that Biden is not practicing the teachings of the Catholic Church which he isn't by definition.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

The Pope disagrees with this narrow thought process, btw.

I look forward to you telling me how the pope says this.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

That's quite the response to nothing I said. Where did I mention Trump or anyone else or who or how you should vote?

All I said was that Biden is not practicing the teachings of the Catholic Church which he isn't by definition.

Which was in response to the idea that Catholics had traded in a Catholic for Trump

SI

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

I look forward to you telling me how the pope says this.

Our defense of the innocent unborn, for example, needs to be clear, firm and passionate, for at stake is the dignity of a human life, which is always sacred and demands love for each person, regardless of his or her stage of development. Equally sacred, however, are the lives of the poor, those already born, the destitute, the abandoned and the underprivileged, the vulnerable infirm and elderly exposed to covert euthanasia, the victims of human trafficking, new forms of slavery, and every form of rejection. We cannot uphold an ideal of holiness that would ignore injustice in a world where some revel, spend with abandon and live only for the latest consumer goods, even as others look on from afar, living their entire lives in abject poverty.

We often hear it said that, with respect to relativism and the flaws of our present world, the situation of migrants, for example, is a lesser issue. Some Catholics consider it a secondary issue compared to the “grave” bioethical questions. That a politician looking for votes might say such a thing is understandable, but not a Christian, for whom the only proper attitude is to stand in the shoes of those brothers and sisters of ours who risk their lives to offer a future to their children. Can we not realize that this is exactly what Jesus demands of us, when he tells us that in welcoming the stranger we welcome him?

Francis has been pretty clear that no single issue makes someone Catholic or not Catholic.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Atocep

If that's the bar the number of actual practicing Catholics is incredibly small since I'm willing to bet a large number of self described Catholics have had premarital sex, use contraceptives, and/or support gay marriage.

And as of 2018, the Catechism of the Catholic Church prohibits the death penalty.

So... if the only practicing Catholics are the ones who slavishly follow the Catechism (and if that is the standard, then what is the point of Confession?), you are going to be talking about a very tiny amount of people worldwide.

[Qwikshot]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

Ah yes, quite the Catholic response there.

Regardless I fail to see how this is a controversial take - the Church says abortion is morally wrong. If you don't agree then you're not following the Church.

Tell me how you can be at direct odds with the teachings of the Church but still be practicing it's faith?

How can you be at direct odds with anything and be practicing it?

You have the rule book so far up your sanctimonious ass you forget Christ was all about loving one another and we’re all children of God, not about classification to rules...that’s what got him crucified.

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by Qwikshot

You have the rule book so far up your sanctimonious ass you forget Christ was all about loving one another and we’re all children of God, not about classification to rules...that’s what got him crucified.

It’s like rain on your wedding day...

[Brian Swartz]

I respectfully suggest we not turn this into a theological debate, before the thread has another blowout and we say more things that we'll later regret. We can always make another thread for that if need be.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Francis has been pretty clear that no single issue makes someone Catholic or not Catholic.

First of all just because Pope Francis or any other pope says something it does not make it an infallible statement nor is the pope allowed to change church teaching just by giving his opinions.

Now, Francis is correct - Catholics cannot be concerned only with abortion. They should be concerned with those other issues as well. Whether they are "equal" in concern is not an official teaching of the church, that is Francis' opinion but regardless they are obviously important.

In fact your post speaks to the idea that one must be concerned about ALL of those things - which would then make it very hard to claim that Joe Biden is practicing his Catholic faith when he is opposed to the very first item in your quote "the dignity of a human life, which is always sacred"

So you are right, it is not just one issue that makes you Catholic - it is a large group of them but it is also a requirement that you follow all of them and not just the ones that win you political points with your side (as you did happen to include in the quote from Francis)

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Ghost Econ

I always wondered how the Nazi party became a thing. I mean, I read The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, but it still seemed abstract and academic.

Just reading Twitter and Facebook, now it starts to make sense.

The Coming of the Third Reich by Richard Evans is the book you want. He covers in detail how the Nazis came to power. Rise and Fall is good as a primary source, as it was written by a journalist who was in Germany during this time so it's a good picture of the day-to-day life as the Nazis rose to power, but his 'history' is not very good.

The other two books in the series by Evans, The Third Reich In Power and The Third Reich At War, I also highly recommend. But I will warn you, if you have any faith in humanity, those two books might completely destroy it.

[CarterNMA]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

The words "practicing Catholic" and supporting abortion do not go together. Catholicism is not a-la-carte - you either believe and practice what the church says or you don't.

Now that does not preclude him from being president or being a better person than Trump or anything else that anyone wants to argue over - I'm not here for any of that - just making clear the fact that just because he attends mass doesn't mean he's really practicing the Catholic faith.

Thank you Gary for this comment! Because you spout your know-it-all dribble you have assured that I'll never buy a Wolverine Studios product, ever. You're not Chick-Fil-A, Hobby Lobby or Walmart so you probably shouldn't be pissing on potential customers. As Qwikshot said, cram it up your ass!

[GrantDawg]

My CNN colleagues looked into 50 of the names on a viral MAGA list supposedly showing 14,000 Michigan cases of ballots being cast in the name of dead people.

Result:
- 37 are dead, no vote cast
- 5 are alive and voted
- 8 are alive and didn’t vote https://t.co/2qvoVmRI3N

— Daniel Dale (@ddale8) November 10, 2020

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by CarterNMA

Thank you Gary for this comment! Because you spout your know-it-all dribble you have assured that I'll never buy a Wolverine Studios product, ever. You're not Chick-Fil-A, Hobby Lobby or Walmart so you probably shouldn't be pissing on potential customers. As Qwikshot said, cram it up your ass!

Yeah same here.

[GrantDawg]

Map porn:

This map shows you which parts of the country swung to the left or to the right v 2016. Georgia and sub/urban Texas really stand out to me:https://t.co/UjFVpxDIk2 pic.twitter.com/LV7cKifENS

— G. Elliott Morris (@gelliottmorris) November 10, 2020

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Map porn:

This map shows you which parts of the country swung to the left or to the right v 2016. Georgia and sub/urban Texas really stand out to me:https://t.co/UjFVpxDIk2 pic.twitter.com/LV7cKifENS

— G. Elliott Morris (@gelliottmorris) November 10, 2020

The Texas counties on the border with Mexico also stand out. Also, take a look at California, New York and Florida.