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Old 04-20-2020, 12:25 AM   #1
JustinSmith94
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Join Date: Apr 2019
Special teams snaps

How does the game assign who plays on special teams? I have a 2nd year LB, solid backup but he doesn't get any snaps on defense because my team is set there. His ST rating is in the 80s, and he's encouraged to play, yet when I look at the snap breakdowns at the end of a game he regularly plays 0 ST snaps and instead my star DT with a 40ST rating (who is set to not encouraged) is out there chasing down kicks. How can I fix this to get the guys I actually want on my ST unit?

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Old 04-20-2020, 10:50 AM   #2
Ushikawa
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Only a certain amount of guys from each pos group play I think, also just to be sure, you have him active, right?
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Old 04-20-2020, 01:11 PM   #3
QuikSand
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I confess I wish I knew how this worked, also.
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Old 04-20-2020, 02:32 PM   #4
MIJB#19
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Originally Posted by Ushikawa View Post
Only a certain amount of guys from each pos group play I think, also just to be sure, you have him active, right?
That's the majority of it, but there's also some unknown.

I had two rookie OLB both encouraged, both scouted in the top5 of special teams players on my team. From these two guys, the one with the smaller ST bar got all the action. The guy with the longer bar was not getting any action all season long and is still disgruntled about it.
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Old 04-21-2020, 10:20 AM   #5
tzach
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i wish i knew how it worked, too. i've had similar experiences to those of mijb, and my conclusion is that either there's a bug or the game doesn't look only at the ST bar for selecting ST players (the other obvious bar here would be endurance, but i've never tested).

Last edited by tzach : 04-21-2020 at 10:20 AM.
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Old 04-21-2020, 04:06 PM   #6
QuikSand
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It does seem to really want a guard or two, not just an O-lineman, but a guard, in for some plays. Thinking this must be for your FGs/punts...long snapper in the middle, the "tackle" job can kinda be anyone, gunners on the very outside, but abutting the snapper would be a "guard" role, not really a place for a linebacker or safety.
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Old 04-22-2020, 12:21 AM   #7
JustinSmith94
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Does anyone know what the numbers are for position limits? Should I un-encourage some of my LB that have ST ratings in the 70s so that this guy is more likely to play?
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Old 04-24-2020, 12:51 PM   #8
QuikSand
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Ok, I want to do some digging, see if i can help unearth some stuff here. I have a perfect team for this, I think... in my Snakebitten dynasty thread, I'm running a team deeply focused (of late) on just crushing the chemistry, cohesion, and special teams factors... and seeing what a decently-talented roster can do with that sort of underpinning. I'm loading files from the end of last season, so see what exactly happened with a team very, very manicured for special teams.

Last edited by QuikSand : 04-24-2020 at 12:51 PM.
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Old 04-24-2020, 01:25 PM   #9
QuikSand
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Okay, extracting this isn't as easy as I had hoped, my print-to-file isn't working on this computer, alas. So, here's a screenshot of my roster sorted by ST snaps:

in-view pic seems too tedious, so https://i.paste.pics/8RKU9.png

So, let's see here. We'd like to know WHO was getting used without being assigned as "encouraged" first, and maybe a breakdown into position groups would be nice to see, too. I'll do what I can.

Pos Name ST E/N - ST snaps

QB - none encouraged, no snaps

P/K
K Cortez NA N - 135 snaps = 40 FGA + 95? kickoffs (48 TD + 34 FG + 16)
P Frederick NA N - 121 snaps = 40 FGA + 81 punts

...there's a seeming kickoff discrepancy there (end of half scores I suppose), but no indication that the P/K are being trotted out to play a "position" for special teams, which would be bad

RB/FB
FB Lusignan 100 E - 393 snaps
RB Lester 59 N - 95 snaps
RB Podolyak 47 N - 0 snaps

Takeaway... well, the 100-rated guy led the team in ST snaps, that's what we'd want. It seemed to want another guy...can't tell whether this was "a second back" or "one more guy than you have available" but that's what we've got here. Noteworthy - the higher-ST-rated got used 100% of the time it dipped into the non-encouraged RB pool.

TE Barrett 92 Y - 393
TE Weydahl 90 Y - 293
TE Austin 30 N - 0

Perfect.

WR Conway 37 E - 311 (oops, rookie accidentally left as "encouraged")
WR Stocz 84/97 E - 172
WR Mathews 24 N - 100
WR Bernal 19 N - 1
WR Franz 34 N - 0
WR Slade 71 N - 0
WR Dugas 19/30 E - 0 (hmmm, accidentally E, but why didn't he get in?)

Okay, weirdness here. Perhaps my oversights will help shed some light here, though? One note - the guys who were earning "starts" here were Conway, Stocz, and Dugas... but the 212 lineup appears to feature Franz and Bernal (and that seems to be the "starters" in game for some purposes, like maybe a routine to avoid overtaxing starters by using them in special teams, which once was a setting in the game...and seems like there's potential it looms in the background when the AI needs to make the call).

WR Mathews was our primary punt returner, that likely explains most of his ST snaps.

Let's consider why Dugas, tagged as "encouraged" would get zero ST snaps. Maybe the game simply is hard-coded to take two guys from tehe WR group, and it grabs the highest-rated ST guys who are encouraged. In this zero-injury league, he was always the third guy, left out. That's the leading explanation, I'd say.

(TBA, so I don't lost typed-in text)

Last edited by QuikSand : 04-24-2020 at 01:32 PM.
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Old 04-24-2020, 01:56 PM   #10
QuikSand
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Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Annapolis, Md
OL

In this no-injury league, with no OL encouraged to play ST, it seems we get a perfect insight. On the 121 plays where the punter was in, we lined up the exact same 5 guys: the long snapper instead of the starting C, the two starting guards, and then the other two OL (here one T and one C) who were not starters. Every single one of those guys got precisely 121 ST snaps. Seems clear. Not certain that "starting guards are IN" is hard coded, but I'd guess that it is.

DL
DE Anthony 100 E - 280
NY Calhoun 97 E - 133
DE Banks 49 N - 32
DE Mealey 20 N - 29
DE Whiting 54 N - 7
NT Neill 20 N - 5

Kinda weird. Hard to fit the puzzle pieces together here. Maybe if looked at in tandem with linebackers (as a D7 group) it might make more sense. But on the surface, the #1 guy got a lot of work, a nearly-as-good guy less than half as much, and a smattering to the "don't use" guys that seems close to random.

LB

OLB Floyd 36 E - 276 (another oops, new player, shouldve been discouraged)
ILB Layman 96 E - 213
OLB Randolph 84 E - 145
ILB Tanner 82 E - 7
ILB Wilkerson 13 N - 5
OLB James 38 N - 4

Why did Summer get so many ST snaps? he was in fact lined up to play in the 2WR set, and got 4 starts that way, but... well, I don't have a lot more to go on. He got over 600 defensive snaps, too... more than Layman. Why would he get heavy duty ahead of the other guys? Makes no sense to me, unless "OLB" is a designated pull-from subset and Randolph's 1000+ D snaps (or just his presence in the D personnel screens) made him less likely to get called in?

DB

CB Wordehoff 98 E - 275
CB Metzenbaum 94 E - 272
CB Baskerville 77 E - 204
CB Creel 42/66 E - 81
S Austin 55 N - 37
CB Slechta 63 N - 35
S Douglas 31 N - 33
CB Gallop 49 N - 28
CB Conway 35 N - 8

So... pattern here is decent but not 100% clear. Seems like the two guys at 275/272 were basically "full timers" for every time the game pulls from the DB group. A third DB most, but not all, of those windows. And a 4th DB seems more than random, but he was Encouraged, so that seems to matter (contrast w Slechta).

No major outcome here, but the shape of this seems to be semi-logical at least.
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Old 04-24-2020, 02:02 PM   #11
QuikSand
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Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Annapolis, Md
So, here's a link to one game log from this team, with all the details broken out... when I get time, I might parse through and see who is actually being used.

https://bit.ly/2XZcwFL

If a deeper dive is required, I think the season before this, with this team, i very carefully set the E/N for everyone. Clearly in this season I failed to give that one last sweep, and all my new-to-us players were set to "Encouraged."
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Old 04-26-2020, 11:11 PM   #12
JustinSmith94
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Thanks for the breakdown, I've been seeing pretty similar stuff in my own single-player save, though having injuries on certainly complicates the data. I noticed that by switching a LB with mid-70s ST ratings to not encouraged, my 85ST guy finally started getting some snaps. I don't know why the other guy would get picked before him though given that he was lower rated and had a small role on defense as compared to nothing
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Old 04-29-2020, 09:58 AM   #13
QuikSand
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Join Date: Oct 2000
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Continuing to watch ST for the team I broke down above... shoudl have results tomorrow from the one-shot regular season. Anyway:

Quote:
Quick notes on special teams. Who's encouraged, by position group:

QB
RB
FB 100
TE 90 89
WR 90
OL
PK
DL 96
LB 96 83
CB 93 88 81
S
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Old 04-29-2020, 11:15 AM   #14
MIJB#19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinSmith94 View Post
Thanks for the breakdown, I've been seeing pretty similar stuff in my own single-player save, though having injuries on certainly complicates the data. I noticed that by switching a LB with mid-70s ST ratings to not encouraged, my 85ST guy finally started getting some snaps. I don't know why the other guy would get picked before him though given that he was lower rated and had a small role on defense as compared to nothing
Maybe the mid-70 ST is considered a better positional fit than the 85 ST and as a result gets bumped up. Or the game knows behind the scenes what the actual ST ratings are and subsequently puts the superior guy on the field. The first theory to me sounds more likely.
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Old 04-29-2020, 11:32 AM   #15
QuikSand
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Multiple working theories here:

-player as starter/high-workload is meaningful/major inverse factor in getting ST snaps, even if encouraged

-game selects players based on role/weight/position and that might overwhelm your "encouraged" selections

-game knows more than we do about who would be best, and selectively trumps our opinions

-maybe more I'm not thinking of...


I'm hopeful we can learn a good deal tomorrow from the results of my Baltimore team. It's about as controlled as you get - I have exactly 10 guys labeled as "encouraged," some unevenness among their size/positions, etc, and some of them are starters and/or heavy-workload players. Not sure we will "solve" this but there's a wave of data coming.
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Old 04-30-2020, 04:57 PM   #16
QuikSand
lolzcat
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Annapolis, Md
Special Teams snaps:

QB no errant snaps
RB Roberts 78, Podolyak 78, Schweigert 77 - all "not encouraged"
FB Lusignan 378 (correct, he's ST 100 and encouraged, should max out)
TE Barrett 370 (89, few real snaps), Weydahl 276 (90, heavy load), Austin 77 (30, not enc)
WR Stocz 274 (95, enc, starter), Mathews 94 mostly PRs

OL starters G Darby and Foreman, T Shepherd and backup T Dotson all in for 121 (long snaps?), all not encouraged

DE Anthony 101 (96, enc, heavy load), another 100 across other DL (not enc)
LB Tanner 320 (96 enc heavy), Layman 296 (83 enc medium), Rossini 200 (90 enc light), 60 more scattered
CB Baskerville 254 (88 enc light), Wordehoff 249 (93 enc light), Slechta 203 (81 end heavy)
S 60 or so scattered, nobody encouraged
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Old 04-30-2020, 05:23 PM   #17
QuikSand
lolzcat
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Annapolis, Md
Base numbers to help break this down (the game logs don't identify who was active on special teams plays, apparently)... let's try to back this out with just math and logic.

PATs seem to be totally excluded as ST snaps?

26 FG attempts
95 punts
---
121 snaps for long snapper at C, then 4 more G/T OL
(that seems crystal clear here, at least for this team)

Opponent long snap plays:
34 FGs
94 punts
---
129 snaps ... doesn't really correlate to anything obvious

That's 250 plays, with two teams lined up across a standard 5-man OL and interior defense. Then, we have kickoffs...

For us this seems easy, K Thomas was in for 104 plays, minus 26 FG equals 78 kickoffs

For the opponents, I come up with... ugh, tedious... 20 pass + 11 rush TDs, and geez is there an easy way to do this that I'm missing?
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Old 04-30-2020, 05:31 PM   #18
tzach
High School JV
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuikSand View Post

For the opponents, I come up with... ugh, tedious... 20 pass + 11 rush TDs, and geez is there an easy way to do this that I'm missing?


i'd look in almanac -> yearbook -> team statistics -> kick returns :-)

Last edited by tzach : 05-01-2020 at 12:55 AM.
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Old 04-30-2020, 08:42 PM   #19
QuikSand
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Hrm, either I'm super thick, or we're not communicating here. I'm trying to find a correct count of kicks by opposing teams' kickers over the season while playing my team. Right now that feels like it's a game log parsing job, which I'm probably not up for.
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Old 04-30-2020, 09:03 PM   #20
QuikSand
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Join Date: Oct 2000
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Well, for now, I'll assume that the opponents kicked off roughly 70 times. 31 TDs and some number of FGs, plus one per game, minus a couple from scores at the end of a half. Sound about right.

So...
121 us long snapping to punter or P/K
78 us kicking off
129 them long snapping to punter or P/K
70 them kicking off
-----
398 special teams snaps total

That adds up... our top two guys got out there for 378 and 370 ST snaps, so nearly all of them.

So, from the above, we can tell a few things:

-something is pushing random running backs onto the field for significant snaps... either because it's looking for a RB, a second RB/FB group guy, another guy of the right weight, or something similar. Those random snaps seem super-tidy (78,78,77) but for now I'll just attribute that to being random, rather than systematic (and that likely doesn't matter anyhow).

-it is not using my high-ST, encouraged DL as much as I would have expected/wanted... possibly that's because he's a high-volume starter, but possibly it's because the DL group just isn't called for as much as others. His 101 snaps don't seem to add up to a particular set - so my best guess is he's just being skipped over a lot because he's actually tired in-game, or he's just too present in the lineups and is marked as too busy to play special teams much.
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Old 05-01-2020, 01:03 AM   #21
tzach
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuikSand View Post
Hrm, either I'm super thick, or we're not communicating here. I'm trying to find a correct count of kicks by opposing teams' kickers over the season while playing my team. Right now that feels like it's a game log parsing job, which I'm probably not up for.


i see -- i meant Team Statistics in the post above (edited now). but i realize the numbers there don't include touchbacks, so indeed it's not what you are looking for
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Old 05-01-2020, 10:41 AM   #22
MIJB#19
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I've been trying to find my old FOF7 notes on this topic, but I'm afraid they've gotten lost somewhere in the laptop migration process. Sure, there have been some changes in FOF8 (most notable loss of control on kickoff duties, kickholding and gunner assignments; as a result, to have a QB do the kickholding duties, you must discouraged your P for special teams duties). I doubt the entire assignment of the remaining guys (after the gunner) on the field has changed much.
The results that QS is sharing, so far, anecdotally resemble what I remember from previous research, like: always 4 OL guys on punts, at least 2 RB/FB and 1 TE will be thrown out there.
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Old 05-01-2020, 12:26 PM   #23
QuikSand
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Location: Annapolis, Md
Hmm, my P and K are both "not encouraged" on this team (as are all the QBs), but it sure lines up that the punter is being called in to hold for kicks, the snap count is a seemingly perfect match.
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Old 05-01-2020, 12:49 PM   #24
MIJB#19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuikSand View Post
Hmm, my P and K are both "not encouraged" on this team (as are all the QBs), but it sure lines up that the punter is being called in to hold for kicks, the snap count is a seemingly perfect match.
Indeed, that's in line with what I found in FOF8:
if P encouraged -> P = kick holder
else if P not encouraged -> an encouraged QB = kick holder
else if all QBs not encouraged -> P = kick holder
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Old 05-07-2020, 06:54 AM   #25
QuikSand
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Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Annapolis, Md
My big takeaway is that the game seems to be forcing TWO guys from the FB/RB group (on this team) to play special teams, in a lot of situations. Here, when the only guy I had encouraged was my FB, the game seemed to roll dice and just pick an active RB for some ST slot.

So, if you are really seeking to max out ST, make sure you have at least one RB encouraged, and with a solid ST rating. Someone is going to get selected anyway, it appears.
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Old 05-07-2020, 06:56 AM   #26
QuikSand
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Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Annapolis, Md
...I'm guessing there is some more taffy in the selection routines, I have just lost momentum in digging for it. The data above seems like it would be helpful. DL used less than you'd expect based on pure ST ratings, either one RB or two from FB/RB gets pushed in, 4 OL get used on long snaps... that's about all I get from my surface eval.
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