Typical Lebron choke at the buzzer

[larrymcg421]

This is one of the most insane threads ever posted on here. LeBron has (admittedly) missed some 4th quarter shots this year, but that's a pretty small sample size over a person's career. Lots of players have had down years in one area or another. I mean, if he hits some shots next year will he suddenly be "clutch" again?

As mentioned earlier in the thread, he was very clutch against the Wizards last year. Of course, the very jackass that just made a personal insult about the intelligence of people he disagrees with decides that it was only because the refs made terrible calls. Yeah, whining about the refs sure makes you look like a genius.

[Noop]

*popcorn*

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by HiFiRevival

lumping Eldon Brand and Tracey McGrady into the same style of player when trying to make a point about the value of a big man.

He's not lacking anything physical. If he matures to the point of mentally handling the end game, big shot pressure, then he will take the final step into elite status. Right now, he is simply a great player with one glaring flaw.

I'd take LeBron over anyone other than Wade or Kobe at this point if I was starting a franchise, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't be smart enough to identify and try to fix his flaw.

Basketball fans get that. The GED crowd doesn't

You would think a basketball fan would at least know the names of the superstar players in the league. So tell us, how you can "fix" what you call a mental issue? And then once you figure out how to fix it send a copy of it to LeBron, Alex Rodriguez and every other athlete who wasn't born with the "clutch" gene. And since the Wizards are your team better mix up a triple batch of the fix for "Zero" so the next time he promises to drop 50 points on someone he can at least get to 10.

Also that entire last paragraph is just ridiculous. Why on earth when picking the #1 player to build your franchise around, in other words THE GUY on your franchise, would you take someone you say is "potential all-time great" who is missing the "clutch" feature. After all, its clear that you can't win an NBA Championship without that "clutch" player...oh wait, D-Wade's making t-Mobile commercials right now and Kobe's figuring out how he can score 100 in a game next season.

Then again maybe that's the smart draft play - take LeBron and then you can just identify which player has the "clutch" gene and grab him in like the 7th round of a restart draft of the NBA and sub him in the final 5 seconds of a game for LeBron when you need that clutch play. Is Toni Kukoc a clutch player because he made a winning shot when Pippen wanted to sit? I'm sure he would be available late in the draft for you to grab. And since you're talking "clutch" and MJ and the Wizards why weren't they putting MJ in the games to make a bunch of game winning shots to carry the Kwame Brown led Wizards into the playoffs? Does your "clutch" gene weaken with age?

Maybe, and call me crazy, but maybe you need some teammates to win. That Kobe guy you mentioned, how's that working out without Shaq? Where was the clutchness of Wade en route to being swept by the Bulls? Could his clutchness not even win one game? Maybe if I added a hidden clutch rating you would like my game better, huh?

[larrymcg421]

Gary, before I buy your game, I need player attribute ratings in several different categories: 1st quarter, 2nd quarter, 3rd quarter, 4th quarter until 2:00 left, 2:00-1:30 in the 4th quarter, 1:30-1:00, 1:00-0:30, :30-0, and OT. This way I can put together a mad rotation of guys who are really good in specific quarters.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Gary, before I buy your game, I need player attribute ratings in several different categories: 1st quarter, 2nd quarter, 3rd quarter, 4th quarter until 2:00 left, 2:00-1:30 in the 4th quarter, 1:30-1:00, 1:00-0:30, :30-0, and OT. This way I can put together a mad rotation of guys who are really good in specific quarters.

How in the hell are those of us in the GED crowd supposed to handle this much info?

[Izulde]

While I do think there is such a thing as clutch, I find this criticism of Lebron fairly unwarranted. Yes he's had four years in the league, but at 22 years old, he's still several years away from his prime.

Once he hits his prime, both physically and mentally, I think this talk goes away.

[Fidatelo]

I do believe that some players mentally handle pressure situations better than others, but I think it is completely unfair to call someone out as a choker so early in their careers. If he's 32 and still has a history of wilting at the end of games then ya, that's not so good. At this point? Jeez lets just be happy he's so freakin' good in every other aspect of the game.

[dime]

Originally Posted by HiFiRevival

Nobody here is saying he isn't a tremendously talented player with the chance to be an all-time great. What people with a reading comprehension level above that of a retarded emu are saying is that he is missing one feature to his game that would solidify him as more than just a potential all-time great. Jordan, Bird, Magic, Dr. J etc. all hit the big shot when it mattered most...LeBron has yet to do that. He may or may not develop that since it is more a mental than physical attribute. He's not lacking anything physical. If he matures to the point of mentally handling the end game, big shot pressure, then he will take the final step into elite status. Right now, he is simply a great player with one glaring flaw.

I'd take LeBron over anyone other than Wade or Kobe at this point if I was starting a franchise, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't be smart enough to identify and try to fix his flaw.

Basketball fans get that. The GED crowd doesn't.

quit bragging about your GED.

if you're a 'basketball fan', then why don't you know anything about basketball? seriously, you sound like jay mariotti or skip bayless or some other dope who spews a "controversial" talking point (lebron is a choker!) and then clings to it in the face of all reason, vainly hoping that those who don't know any better will see it as some sort of intelligent counter-point. it's not. it's just loud stupidity. at least those guys make money embarrassing themselves...what's in it for you?

p.s. I'm sure that danny ferry will be calling you any day now to "identify and try to fix" lebron james' "flaw". make sure your secretary holds all other calls for HiFiRevival, ferry doesn't like being put on hold.

[amdaily]

Scoreless in the last 7 minutes of a very winable game. Nice!

[stevew]

this is the worst thread since the Michelle Wie one.

[Scoobz0202]

I think we should start a thread about every awesome player and highlight every time they have a poor performance. It would be sweet.

[Groundhog]

amdaily, seriously, we get that for whatever reason you have a dislike of LeBron James that seems to verge on the personal.

The guy very nearly had a triple-double and is the sole reason that the Cavs are playing for a chance to be in the NBA final rather than waiting for the lottery balls to give them Greg Oden.

The Pistons are one of the best defensive teams in the nation, with Prince in particular being probably the best one-on-one defender in the NBA. Having your next best player as Larry Hughes, a guy who shoots the ball about as well as me, makes it a lot easier to key in on a penetrating player like LeBron. Even so, James contributed by nearly netting a triple-double, and the Cavs lost by 3 against the team that is likely the NBA champs this year.

[jeff061]

Verge?

[stevew]

Charles Barkley would approve of this thread. Then again, Barkley never won anything. So he can diss on LeBron kicking for the potential win, instead of going for a potential tie.

[larrymcg421]

Of course LeBron is a genius if the shot goes in, just like Jordan was when he kicked it to win two NBA titles.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by amdaily

Didn't both Jordan and West have only 1 full pro season completed at age 22?

Lebron has 4. Stop comparing ages and look at professional experience.

Okay!

A little hard to compare West, since the league was so different. He made the NBA finals in his 2nd and 3rd seasons in an 8 team league. Even with the small league size he didn't win a title until his 11th season, when there were 17 teams in the league.

Jordan

S1: Playoffs, 1st round
S2: Playoffs, 1st round
S3: Playoffs, 1st round
S4: Playoffs, 2nd round
S5: Conference Finals
S6: Conference Finals
S7: Championship

LeBron

S1: No Playoffs
S2: No Playoffs
S3: Conference Semifinals
S4: Conference Finals

So LeBron is a year ahead of Jordan getting to the conference finals. And he'll have at least three more years to match Jordan's championship and 7 more years to match West's championship.

But I understand that LeBron has such a stellar supporting cast around him. I mean, look he's got an NBA top 50 all-time player with him. Oh wait, that was West and Jordan.

You lose.

[stevew]

If anything, LeBron really was too good his rookie year, and they were never able to draft high enough to get another franchise type player to pair him with. And then the Boozer thing. Hell, the Luke Jackson experiment blew up on them, I wish they would have had JR/Josh smith or Al Jefferson. Ah well. millions in blown cap space too.

[Atocep]

If Greg Oden doesn't play at the same level Tim Duncan is right now and win 2 championships as a rookie he'll have a thread similar to this one. Every year the bar for what we expect from young players is raised, while some people just look for reasons to hate great players.

[Groundhog]

Yeah, Tall Poppy Syndrome is all it is, pure and simple.

[RedKingGold]

My god, do the Caviliers (outside of LeBron) suck. How more wide open can you be Donyell? There was no one within a mile of you, and I could have hit that 3-pointer.

If Steve Kerr = Donyell Marshall, then Jordan would have probably won only four championships instead of six

[spleen1015]

Steve Kerr missed 55% of his 3 pointers.

Donyell Marshall has missed 63% of his 3 pointers so far in his career.

Marshall shouldn't have been shooting.

[wade moore]

larry just pnwed amdaily.

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by wade moore

larry just pnwed amdaily.

Yeah, a little.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by HiFiRevival

LeBron James shouldn't have been passing.

Then Michael Jordan should not have passed to Steve Kerr when Kerr was wide open in the NBA Finals, nor should Joe Montana have looked for John Taylor in the end zone for Super Bowl XXIII when Jerry Rice was wide open, etc. etc. When a good 3-point shooter is open in the corner and the play was meant for the ball to go to Marshall in the first place, then LeBron did the right thing. If you want to blame anyone, blame the idiot of a head coach for going for the win or Marshall for missing the wide open three.

Part of greatness is understanding who your teammates are. You only make that pass if you have a three point specialist on the team and he gets open there, otherwise, you go to the freaking hoop yourself.

Once again, as mentioned earlier in this thread, Marshall is the Cavs three point specialist and the best three point shooter on the team. The play was drawn up exactly the way it happened and LeBron put it to perfection, setting up Marshall for an amazing shot. He just missed.

He took 3 shots in the 4th quarter, went 5-15 overall and as the teams primary scorer put up a whopping 10 points in the biggest game of the year so far.

Aren't the Detroit Pistons considered to be one of the most dominating defensive teams of this era? Didn't they absolutely destroy the Magic and Bulls before they got complacent? The most frustrating thing about watching yesterdays game was seeing some of the idiotic shots put up by Larry Hughes. Once again, if LeBron just had a decent point guard or power foward, the Cavs probably win that game.

As for those here taking potshots at Barkley for his after game comments, it's pretty convenient for you to leave out Magic's identical comments when trying to defend Queen James lack of balls at big moments.

Once again, your blatent hatred for LeBron totally weakens your argument and you contradict your earlier posts saying that your view of LeBron is simply because he cannot come up in the clutch and not that you don't like him as a player.

[Deattribution]

It's pretty simple, even if the guy is the biggest choker in the league -

with James = In conference finals with possibility of playing in the NBA finals.

without James = not in the conference finals, maybe not even in the playoffs.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Deattribution

without James = hoping they win the draft lottery tonight

fixed.

[stevew]

Marshall is usually money from that spot, I don't have the statistical breakdown, but I remember him hitting a ton of clutch shots from that spot in the corner this year. I'm not talking game winners, I'm talking the type of 3s that stop the other team from rallying in the 3rd quarter....shit like that, the kind of stuff that helps you win games. But I only watched like 50 cavs games this year, so what the fuck does my GED brain know. Some genius with a stat sheet and the newspaper every third day can better figure it out I'm sure.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by HiFiRevival

LeBron James shouldn't have been passing. Part of greatness is understanding who your teammates are. You only make that pass if you have a three point specialist on the team and he gets open there, otherwise, you go to the freaking hoop yourself.

Go to the hoop and what? Even if he scores (through the defender and two help defenders) the game is tied and Detroit has 6-7 seconds and a timeout so the ball is at half court. So now you a) have to stop theoretically four players (Billups, Hamilton, Prince, Sheed) who can all hit a game winner especially when the worst that happens is OT and b) if you do go to OT get to play an OT period with James and the rest of the crap he has around him (other than Z, Z was money last night) against four all stars and one former all star in their home gym.

So what's the better chance? Your team with a decent 3 point shooter who is WIDE open taking the shortest 3 point shot on the floor and then trying to get one stop or playing Detroit for a full OT period, at home, in the conference finals and expecting to win that?

Detroit's biggest problem is they know they can flip the switch and turn on the dominance against lesser teams. Cleveland's best chance is to hope Detroit gets lazy and sluggish and steal one at the end - in other words last night exactly. James did absolutely the right thing by making that pass. How can you fault the guy who nearly had a triple double against one of toughest defensive teams in the league? LeBron does understand who his teammates are and its amazing he gets what he does out of them but he's not an outstanding 3 point shooter and in that situation going for the three was absolutely the right move. LeBron drew everyone to him and gave Marshall a look with nobody anywhere near him - LeBron did his job. If it's a one point game and he kicks out for three then I'm right there with you but tying the game meant losing it so I think he did the right thing.

[GoDukes]

What it really comes down to, IMO, is Lebron doesn't play smart. Ever heard him speak (not that it's a sure indicator, but it helps)?

He's a helluva athlete and a very good player, but won't ever be great, IMO, because he's not cerebral enough.

[Logan]

It would've been better if you played the "he bites his nails during crunch time" card.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by GoDukes

What it really comes down to, IMO, is Lebron doesn't play smart. Ever heard him speak (not that it's a sure indicator, but it helps)?

He's a helluva athlete and a very good player, but won't ever be great, IMO, because he's not cerebral enough.

Uh, ever hear Bird speak? Magic?

[jeff061]

I would say the smarts of a player is a very important part in how successful they are early in their careers, especially straight out of high school. Test passed.

[Atocep]

Stats and playoff performances have been quoted (you know, facts) that show Lebron is ahead of any NBA player mentioned so far, yet the best anyone can come up with is he's "not clutch" and he's "not cerebral".

Can I get someone that doens't have a GED to figure out Lebron's clutch rating using the equation below so we can end this discussion? I'm going to try and help the "lebron sucks and isn't clutch" crowd by suppling the equation below (since the arguement is severly lacking in facts).

Standard clutch rating: (heart + guts/intangibles) * (ability to speak/cerebralness + big shots made)

[Logan]

Another fucker who forgot the nail-biting!

[st.cronin]

My favorite part of this thread is how some people (on both sides) act like saying "LeBron is no Jordan" is some kind of insult. Of course he's no Jordan!

[Neon_Chaos]

With a chance to win or tie for OT in an opponent's home court, the concensus among most NBA pros and coaches is to always go for the win.

Apparently, the play wasn't designed for Donyell at all. It just so happened that things unfolded the way they did.

From ESPN

"The play wasn't designed for me to get the shot," Marshall said. "Me not having made a 3 all night, they probably didn't even know I was in the game."


"It looked like everybody collapsed because there was nobody near Donyell," Cavs coach Mike Brown said. "I mean, he could have sat and had a cup of coffee before he even shot the basketball. LeBron trusts his teammates, his teammates trust him, and you've just got to step up and knock the shot down."

The play developed perfectly, and Lebron did what he needed to do. He drew in the defense and found the open man for the three. Marshall had a good look and missed; that's just the breaks of the game.

I'm not sure why Lebron should be compared to Jordan, when in fact he's much closer to Magic Johnson in terms of his size and playing style. Lebron's better at creating shots for his teammates, and he stuck to his strength during those final seconds.

If there's anyone who should be compared to Jordan, it's Kobe. And in that similar situation, Kobe would indeed have taken the shot if he saw even a hint of daylight (even if the play was designed for Marshall).

Steve Kerr, a guy who's hit his fair share of big game 3-pointers has a good article up regarding his thoughts on the pass and why it was a good decision by LBJ23:

hxxp://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/nba_experts/post/Giving-Cavs-their-best-shot;_ylt=Ai3abloOEVdXZ1IoQAvvDq28vLYF?urn=nba,33578

[Logan]

Is there some revisionist stuff going on? Could've sworn I heard something earlier this morning that quoted Brown as saying that was the specific play design.

[Arles]

You guys are missing the point here. Lebron should have dribbled over to the corner, shoved Marshall into the defender to get him space and then drained the 3-pointer himself.

That's what REAL superstarz do!

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by Arles

You guys are missing the point here. Lebron should have dribbled over to the corner, shoved Marshall into the defender to get him space and then drained the 3-pointer himself.

That's what REAL superstarz do!

damn straight.

[GoDukes]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Uh, ever hear Bird speak? Magic?

Yes, all the time. Magic is interviewed almost every time the Lakers play on National TV.

[Carman Bulldog]

[SunDevil]

5 points in the whole second half of the game. 5 points.

[amdaily]

Originally Posted by HiFiRevival

Now spin this one.

Ditto says it all....

[Groundhog]

I hope the Cavs trade him for Robert Horry and Derek Fisher so we can actually go out and win some games next season and maybe even make the playoffs.

[amdaily]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

I hope the Cavs trade him for Robert Horry and Derek Fisher so we can actually go out and win some games next season and maybe even make the playoffs.

This would almost be funny mid-season, but when the Cavs should have a 2-0 lead on the Eastern Conference champs... give me a break.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by amdaily

This would almost be funny mid-season, but when the Cavs should have a 2-0 lead on the Eastern Conference champs... give me a break.

*should*? I don't know about that. The Pistons *should* be stomping the Cleveland LeBronaliers, on paper at least. That they aren't is a combination of the fact that they apparently don't take these games seriously, and that the Cavs have that LeBron James guy on their roster who, even if he isn't scoring, does enough other things to get what is an otherwise lottery-bound roster to the EC finals.

LeBron doesn't have a Scottie Pippen, a Toni Kukoc, or a Steve Kerr. He barely has a Jud Buechler. We've got a 2nd round PG playing big minutes for the sole reason that he's just about the only guy on the roster who seems to be able to knock down an open shot, and a coach who would probably struggle coaching the original Dream Team to an exhibition win over the Kenyan national team.

If we get NBA title-quality players around LeBron and we still can't get over the hump, then I'm willing to discuss this issue. Until then, I'll happily watch my team compete in the EC Finals while fans of the other 26 teams in the league wait for the offseason.

[Young Drachma]

LeBron is just a kid. You all act like he's been in a league a decade and has the sort of talent that Kobe had when he came out. If you had Shaq backing you up, you'd be confident as hell too. Or in Magic's case, James Worthy, Kareem and all of those guys. Hell, Michael Jordan had a better starting cast when he in the playoffs early in his career.

Bottom line is, with LeBron, that squad is a lottery team without having to tank games. He's done nothing short of will that franchise to victory almost so much that we're watching them in their slick new unis and we've basically forgotten that the Cavs were as irrelevant as can be before he showed up.

As for not making the game winning shot, the fact is...he's young. He's not the sort of guy that scores 60 like Kobe and wins games. And if he was, no one would have been heralding him the way they were from before he left high school.

I don't care if this team had Michael Jordan in his prime. They'd still have problems sealing the deal. It's not LeBron's fault his cast of characters are basically a bunch of retreads who should be bench players at best, by and large.

If Detroit was doing anything other than putting the car into cruise control, they'd be winning by 30 or more per night. But it's a testament to LeBron's game and how much he disrupts a defense, that they've been able to stay in these games...and that they gave this same team fits last year.