Werewolf: Hunt for Necromancers - GAME OVER! Post #3469

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Doesn't it seem like SnDvls's statement in that post #644 would be false no matter what? I mean, if king keeps his vote on Sndvls, there's NO chance we lynch a necromancer? That's automatically untrue, as king's vote along does not decide who we lynch. Or am I nitpicking?

I'm pretty sure you are nitpicking b/c I got what I believe to be a "ture" statement. However in true Hoops fashion he never used the words true or false in his reply . It's not about the wording exactly as the guy that is saying its intent.

Plus, when I'm doing that, I'm looking at it. As in, "If we keep our votes on SNDVLS there is no chance we get a nec?, true/false?"

[Barkeep49]

Well in fairness the votes could be kept on SnDvls and still we'd have a chance to get a necro since more votes could accumulate to someone else.

Anyhow I'm willing to trust Dubb and SnDvls. So turning in another direction would be good. I would still really like to hear if someone got a message similar to what Lathum got on D2.

[Coffee Warlord]

Unvote Dubb

Back to the list I brought up last night, I guess.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

Well in fairness the votes could be kept on SnDvls and still we'd have a chance to get a necro since more votes could accumulate to someone else.

Once again, you are looking at it wrong. It is about intent. What did SNDVLS mean when he said that? The response I got was that SNDVLS was not trying to decieve me. He really felt if we all kept our votes on him that we wouldn't get a nec. He was hiding nothing from us with that statement.

My role does not give me a simple true/false like it has in other games. It deals with the persons intent and the fact if they are hiding anything from the group with that statement.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by dubb93

Once again, you are looking at it wrong. It is about intent. What did SNDVLS mean when he said that? The response I got was that SNDVLS was not trying to decieve me. He really felt if we all kept our votes on him that we wouldn't get a nec. He was hiding nothing from us with that statement.

My role does not give me a simple true/false like it has in other games. It deals with the persons intent and the fact if they are hiding anything from the group with that statement.

Fair enough. Like I said I believe you and sndvls now. Which is a huge start for us, having two known goods.

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

Well in fairness the votes could be kept on SnDvls and still we'd have a chance to get a necro since more votes could accumulate to someone else.

I was thinking of that as well, but in reality...that's a reach. A really really long reach. Reminds me of those old D&D Wish spells, where a vicious GM would take whatever you wished for, no matter how intricate, and fuck you over. Just a little too ridiculous, in my book. I as well will take his word.

[Alan T]

So trust list as I can think of right now is:

Path, dubb, sndvls and pending someone today getting a message like Lathum, him .

I think thats the next step for today is someone vouching Lathum's story. The other loose end was the references to Vince making a claim that he had more information on other people.

Some other questions I have is in regards to path and the helmet from yesterday, did you find you could do anything with it? Did anyone find anything about someone replacing Swaggs in the ruling class?

[Barkeep49]

These are all good questions Alan. I still think having the ruling class do a reveal would be helpful.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

These are all good questions Alan. I still think having the ruling class do a reveal would be helpful.

I on the other hand don't. If we assume the ruling class right now is good, the "evil" ruling class can knock them off one or two at a time if they reveal and before we know it we got a nec sitting on the throne.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Alan T

So trust list as I can think of right now is:

Path, dubb, sndvls and pending someone today getting a message like Lathum, him .

I think thats the next step for today is someone vouching Lathum's story. The other loose end was the references to Vince making a claim that he had more information on other people.

Some other questions I have is in regards to path and the helmet from yesterday, did you find you could do anything with it? Did anyone find anything about someone replacing Swaggs in the ruling class?

I asked, but I do not know what the helmet is used for. I'm holding onto it for the time being.

[Chubby]

Hopefully dubb isn't doing what barkeep said he would do if he was a necro soothsayer...

Moving on to others for now is probably a good idea however i would agree.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by Chubby

Hopefully dubb isn't doing what barkeep said he would do if he was a necro soothsayer...

Moving on to others for now is probably a good idea however i would agree.

, give me more credit than that. If I was a nec I wouldn't use my role on day 2 to clear SNDVLS.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by dubb93

, give me more credit than that. If I was a nec I wouldn't use my role on day 2 to clear SNDVLS.

ummm, true.

Since I think you are on most people's "good guy" list, who do you think we should look at? I had a top 3 but it's in pretty shabby shape right now since one was already on my "pretty sure he's good" list and now you're added to that list as well.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by Chubby

ummm, true.

Since I think you are on most people's "good guy" list, who do you think we should look at? I had a top 3 but it's in pretty shabby shape right now since one was already on my "pretty sure he's good" list and now you're added to that list as well.

I have no clue. There is too little information. It seems to me like we are barely starting to hit what could possibly be considered a normal day 2. With only two dead, limited ability to do anything with voting records, and no night kills I think it is nearly impossible to have much of a suspect list at this point.

[Tyrith]

I think assuming there is a necro soothsayer just because there is a good one is a bit of a reach. The role was neutral, so what? It doesn't mean it has to stay neutral once roles were assigned. While it is certainly possible there are two, we shouldn't jump to that conclusion.

So it appears last night we got another round of search for necros. Even if two necros found each other night one it was still a good play for them to search again last night and consolidate their base. If we assume we have five necros that means up to half the players have been searched now (because they do have to search each other); however, I am more likely to believe that if we have five necros that seven or eight people have been searched now because someone out of the cronin/blade/barkeep group probably took two searches from hopeful necros and there's a pretty decent chance of some overlap otherwise. It isn't until the next night or two that we can probably expect to see full team bad guy coordination as the rest of the players get searched out. And I think it's important for us to remember that once this happens we're going to be facing two night kills a night, as four necros can do two guarenteed kills, or two necros plus the head necro using disease will get two kills eventually.

My suspects for today also go back to the cronin list. I'll assume for now that dubb isn't pulling a fake on us, as it seems consistent with what he said yesterday when he was hoping it wouldn't come to a reveal. Saldana isn't brazenly dumb enough to do what he did if he were a bad guy in all likelyhood. Anxiety's vote seemed innocent enough...he didn't do his usual thing where he tries to convince us, but saldana was doing it for him, and that method has gotten him killed two games in a row. Schmidty's vote was almost certainly just schmidty being schmidty. Tangle's vote was a dogpile, and Vince's was a lesser degree of dogpile. That leaves the three in the middle -- Alan, barkeep, and bullet. And bullet could theoretically be pulling the do good innocent newbie trick on us, just a little less quiet than I did it. Otherwise, out of those three, I really have no idea.

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by dubb93

, give me more credit than that. If I was a nec I wouldn't use my role on day 2 to clear SNDVLS.

ha ha...thanks I guess dubb

not sure how to take the rolleyes though

are you saying I"m not worth clearing or I'm a waste of a person to clear?

[saldana]

dubb, sorry i wasnt early enough this morning to save you from having to make your reveal....i thought it was pretty obvious what your role was yesterday when you used it....it was just a matter of reading SNDVLS posts to figure it out, which is what i would have told everyone that was on you early to do, but was still sleeping until after you outed yourself

as of right now, i am leaning towards Lathum for my vote today...he claims he got the "someone is watching you message" 2 nights ago, but no one got it last night, so if we are assuming that the seer scanned him, that would mean the seer didnt scan anyone last night, or that they scanned a Necro, and the wolf isnt aware they were scanned. since there is still some doubt for me, i may look elsewhere and give lathum the benefit of the doubt for another day.

i thought barkeep was high in my Circle, but i realized something last night that downgraded him back to neutral, and the fact that he pushed so hard on dubb early this morning kind of drops him below neutral...he and chubby both were pretty fast to jump on the dubb train this morning, and i would have expected BK to have seen the same thing i saw yesterday in the sndvls situation.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by SnDvls

ha ha...thanks I guess dubb

not sure how to take the rolleyes though

are you saying I"m not worth clearing or I'm a waste of a person to clear?

I'm saying that if I was a nec I would probably have waited till much later to make a move and used it to try and set up a win.

Since we are both egyptians you are more than worth clearing[as would be any innocent that was headed for the gallows], however playing it from the other side it would be completely stupid to clear a villager on day 2, when there are much more devious ways to play with the role.

My role eyes were not directed at you in any way.

The way I look at it the game is all about information. If say on day 6 or so, I could have cleared 2 people, we got a seer clearing multiple people that are still alive to come out, and if we are confident the ruling class is good and they all come out that makes the game that much easier. I would rather clear people than finger baddies with a seer or soothsayer role. First it forces the bad guys hands.

They can't look for more important roles when someone comes out with multiple cleared people. The way I look at it, if I play this right clearing two innocents can be just a good as getting a nec with my role.

[Lathum]

I'm not really surprised that no one has come out and said they were viewed last night. The only reason I did it was because I thought it was possible that other people also had the same thing happen and we could start to develope some circles of trust.

That being said it is obvious I was scanned by the seer and not a necro. At this point it would be extremely foolish for someone else to say they were scanned last night. All that would do would be to narrow the search fields for the necro's and give them an advantage. For every person who is cleared as a "good guy" that helps the necro's find each other. I would be very suspiscous of anyone who wants someone to come out and say they were scanned so I think one of 2 things happened.

1. Seer scan and another "good guy" was cleared

2. Seer scanned a necro and he doesn't want to come out with the information until he has to.

Either way I am not at all surprised no one has come out to validate my story and I would rather they didn't because all it does is help the necro's.

[tanglewood]

Dubb's role reveal makes sense, so I think that he and SnDvls can be placed in the trusted pile for now.

I think that some of the more active players, Barkeep, AlanT and so on, are perhaps more likely to be necros. From my pount of view, the necros need to find each other as quickly as possible, the sooner they meet up the quicker they can start killing, the longer the more likely one of them or more gets offed. So, the necros have to talk and make themselves visible, they have to attempt to stand out, not necesarily hinting that they are bad just get noticed, so that the other necros pick them at night to search for. Of course, even assuming this is true, it's difficult as you can easily conflate players who are naturally active with thos e deliberatley trying to put themselves out there more than ususal. I know that Barkeep always says that more communication always helps the villiage, but in this game I'm not so sure that is exclusively true, more communication helps everyone, so low-liers are not so likely to be bad guys here as they are perhaps normally.

[tanglewood]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I'm not really surprised that no one has come out and said they were viewed last night. The only reason I did it was because I thought it was possible that other people also had the same thing happen and we could start to develope some circles of trust.

That being said it is obvious I was scanned by the seer and not a necro. At this point it would be extremely foolish for someone else to say they were scanned last night. All that would do would be to narrow the search fields for the necro's and give them an advantage. For every person who is cleared as a "good guy" that helps the necro's find each other. I would be very suspiscous of anyone who wants someone to come out and say they were scanned so I think one of 2 things happened.

1. Seer scan and another "good guy" was cleared

2. Seer scanned a necro and he doesn't want to come out with the information until he has to.

Either way I am not at all surprised no one has come out to validate my story and I would rather they didn't because all it does is help the necro's.

If anyone did come out, do you have any information you could use to verify some commonanilty between you two viewings?

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I'm not really surprised that no one has come out and said they were viewed last night. The only reason I did it was because I thought it was possible that other people also had the same thing happen and we could start to develope some circles of trust.

That being said it is obvious I was scanned by the seer and not a necro. At this point it would be extremely foolish for someone else to say they were scanned last night. All that would do would be to narrow the search fields for the necro's and give them an advantage. For every person who is cleared as a "good guy" that helps the necro's find each other. I would be very suspiscous of anyone who wants someone to come out and say they were scanned so I think one of 2 things happened.

1. Seer scan and another "good guy" was cleared

2. Seer scanned a necro and he doesn't want to come out with the information until he has to.

Either way I am not at all surprised no one has come out to validate my story and I would rather they didn't because all it does is help the necro's.

I disagree a little bit here. You saying you are cleared because you were scanned by the seer doesn't necessarily mean that should be what all of us believe. By having someone back up your statement helps us put you on our trust lists without having to have a seer reveal. So yea, it tells the necros you are cleared and the other person is cleared thus saving them from having to scan you themselves.. but us knowing we can trust you is far greater in my opinion than them knowing that we know we can trust you.

Its becoming obvious the way this game is designed that we have a few day head start on the bad guys here. Worst case scenerio, after several days they finally know who is on their side. Thats normally day 1 for them. Right now we are doing their work for them. They are not doing night kills so we need to stop killing good guys during the day.

If we can clear a few people without having to reveal the seer its a good thing for us. Without anyone else coming forward we have no way to validate you today. If you were a bad guy it could be a very good day 1 plot to lure out the seer by saying you got scanned when you didnt. Any game i have been in I would happily give up one bad guy for the seer in most cases (with obvious exceptions in end game scenerios.)

[bulletsponge]

But if Dubbs is the seer (good seer) he scaned SnDvls that first night, not you. so either there is a second necro seer or your lying. im betting on a necro seer, because Dubbs hasnt mentioned your good or evil.

Hmm. Trying to think of how to express it without being insulting. I don't have a problem with the questions being asked or new players not quite sure what to make of things. But I feel with Chubby's questions there is a bigger consistancy to what he does and does not know. Whereas a few posts like the one I quoted from bullet seem to be more inconsistant.. I would expect someone who has some decent idea of bad guy strategy to know the basic flow to the day's order (ie: night action results, discussion, vote, lynch, night action).

Not looking to make a huuuge deal about it though. just something that jumped out at me. Maybe I'm trying too hard to read into people's behavior here.

its hard to be insulted when i cant understand what your trying to say about me, or Chubby

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by bulletsponge

But if Dubbs is the seer (good seer) he scaned SnDvls that first night, not you. so either there is a second necro seer or your lying. im betting on a necro seer, because Dubbs hasnt mentioned your good or evil.




its hard to be insulted when i cant understand what your trying to say about me, or Chubby

Dubbs did not say he was the seer. he said he was the soothsayer. Which means he has the ability to once every 3 days read a line from someone's posts and find out if they were trying to deceive us or not with the words.

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by bulletsponge

But if Dubbs is the seer (good seer) he scaned SnDvls that first night, not you. so either there is a second necro seer or your lying. im betting on a necro seer, because Dubbs hasnt mentioned your good or evil.




its hard to be insulted when i cant understand what your trying to say about me, or Chubby

Dubb said he isn't the seer he said he's the soothsayer

[SnDvls]

damn alan beat me to it

[Schmidty]

Alright, I'm going to finally wade through all the pages since yesterday. Might take a while because I'm pretty busy today, but I'll try to have some thoughts long before the deadline.

I can't keep up with you jokers.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by tanglewood

Dubb's role reveal makes sense, so I think that he and SnDvls can be placed in the trusted pile for now.

I think that some of the more active players, Barkeep, AlanT and so on, are perhaps more likely to be necros. From my pount of view, the necros need to find each other as quickly as possible, the sooner they meet up the quicker they can start killing, the longer the more likely one of them or more gets offed. So, the necros have to talk and make themselves visible, they have to attempt to stand out, not necesarily hinting that they are bad just get noticed, so that the other necros pick them at night to search for. Of course, even assuming this is true, it's difficult as you can easily conflate players who are naturally active with thos e deliberatley trying to put themselves out there more than ususal. I know that Barkeep always says that more communication always helps the villiage, but in this game I'm not so sure that is exclusively true, more communication helps everyone, so low-liers are not so likely to be bad guys here as they are perhaps normally.

If someone were talking an unusual amount this game, I'd agree that'd be suspicious, but Barkeep is just being Barkeep.

-Anxiety

[bulletsponge]

Dubbs did not say he was the seer. he said he was the soothsayer. Which means he has the ability to once every 3 days read a line from someone's posts and find out if they were trying to deceive us or not with the words

Dubb said he isn't the seer he said he's the soothsayer

sorry my mistake, have to go read what the seer does then

[bulletsponge]

is the seer called something else, on the first page rules i dont see anything about him except that the dreamweaver can look for him

[dubb93]

- Mystic: Option to view one player per night. Can summon an Avatar, but must forego seeing for three days to do this (summon on Night 4).

That is the seer.

[hoopsguy]

The conventional "Seer" role is the Mystic in this game. Although that role does have some tweaks beyond the normal "Seer" ...

[path12]

Strikes me that if the seer is taking a few days off in order to summon the avatar that might be a reason nobody is reporting being seen last night.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by path12

Strikes me that if the seer is taking a few days off in order to summon the avatar that might be a reason nobody is reporting being seen last night.

I don't think they can do that till night 3.

[Lathum]

Alan- I know I an a good guy but I never once came out and said I was cleared. The only way I could be cleared is if the seer clears me and I have said a number of times I don't want the seer to come out, I would rather be lynched then have the seer come out. I am a meannless villager and the seer is to valuable to us.

[dubb93]

In the event the seer got a nec last night there is a good chance he is waiting until he can summon his Avatar before he comes clean with everything.

The could explain the whole Lathum situation today. I don't think it is a good idea to lynch Lathum today, give it a few days so someone can either come clean or the seer can summon his Avatar and then reveal his information.

[Alan T]

I agree with that dubb. I think there are probably 15-17 people to look at before Lathum right now. same thing as with you... Both of you could be lying or misleading us.. but its Risk vs reward. We have ways to most likely confirm you and Lathum later. So no sense in going after someone who we have a good possibility of being good.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I don't think they can do that till night 3.

I could be reading wrong yet again, but took that they had to forgo seeing for three days in order to summon to mean that they had to forgo the days first and then summon day 4 or beyond. But I guess it could be that they have to forgo for three days afterwards.....

[saldana]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I don't think they can do that till night 3.

they cant summon it until night 3, that doenst mean they can take nights off before then to build up to it.

[Alan T]

oh, I guess I had read it as by summoning the avatar they would not be able to scan for 3 days. You might be right path now I reread it.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by path12

But I guess it could be that they have to forgo for three days afterwards.....

That was my understanding. I'm betting on a rule clarification at some point today.

[SnDvls]

does the seer have to take 3 straight nights off...doesn't seem like it so it could explain a little...just thinking out loud

[Barkeep49]

Tangle: I think it's a self serving argument to say that quiet people are less likely to be bad considering how quiet you've been this game. I grant you that the bad guys need to figure each out, but I can't imagine they've had much more success from this thread than we've had figuring things out. We do indeed have a headstart so it would be nice to nail one of them today.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by SnDvls

does the seer have to take 3 straight nights off...doesn't seem like it so it could explain a little...just thinking out loud

Well even if he does he still could have decided not to summon the Avatar and instead just concentrate on scanning.

[Abe Sargent]

Question:

I was rereading the rules and I had a question. It says that a normal Nec dies if they attack the EG. Does this mean if they actually attack the EG or if they attack who the EG guards?

If it's latter, then that makes attacking less likely to be successful, especially if the EG lasts for a while.

-Anxiety

[hoopsguy]

Mystic can't scan for three days prior to summoning the Avatar. So there is some sacrifice on his part prior to bringing in the Avatar, not after bringing in the Avatar.

[Alan T]

ok, then that would make perfect sense. Night 1 scan, then take off 2, 3, 4 to summon the avatar on night 4. (or would they not be able to summon till night 5?)

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by Alan T

ok, then that would make perfect sense. Night 1 scan, then take off 2, 3, 4 to summon the avatar on night 4. (or would they not be able to summon till night 5?)

I would think night 5 as they must take off 3 nights.

[Vince]

I know hindsight is 20/20 and all, but I'm surprised reading through the events of this morning that NO ONE seemed to pick up on the soothsayer role for dubb until after his role reveal. I mean, no one even suggested it, and it seemed like one of only 4 options (Brothers, Mystic, Bad Guys Corroborating, Soothsayer) for how he knew 100%. Well, like I said, hindsight is 20/20.

I'm not exactly with Lathum on this one though -- while I do agree that the Mystic should do everything they can to stay under the radar at this point, I don't see it as a bad thing that someone else would come out and say they had been scanned. Sure, it might help the necromancers find each other more quickly...but we need information just as badly as they do. If we keep lynching each other, it's technically helping our cause (simply by giving us more information) but at a much slower rate, while helping the necromancers at the same time. So if, as we all seem to believe, you were scanned two nights ago by the mystic and you came out clean, if even ONE more person were to come out about having been scanned and we don't lynch them because of it, that's a victory in my book.

[Vince]

The short version of that post is as follows:

I think that having a "known good guy" (via a reveal of someone being scanned last night) is worth enough to offset the cost of helping the bad guys figure out who they are.