Time for a Politics Forum Section?

[QuikSand]

I have long been a pretty adamant supporter of keeping the "General Discussion" forum intact. I like the idea of having all the on-topic and all the off-topic stuff all lumped in together to get maximum exposure for the FOFC poulace. Even though I (as of yet) don't play the werewolf games, for example, I wouldn't want to see them cast off to their own section of the forum -- as long as they are labeled, I have no problem skipping over them. It works fine for me, and I can suffer through an occasional mistake when a thread title doesn't really decribe its contents all that well.

However, the recent escalation of the ever-present partisan political garbage that is pervading this forum looks like it has me rethinking my general position on such matters. I think the time has probbaly come for us to separate out this garbage from the rest of the forum -- and I guess mechanically the best way to do this is to create a separate section. That way, the forum members who want to engage in that sort of mudslinging and what seems to pass for debate can do so, and it doesn't have to have a deleterious effect on the many members who don't really want any part of it. If I go into a labeled political section, I at least know what I'm in for -- I'm there with my eyes open. I don't have to run the constant risk of being enraged by this sort of nonsense seeping into all sort of threads that nominally just deal with current events or the like.

I know the division won't likely be perfect, and I really don't know whether such a thing would make life easier or harder for the site's moderators (a meaningful issue to me). But I really am not wild about the idea that people may be coming to (or being encouraged to come to) FOFC for the primary purpose of engaging in partisan, vitriolic, nasty debates. If that's really the case, then maybe we practically need to just recognize it for what it is -- a bit like we did with Hattrick some time ago -- and set up a separate pen for those folks to do what they want to do.


Maybe, to paraphrase an old political saying that has made the rounds for years and years, "It's a bad idea whose time has come."

[yabanci]

I strongly, strongly support this and have been thinking the exact same thing for the last week.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Adding my support for this suggestion.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Adding my support for this suggestion.

It worries me that we're increasingly in agreement, but yes.

[Axxon]

I'm in agreement as well.

[sachmo71]

I am against this.

[st.cronin]

I disagree, although not strongly.

Any topic related to current events will inevitably be political. I don't see how you can really separate the two.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

I know the division won't likely be perfect, and I really don't nwo whether such a thing woudl make life easier or harder for the site's moderators (a meaningful issue to me).

I think it would, and here's my rationale:

Currently one of the problems is political discussion popping up in heretofore non-political threads. While the political element of the discussion may continue just fine for a while, it may also spiral out of control into mudslinging quickly.

As it stands now, if politics comes up in a thread, one can't say "look, no politics" because there's no rule against that. So one has to wait for it to spiral out of control before action can be taken.

With a separate section of the forum (or just a ban on politics in general) and a rule about this, the problem is (more or less), solved.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I disagree, although not strongly.

Any topic related to current events will inevitably be political. I don't see how you can really separate the two.

You can move the thread once it becomes political. Simple.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I disagree, although not strongly.

Any topic related to current events will inevitably be political. I don't see how you can really separate the two.

Agreed. The spiralling out-of-control Katrina thread shows how the political garbage will get thrown in anywhere.

[kingfc22]

That new section would set the record for most closed threads.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by kingfc22

That new section would set the record for most closed threads.

Or not. If everyone there is there with an understanding that things can and will get ugly and partisan, don't you think that the number of truly offended parties would decrease?

Beats me, but it's at least possible.

[Subby]

I also think that folks who repeatedly fail to keep politics/religion in the new forum should aslo be subject to suspension...

[saldana]

i think this is a great idea. another site i am on has their boards broken down into 9 topics, and for the most part threads are started where they should be, but if not, an admin moves them to the proper part of the board. it works very well, as if you want to avoid the politics, just dont go to that part of the board (we actually have features that allow our admins to shut off the 3 off topic boards if users dont even want to see the headers) it makes everything alot less cluttered, and helps users avoid stuff they dont want any part of.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Axxon

You can move the thread once it becomes political. Simple.

My point wasn't that it will BECOME political; it will BE political right away.

What this will mean is that the General Discussion section would become just sports talk, gossip, and personal news.

I don't know if we want that.

For example, the Rehnquist thread - even just the news of his death at first - obviously should go in a politics section, rather then general discussion.

I don't feel too strongly about this; I'm just saying that what is undesirable is NOT all political discussion, but rather distasteful political discussion, and I don't think that's easily separated.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Axxon

You can move the thread once it becomes political. Simple.

But that isn't always good for the people that started the thread in an a-political manner.

I'm not sure how I feel overall about this proposal. I think removing political threads will cut down on the total amount of posting. FOFC is probably healthy enough to withstand that loss, but I do believe a board needs a critical mass of posts to keep people interested. In leaner times, politics often keeps things going.

I also think a definition of "politics" is hard. I know albionmoonlight (and others) often posts legal and/or philosophical questions. These are not "partisan" discussions (although they can become them), but may well be "politics." I would hate to see threads like that go away to another forum.

Even though 90%+ of my posts probably fit within the "political" category, I am pretty sure I wouldn't even bother to visit a "politics" forum. I'm not sure that is bad thing (as politics threads rarely make me feel "good" and waste too much of my time sometimes).

So, I'm still on the fence and waiting to see arguments from both sides.

[Ksyrup]

My only concern with moving threads that turn political into a separate forum is that we lose, in this forum, the ability to continue otherwise decent discussions of non-contentious issues. And I think it would somewhat defeat the purpose if everytime that happened, we had to follow the thread into a forum we really don't want to visit and wade through the fighting to continue those discussions.

I guess the question is, would it be easier to stop the fighting in this forum and force those who wish to keep it going to start a new thread in the other forum, or move the thread to the other forum and force those who want to continue non-contentious discussion to start a new thread here?

Either way, I assume this would increase the workload for the moderators.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by kingfc22

That new section would set the record for most closed threads.

Not necessarily. Why bother closing them?

This board is an example of what I mean. I like reading it but I haven't ponied up the money for a subscription.

hxxp://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/

They have a forum called the Pit which is where people go to have more or less unmoderated rants and discussions.

This forum has simple rules but good ones.

Pit rules:

1. I don't want anyone posting that they're simply in the thread to watch the fireworks. This means no posts like ":ulls up a lawn chair::"

2. No post parodies without links in the original post. Otherwise, I'm likely to close and/or delete the thread, and get royally pissed off at the thread starter.

3. Don't say or imply that someone is on your ignore list.

4. Absolutely no hate speech.

******************

Now, they do have political and religious discussions in the appropriate forums but once they get heated, bam, they go to the Pit. That way, those who read it can't complain because they're reading in the pit.

We don't need to get that elaborate but the system works and getting a separate forum is a step in the right direction.

[revrew]

I'll voice a similar concern as st.cronin. While I don't like to see mindless partisanship any more than the next guy, as long as "current events" are a part of the general discussion, politics and/or religion will inevitable creep in. Since politics and religion two of the foundations of worldview, it is impossible to divide those topics (I know, nobody said anything about religion until now, but I think it's parallel) from discussion on other topics.

The proposed solution that "as soon as it's political" bump it to a different forum isn't an acceptable solution IMO. I respect the intent, but I disagree with this proposal.

I might offer yet a third option, which would be to create a "politics penalty box," a seperate forum that a mod could throw a thread to if it becomes overtly mudslinging or nasty. This would be a clue to the rest of us that what may have started as a reasonable political discussion ceases to be such.

While I dislike the partisan or religious nastiness that creeps into this discussion board now and then, I would hate to see such topics excluded from our primary discussions.

[Anthony]

i disagree. i'm bothered more by the most retarded theads started by QS than the political threads. QS must think he's the most interesting person in the world, what with the schlock he posts that he thinks passes as entertainment.

it's tricky business deciding what stays in General Discussion and what doesn't. for the most part if something gets moved to its own forum a lot of good info possibly will be missed because only a small percentage of FOFC's visitors utilize the various other forums.

[Butter]

I used to be one of the partisan arguers on here, but got tired of it after a while, and think this idea would definitely help things... I couldn't get through the Katrina thread (actually, 2 of them) without wanting to strangle somebody by the end. I'll keep that kind of crap to myself, but for those that always feel the need to play GOP v. Dems, a separate forum would save the rest of us from having to read the same rehashed attack/defense garbage over and over again.

[sachmo71]

Would it be too much to ask people not to instantly label someone with different viewpoints as an idiot?

[Bee]

I'd like to see this as well. To me the biggest reason is for new users who come here interested in FOF or other text sims and see the general discussion forum cluttered with political garbage may not want to stick around. While I like the fact that there's a wide range of discussions here, the political ones tend to get pretty ugly and it just makes the board as a whole look bad IMO.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by John Galt

But that isn't always good for the people that started the thread in an a-political manner.

I thought about this but really, why not? It's usually several pages before the breakdown occurs and by that time mostly anyone who is going to read it already has and can follow it to its new home.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by sachmo71

Would it be too much to ask people not to instantly label someone with different viewpoints as an idiot?

Yes, you idiot.

just kidding...

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

For example, the Rehnquist thread - even just the news of his death at first - obviously should go in a politics section, rather then general discussion.

If that's the definition of "political," then my vote is for no. However, I suspect your definition is way too broad. Current events should definitely be posted here, and I don't see a problem with comments about his passing, or discussion about possible successors, for example. But, if people want to argue over what this means for the country and such, then it becomes a politically-charged discussion and potentially not appropriate for this forum.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by revrew

I might offer yet a third option, which would be to create a "politics penalty box," a seperate forum that a mod could throw a thread to if it becomes overtly mudslinging or nasty. This would be a clue to the rest of us that what may have started as a reasonable political discussion ceases to be such.

An interesting idea, but I think the result would just be to threadkill. Only the true crazies would continue the thread after that, and I doubt even they would in most cases.

[Flasch186]

im cool wiht it, although putting POL in front of a thread title was good enough for me too.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I'm just saying that what is undesirable is NOT all political discussion, but rather distasteful political discussion, and I don't think that's easily separated.

I absolutely agree with this point, but I fear that there may not be a truly practical way to separate the two.

As I said above, I have always been in the "keep it all together" camp on these mini-debates (and we have had a number of them over the years here at FOFC), but I have been moved to switch sides with respect to the partisan politics stuff. It has just gotten so caustic, that I now make it a point to avoid most any thread in the main forum that is'nt clearly labeled with something that actually interests me and is clearly not political. That has turned my thinking inside out -- it really ought to be the other way around, where I (or a random forum member) could feel free to read most everything, and only should need to steer clear of things with obviously dangerous titles or subjects. We have seen a few threads with a "POL" label or something along those lines - but I don't think we can count on the thread-starters to do this all the time, as we see how current events and other discussions can rapidly turn into nasty politics, despite the thread's original intentions.

[Dutch]

I volunteer to be the mod of the new politics forum. As a selfless-service to the fine folks of FOFC, of course. I will need admin rights to delete threads and modify others posts. k thx.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

im cool wiht it, although putting POL in front of a thread title was good enough for me too.

exactly - the problem isn't with political threads or current event threads, but with threads that veer into an ugly place that nobody cares about except for those few actually posting. I don't know how you create a separate forum for threads like that - I think it's not really feasible.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by sachmo71

Would it be too much to ask people not to instantly label someone with different viewpoints as an idiot?

I know this was a rhetoricl question, but I think that actually is too much to ask. Or rather, it's too much to enforce. If "being a jerk" is an actual offense on this board, then we give far too much leeway to our moderators, and put them into untenable positions on making way too many judgment calls on censoring content.

Right now, as I see it, our line is basically drawn at punishing actions that are harmful to the community. It's probably not perfect, as we know people complain on both sides about it, but the goals are the correct ones - to preserve the community.

I don't like name-calling (does anyone?) but the line there is far too gray for me to call for content-driven enforcement along those lines.

[ISiddiqui]

Bah, keep them all together. It makes the community more fun.

Though if we really need to get rid of some, a "Politics Penalty Box" as revrew stated may be the answer.

[revrew]

Originally Posted by Subby

I also think that folks who repeatedly fail to keep politics/religion in the new forum should aslo be subject to suspension...

Perhaps Subby meant this as satirical, exaggerated humor.

But were this position taken seriously, this is exactly what I would oppose most vehemently. To say a man can't talk his religion is to say the man can't talk. A policy like this would mean I leave the board permanently.

No, that's not some inflammatory ultimatum. I simply mean to point out the consequences of segregating our conversations.

[Subby]

Originally Posted by revrew

Perhaps Subby meant this as satirical, exaggerated humor.

But were this position taken seriously, this is exactly what I would oppose most vehemently. To say a man can't talk his religion is to say the man can't talk. A policy like this would mean I leave the board permanently.

No, that's not some inflammatory ultimatum. I simply mean to point out the consequences of segregating our conversations.

My point was just to keep it in the appropriate forum, that's all...

[Arles]

My concern on separating this forum is that people will undoubtedly splinter off and might not want to check both. This means that there will be less discussion on the main board. Still, I don't think it would be an awful idea. It may just hurt the overall responsiveness to this board (which is one of the main advantages - in addition to the diverse personalities).

[Icy]

I like the idea so i don't need to skip them, i'm interested on politics but never on discussing about them. I don't see the point on discussing politics, it's like religion, you won't ever convince the other part and there are always fanatics that destroy all the constructive discussion, also some ppl becomes really agressive when discussing politics and they end just insulting when they don't have any other argument.

I always skip that threads and will keep doing it so yeah, another section would be great imho.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Arles

My concern on separating this forum is that people will undoubtedly splinter off and might not want to check both. This means that there will be less discussion on the main board. Still, I don't think it would be an awful idea. It may just hurt the overall responsiveness to this board (which is one of the main advantages - in addition to the diverse personalities).

I absolutely agree that this is a bad thing to do, and will hurt the general discussion forum. For me, the question is whether that loss is worth it.

[vtbub]

I'm for moving threads that become shitkickers into their own litter box.

Current event threads are one thing, but keeping ones unwanted tireless tripe is another.


Open a new fourm.

[sachmo71]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

I know this was a rhetoricl question, but I think that actually is too much to ask. Or rather, it's too much to enforce. If "being a jerk" is an actual offense on this board, then we give far too much leeway to our moderators, and put them into untenable positions on making way too many judgment calls on censoring content.

Right now, as I see it, our line is basically drawn at punishing actions that are harmful to the community. It's probably not perfect, as we know people complain on both sides about it, but the goals are the correct ones - to preserve the community.

I don't like name-calling (does anyone?) but the line there is far too gray for me to call for content-driven enforcement along those lines.

We don't enforce too much around here, nor was I asking for it. What my point is that we should have guidelines, and one of them would to to try to show respect for other posters. It was a lesson I learned long ago, and perhaps just having something like that posted would help. I doubt it, but it might.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

exactly - the problem isn't with political threads or current event threads, but with threads that veer into an ugly place that nobody cares about except for those few actually posting. I don't know how you create a separate forum for threads like that - I think it's not really feasible.

On the board I mentioned above those are the posts that are moved and they can be started anywhere but what generally happens is people know that things are as they are and simply start those threads in the appropriate place.

Of course, that isn't a "politics" forum it's the Pit and it would be nice if we considered a new forum that way, a much less moderated place with more exreme postings.

You'd still have to stop certain behavior but for the most part anything goes and it doesn't mess with the flow in the general forum.

What would be cool is if the post was moved and whoever caused that would be ghost banned everywhere except the unmoderated forum for a while which would discourage people from threadjacking.

[Anthony]

hey, people have to talk about something. jim certainly doesn't do his part to engage his customers. FOF is the common denominator here, if there isn't a steady supply of FOF-related content then people have to have a reason to come here, or else this place would have become irrelevant long ago. if jim wants a pure, on topic FOF only site (and he never gave any indication that he wanted that), let him start his own message board on his site.

the sooner we rename this place "Text Sim Central", the better. this site has long outgrown its dependence on FOF games to have a purpose. if people want to post political garbage then whatever, i generally have a good eye on what threads to avoid, and i generally know when to bow out of a thread once its gone downhill. no one is going to change anyone's opinion by posting something - when people realize that then the need to debate here will subside.

anyway, if the alternative to having political threads here is QS posts more crap about bird watching, his travels, listening to philosophy tapes during his commute or his bad puzzles - i'm sticking with the political threads. at their best they can be quasi-informative.

[Scarecrow]

I'm all for a new section for just political threads, but I want it taken one step further: Political threads do not appear when pressing the new posts button.

That way, noone will stumble into a political thread - they will have to physically enter the political section.

Although I don't know if this is even possible.

[Kodos]

Did QuikSand kill your mother?

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by sachmo71

Would it be too much to ask people not to instantly label someone with different viewpoints as an idiot?

You'd think so ... wouldn't you?

It's a tough call ... especially from a moderator standpoint. I think the probably isn't so much the political discussions as the form of "debate" people engage in during these threads. At some point it reaches the name-calling level and it's downhill from there.

Axxon's "The Pit" suggestion has merit. Political threads aren't the only problem. Other threads degenerate into the muck as well, but obviously political threads or threads that turn political have a much higher percentage.

I'd favor a separate "unmoderated" forum aside from the general discussion with limited rules -- no porn, no excessive language, etc. that would get us flagged as a questionable site -- and a couple of tighter rules in the General Discussion, chiefly no name-calling. You call someone on the forum an idiot and you're in the box. I think we do a pretty good job of reporting threads, apparently, so I think for Ryan and Ben it would just be making a call once a thread is reported.

I don't buy the argument that we lose "valuable info" in pointless threads. I think we lose more "valuable info" when good discussions descend into chaos because a handful of people can't control themselves.

I get involved in these discussions much less than I used to, because I try to steer clear of them because they are such a waste of time.

[Marmel]

I like the Pit idea, but I think a better description would be something like "The Dump", where any thread that begins to spiral out of control for any reason is moved there.

I also think it is high time we took a couple more volunteers to help moderate. Ryan is mostly a hand-off guy and Skydog doesn't do a good job, IMO, all on his own. For instance, the Katrina thread was an FOFC embarrassment, but good ole' SD was away and didn't want to deal with it when he returned. A small group of 3 or 4 moderators who can esentially cover most of the clock would be a welcome addition around here.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

I know this was a rhetoricl question, but I think that actually is too much to ask. Or rather, it's too much to enforce. If "being a jerk" is an actual offense on this board, then we give far too much leeway to our moderators, and put them into untenable positions on making way too many judgment calls on censoring content.

Right now, as I see it, our line is basically drawn at punishing actions that are harmful to the community. It's probably not perfect, as we know people complain on both sides about it, but the goals are the correct ones - to preserve the community.

I don't like name-calling (does anyone?) but the line there is far too gray for me to call for content-driven enforcement along those lines.

I do understand that, but I tend to think the exact opposite. I agree that punishments now are typically drawn to what is "harmful" to the community, but that is a huge grey area to me. I think some posts in recent threads were very harmful to the community (this thread alone is evidence of that fallout) but drew no punishment. I don't necessarily disagree with that, because the most infamous thread of late degenerated into such a mess that it was the online equivalent of a hockey fight that included the goalies going at it. You could toss eight or nine people from the game, but it's too late at that point.

I think name-calling is a pretty cut-and-dried area. How many times have we seen someone say, "People like you may me sick" or "You are such a tool"? I won't pretend I'm not guilty of that; I'm certain that I am. If it were against the rules, I certainly woudn't do and if I did I would deserve some time in the box.

[Franklinnoble]

Only a Nazi would want a separate political forum.

[Anthony]

i would be the Emperor and dominate if there was a Pit. tread lightly people, you don't want me on level 10+. once the kid gloves come off you wouldn't have any mod to protect your feelings.

just keep the status quo. there isn't enough entertaining content on this site to make it worthwhile coming to everyday, decreased posting or having to go to separate forums would make it all to easy for me to just move on to something else.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

i would be the Emperor and dominate if there was a Pit. tread lightly people, you don't want me on level 10+. once the kid gloves come off you wouldn't have any mod to protect your feelings.

just keep the status quo. there isn't enough entertaining content on this site to make it worthwhile coming to everyday, decreased posting or having to go to separate forums would make it all to easy for me to just move on to something else.

I'd relish a confrontation with you in the pit but you've already given yourself the weenie way out with your last sentence.