Werewolf XX - Of Demons and Elementals (Humans Win!)

[Poli]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

AE, any last-minute thoughts on the guys on my "discuss" list (including you)?

Not really, and please don't think my absence is guilt related. I was trying to spend as much time as I can with my wife. Leaving, especially after a long stay home, is always most difficult.

As for me, I'm a villager. There's no other way around it. I'd guess, and I'm just typing as quickly as I can now without really thinking, you could look at my "interrogation" of blade a night or two ago as proof I am a villager. I tried to grill blade when I thought he was an elemental. Obviously, I'm a dunce. I didn't get it.

If I were a demon, I certainly wouldn't have gone through that, I'd already know the stuff I asked.

And with that, I'll be driving by your home probably sometime around midnight. I'll honk my horn as I pass.

See you guys in the morning. I don't work till noon, so I may get some net time on my roommate's computer before I go in.

[hoopsguy]

Dacman, do the elementals care about the well-being of the warlock and the druid?

[Blade6119]

Im back...and ill be around all night i believe...i am fairly certain ardent is on the up and up so far...i might be far off, but thats where i stand on him. Path i cant say...normally id say its just the new guys play, then WVU did it last game and that thought kicked my ass...pass seems good too, taz i dont get...he seems good, just an odd play and even odder that coffee would create two secret roles just for tie breakers...doesnt sound right with the other roles i know to exist. Barkeep and sun i talked about, and gram im confused on. People think king hit on him, but king was tked(another human)...since no one has come out to claim killing king(I DONT KNOW WHY SOMEONE HASNT, DEMON OR ACTUAL GUY), id be more inclined to assume someone is merely using that to frame gramat...Saldana is now been killed twice(or tried to be killed)...who did he name, WVU and Cronin....wvu is good and got all of saldana's attention...cronin kinda flew under the radar in that debate...i find that highly odd.

As for demons, and this is more directed at hoops then anyone since hes on and i believe i know what he is. EVERY human appears to have a secret role...id venture a guess that every demon does too. brutal, cunning, the works...in fitting with that, a cunning viewed(maybe cronin, maybe not) would appear good...and in fitting with roles barkeep would be a perfect fit for brutal wolf...-2(1 other at lynch besides himself and 1 night kill)...food for thought as i wade through my decision

[Barkeep49]

I am a -2 for the villagers count. That is not what a brutal wolf is.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

I am a -2 for the villagers count. That is not what a brutal wolf is.

Your saying you count as 2 villagers, not two villagers would die if you die?

[Barkeep49]

Since we don't know for sure there is a bodyguard I hesitate to fully explain my role at this time. It's more fair to say that if you kill me it is a 2 villager swing against us (the villagers).

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

Since we don't know for sure there is a bodyguard I hesitate to fully explain my role at this time. It's more fair to say that if you kill me it is a 2 villager swing against us (the villagers).

I understand you dont want to give details away, i respect that...im saying i believe sun or cronin claimed killing them would make for a 4 kill night, possible brutal wolf out there, and the fact that your reveal makes it more detrimental for me to pick you then even the seer at this point(seems convenient) is making me think about it....im just putting all my thoughts out there so when i do change the vote(if i need to) people can see all my reasons for whoever i pick.

[Blade6119]

hoops, come out to play lol i see you lurking, lets dance you and i

[hoopsguy]

Blade, if you think you know my role then hopefully you aren't looking to off me tomorrow. If you are still thinking about killing me then you obviously have me mistaken for something else.

As far as Barkeep's "-2" statement, you either believe him or you don't. I wouldn't think he is being cute with a "brutal wolf" statement there.

I agree on there being a lack of relationship between King pushing Gram and his being killed. I strongly suspect that King was killed because someone thought he was playing a quiet game as a demon. I've had the assassin power in a game before and you want to use it early so it isn't wasted - you go with your gut and hope it works out.

[hoopsguy]

And I'll be here most of the night - don't worry about me being a shrinking violet

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Blade, if you think you know my role then hopefully you aren't looking to off me tomorrow. If you are still thinking about killing me then you obviously have me mistaken for something else.

I think i know what role you want me to believe you have...just like i knew you of all people would read through my elemental positioning and see my real role(though i gave it away after awhile)..if that role is true, then your first statement may be right

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

As far as Barkeep's "-2" statement, you either believe him or you don't. I wouldn't think he is being cute with a "brutal wolf" statement there.

I tend to disagree...he wouldnt be lying, and i think if i was a wolf the biggest fear i would have would be claiming a role someone already has...with sooooo many roles, the wolves cant claim outlandish roles as the may already be in play. Becuase of this, a play such as this is conservative play for a brutal wolf...position himself as a need villager and not an excess one(like taz claims to be)...i dont get claiming it though as he wasnt yet on the block in my mind(others looked at him but for today i control his fate for the most part) and until his -2 he wasnt in any real danger...i called a few people out i didnt suspect to see reactions...some played perfectly back into my plans

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

I agree on there being a lack of relationship between King pushing Gram and his being killed. I strongly suspect that King was killed because someone thought he was playing a quiet game as a demon. I've had the assassin power in a game before and you want to use it early so it isn't wasted - you go with your gut and hope it works out.

Yes and no, as ive held off my duke role despite feeling in gut the past few lynches were astray. I think after i claimed king was the seer it was awfully simple to throw gramat in the fire, and in these games usually the easy way is the wrong way. In WW:

The Road Not Taken


TWO roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth;

Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same,

And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

[Blade6119]

dola, that means usually the easier road or the road everyone else is taking is the wrong road, evidenced in every game ive every played in. Look at dubb last game...just saying, as that idea is a cornerstone of my play in every game...look where no one is looking, go down the road no one dares go

[hoopsguy]

Heh, you cannot ever get enough Robert Frost in WW.

Based on the lists I've published, Barkeep remains on my bad guy short list. But he hasn't claimed a role, just indicated he is important. I agree with everything you are saying, except that I don't know that the "-2" means anything other than a way to emphasize that he should not be lynched.

I'll go back and look at the Gram bandwagon, but I thought it stemmed from Cronin's pretty severe warning. I really want to understand the Cronin/SnDvls relationship better, but neither of those guys are spitting out answers that convince me of a sure direction.

[hoopsguy]

Off to dinner, back in a few.

[Barkeep49]

When you kill a normal villager it's a minus 1 to the village side. If you kill me besides lowering the villager count you will be making it an additional villager harder to win. I have a role and would have used it already were it not for game circumstances beyond my (or for that matter CW's) control.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Heh, you cannot ever get enough Robert Frost in WW.

I think its quite fitting, you of all people should understand what i mean by it. Gramat has been presented on a silver platter, has had NO ONE(barring me now) defend him(just like WVU back when everyone went after him)...if he was bad, i would think there would be people pushing back...it has been way too easy, which 99.9% of the time means its way wrong

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

I'll go back and look at the Gram bandwagon, but I thought it stemmed from Cronin's pretty severe warning. I really want to understand the Cronin/SnDvls relationship better, but neither of those guys are spitting out answers that convince me of a sure direction.

Cronin...and were back to all my problems with everything...the other guys Saldana(now dead) accused...claims to clear the person who keeps accusing me and saying im asking for role reveals(which i never have i dont believe, though im not sure it wouldnt be a bad idea if were as close to losing as some people think...some people seem to be saving supposedly grand roles for later in the game, when i keep hearing we could lose tonight if i lynch the wrong person or tomorrow) Cronin presented gramat up, a quiet person who hasnt been around to defend himself(sounds just like dacman last game when he was the seer), and has done nothing of note to help the villagers besides pushing to get me killed...sun and st.cronin only seem to show up when they get called out...go back through their posts recently(especially sun) and they always come like 5 posts after someone called them out...all interesting to me...where you tie in with your supposed clearing of cronin i havent decided yet, but cronin and sun are my leading baddies right now based on everything...i tend to believe you and your role(especially after the double saldana kill...i dont feel you would do that)

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

(especially after the double saldana kill...i dont feel you would do that)

But your doubts about me indicate that you think I would make such a move. I think my record speaks more strongly than that.

[Passacaglia]

Non-sequitur here, then I'll read the rest of the Blade/hoops convo...

How come no one is discussing dubb?

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

But your doubts about me indicate that you think I would make such a move. I think my record speaks more strongly than that.

Lol, nice cocky comment barkeep...I see it one way in regards to you...nobody accusing you was killed...last game i accused you all game and you never killed me...it fits exactly with that play style if you look at it that way. Not saying it was a bad move, although i would have gone a different direction had i been a wolf. Just saying i could see you making that move, as half of the job of night kills is to kill humans, the other half confuse us and tell us nothing...all killing saldana did was kill a human, not give us any clues, tell us we screwed around on the day that whole mess went down, and not give us much help...its a good move, not the best...but dont for a second think a good player wouldnt make it, or claim its outside your track record...if anything, it fits perfectly with what you did last game

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Non-sequitur here, then I'll read the rest of the Blade/hoops convo...

How come no one is discussing dubb?

Someone, dont remember who cleared him...the way i see it we have a wolf on some side of this argument for life today, be it cronin, sun, barkeep, hoops, myself or even you(though i tend to think your ok)...i figure its better to take a shot at people who have talked and have evidence against them then a random shot at a quiet one...after we find out in this lynch who was telling the truth or lying, we start a web back...today a talkative, active person should die...from that we should be able to draw some conclusions...killing dubb today would leave us nowhere, unless i was riht that someone cleared him and he turned out bad...if hes good, dubb taught us again we cant trust people clearing others, even if the person they are clearing is good

[hoopsguy]

Barkeep, in the game we played together as wolves I was usually the one arguing for high-risk/high-reward attempts. And in the last game you took the approach of targeting the quiet players. Blade covered that piece of the answer in his response.

In short, the double-up on Saldana did not make me feel any better about you either.

[hoopsguy]

I have put Dubb on my trust list. Because I am just about positive about his role and it is non-demon. But I would like to have him as part of the discussion because I think he could help us sift through some of the data.

[Blade6119]

Anyone else have views on my comments about secret wolf roles(not who has them, just existence)...its hard for me to believe with all the roles we have they dont have help too...either there are 4, or they have stuff like cunning and brutal...anyone else have a thought?

[Barkeep49]

Well I think cronin has hinted pretty strongly that they have some sort of extra night kill roll.

And I agree that they are likely to have additional powers as well.

With three wolves I could easily see the following roles:
Druid
Brutal Wolf
Extra Kill Wolf

That seems like it would be enough of an evening out for all the goodies us humans have.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

Well I think cronin has hinted pretty strongly that they have some sort of extra night kill roll.

The wolves do, he does, or are they one in the same...if it wasnt for hoops trying to clear him cronin would be my pick, but im trying to trust hoops..its just cronin isnt doing him any favors

[hoopsguy]

Er, warlock. Druid is the good guy, right?

I don't have anything of substance on the wolf roles. But I think a brutal wolf is a strong possibility. Would love for an elemental to take that demon out

[Barkeep49]

By druid I meant warlock yes.

[WVUFAN]

Color me suspicious, I'm still not sold on "elementals are our friend" idea. Whereas there's no need to kill an outed elemental, I still don't know how they win. I'm still believing that the Elementals win in a fashion similar to how we or the demon-worshippers do. I don't believe they win in conjunction with a Village or Demon victory.

I'm just saying -- there's more to the Elementals and their victory conditions that we are considering.

[TazFTW]

Anyone with a current vote count?

[hoopsguy]

Werewolf games make for strange allies sometimes. But I will continue to suggest alternate targets to Cronin, no matter what he says from now until the deadline.

I'm dying to know who the warlock is - at this point I think he is the key to the game. We need to get him on one of the next two lynches. I don't think the elementals will help us out with tracking him down and I'm guessing he can potentially help them win the game faster with favors.

[hoopsguy]

WVU, I'm in complete agreement with you. But if they don't feel like sharing their conditions I'm not sure how we learn them.

And I don't want to try and lynch an elemental at the expense of attempting to get a demon.

Of course, if Blade is completely lost on how to proceed with his power, I suppose he could ring up Dacman and take out an elemental. That would probably be preferable to taking out a human by accident.

[Blade6119]

DACMAN - WHAT ARE THE VICTORY CONDITIONS OF THE ELEMENTALS, WHO WERE THE OTHER ELEMENTALS, AND ARE YOU STILL ABLE TO KILL AT NIGHT OR DID YOU LOSE THAT POWER?

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Of course, if Blade is completely lost on how to proceed with his power, I suppose he could ring up Dacman and take out an elemental. That would probably be preferable to taking out a human by accident.

i have it down to really 3-4 targets, and the rest of tonight will decide for me who it is...3 i have discussed at length, and one person i havent accused at all becuase i dont want that person to know im on to them just yet...i intend to kill tomorrow, and dacman or WVU will not be a target

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

WVU, I'm in complete agreement with you. But if they don't feel like sharing their conditions I'm not sure how we learn them.

That's why I'm suspicious. If the victory condition is done in conjunction with either us or the demons, there would be no logical reason why they wouldn't share. The only reason they wouldn't is if we have to die in order for them to win.

UNVOTE GRAMMATICUS

[hoopsguy]

I suspect they involve protecting the warlock and druid, or keeping everyone alive long enough for them to collect enough sacrifices. But those are pure guesswork at goals that would not coincide with known victory conditions.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Werewolf games make for strange allies sometimes. But I will continue to suggest alternate targets to Cronin, no matter what he says from now until the deadline.

I'm dying to know who the warlock is - at this point I think he is the key to the game. We need to get him on one of the next two lynches. I don't think the elementals will help us out with tracking him down and I'm guessing he can potentially help them win the game faster with favors.

I've been off my st. cronin thing for a while now, so I might as well make it official. Of course, I don't know who to vote FOR!

UNVOTE ST. CRONIN

[Blade6119]

Hoops, two things...did you ever eat dinner? seems like you never left...and i left you a comment in your dynasty lol

[Passacaglia]

The requests for role reveals, followed by telling us he has an important role, but doesn't want to reveal it, seems fishy. He's tops on my list now.

VOTE BARKEEP49

[Blade6119]

Sometime tonight(prob. in like an hour or two) ill go make hamburger helper so ill be out for awhile...and since im west coast im not usually around for morning deadlines(so my votes are always night before, and in this case my lynch change PM...so if you want somebody besides cronin to die change my mind in the next few hours...i dont want you to reveal your role, but id like to hear who people think i should rather lynch(i would believe barkeep right now, but am open to anyone at this point outside of my self and prob. ardent)

[hoopsguy]

1.) Yep, scarfed a quick dinner - steak with an interesting crust cooked up by the Mrs and twice-baked potatoes. Very tasty. Enjoying a nice Shiraz while working on my dynasty at this point.
2.) Just saw it. Been following along with Troy as well and I'm hoping that you guys are able to make some positives moves in the offseason. 48-0 to Army is just UGLY, but I have little room to talk after failing to qualify for a bowl game with UCLA.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

The requests for role reveals, followed by telling us he has an important role, but doesn't want to reveal it, seems fishy. He's tops on my list now.

VOTE BARKEEP49

Not that I particularly want to see you die. You're just the most suspicious now. I'm hopeful that things will get clearer before the deadline.

[Barkeep49]

Ok I want to review Dac's comments.

[quote]The elementals cannot be understood by mere mortals, even those who been given over to demonic power.[/quotes]

This, I think, refers to their secret victory conditions. I think there is a distinct possiblity, however, that they have other rules which limit/structure their actions as that would be in keeping with this line.

The elementals do not care for the human or the demon side, but can have their hand forced if one side garners enough favor(tm).

I initally thought that hoops idea that a victory condition for them was to keep alive the druid and warlock was correct. I am guessing their victory condition does have something to do with favor. However, this line also reinforces the idea that elementals have other rules regrading how they play.

Once an elemental, always an elemental.

This is the most puzzling line to me. The only thing I can think of is perhaps one of the demonic roles is a guarenteed conversion that takes 1 night? Perhaps cronin has been converted and knows that it was Grammaticus who did the convesion which is why Cronin said that it's important for the villagers victory that we kill either him or Grammaticus. He seemed pretty firm about it being one of the two. I know it seems like I'm grasping at straws here, but the line really puzzles me and this is the only way I can make some sense of it.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

Sometime tonight(prob. in like an hour or two) ill go make hamburger helper so ill be out for awhile...and since im west coast im not usually around for morning deadlines(so my votes are always night before, and in this case my lynch change PM...so if you want somebody besides cronin to die change my mind in the next few hours...i dont want you to reveal your role, but id like to hear who people think i should rather lynch(i would believe barkeep right now, but am open to anyone at this point outside of my self and prob. ardent)

Seriously, cronin? With the backup he has?

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Seriously, cronin? With the backup he has?

Thats exactly half of why i dont like him...we have yet to kill a demon, so we have at least 3 out there, maybe more if converts or elementals(one might be a human elemental, one a demon and they are competing with each other to see who can get most favor)...but gramat has no support, cronin has tons...as odd as that sounds that makes me think gramat is good and cronin bad.

[hoopsguy]

You know I don't want Cronin hung. So, preferences?

1.) Path - no reason for trust as of yet, way under radar
2.) Gram - going out on a limb trusting Cronin on this one
3.) Take your pick on Ardent or Barkeep. Doubt both are good.
4.) Probably SnDvls, although going against Cronin here
5.) Pass
6.) Taz

That's what I've got.

[Barkeep49]

Pass: You want me to tell the role. Blade's said he doesn't want me to. I'll tell the role if you'd like, I am just scared to death of dying during the night then. But I guess better during the night than by lynch, or duking.

I am the priest. I may, once a game, reserect a player who has been killed. I attempted to use this on the first night with Schmidty, since the hammer of Thor looked like he would be a good guy, but since no one agreed to take over his role, and Schmidty remained AWOL, I was unable to do so. If I survive the night my plan is to bring back saldana who we know is a good human. My survival (and non-lynch) means we have 1 extra human tomorrow. Hence the two person swing.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

This is the most puzzling line to me. The only thing I can think of is perhaps one of the demonic roles is a guarenteed conversion that takes 1 night? Perhaps cronin has been converted and knows that it was Grammaticus who did the convesion which is why Cronin said that it's important for the villagers victory that we kill either him or Grammaticus. He seemed pretty firm about it being one of the two. I know it seems like I'm grasping at straws here, but the line really puzzles me and this is the only way I can make some sense of it.

That seems like a leap. I don't remember cronin suggesting that he himself dies. And, if he was converted, why would he tell us who the wolves are?

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

1.) Yep, scarfed a quick dinner - steak with an interesting crust cooked up by the Mrs and twice-baked potatoes. Very tasty. Enjoying a nice Shiraz while working on my dynasty at this point.

Yummy, im quite jealous...all i have to snack on before i make my own dinner is left over pizza from the party i threw last night.

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

2.) Just saw it. Been following along with Troy as well and I'm hoping that you guys are able to make some positives moves in the offseason. 48-0 to Army is just UGLY, but I have little room to talk after failing to qualify for a bowl game with UCLA.

Ya, army was just the team to do it. Any running team will tear us apart, but believe it or not its the first one we have played. All the sun belt teams apparently are vertical or run N gun.

Tough luck this year, i think you just got a tough year to be in the PAC...USC you built, Wash St seems like they are just in a good year, ASU knocked of USC so they must be good...im sure you will turn it around, its been a great read so far. The USC back, rebrev? He was good

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

Pass: You want me to tell the role. Blade's said he doesn't want me to. I'll tell the role if you'd like, I am just scared to death of dying during the night then. But I guess better during the night than by lynch, or duking.

I am the priest. I may, once a game, reserect a player who has been killed. I attempted to use this on the first night with Schmidty, since the hammer of Thor looked like he would be a good guy, but since no one agreed to take over his role, and Schmidty remained AWOL, I was unable to do so. If I survive the night my plan is to bring back saldana who we know is a good human. My survival (and non-lynch) means we have 1 extra human tomorrow. Hence the two person swing.

And now things get more complicated...if i believe this, you bring back saldana over king? Interesting either way...very

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

1.) Yep, scarfed a quick dinner - steak with an interesting crust cooked up by the Mrs and twice-baked potatoes. Very tasty. Enjoying a nice Shiraz while working on my dynasty at this point.
2.) Just saw it. Been following along with Troy as well and I'm hoping that you guys are able to make some positives moves in the offseason. 48-0 to Army is just UGLY, but I have little room to talk after failing to qualify for a bowl game with UCLA.

Well, in defense of your UCLA team, it's really hard to win consistant games in a tough Pac-10 conference if the QB won't stay healthy. You just had a few bad games, is all. And your defense could use an upgrade. :-)