Changes for the Next Dungeon?

[Abe Sargent]

Assumption - sometime later, someone wants to run The Dungeon again. What are some changes you'd want to see?


Some I know about:

Wizard would be removed and changed to Battle Mage. Given weapon selection and attack abilities of a Scout.

New class added: Sorcerer, just like current wizard, with crappy weapons and such, can't even use a staff in combat, just a dagger. Can choose spells from either Divine or Wizard charts.

Wizardry redefined for Artificer and Battle Mage:

Clerics and Sorcerers advance as now. Artificers and Battle Magi have spellbooks. You can find scrolls of various spells, inscribe them into your book, and have access to them. No memorization needed. A level two clerics knows two spells, Cure Light Wounds and Detect Evil. A level two Battle Mage can cast two spells from among the four she may have in her book, as needed. Now you can stop using Armor once you get better armor, only use Dispel Magic when you need it, and use Lightning Bolt otherwise, etc. Add spells to Wizardy list that are very specialized, because before, no one would want to take Infravision as a spell, but now, you can cast it in the rare occasion when you are ambushed in the dark by a warm blooded creature who is not magiclaly concealed.


So, that change amps up mages and artificers even more.


New Class: Archer. Warrior but specializes in bows instead of something else. Only class to use bows. Bows give them a certain number of shots before combat begins, based on level. So a level 4 Archer might get two shots off, and a Level 7 might get 3 or four shots off. Once combat begins have to switch to melee weapon, which makes you weaker. Cannot use shield.






Those are some thoughts I already have.

[Poli]

I don't see a Poli class anywhere.

[Danny]

Sounds cool, I'm happy that there might be second dungeon game at some point .

[Danny]

I might have some suggestions, but would rather wait until after this game is over.

[KWhit]

I have a lot of ideas about a game I've been wanting to run for a long time. You have changed my mind a lot about what I'd like to do in such a game, but I will definitely be running an RPG type game like this in the semi-near future.

I'm gonna hold some of my ideas close to the vest, but I would like to chat with you Abe in PM about it.

[dubb93]

I think you should change the way teams work. I have been unwilling to team up at the moment b/c of the XP issue. I think that teams should fight as one, however they should split XP. If two are teaming up and they kill a monster for 1000 XP they should split it 500 a piece. This would allow the teams the option of moving as one, acting as one, and it would give those players a better chance of staying alive. The other side of the coin would be the solo adventurers who would get 1000 XP for slaying that same monster.

I think this is a fair compromise to the current system. Comments?

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

Assumption - sometime later, someone wants to run The Dungeon again.

It's hard to imagine someone else could pull this off as you have, but I like that we're talking about a sequel down the road.

One thing I would like to see changed is that players should have some amount of hps healed between days (maybe 1/4th - 1/3rd max hps) and/or healing items should be more plentiful. Right now all classes but clerics and paladins need to use (IMO) too many resources to acquire healing items. With getting some hps back between days, it doesn't diminish clerical healing spells (those can still be used in battle for instance) but it lessens the burden on other classes and doesn't hamper them as much at the start of the game.

I'll give more of a post-mortem when the game is over, but that's one thing that came to mind immediately. I like your proposed changes to the mage classes as well.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by JAG

It's hard to imagine someone else could pull this off as you have, but I like that we're talking about a sequel down the road.

One thing I would like to see changed is that players should have some amount of hps healed between days (maybe 1/4th - 1/3rd max hps) and/or healing items should be more plentiful. Right now all classes but clerics and paladins need to use (IMO) too many resources to acquire healing items. With getting some hps back between days, it doesn't diminish clerical healing spells (those can still be used in battle for instance) but it lessens the burden on other classes and doesn't hamper them as much at the start of the game.

I'll give more of a post-mortem when the game is over, but that's one thing that came to mind immediately. I like your proposed changes to the mage classes as well.

This is true, I have probably bought and used like 12 healing potions this game.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by dubb93

I think you should change the way teams work. I have been unwilling to team up at the moment b/c of the XP issue. I think that teams should fight as one, however they should split XP. If two are teaming up and they kill a monster for 1000 XP they should split it 500 a piece. This would allow the teams the option of moving as one, acting as one, and it would give those players a better chance of staying alive. The other side of the coin would be the solo adventurers who would get 1000 XP for slaying that same monster.

I think this is a fair compromise to the current system. Comments?

very true. or have experience gained be proportional to the amount of damage the person did or something

[Danny]

next time, after the first week, every 3 days or so the player with the fewest XP gained overall (relative to their class) should die.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by Danny

next time, after the first week, every 3 days or so the player with the fewest XP gained overall (relative to their class) should die.

I guess this would beg the question:

Does the fact that Mustang and Gi have died in the current really add to it?

I would say no. Yea people are going to die, but I don't see how going out of our way to kill people off in this game just b/c they are having a string of bad luck adds to this in any way.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by dubb93

I guess this would beg the question:

Does the fact that Mustang and Gi have died in the current really add to it?

I would say no. Yea people are going to die, but I don't see how going out of our way to kill people off in this game just b/c they are having a string of bad luck adds to this in any way.

I was kind of being fictitious. I just think there has to be the thought in your mind that you could die on any given day. Just go give that extra excitement.

[Passacaglia]

I think either more or less people should die, though -- two doesn't seem like the right number, because then they're the only ones, but if you have more, it seems like more a reality of the game then a freak occurrence that screwed them.

[Hannibal Lecter]

The game should not go on for 300 days

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Hannibal Lecter

The game should not go on for 300 days

That's one of my favorite parts.

[DaddyTorgo]

I think PvP (or team v team) would be cool. Maybe then we'd actually be afraid of KWhit with Xeenthrax and there would be some potential disadvantage to him having it.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

I think PvP (or team v team) would be cool. Maybe then we'd actually be afraid of KWhit with Xeenthrax and there would be some potential disadvantage to him having it.

Be afraid.

Be very afraid.

[Hannibal Lecter]

Originally Posted by Danny

That's one of my favorite parts.

and everyone not playing......

[JAG]

Another minor random thought: I'm not a big fan of 'first come first serve' for single items at the Djinni sale, that tends to make it come down to who happens to be online at that moment in time instead of the other more casual deadlines in the game. I don't have a perfect answer, but maybe have it be a random die roll and allow the lucky winner to buy the item. People could set up priority lists with the understanding that items will be sorted out in alphabetical order. Not a perfect solution I admit...you could be interested in an item conditionally, but it might get sold to someone before it's determined whether you buy your primary item. I'll think about this some more, but I would like to see the current system changed.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Hannibal Lecter

and everyone not playing......

Obviously we need a separate The Dungeon forum.

[KWhit]

I have had a blast with this game and hope these types of games can live alongside WW. I know that I want to run a different RPG type game with fewer players and I hope that it can go on at the same time a ww game is going.

By the way, Abe, great job running this game!

[KWhit]

Some things I really like about the current Dungeon game:

The djinni sales and the ability to trade items with each other. It makes for some good strategy to decide where to spend your gold and what you consider most important.

The color of the bricks letting us know the difficulty of an area. Again, leads to some strategic decision making.

The unknowns that may or may not be important. There are evil characters in the game. How does that play out differently than if they're good?

I'll think of more, but I just wanted to put those out there.

[Abe Sargent]

One thing I removed that i might put in later is teh ability of scout to pick pockets

[Abe Sargent]

How does evil impact te tejh game: Some weapons do more damage vs evil than good. KWhit and The Jackal were together for a while and Xeenthrax didn;t mind because the jackal was evil. Kwhit and The Jackal were healed at an evil temple. All evil player were wounded by the defenses of the dungeon on one day. Etc.

It makes a change, but not a major one. I don't want evil v good to be the determinign factor for your characters, just to add flavor, if that makes sense

[Poli]

Originally Posted by JAG

Another minor random thought: I'm not a big fan of 'first come first serve' for single items at the Djinni sale, that tends to make it come down to who happens to be online at that moment in time instead of the other more casual deadlines in the game. I don't have a perfect answer, but maybe have it be a random die roll and allow the lucky winner to buy the item. People could set up priority lists with the understanding that items will be sorted out in alphabetical order. Not a perfect solution I admit...you could be interested in an item conditionally, but it might get sold to someone before it's determined whether you buy your primary item. I'll think about this some more, but I would like to see the current system changed.

Silent auction, k, thx.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Poli

Silent auction, k, thx.

I like the idea of silent auction also, with maybe the price being the minimum bid.

[PackerFanatic]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

One thing I removed that i might put in later is teh ability of scout to pick pockets

That would be sweet. DT and Thom would be broke.

Err...I mean...

[JAG]

Originally Posted by KWhit

I have had a blast with this game and hope these types of games can live alongside WW. I know that I want to run a different RPG type game with fewer players and I hope that it can go on at the same time a ww game is going.

I think something like this could be done in the Dynasty forum as it's been home to interactive games like this in the past. I would certainly love to keep this type of thing going, but I can understand that it's a HUGE time involvement for the GM. All the little twists and turns Abe has thrown, as well as planning out all the rooms, the entire game system, running all the combats, keeping track of the inventories, etc... It makes my brain hurt just thinking about it.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by JAG

I think something like this could be done in the Dynasty forum as it's been home to interactive games like this in the past. I would certainly love to keep this type of thing going, but I can understand that it's a HUGE time involvement for the GM. All the little twists and turns Abe has thrown, as well as planning out all the rooms, the entire game system, running all the combats, keeping track of the inventories, etc... It makes my brain hurt just thinking about it.

Agreed. The game I have had in mind is very different, but Abe's game has cleared up some of the questions I had about how some things would work.

I was originally thinking of using an openrpg type platform to do the game, but I think this works better - basically letting the DM run both sides of the combat. It keeps the game from bogging down into turn after turn of combat. I like that approach.

[Lathum]

maybe an end?

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by Lathum

maybe an end?

Over 89 pages, almost 40,000 words, and that's just for the document that made the game. Then add research, and the hours each day being GM for weeks.

Surely, you don't mind if my game is 4-5 weeks long, do you?

I anticipated 4-5 weeks and it looks like it may be 5-6 weeks. That's fine.

[KWhit]

Probably the most fun I've had in a game here at FOFC.

[Abe Sargent]

Most fun I've had GMing!

[Danny]

Originally Posted by KWhit

Probably the most fun I've had in a game here at FOFC.

I agree! I really enjoyed some other games, but this has been an absolutely blast from day one until now. And it's been so well run, and there has been no frustration factor at all.

[Abe Sargent]

I have an idea for prestige items in the future.

Instead of filling up sheets and such with inert items like Mystical Tuning Forks and Ideally Shaped Table Legs, what if I did this:

There are some scrolls in the game, each unique. They are magical and have a recipe on them. When you find a scroll, you have to acquire all of the items on the scroll. Once you have all of the items and the scroll in your possession, then they all disappear and the item forms.

So, off the top of my head, suppose you have this:

Scroll - Assemble Druidic Staff

Need:

3 Bundles of Herbs
Divine Staff
1 Gem of Seeing
1 Potion of Healing
1 Scroll of Dispel Magic

Then when you have all items and the scroll *poof* all gone andyou have a Druidic Staff.


I like that better than the current system.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by KWhit

Probably the most fun I've had in a game here at FOFC.

Yep.

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

I have an idea for prestige items in the future.

Instead of filling up sheets and such with inert items like Mystical Tuning Forks and Ideally Shaped Table Legs, what if I did this:

There are some scrolls in the game, each unique. They are magical and have a recipe on them. When you find a scroll, you have to acquire all of the items on the scroll. Once you have all of the items and the scroll in your possession, then they all disappear and the item forms.

So, off the top of my head, suppose you have this:

Scroll - Assemble Druidic Staff

Need:

3 Bundles of Herbs
Divine Staff
1 Gem of Seeing
1 Potion of Healing
1 Scroll of Dispel Magic

Then when you have all items and the scroll *poof* all gone andyou have a Druidic Staff.


I like that better than the current system.

Agreed that that sounds better. Or you could have a finite amount of the scrolls available (3 or so) and so sometimes players could be chasing the same item, perhaps with the added urgency that all the scrolls for that item type crumble after the item is produced.

[Abe Sargent]

Class comments.

We had a winner from each class group, which i think helps to show that they are close to balanced.

We had a ton of clerics but just one won. However,The Jackal was enroute to victory when he was sidetracked by real life for a few days, so we may have had two.

A few things I would continue to consider:

Allow Warriors to take a second specialization at level 5, so that they can switch weapons if they desire.

Give Scouts, Bards, Monks and Clerics same ability to hit in combat. You get one better every other level (3, 5, 7, 9). Battle Mages here too.

Perhaps lower the magi a bit in the XP chart, but not too much.

Add abilities to scouts. I am considering adding the ability for scouts to poison their blades.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by PackerFanatic

That would be sweet. DT and Thom would be broke.

Err...I mean...

then I would have been forced to introduce you to my nice shiny +5 staff and wand of lightning.

[PackerFanatic]

If you could find me! I am very sneaky!

[Thomkal]

Grouping definitely needs to be tinkered with. We really weren't a group because we couldn't affect a monster if there was only one and they attacked another in the group. I could have died without my group members being able to help me. Letting us all attack a monster, splitting the XP, or giving us each a monster to fight if there was just one in the room originally if you are going to keep things the way they are now.

-good vs evil PvP might be fun. If we end up in the same room as the opposite alignment, we have the option to fight each other to the death or run away when hp's get low. Don't allow trades between opposite alignments? We play this in the werewolf forum after all so more reason to do the usual Werewolf backstabs (sorry about that Jackal). We were awfully chummy with each other for most of the game trading just about anything with each other.

-wizard xp needs to be adjusted, but I may be biased there
-liked the idea of the revamped prestige items.
-something more to do than search the room every afternoon action we weren't visiting the market and every morning action perhaps? It would have been nice to be able to do something specifically related to my class instead of a search action from time to time.
-a storyline that can be affected by the players actions? This dungeon was fun no doubt, but the rooms just seemed like random ideas put together.
-every player has a room they must find or a specific monster for a special bonus.
-Archer class sounds good, I'd love to see my favorite D&D class-the psionicist

[ntndeacon]

If we are adding classes, perhaps an additionm of races should be looked at as well. maybe another class that would be able o be the in the subclasses without the xp bonus.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by ntndeacon

If we are adding classes, perhaps an additionm of races should be looked at as well. maybe another class that would be able o be the in the subclasses without the xp bonus.

Yeha, I am going to add a couple of races, the tweak which races can get which clases. For example, as it is now, there's really no reason to pick a Qwith over a Dvergr, but what if Qwith could be Archers? Now you have a reason. I'll likely add Guzaks to the list, and who knows what else.

I really want to explore poisoning for scouts. And then rename them assassins. Keep the rest of their powers, but give them poison, perhaps pick pockets, and perhaps climb walls.

I like Artificers, they are a bit out there as a class.

No psionics. It's hard not to make it a third class.

Perhaps something like Druids.

Rename monks Kensai so people may want to play them. I think they already are one of the strongest classes in the game.

Next game, I'll bring out some details, like AC, damage weapons deal, and XP charts. Now that people are used to the idea, I don;t mind bringing out some of the details.

[chesapeake]

Since there is alignment in the game, it should mean something. For example, altars in the game should affect you based on whether or not you share the affiliation. Reactions from the critters in the game could be different. Fairies can support good players, imps support evil.

I'm not sure what you do with grouping. Since the premise of the game pits players against each other, making groups more viable would really change the nature of the game.

[Passacaglia]

I like that idea, ches -- and have people choose alignment at the beginning, rather than have it be something that 'happens' to them. Also, allow players to kill each other (maybe if alignment is opposite).

[Passacaglia]

Also, either have less money available, or more things to spend it on -- by the end I was rolling in money, with much more than I could spend, and I think others felt the same way -- I'm pretty sure dubb said something like that. I know I could have spent it buying items from other people as well, but the only thing I really wanted was Poli's gladius or PB's dagger, and I'm assuming Poli wouldn't have sold it to me for anything, and PB died as soon as he got that dagger (which still irks me ).

[chesapeake]

Money had considerable value early and the black market was robust. In the late game, for strategic reasons, it was not. Regardless, dungeon crawls need phat lewt. It is a requirement of the genre.

I came into the game thinking that there would be more deaths.

I'd be interested in knowing if folks thought combat was challenging enough. I entered the 3rd level of bricks when I was still 5th level. I moved into the darkest area at 6th.

My combats were short and sweet and pretty easy. Other than the dragon battle in the center of the dungeon, I was never hit in combat after hitting level 4, I believe. I was level 8 in that combat.

Much of that is surely related to my class. But the combat still seemed too easy. Did others have similar experiences?

[JAG]

Likes: Most everything not listed under dislikes. Especially enjoyed the surprises (Orb of Insight, various vortex events even if at the time it was frustrating, button pushing that affected the entire dungeon or different areas of it) and having to figure out how things worked (e.g. not knowing what items sold at the Djinni sale did until you bought them). It was amazing that the game rules made the game seem balanced and then it played out that same way (as you predicted). The curses added a great degree of hilarity. PB the Pink will be famous forever.


Dislikes: As mentioned I didn't like the 'first come first served' aspect of the Djinni sale. I think the suggested silent auction is a good idea to handle that. I wasn't that fond of the prestige item system, feeling that while the items had a good bit of power to them, it was too difficult to put them together without knowing what pieces went together. The suggested change mentioned here sounds better to me.


Suggested ideas for the future:

(from Thomkal): -every player has a room they must find or a specific monster for a special bonus. +1

Alignment: I would be cool with having more aspects to alignment.

PvP: I would be alright with some system for this, but I think it would have to be worked out carefully. It could be too significant a gain if you get all the other player's loot, I don't think you'd want a level 7 beating up a level 4 or a group of 3 beating up a solo player, and so on...those are the first issues that came to mind.

Groups: It seemed like player groups were pretty fun, so I think they could be somewhat encouraged by allowing players to double-team monsters when they enter a room and split xp as suggested earlier in the thread. Loot could either be split or given all to the player who delivers the kill. At some point players will need to venture on their own in order to win under such a system which I think is fine.

Character traits: At the start can choose between traits (either no more than 1 per character or between zero and however many) for either a bonus or penalty to exp (good with weapons +2 to hit but -10% xp, spells are 10% more effective for -15% xp, poison does double damage to you for +10% xp, etc...)

Learn more clues about the dungeon: I liked the sprite system for getting some global hints about the dungeon. I'd like to be able to find clues like that hidden about the dungeon that individual adventurers could find and choose to share ("When searching, you find scrawled on a rock: 'Beware the sea serpent in the darkest bricks!' 'You can obtain a powerful bow from the Deck of Many Things if you are lucky!') Maybe this could even be an exception to no PM's where players can trade PM's with dungeon clues they only want to share with a smaller group.


Comments about proposed class changes:

Archer sounds like it could be interesting. The battle mage as described sounds over-powered. The sorceror is an interesting idea though I don't know how many would choose cleric spells with wizard ones available to them (assuming the same spell lists).


If I think of anything else, I'll add it. Overall, as I've said a bunch, it was a lot of fun.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by chesapeake

I'd be interested in knowing if folks thought combat was challenging enough. I entered the 3rd level of bricks when I was still 5th level. I moved into the darkest area at 6th.

My combats were short and sweet and pretty easy. Other than the dragon battle in the center of the dungeon, I was never hit in combat after hitting level 4, I believe. I was level 8 in that combat.

Much of that is surely related to my class. But the combat still seemed too easy. Did others have similar experiences?

I'm guessing it was more a function of your class (and items). PF was level 7 and he couldn't even take down two guzaks. For me, I had a lot of close combats throughout the game including towards the end in the dark bricks (from level 6 onwards). I was close to taking lethal damage against the vampire (at level 8) and that was with a scroll of protection from undead. If I didn't have a scroll of protection from magic, the beholder would've ate my lunch (at level 9). If I didn't have a potion of buoyancy to save my armor, the sea serpent might've polished me off.

[Danny]

Combat was definitely challenging as a warrior. If I didn't abuse healing potions I would have died about 10 times. Even with that I was close to death a couple times.

[Poli]

Money did become somewhat useless near the end of the game...and it was a speed drill to get the items you wanted at the sales.

Blind auction stuff at sales...or better yet, get rid of the sales.

I wouldn't mind, remembering back to the first solo d&d book I had in my hands, having to buy what I needed in a shop before heading into the dungeon. After that, you have to rely on your buddy(ies) and what you find in the dungeon.

Additionally, I think we all looked at ways to try and exploit the black market at times and it could be confusing. I'd say get rid of it. If someone's not there with you, well, there's no magic teleport to get your stuff to them. Okay, maybe we could put in magic teleports...but not in every room.