WW United -- GAME OVER

[Alan T]

I don't really like any of the choices that have been offered up for today myself. I agree with Chief about the Claphamsa vote. I don't really have a read on MartinD at all. I don't really see the same way as him about lathum or lerriuqs however. I guess out of the bunch of them, I'll likely end up voting for MartinD but I'm not really a big fan of the choices here. I'm even less of a big fan of the number of people hiding their vote elsewhere.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

When I'm picking out of a hat, basically, though, I am within my rights to just not want to deal with it.

so we are picking out of a hat, yet Clap and MartinD are poor candidates?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by JAG

It depends, but the answer is probably yes. If we lose and we have horrible ratings all over the place, I would definitely side with lynching tomorrow and just treat the soccer game as a sideshow because I would lack confidence in us being able to solve it in time. If we lose or tie but have good ratings in say 4 or more places, and the average rating seems to be around 50ish, I would be more inclined to go no lynch again.

IMO this is a poor strategy. The voting record IMO is more valuable than keeping one player around for a slight improvement.

[GoldenEagle]

I think the reason we need to lynch is because if we don't, then wolves are just going to hit us with a point deduction and we will be in the same situation tomorrow.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by JAG

How do you know this?

Because it's his opinion. (note the "IMO")

Seriously, though, I subscribe to lerriuqs' stance that getting the points will likely be hard. We don't actually have the information, of course, to settle this right now, but we have to presume a win even at full strength is probably not going to be a gimme. By the time we get positional skill nailed down, we will have lost 5-6 players, and will barely be able to field a full 11. Then the wolves will start knocking us down 2 points, too.

Is it doable? I'm sure it is. But I see it as the less likely avenue of success, which is why I advocate for the lynch, and playing this more as straight WW.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Lathum

so we are picking out of a hat, yet Clap and MartinD are poor candidates?

Picking out of a hat between you and lerriuqs. Do you want me to vote for you? I'm good either way. I see both of you as better candidates than clap or Martin.

[GoldenEagle]

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

I think the reason we need to lynch is because if we don't, then wolves are just going to hit us with a point deduction and we will be in the same situation tomorrow.

Just to add to expand on my thoughts a bit:

If we vote no lynch:
1. The wolves can hit us with the two point deduction
2. If they do, we learn nothing about squad (or do we? would the match still be played?)

So we are looking at a 12 points instead of a 10 and we are in the same situation tomorrow as we are in today.

/out of character

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Picking out of a hat between you and lerriuqs. Do you want me to vote for you? I'm good either way. I see both of you as better candidates than clap or Martin.

I really don't care if you vote for me.

In fact please do, it will be a great chance for me to show you how calm I can remain.

[Lathum]

anyone got a vote count?

[Chief Rum]

FWIW, I don't really think Lathum or lerriuqs are wolves, but right now, I don't think anyone is a wolf right now, based on what we have seen in thread. I just believe that the clap and Martin votes have been sorta railroaded through on specious reasoning. I think if clap wasn't constantly a Day One candidate or if Martin was here to defend himself, I wouldn't have a problem--after all, one Day One vote is about as good as another.

I picked Lathum and lerriuqs basically because I needed to vote for someone (as I believe the right way to go is the lynch), and I didn't like some of their approach to presenting their arguments for lynch in their debate with KWhit and JAG. I don't agree with KWhit and JAG, but I feel they argues more reasonably and fairly. As I value a rational and logical approach, I felt how Lathum and lerriuqs argue at some points was inconsistent with what we will need to win, so why not make one of them a candidate?

I certainly wouldn't advocate a run on either of them just on the basis of my vote, though. It's based on nearly as much of nothing as the clap and Martin votes. It is, after all, still an information-less Day One vote.

I might switch to GE, even. Wasn't too keen on him following me (although I'll admit I sorta encouraged it with my last line in my vote post).

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I picked Lathum and lerriuqs basically because I needed to vote for someone (as I believe the right way to go is the lynch), and I didn't like some of their approach to presenting their arguments for lynch in their debate with KWhit and JAG. I don't agree with KWhit and JAG, but I feel they argues more reasonably and fairly. As I value a rational and logical approach, I felt how Lathum and lerriuqs argue at some points was inconsistent with what we will need to win, so why not make one of them a candidate?
.

I just don't understand your logic here. You think we should lynch, lerriuqs and I are pro lynch, yet you think one of us should be lynched.

That's fine if you don't like the arguments we make or the logic we use, but it makes no sense to me to try and lynch someone on the same side of the argument as you are.

[Lathum]

unvote Clap
vote MArtinD

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

Just to add to expand on my thoughts a bit:

If we vote no lynch:
1. The wolves can hit us with the two point deduction
2. If they do, we learn nothing about squad (or do we? would the match still be played?)

So we are looking at a 12 points instead of a 10 and we are in the same situation tomorrow as we are in today.

/out of character

No, we wouldn't be in the same position, because we'd lose NOBODY and we'd have a freebie seer scan (and today's voting history).

And I believe the game would still be played.

[Telle]

Votes as of post #262:

5 - no lynch - KWhit (103), JAG (131), MartinD (133), DaddyTorgo (182), PurdueBrad (185)
6 - MartinD - Mia Ow (142), Schmidty (154), Telle (183), claphamsa (192), The Jackal (207), Lathum (262)
3 - claphamsa - LSG (156), Darth (159), lerriuqs (191)
2 - Lerriuqs - Chief Rum (242), GoldenEagle (245)

[GoldenEagle]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I might switch to GE, even. Wasn't too keen on him following me (although I'll admit I sorta encouraged it with my last line in my vote post).

Mate, you write a post detailing how we should not vote for Clap or MartinD. It is a good,well-timed argument. I read this and think, "this bloke knows what he is talking about. He may not be much of a footballer. But who is compared to me?"

So all of the sudden, I jump on the bandwagon of this lerriuqs character. I am not really sure who lerriuqs is, but the only person I really pay attention to on the team is myself.

It is like you don't want lerriuqs to get lynched. So what gives, mate? Are you trying to create some seperation from yourself and lerriuqs? Are you afraid that more votes will start piling on him (kinda of similar to way I pile up the goals, yea?)?

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I just don't understand your logic here. You think we should lynch, lerriuqs and I are pro lynch, yet you think one of us should be lynched.

That's fine if you don't like the arguments we make or the logic we use, but it makes no sense to me to try and lynch someone on the same side of the argument as you are.

You are confusing two entirely separate debates.

One is the lynch/no-lynch debate. I agree that lynching is the best way to go.

The other argument is, who is the best candidate for lynching? I came to determine that that is you and lerriuqs, as of right now, because we need rationality and logic, and I believe you both didn't display enough of either in your debate with KWhit and JAG, even if the stance you were defending is, IMO, correct.

I agree that we should lynch. That resolves debate one.

I believe you and lerriuqs are my primary candidates for lynch at this moment. That resolves debate two.

Completely unrelated debates.

[Lathum]

Fair enough.

You want me lynched then go for it. I look forward to you voting me after the deadline.

That is if we are both still alive

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

Mate, you write a post detailing how we should not vote for Clap or MartinD. It is a good,well-timed argument. I read this and think, "this bloke knows what he is talking about. He may not be much of a footballer. But who is compared to me?"

So all of the sudden, I jump on the bandwagon of this lerriuqs character. I am not really sure who lerriuqs is, but the only person I really pay attention to on the team is myself.

It is like you don't want lerriuqs to get lynched. So what gives, mate? Are you trying to create some seperation from yourself and lerriuqs? Are you afraid that more votes will start piling on him (kinda of similar to way I pile up the goals, yea?)?

Now, that's fear mongering (that last paragraph)! You have outdone yourself, GE.

Seriously, I did suggest a follow up, so I'm not really going to hold ti against you. I would be uncomfortable, though, if a run developed on lerriuqs (or Lathum), because I don't know that they are wolves either, and I would certainly be at fault if they were lynched on my say so.

Day One votes suck. It's a fact. We got no information.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Fair enough.

You want me lynched then go for it. I look forward to you voting me after the deadline.

That is if we are both still alive

No, I am just voting for you. That doesn't mean I want you lynched. It just means I want others lynched less than you or lerriuqs at this moment, pending more information becoming available.

As for that last, are you suggesting I won't be alive?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

No, I am just voting for you. That doesn't mean I want you lynched. It just means I want others lynched less than you or lerriuqs at this moment, pending more information becoming available.

As for that last, are you suggesting I won't be alive?

anything is possible, if I was a wolf you would be one of my top targets.

[lerriuqs]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

You are confusing two entirely separate debates.

One is the lynch/no-lynch debate. I agree that lynching is the best way to go.

The other argument is, who is the best candidate for lynching? I came to determine that that is you and lerriuqs, as of right now, because we need rationality and logic, and I believe you both didn't display enough of either in your debate with KWhit and JAG, even if the stance you were defending is, IMO, correct.

I agree that we should lynch. That resolves debate one.

I believe you and lerriuqs are my primary candidates for lynch at this moment. That resolves debate two.

Completely unrelated debates.

So you think their rationale and logic is more sound even though you don't even believe with the belief that is fueling their position? Ie. That winning based on points is the best way to go...

Huh?

[JAG]

Originally Posted by lerriuqs

What part of IMO has you confused?

Sorry. What I was trying to get at (clumsily) is, we don't know how the game works so we're both in the same boat of trying to figure out optimal strategy without all the proper information.

Honestly, thinking about it some more...maybe it's better strategy to lynch on D1, find out what we can from the game, and if it looks possible to put together a winning team quickly, aim for a no lynch on D2. That way we have basically the same result (we only lynch once after two days), but if it turns out the game looks too hard to win, we haven't spent a day waiting for a game result. The downside is our odds are slightly worse numerically at finding a wolf today vs. tomorrow, not to mention I wonder if we can even muster support for a no lynch seeing how today has gone.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by lerriuqs

So you think their rationale and logic is more sound even though you don't even believe with the belief that is fueling their position? Ie. That winning based on points is the best way to go...

Huh?

You're confusing the argument with the arguer.

I agree with your debate point.

But KWhit and JAG, logically, presented their arguments better, with no logical fallacies. I think they're wrong--but that doesn't mean they weren't logical and rational. Right and wrong has nothing to do with logical argumentation.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Lathum

anything is possible, if I was a wolf you would be one of my top targets.

So later on, if I am not attacked, I must be a wolf, right? Setting up that argument already? How Machiavellian.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I'll vote lerriuqs. Feel free to follow me if you want.

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Seriously, I did suggest a follow up, so I'm not really going to hold ti against you. I would be uncomfortable, though, if a run developed on lerriuqs (or Lathum), because I don't know that they are wolves either, and I would certainly be at fault if they were lynched on my say so.

Just making sure I understand here... You don't feel that Martin or Claphamsa are wolves so throwing out people you think are more likely to be wolves and give your reasoning for it. You then say for people to feel free to follow if you want.

You later then say you would be uncomfortable if a run develops and one of the people you think more likely to be a wolf gets lynched.

So you aren't a big fan of who people are voting for, and are not a big fan of people voting for who you are voting for.. yet are not a big fan of people voting no lynch.... What are you a big fan of?

[DaddyTorgo]

aaah. forgot this was a 2pm deadline. that's typically right in the middle of my lunch hour

[DaddyTorgo]

oh. 2pm central...lol

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Just making sure I understand here... You don't feel that Martin or Claphamsa are wolves so throwing out people you think are more likely to be wolves and give your reasoning for it. You then say for people to feel free to follow if you want.

You later then say you would be uncomfortable if a run develops and one of the people you think more likely to be a wolf gets lynched.

So you aren't a big fan of who people are voting for, and are not a big fan of people voting for who you are voting for.. yet are not a big fan of people voting no lynch.... What are you a big fan of?

lol...I'm not a big fan of lynching anyone. There is no one in this game currently who I feel is a wolf or has done something wolfy whatsoever. If it was for the best of the village to "no lynch", I would. But I don't think it is, so I must vote.

And even though I don't like anyone as a wolf just yet, I still have to vote, even if the reason is crappy (which it is). I just picked what is, to me, a very slightly less crappy reason than the ones put forth for clap and Martin, especially given their particular circumstances (a vote for clap on Day One might as well be a throwaway vote, because it's always defensible because of who clap is; MartinD just won't be around).

So I am voting for lerriuqs because I have to vote for someone. But that doesn't mean I really think lerriuqs is a wolf, and if he is lynched off of some run away initiated by me, I will feel more than a little bit guilty about that.

The "feel free to follow me" was a rather flippant "do whatever you want" that I think was a poor addition on my part to that post.

[GoldenEagle]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Just making sure I understand here... You don't feel that Martin or Claphamsa are wolves so throwing out people you think are more likely to be wolves and give your reasoning for it. You then say for people to feel free to follow if you want.

You later then say you would be uncomfortable if a run develops and one of the people you think more likely to be a wolf gets lynched.

So you aren't a big fan of who people are voting for, and are not a big fan of people voting for who you are voting for.. yet are not a big fan of people voting no lynch.... What are you a big fan of?

Don't forget that he also suggested lynching the team's best player, me.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

So later on, if I am not attacked, I must be a wolf, right? Setting up that argument already? How Machiavellian.

just call me the Prince

[Danny]

Trying to catch up real quick before deadline. But basically barring any late movement my choice is no lynch or MartinD to have a meaningful vote.

[Alan T]

If Telle's last vote count is accurate, it looks like I pretty much have to vote MartinD or it could easily end up being a no lynch. I'm not going to vote for some other third party to say that I didn't "no vote" but effectively no voting by having a meaningless vote out there as well. Unfortunately today appears to be about whether we should vote or not vote, which does not give us much of a track record at all.

Vote MartinD

[Lathum]

lol, I thought the deadline had passed already.

I think we need to implement a rule that all times are in EST

[Danny]

I will not be voting no lynch. I stated my argument before, but I believe a no lynch benefits the wolves. So as of now, if there is no movement, I will be voting for MartinD.

[lerriuqs]

Unvote clap
Vote MartinD

I don't want no lynch sneaking in at the end.

[Danny]

Ok so we have 7-5 MartinD vs. No lynch

[Passacaglia]

Vote count:

Mia Ow 0 --
No Lynch 5 -- Kwhit (103) JAG (131) MartinD (133) DaddyTorgo (182) PurdueBrad (185)
MartinD 8 -- Mia Ow (142) Schmidty (154) Telle (183) claphamsa (192) The Jackal (207) Lathum (262) Alan T (282) lerriuqs (285)
claphamsa 2 -- LoneStarGirl (156) Darth Vilus (159)
lerriuqs 2 -- Chief Rum (242) GoldenEagle (245)

[Chief Rum]

Are we clear on getting a lynch?

If we are, I will leave my vote where it is.

If we need my vote to defeat a no lynch, though, I will change my vote. The need for a lynch, IMO, trumps any specific reason I have for voting particular lynch candidates.

[Danny]

Wow, my vote is basically meaningless now wherever I vote. Seriously though, we would have been much better off having a vote showdown between two players instead of this. And since no lynch isn't looking great, I will vote for a secondary option for now and see if there is any movement.

[Chief Rum]

Going from Pass's vote tally, I think we're in the clear. I will remain on lerriuqs.

[lerriuqs]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Are we clear on getting a lynch?

If we are, I will leave my vote where it is.

If we need my vote to defeat a no lynch, though, I will change my vote. The need for a lynch, IMO, trumps any specific reason I have for voting particular lynch candidates.

Unless we get a bunch of last minute changes, we should be clear.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Are we clear on getting a lynch?

If we are, I will leave my vote where it is.

If we need my vote to defeat a no lynch, though, I will change my vote. The need for a lynch, IMO, trumps any specific reason I have for voting particular lynch candidates.

I agree with this, but right now we are pretty set and really if anyone comes in and swings this to a no lynch, they are basically lynching themselves for tomorrow.

[Danny]

Really no point in my vote, but

Vote MartinD

I am pretty disappointed that players are not being forced to choose between two candidates.

[GoldenEagle]

I thought the MartinD lad had a real talent. And when I say real talent, I mean he would pass me the ball every now and then.

Does anyone know his approximate wages? I need to give my agent a call.

[Danny]

The movement against having Clap as a second candidate is something I want to look more at when I have the chance. I realize he is often targeted early, but without having looked at in depth, it seems like that pretty much made this a one candidate race with no lynch in there.

[JAG]

There's a lot of people here. Obviously lynching has won, so I will switch.

VOTE LERRIUQS

I agree with CR's reasoning.

[Danny]

JAG Its a bit late, but I assume you need to actually unvote no lynch

[JAG]

I didn't realize it was that close to deadline and forgot to unvote first, nice. Not that it would've mattered in the outcome.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by JAG

There's a lot of people here. Obviously lynching has won, so I will switch.

VOTE LERRIUQS

I agree with CR's reasoning.

I will count this, but please unvote next time.

[Passacaglia]

Final vote count:

Mia Ow 0 --
No Lynch 4 -- Kwhit (103) MartinD (133) DaddyTorgo (182) PurdueBrad (185)
MartinD 9 -- Mia Ow (142) Schmidty (154) Telle (183) claphamsa (192) The Jackal (207) Lathum (262) Alan T (282) lerriuqs (285) Danny (293)
claphamsa 2 -- LoneStarGirl (156) Darth Vilus (159)
lerriuqs 3 -- Chief Rum (242) GoldenEagle (245) JAG (296)