Tour de France 2006 - Ullrich won't start!

[SirFozzie]

Holy shit.

Testing of Floyd Landis' urine by a French antidoping lab reportedly detected synthetic testosterone. Citing a person at the International Cycling Union with knowledge of the result, The New York Times reported Monday that some of the hormone in the "A" sample is from an external source.

Either someone else had Landis's sample spiked, or he did juice and tried to cover it up. The word for the A sample is TAINTED, ie, foreign stuff was added to it.

[Logan]

See, that's how I read the ESPN front page blurb too. But then I read the whole article and it made it seem that the "foreign substance" is something that the body doesn't produce naturally...ie a steroid of some sort.

But yeah, I'm confused.

[Maple Leafs]

Yellow syrup in the water battle?

[Glengoyne]

Floyd, Floyd, Floyd

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Logan

See, that's how I read the ESPN front page blurb too. But then I read the whole article and it made it seem that the "foreign substance" is something that the body doesn't produce naturally...ie a steroid of some sort.

But yeah, I'm confused.

ESPN was definately trying to confuse on its front page (they have since changed it). Basically, they are citing the NY Times report saying that Landis' sample had synthetic testosterone, meaning his claims of natural testosterone elevation was BS. Sample being 'tainted' meaning that it was positive for synthetic drugs.

External source meaning... a synthetic substance. Not natural elevation.

[kcchief19]

The wire copy reports I see all say the test showed "more than twice" the legal limit of a 4:1 ratio. ESPN indicated this morning that the ratio was 11:1. I don't see how he explains his way out of this.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

I don't see how he explains his way out of this.

There is, apparently a handbook for this sort of thing. You get caught cheating, even caught red-handed, and you slip into a fairly unintelligibel stream of denials... I didn't do anyting... maybe it was a bad lab test... might have been some other stuff i took for a legit reason... who knows... I'm innocent.

At the end of that babbling, it turns out that a pretty substantial number of people will actualy believe you. I know it sounds absurd... but honestly, that seems to be how this works. It's kinda like rubbing sticks to make fire -- you'd never believe it coudl be done, but I'll be damned, it actually is effective sometimes.

No doubt there will be people who quickly stand up for the "botched test" theory, or the "someone's out to get the American" theory, or something else equally absurd, when there's a perfectly simple and straightforward explanation for all this right in front of them.

[Ryan S]

The BBC website is reporting that the results will not be available until Saturday, which makes me wonder if the leaked reports are accurate.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/othe...ng/5233476.stm

[ISiddiqui]

IIRC, the leaked reports are on the 'A' sample.

[kcchief19]

Yes, the reports are based on the A sample. Once the testosterone test came up abnormal, it was retested for synthetic sterorids.

The B sample is being tested now and the results are supposed to be due by Saturday. If that comes up negative, it will be a stunner, especially to Landis who has already said he expects it to be positive due to his natural potency.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

especially to Landis who has already said he expects it to be positive due to his natural potency.

lol

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

There is, apparently a handbook for this sort of thing. You get caught cheating, even caught red-handed, and you slip into a fairly unintelligibel stream of denials... I didn't do anyting... maybe it was a bad lab test... might have been some other stuff i took for a legit reason... who knows... I'm innocent.

Don't forget "There's an explanation, but I can't tell you what it is out of respect for the ongoing investigation".

("Aw, what a nice guy, he respects the judicial process so much he's willing to go down in flames for it. We could all learn something from this display of integrity.")

[cartman]

Jack Daniels=Helluva drug

[cartman]

Dola, maybe he got a vitamin B-12 injection from Miguel Tejada.

[rkmsuf]

I could care less about the drug thing but I have one small request if they are going to televise this race. Please have them refrain from wearing a uniform that details their nutsack and weiner. We have the technology to prevent this.

[Fidatelo]

If we let them take more steroids they might get going so fast that they would just naturally blur on the screen, making nutsack hiding technology unnecessary.

[HomerSimpson]

I think he used Balco's massage therapist.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

ESPN was definately trying to confuse on its front page (they have since changed it). Basically, they are citing the NY Times report saying that Landis' sample had synthetic testosterone, meaning his claims of natural testosterone elevation was BS. Sample being 'tainted' meaning that it was positive for synthetic drugs.

External source meaning... a synthetic substance. Not natural elevation.

I can't believe I actually expected responsible journalism from ESPN.

[kcchief19]

I'm going to throw this out and see if sticks. Am I the only one who would GAIN respect for Landis in this situation if he simply come out admitted it? Doesn't need to be a press conference -- just a TV journalist of your choice. Just apologize and say, "My back was against the wall. My dream was coming to an end, I realized I didn't have anything left and I made a bad choice."

Public relations aside, to me it's just the right thing to do. But taking PR into consideration, I think the problem is that sports agents are about 15 years behind the curve in managing a PR crisis. They continue to use deny/deny/deny when it just doesn't work. You get the story out first and get it out on your terms.

[ISiddiqui]

No, you probably wouldn't be. I think a very few people believe that anyone of the leaders at the Tour is clean, so if he admitted it, people may respect him more.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

They continue to use deny/deny/deny when it just doesn't work.

It does work. That's the problem.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

I'm going to throw this out and see if sticks. Am I the only one who would GAIN respect for Landis in this situation if he simply come out admitted it? Doesn't need to be a press conference -- just a TV journalist of your choice. Just apologize and say, "My back was against the wall. My dream was coming to an end, I realized I didn't have anything left and I made a bad choice."

Public relations aside, to me it's just the right thing to do. But taking PR into consideration, I think the problem is that sports agents are about 15 years behind the curve in managing a PR crisis. They continue to use deny/deny/deny when it just doesn't work. You get the story out first and get it out on your terms.

No, not at this point. He has already denied/denied/denied. He has spent the last week saying he did not use anything, it was all natural blah blah blah. Now if he came out immediately after the test came back positive and said something similar to what you are saying that would be different. I don't know if I would go as far as saying he would gain my respect, but I would definitely appreciate his honesty.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

I'm going to throw this out and see if sticks. Am I the only one who would GAIN respect for Landis in this situation if he simply come out admitted it? Doesn't need to be a press conference -- just a TV journalist of your choice. Just apologize and say, "My back was against the wall. My dream was coming to an end, I realized I didn't have anything left and I made a bad choice."

Public relations aside, to me it's just the right thing to do. But taking PR into consideration, I think the problem is that sports agents are about 15 years behind the curve in managing a PR crisis. They continue to use deny/deny/deny when it just doesn't work. You get the story out first and get it out on your terms.

See, what you say may save him in the court of public opinion, but it wipes out any prayer he has of keeping the tour win or racing again for two years.

At this point, he still has some outs. Maybe the B sample will get corrupted somehow. Maybe some other leagal issue will allow him to escape with the victory in tact.

Would I have more respect for him? Right now it wouldn't be much different than the way I currently feel. He should lose the title, be suspended and he should be slapped about 200 times for being an idiot. Down the line, as the years pass, time and his own actions could sway me to support him. If ten years down the road he's still speaking to kids about tough choices, drugs and selling your soul. . . I'll have much more respect for him.

He admits it and then goes into hiding for two decades, I won't gain much respect at all from him.

[kcchief19]

We have a new defense: The Dehydration Sydrome!

Originally Posted by Landis' Lawyer

"Maybe a combination of dehydration, maximum effort," said Jose Maria Buxeda, after testing began Thursday on the cyclist's backup doping sample.

Too bad, the experts say:

Originally Posted by An Expert

"In 25 years of experience of testing testosterone ... such a huge increase in the level of testosterone cannot be accepted to come from any natural factors," said Prof. Christiane Ayotte, director of Montreal's anti-doping laboratory."If dehydration was the case, then marathon runners would be testing positive all the time. Tennis players would be testing positive all the time. Dehydration is a medical condition that requires hospitalization. It has been invoked in the past, but not one case -- to my knowledge -- has been successful in this argument."

It's Maximum Cycling, baby!

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by TroyF

See, what you say may save him in the court of public opinion, but it wipes out any prayer he has of keeping the tour win or racing again for two years.

But that's precisely why -- especially in this case -- he should persue this. Landis isn't going to be racing anytime soon, both with the cloud and the hip hanging over his head. Right now, he is labeled a cheater and will forever carry the cheater label.

But the public is very forgiving with people -- unless they are lied to. If he came clean, I have no doubt that in a matter of time he'd have people on his side saying he made a mistake and deserves a second chance for confronting his demons and telling the truth. Now, everybody wants to tar and feather him.

But this requires that the athlete admit -- both to himself and to the public -- he cheated. I think in too many of these cases the athlete convinces himself that it's OK to cheat, maybe because everybody else is too.

[Buccaneer]

Admittedly I didn't think of that excuse, even though it's obvious. Ok, we can add Dehydration. What would be next one?

[Vinatieri for Prez]

He ate a lot of beef steak the night before from a cow fed with growth hormone & testosterone.

[thealmighty]

He was sure it was KY Jelly but apparently some diabolical sex-shop owner switched it for the cream.

P.S.- his wife did not complain. How was he to know.

[kcchief19]

I keep waiting for him to say that Lance Armstrong spiked his Gatorade -- you know, kind of a catchall.

[Critch]

The French framed him.

[AlexB]

B Test confirmed positive.

[HomerSimpson]

Originally Posted by Jari Rantanen's Shorts

B Test confirmed positive.

LOL I thought baseball was bad.

Am I reading the reports correct. After testing positive for steroids in sample A last week, and another for positive test for steroids in sample B this week, the International Bike Committee(?) are now going to have to take Floyd Landis to court to try and have him removed as the 2006 Tour de France winner???

[fantastic flying froggies]

Actually no, the UCI (International Cyclist Union) has requested that the US cycling federation open a disciplinary procedure against Landis. That's the usual procedure apparently.

Oh, and Floyd has also been fired from his team Phonak.

[kcchief19]

The Floyd Landis Public Relations Spin Tour officially took off today. I'm trying to avoid waking up this morning and Mrs. kcchief19 turns on the Today show, which had Floyd and his wife on live via satellite. Five minutes later, she flips over to Good Morning America and Robin Roberts is doing the same thing. Impressive saturation.

The revisionist history going on was impressive. Floyd was blaming the ICU for leaking his positive test result, when everything I saw indicated that Phonak was the one who first revealed the test result. He also claimed that he had nothing to do with some of the explanations his camp was putting forward, specificially saying he had nothing to do with the whiskey/beer defense and dehydration/maximum effort defense. Which I guess means the "Manly" defense is pure Landis.

He also tried to explain that the carbon isotope test is a "subjective" test and is not conclusive. He also claimed that the first test that showed the 11:1 ratio showed "natural" testosterone and that it was the "subjective" carbon isotope test that showed otherwise.

I came away with the impression that either Floyd has no idea what he is talking about, that he has told so many lies that he can't keep up with them or some combination of both.

[Maple Leafs]

Nice to see he's using the Armstrong/Bonds defence of "Hey, forget what the test results/testimony actually said, you should never have heard about it in the first place!"

[QuikSand]

The most convincing element of the "no, I'm clean" spin is usually the argument about passed tests. See also Armstrong, Lance and any number of others in similar situations (those either failing a test or being accued of doping). The whole argument relies on us, the ever-gullible public, believing the idea that tests catch cheaters. So, the accused athlete goes on record counting all the tests that failed to show a problem, and uses that as the central exhibit in the "I'm clean" defense. Landis is doing exactly this now, with a specific new spin -- since he tested negative in several earlier tests and then positive -- he's asking us to draw the conclusion that he was clean right up until that one stage, leading to a preposterous suggestion.

The weak underpinning beneath all this, however, is the entire belief in testing as being that effective. If, like many of us, you believe that the drug-makers are smarter, richer, and more motivated than the test-makers... and that drug users are able to pass tests regularly... then this whole argument won't hold water at all. It will, as usual, convince many (especially those who come in already sympathetic to the athlete) that he's really okay... but it's a logical argument built entirely upon a very suspect premise.


In my mind, the single most likely situation that explains everything is this: Landis is a cheater, just like nearly everyone in his sport. The successful cheaters routinely use some sort of tricky chemical or masking agent that allows them to usually pass tests. From time to time, the dope-masking stuff fails to do its job, and they get caught as their true doping nature is revealed. That's what heppened here. Maybe he did something different this particular night, maybe it really was (in a perverse twist on the various defensxes that have been offered up) the whiskey or the dehydration that caused the dope-mask to fail this time... but for whatever reason, he was exposed by a failed test for the doper that he is. Luckily for the guy who finished in second place, his dope-masking worked properly, and he will be awarded the title.

[HomerSimpson]

How do they explain his other negative tests? He tested negative for steroids the stage before and the stage after. That would mean we are talking about a synthetic testosterone that clears the body in under 48 hours!!!


I wonder how many Profesional Athletes are paying attention to this quick turnaround? Shoot up on Sunday and test clean on Tuesday. Unlike the Olympics or Cycling most American Sports do not test their players immediately after the game.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

In my mind, the single most likely situation that explains everything is this: Landis is a cheater, just like nearly everyone in his sport. The successful cheaters routinely use some sort of tricky chemical or masking agent that allows them to usually pass tests. From time to time, the dope-masking stuff fails to do its job, and they get caught as their true doping nature is revealed. That's what heppened here. Maybe he did something different this particular night, maybe it really was (in a perverse twist on the various defensxes that have been offered up) the whiskey or the dehydration that caused the dope-mask to fail this time... but for whatever reason, he was exposed by a failed test for the doper that he is. Luckily for the guy who finished in second place, his dope-masking worked properly, and he will be awarded the title.

Do you also think that simply because Barry Bonds was using 'stuff' to hit homeruns, that every man who hits a homerun has to be drugged? It's this kind of arguments I won't buy, and thus, I don't believe that because Landis was 'cheating' everybody racing against him was cheating. Mister Landis acted like a first class a-hole ("I will gain 10 minutes on [number two]") and that to me made him a much more suspect guy than others.

[Pumpy Tudors]

So did Ullrich come off the bench or what?

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

Do you also think that simply because Barry Bonds was using 'stuff' to hit homeruns, that every man who hits a homerun has to be drugged? It's this kind of arguments I won't buy, and thus, I don't believe that because Landis was 'cheating' everybody racing against him was cheating. Mister Landis acted like a first class a-hole ("I will gain 10 minutes on [number two]") and that to me made him a much more suspect guy than others.

Not to speak for Quik, but in my case and I think mainly on this side of the pond, Landis testing positive doesn't mean that every cyclist is cheating -- but the fact that 48 cyclists were caught in a sting and four of the top five finishers in last year's race were barred from competiting this year is indicating that "everybody" is cheating. And by "everybody," I mean any cyclist who had a chance to win. The guy who came in last might have been clean. But it seems unlikely given how many people in cycling have been cheating that anyone could compete without cheating.

Except for Lance Armstrong. Completely clean, nothing to see here. So just leave him out of this.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Perhaps the Tour de France would be a more interesting sporting event if they just televised the results of the drug tests. That seems to be where the action lies and, with clever editing, I am sure you could get the whole thing down to a nice 2 hour "TV event" and spruce it up a little bit. You could have that "Weakest Link" lady host it. I doubt she's up to much.

It'd save the folks at OLN/Versus plenty of airtime to show more rodeos, fishing shows, old hockey games, and old episodes of "Survivor"

[thealmighty]

The way I read some of the testimony in the recent $5 million Lance Lawsuit, Floyd was one of the few that were clean on Postal. It pissed him off so much (among other things) that he left.

So, did he decide that to be able to compete for the top prize in his sport with a bunch of riders who were doping, he had to start also?

Just wonderin'.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

Not to speak for Quik, but in my case and I think mainly on this side of the pond, Landis testing positive doesn't mean that every cyclist is cheating -- but the fact that 48 cyclists were caught in a sting and four of the top five finishers in last year's race were barred from competiting this year is indicating that "everybody" is cheating. And by "everybody," I mean any cyclist who had a chance to win. The guy who came in last might have been clean. But it seems unlikely given how many people in cycling have been cheating that anyone could compete without cheating.

Except for Lance Armstrong. Completely clean, nothing to see here. So just leave him out of this.

I guess it's the same over here. After Barry Bonds and Sammy Sosa were caught cheating, people went like: duh, it's baseball, they're all on steroids. Same story with (american) football. And same story with cycling since, well, I guess the 1980s. And soccer players are, of course, all clean, despite all those nandrolon suspensions. It's just that I don't like those 'easy' conclusions without evidence (I'm probably too naive...) It's the same sentiment that makes people think all muslims are terrorists, etc.

Fact is that Floyd Landis has gone to my 'list' of people I'll have a hard time believing what they say ever again, while other cyclists (still?) never proven to be cheating are on my (and should be on anybody's) asterix-free 'list'.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Quik has it right. I would slightly modify his statement to "a lot of competitors" instead of "everybody" but everything else is what I believe. That was what Balco was all about. Coming up with new methods to mask doping and passing tests (different drugs, schedules, etc.). This easily explains how cheaters pass so many tests but then finally get caught.

As a final note, I just saw Landis' press conference statement for the first time. How poor was that? He starts out "I have never been involved in," then has to pause and look down at his written statement, then looks back up and says "doping process." I mean the guy can't even keep straight what he's supposed to say. If you're clean, you should have no problem coming out and saying it without a prepared statement. Something like, "I have never taken steroids, period."

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by HomerSimpson

How do they explain his other negative tests? He tested negative for steroids the stage before and the stage after. That would mean we are talking about a synthetic testosterone that clears the body in under 48 hours!!!


I wonder how many Profesional Athletes are paying attention to this quick turnaround? Shoot up on Sunday and test clean on Tuesday. Unlike the Olympics or Cycling most American Sports do not test their players immediately after the game.

It isn't really a quick turn around that caused this phenomenon. The battery of tests after a stage, includes a test that detects the ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone in a cyclist's blood. That is the initial test that Landis failed. That battery of tests doesn't test for natural versus synthetic testosterone. The second test detects synthetic hormones. The initial T/E ratio test essentially detected that Floyd had used some sort of masking agent to depress the amount of testosterone registering on the test. They followed up and discovered why he needed the masking agent.

In other words it wasn't that the tests before and after were clean, it was that the masking agents worked properly, so the tests weren't followed up on to detect synthetic testosterone. I'm thinking they will, now that these tests came in positive, but I'm not certain.

I guess it is possible that Floyd was clean up until the stage he tested positive for. In fact, I'm sort of hoping that he knew he needed to do something spectacular, and made a desperate decision. That is the only way he can come away from this with any sort of dignity remaining, well that and if he comes clean with that story.

This really does change my opinion about the whole "testing" issue. I'm coming around to QS's position, that it is somewhat folly to believe that the tests are genuinely effective.

[MIJB#19]

Oh, it's is starting to sound more and more plausible that 'everybody' is involved. Other cyclists don't talk about cheaters and non-cheaters, they talk about the caught guys being stupid and they talk vaguely about how this could happen. And they all say cycling can be done without 'stuff'. And the guy getting caught was really stupid.

But at the same time, if you go start assuming 'everybody' is involved, then you get paranoid from needning to figuring who you can trust and who you can't anymore. Politicians one by one get stuck in their own nets of lies, sports people are one by one getting caught 'cheating'. What role models are left behind? Pop idols and their 'messed up' music world? Writers, who 'all' make up stories without checking facts on what they write about? The movie business, where 'everybody' sleeps with 'everybody'?

[Vinatieri for Prez]

I look in the mirror for my role models.

[kcchief19]

Our boy Floyd was on Leno last night as part of his defensive team's public relations tour. Some of the gems:

He offered still another new theory: "Now there's also the possibility, and it's an argument that has been used by other people. At this point, I don't know if it's somehow or some way I ingested something that caused the tests to be that way."

I love this. "Perhaps" he ingested "something" that caused the positive test. What he's trying to imply is that he may have ingested "something" that caused the positive test that was a banned substance -- like he had a poppy seed muffin for breakfast and the opium caused a positive synthetic testosterone test. He can't admit to "accidentally" ingesting testosterone because then he'd still be screwed.

Landis went on to repeat some possibilities he and his defense team had floated earlier, that there was some type of natural occurrence in his body that caused the positive tests. He added, "And I'm beginning to wonder about this myself after the way the situation's been handled, is that after the (sample) leaves my hands ... after I give them the sample, I don't know where it goes."

1. Thyroid medication
2. Cortisone shot for degenerative hip condition
3. Whiskey/beer
4. Natural manliness
5. Maximum effort/dehydration
6. Ingested "something"
7. Tampering

Have I missed anything?

[bulletsponge]

he did ingest something.... Testosterone!

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

Not to speak for Quik, but in my case and I think mainly on this side of the pond, Landis testing positive doesn't mean that every cyclist is cheating -- but the fact that 48 cyclists were caught in a sting and four of the top five finishers in last year's race were barred from competiting this year is indicating that "everybody" is cheating. And by "everybody," I mean any cyclist who had a chance to win. The guy who came in last might have been clean. But it seems unlikely given how many people in cycling have been cheating that anyone could compete without cheating.

Thanks - I stepped away from this thread and forgot that I'd probably get backlash. This sums up my view just fine. I don't know much about cycling, but nearly every candid assessment I have heard or read suggests that the sports is just doped up like crazy.