It's Gone! 2004-2006 NHL Offseason and Lockout Thread

[Ragone]

hehe someone had to do it... Go Lightning.. and on another topic i saw in the other thread... Greatest championships.. i really think overall Stanley cup is #2 outta the big 4..

1. Nfl
2. Nhl
3. Mlb
4. Nba

hell.. i'd probably put ncaa mens college basketball above 2-4.. but its not a valid comparison really

[sabotai]

Next year is going to suck.

[JeeberD]

At least I won't have to see the Oilers trade away their young talent like they do every year...

[Maple Leafs]

Damn lockout... guess I better go see how the wife's been doing the last year or so.

Oh hey, what do you know, she had twins!

[sachmo71]

Originally Posted by JeeberD

At least I won't have to see the Oilers trade away their young talent like they do every year...

The lockout probably won't start until September...there could still be trades.

[Ksyrup]

Should be interesting, if nothing else. I guess the one positive is that my DirecTV bill will be less than usual come September.

[Cards4ever]

If there is no NHL hockey I hope that people get out and support their local College, HS and youth programs, there is a ton of good hockey out there.

[Ksyrup]

Chief Osceola and Renegade wouldn't fair so well on the ice, I'm afraid...


http://fsuicehockey.topcities.com/indexold.htm

[Fidatelo]

While watching Calgary struggle to even get a shot on goal last night I had a thought: is the goalie padding really keeping the goals down, or is player padding just as much at fault? It is almost impossible to get a shot in from the point nowadays, because the defense just collapses in front of the goal and blocks everything. Is this because these guys are just more insane than players 15 years ago, or is it because they are wearing flak jackets and other assorted body armor?

[Cards4ever]

Well, you also have some minor league hockey down there too, no? Everblades?

[Ksyrup]

Tallahassee used to have an ECHL team that was an affiliate of the Panthers. Saw the Panthers play an exhibition game or two in Tally, actually. They left a few years ago, and we almost got a WHA2 franchise last year, but the county played hardball over civic center issues or some nonsense like that, and the owner had no choice but to abandon the idea.

Jacksonville's WHA team is the closest, I think. And then there is the Pensacola team in the ECHL. Other than that, unfortunately we don't have anything close.

[Ksyrup]

The Everblades (cute name, not quite as punny as the Louisiana Ice Gators) play down near Naples/Ft. Myers. That's like 7 hours from here.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I miss the New Orleans Brass.

[Tekneek]

I can't put the Super Bowl over the Stanley Cup Finals. The Super Bowl has been underwhelming for quite a while, to me. The hype is too much. The amount of non-football related events sanctioned by the NFL and happening before, during, and after the Super Bowl make it a joke. The halftime show should be all about the game being the last game of the season and looking back. Not about sending out overhyped "pop stars" who probably don't know one thing about the game.

[Ksyrup]

I just miss the option of seeing something other than college sports. At one point, we had minor league hockey, a minor league indoor soccer team, and there was talk of trying to get an AFL2 team and of moving the Orlando Rays to Tallahassee before Disney bought them off by constructing the Braves' spring training facility. Especially now that I have kids, having even low-level minor league sports would be a plus. Now, we have nothing and I never hear anything about bringing professional sports back.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

I can't put the Super Bowl over the Stanley Cup Finals. The Super Bowl has been underwhelming for quite a while, to me. The hype is too much. The amount of non-football related events sanctioned by the NFL and happening before, during, and after the Super Bowl make it a joke. The halftime show should be all about the game being the last game of the season and looking back. Not about sending out overhyped "pop stars" who probably don't know one thing about the game.

As a football fan, I would like it if the NFL focused just on football with the Superbowl. However, the NFL is not just marketing the SB to football fans. It makes it an event that trys to appeal to everyone in America so that everyone in America will tune in to watch.

I think that the NFL Draft is the last haven for football obsessed fans who don't want their enjoyment diluted by other entertainment.

And just to make sure that I actually put a hockey comment into this thread: I think that all sports should have a championship trophy like the Stanley Cup. Very cool tradition.

[bbor]

Bite your tongue!

There is still hope if someone comes to there senses...don't kill the goose that lays the golden eggs.

[Karim]

I think we should probably kill the other thread.... just a thought.

Anyway, here is an excellent summary of the top 30 for the draft. The amount of work that went into this is amazing...
http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=80927

From what I've read, Ovechkin may be drafted #1 but Malkin is just as good, if not better. If that holds up, Chicago is the team that got screwed in the draft lottery.

Top European Forward: LW Alexander Ovechkin, Moscow Dynamo
Top European Defenseman: D Johann Fransson, Lulea
Top European Goaltender: G Marek Schwarz, Sparta

Top American Forward: C Robbie Schremp, London
Top American Defenseman: D A.J. Thelen, Michigan State
Top American Goaltender: G Al Montoya, Michigan

Top Canadian Forward: LW Andrew Ladd, Calgary
Top Canadian Defenseman: D Cam Barker, Medicine Hat
Top Canadian Goaltender: G David Shanz, Mississauga

[bbor]

I hear rumours Schremp is a head case.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by bbor

I hear rumours Schremp is a head case.

Wiseguy, eh? Wait, that was Shemp. Or was it Moe? Man, they don't show the Stooges on AMC or any other station these days

SI

[Coder]

Read this on TSN.ca:

RDS.ca, citing a source, claimed that the NHLPA offered to reduce salaries by 10%, set a luxury tax at $45-million and a rookie salary cap at $850,000 including all bonuses. According to the reported proposal, free agency would begin at 28 or 29 years of age, rather than the current 31.

--- It's being denied by Bob Goodenow though, the NHLPA big guy.

[sterlingice]

How can the NHLPA "reduce salaries", as in current salaries?

SI

[Coder]

I guess by agreeing to do that they would simply cut base salaries leaguewide by 10%.. i.e. agree to current contracts being reduced.. so if Forsberg gets 10 mil now, he'd go down to 9 mil.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Coder

Read this on TSN.ca:

RDS.ca, citing a source, claimed that the NHLPA offered to reduce salaries by 10%, set a luxury tax at $45-million and a rookie salary cap at $850,000 including all bonuses. According to the reported proposal, free agency would begin at 28 or 29 years of age, rather than the current 31.

--- It's being denied by Bob Goodenow though, the NHLPA big guy.

That's interesting. Well, they need to start somewhere. I think a "soft cap" with a luxury tax is the way to go. Teams that want to pay it, can, but they will be subsidizing the other teams in the process.

[Karim]

Any luxury tax will need to be accompanied by a salary floor. There will be owners tempted to just pocket the cash instead of trying to develop their roster.

~~~~~

On the Flames front, it appears Conroy is not going to be a Flame after July 1st. Conroy was negotiating through the media the other day and mentioned in January, Sutter offered him a contract that entailed a pay cut to his current $2.2 million salary. This was at a time when he only had two goals. Conroy was comparing himself to Fedorov and his $10 million/year salary, saying he's posted similar numbers over the past couple years.

Conroy is a great guy and a good 2-way player but comparing himself to Fedorov is a little outrageous.

Sutter commented that he expects a turnover of 7 or 8 players. That's quite a lot for a team that just got to the finals. Under the current CBA, a large market team wouldn't have to haggle with Conroy, or consider all the budget implications, they'd just retain his services.

Next time Damien Cox or some other hockey "expert" says the current CBA works for small market teams, I think I'm going to puke. Yes, a small market team can get to the finals with smart management and luck but it can't retain it's players after getting there -- that is the problem. Yes, RFAs are retained until age 31 but RFAs simply get raises through arbitration or holdout forcing a trade. The Iginla rumours are already flying as well because he will be needing a raise to elite level status after his playoff performance. (Apparently $7 million isn't elite level status.)

I guess I have to hope Bettman can negotiate a CBA that will work for the small-market teams. The future of hockey in Calgary in the hands of Gary Bettman.... now there's a scary thought.

[Coder]

Could someone explain how a luxury tax would actually distribute the taxed money to the low payroll teams? Is it split evenly or percentage based on how small payrolls they have?

[klayman]

Originally Posted by Karim

I guess I have to hope Bettman can negotiate a CBA that will work for the small-market teams. The future of hockey in Calgary in the hands of Gary Bettman.... now there's a scary thought.

That future was decided by Bettman 10 years ago.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Well, it comes as no surprise, but the Wings made it official today. They will not re-sign Brett Hull. He had three good years with team, but he's run his course. He started sulking and ticking people off, as is his want, and the Wings, rightly so, feel they need to get a bit younger and faster. The Wings also decided to let Stumpy Thomas walk as well. They will likely work a deal out with Selke Award Winner Kris Draper. Schneider is also likely to be brought back. The bigger question is Shanahan. The Wings would like him back, but at a reduced salary. I think he made US $6.5 million last year.

[Maple Leafs]

Does anyone else find that their opinion on the whole League vs. Players battle sways in the wind based on which side has done their talking last?

When Bettman gets his moment in the spotlight, with his weasely tone and refusal to give a straight answer to a question, I find myself siding with the players. Then yesterday Goodenow gets his chance and decides to bully his way through the session with condescending non-answers. And now I'm back onside with the owners.

[Cards4ever]

Decent list, I've seen some of these guys play and know of some of them. Stafford is a pretty good player, plays with alot of determination, the comment about work ethic is on the mark. If he stays at UND we'll find out if his production stays the same without Parise feeding him.

AJ Thelen, look at his numbers! He was a 17yo College freshman this year and he really played well. Always nice to see a Minnesota kid do well even if it isn't at the U of M.

I have seen Zajac play, but with the weaknesses listed, when he goes to UND he will work through those, or he will not play. Blais demands physical intense play and if you don't, you sit.

Blake Wheeler, this is a future U of M player that has been heavily scouted this past season. Every college in the country wanted this guy. This guy is the real deal and I would not be surprised to see him go higher than listed. With his size and skating ability the ceiling is high for him. Sure he dominated HS play, but he also played in our fall HS Elite league and did great, he's still got another year of HS play then he will be at the U of M, a NHL team that wants to wait a couple of years for him would do well to draft him.

[JeeberD]

Originally Posted by bbor

I hear rumours Schremp is a head case.

So Shorty is a hockey player?

[bbor]

Conroy comparing himself with Feds???

Let's face it...Conroy is a nice player,but nothing more than a 3mil a year player.I can't see anyone else giving him more than that.

[primelord]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Well, it comes as no surprise, but the Wings made it official today. They will not re-sign Brett Hull. He had three good years with team, but he's run his course. He started sulking and ticking people off, as is his want, and the Wings, rightly so, feel they need to get a bit younger and faster. The Wings also decided to let Stumpy Thomas walk as well. They will likely work a deal out with Selke Award Winner Kris Draper. Schneider is also likely to be brought back. The bigger question is Shanahan. The Wings would like him back, but at a reduced salary. I think he made US $6.5 million last year.

We have blue note jerseys that will fit both of them. You can always come home boys.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by bbor

Conroy comparing himself with Feds???

Let's face it...Conroy is a nice player,but nothing more than a 3mil a year player.I can't see anyone else giving him more than that.

Well, I can't blame a lad for trying. In a strat-o-matic season I once tried to convince someone Curtis Brown was as good as Fedorov. They had similar stats and everything. It didn't fly...

[klayman]

With his gift for gab, Conroy should be comparing himself to Ken Dryden.

[Ragone]

I like how one side says there has to be a salary cap.. and then nhlpa basically caves in by saying "A Salary cap is not IN OUR PLANS" which means it will be...

If your gonna take a hardline stance.. get it right.. jeez

[Karim]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Does anyone else find that their opinion on the whole League vs. Players battle sways in the wind based on which side has done their talking last?

Not me. I'm 100% supportive of the owners in this battle.

[Karim]

Originally Posted by Coder

Could someone explain how a luxury tax would actually distribute the taxed money to the low payroll teams? Is it split evenly or percentage based on how small payrolls they have?

I think it could work either way if they wanted it but the more common approach I've heard is to evenly split the proceeds.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Karim

Not me. I'm 100% supportive of the owners in this battle.

Ditto. As part of the deal, could we trade in Bettman for a new commish?

SI

[Joe Canadian]

Originally Posted by Karim

Not me. I'm 100% supportive of the owners in this battle.

If I had to sum I'm my thoughts I'd probably say the same. However, Bettman is a moron... he has no idea how to handle himself with the media, and just hurts the cause the league is fighting for. I wouldn't go as far as saying my opinion sways to the players side when Bettman talks, but it gets pretty close sometimes.

Does anyone else think that the owners should have their own "agent" or "union", and have the league commish be somewhat unbiased in all this? I know they are fighting for similar things... but to me this really smacks of a conflict of interest.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Joe Canadian

If I had to sum I'm my thoughts I'd probably say the same. However, Bettman is a moron... he has no idea how to handle himself with the media, and just hurts the cause the league is fighting for. I wouldn't go as far as saying my opinion sways to the players side when Bettman talks, but it gets pretty close sometimes.

Does anyone else think that the owners should have their own "agent" or "union", and have the league commish be somewhat unbiased in all this? I know they are fighting for similar things... but to me this really smacks of a conflict of interest.

It sounds so simple, but I had never thought of that before. Baseball needs this, too.

SI

[Karim]

The major problem is simply the lack of trust. All the owners could open all the books with the most respected accountants declaring teams are losing money and the union would be convinced there is hidden money. When Levitt did his report, the union countered that revenue was defined incorrectly because Levitt used the NFL & NBA definition of revenue - two leagues with salary caps.

I'm glad EHM:FE is going to be released soon because I think that's the only NHL I'll see for a while...

[Honolulu_Blue]

Karim, I think you're right.

Here's the latest from ESPN. It doesn't look promising...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=1819930


TORONTO -- With the Stanley Cup finals now securely in the rear-view mirror, the question still remains: Will NHL games be played next season?


NHL Players' Association head Bob Goodenow says the answer very easily could be no.


Goodenow, in Toronto for the NHLPA meetings, said the players remain firmly against a salary cap.


Management and the union have been at odds for the past 18 months over the issue of a cap. NHL commissioner Gary Bettman and his negotiating team want a hard cap, while the union wants no part of it. Neither side is backing down as of yet.


Is a high-stakes game of "chicken" on the horizon?


"A salary cap is not going to be part of the plan going forward," Goodenow told Toronto newspapers for Friday editions. "That means there won't be a start of the season and there may not be a season [at all] next year. We are not going to do a cap and we are not going to do a percentage of revenues. The owners set the scale of salaries for the players and that is the marketplace. It has always been that way for the past 75 years or so and that is the way we are going to go forward with it."


There are no meetings planned between the NHL and players.


"I'm optimistic we'll be able to get something done ... I'm an optimistic person," union president Trevor Linden told reporters. "I can't speak for the owners, but we're going to work hard as a union to try to avoid a lockout. We're going to try to get something done."


Avalanche star Joe Sakic doesn't expect to have to attend an Avs training camp at the end of the World Cup of Hockey in September.


"To me it just looks like Bettman doesn't want to start unless he gets everything he wants," Sakic told reporters. "So I don't expect hockey. We all hope [a new collective bargaining agreement] gets done, but to be realistic, I don't see it happening right now."


If the season does not start on time, players certainly have other options. They can play in Europe, or they can play in the newly formed World Hockey Association. The WHA announced Wednesday that its eight franchises will begin play Oct. 29.


The Lightning's Martin St. Louis, who was awarded the Hart Trophy as the league's MVP on Thursday night, said it would be silly for him not to at least consider playing in the WHA.


"Sitting at home or making $5 million, it would be very tempting," St. Louis told The Globe and Mail of Toronto. "Obviously, I have to know where we were at as far as the NHL situation. But to be honest, I really haven't thought about that."


WHA teams will have a $15 million salary cap, but a player such as St. Louis could make as much as $5 million as a team's top player.


Initially, the WHA said that if a player signs a contract, he would have to play the entire season with his WHA club. But on Wednesday, a WHA official said the league will likely change the bylaw to stipulate two players per team would have the option of returning to the NHL if labor problems are resolved during the season.

The new WHA will have franchises in Quebec City, Hamilton, Toronto, Halifax, Detroit, Dallas, Orlando, and Jacksonville, Fla.

[bbor]

I've heard the NHL is gonna lock out all AHL players that have NHL contracts.The theory is these are the guys that will put pressure on the NHLPA to settle faster.

[Ragone]

can the nhl really make ahl squads not train/play players with nhl contracts and not allow the minor league squad to pay the wages?

If they can.. thats akin to say General Motors saying.. alright.. you can strike.. but we are shutting down the parts plants and laying off 3k people because of it (which does usually happen)

[Ryan S]

Originally Posted by Joe Canadian

Does anyone else think that the owners should have their own "agent" or "union", and have the league commish be somewhat unbiased in all this? I know they are fighting for similar things... but to me this really smacks of a conflict of interest.

I think the Commish is appointed by the owners, and is looking out for their interests. The Commish has never been neutral because that is not his job.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Karim

Not me. I'm 100% supportive of the owners in this battle.

OK. So just for something to do, let me play devil's advocate. Assuming that your support for the owners extends to a league-wide salary cap:

- Why should the NHL, a league driven almost exclusively by gameday and local revenues (as opposed to national TV deals like the NFL), have artificially equal salary structures?

- Why should Toronto or Detroit, who sell out every night, have to be limited to the same payroll as a team that can't even get fans out to watch the games?

- And if they are limited to, say, a $30M cap, where does all those extra millions in revenue go? To the other teams that can barely stay afloat? Straight into the owner's pocket? Don't say "cheaper ticket prices" because we know that won't happen.

- Are you prepared for the inevitable byproduct of a cap: huge player turnover on a regular basis? Are you prepared to see teams cut their best players and have little to no year-to-year identy? I live in Ottawa, where the core of the team has stayed together for over five years and the fans love the guys. No way that happens in a cap world.

Don't get me wrong, I think the owners have a stronger case than the players. It's just that the more you look at it, the NFL-model really doesn't apply here. Apples and oranges.

[bbor]

Originally Posted by Ragone

can the nhl really make ahl squads not train/play players with nhl contracts and not allow the minor league squad to pay the wages?

If they can.. thats akin to say General Motors saying.. alright.. you can strike.. but we are shutting down the parts plants and laying off 3k people because of it (which does usually happen)

The AHL teams are generally paid for keeping NHL contracted players on their squad...therefore the nhl teams pay those salaries....or at least most of the salaries.

[sterlingice]

I'm not as well versed in the economics of hockey as I am in baseball, but I'll use the same template because it's a similar argument. Just substitute, say, "Calgary" and "Edmonton" for "Milwaukee" and "Kansas City".

It's not a fair and level playing field and as long as that's the case, you won't have people come out in those cities that don't draw well because they're trapped in a downward spiral. They can't draw fans because they have a crappy team, then the next year they can't improve their team because they don't draw well, etc. If this was a competition of who could make the most money and field the best team then let's just give Detroit and Toronto the titles every year and forego this silly "actually playing the games" thing (I'd say New York but we all know they're run by people almost as dumb as those running my poor Hawks so they'll never win).

The counter argument at that point is "why not just spend more money on your team then they will win". Because spending money is no guarantee and there is diminishing returns so you are just asking your owner to continually lose money. This isn't baseball- we know a lot of these teams for sure are losing lots of money. And it's unreasonable to expect owners to keep losing money out of their own pockets. You don't make enough money to offset your losses if you spend extra money by fielding a winning team no matter the market.

This is the point where the Yankee-- err Red Wings fan should say "well, fine we don't need them". But hockey fans seem a lot more intelligent than Yankees fans and I've never heard the "Well, we don't need the Royals/Brewers/Pirates/etc" argument so I don't need to trot out the "Enjoy your failing six-team league with no credibility, asshole".

So, in the end, it's about economics for the good of the sport. Do you want teams that can compete on a level playing field, thus keeping interest up around the league or do you just want to starve those cities that aren't major metro areas because you're selfish and enjoy always beating up on the lesser teams in an unfair fight (we call those bullies where I come from).

SI

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

So, in the end, it's about economics for the good of the sport. Do you want teams that can compete on a level playing field, thus keeping interest up around the league or do you just want to starve those cities that aren't major metro areas because you're selfish and enjoy always beating up on the lesser teams in an unfair fight (we call those bullies where I come from).

Which I guess if a fair point, except that in the NHL there are a lot of teams with no history of any sort of success. The Royals/Brewers/Pirates/etc have at least had their good runs, and you can look at them and say "Well, under the right circumstances they could do it again". That's not the case with all the NHL teams. Calgary and Edmonton, sure, but what about some of the recent expansions? At what point do you cut bait on them? Because while nobody wants to go back to a six-team league, how many teams do you force those few successful big markets to support before you admit failure and reduce the headcount?

As a Leaf fan paying $200 for a pair of tickets, I'll gladly see that some of that money go to Edmonton or Minnesota or Calgary because I know that the markets will support them with a little bit of help. I'm hesitant to do the same for the Altantas and Nashvilles of the world, and I'm very hesitant to see all that money go right into the bottom line of the teacher's pension fund while they shrug and say "sorry, guess we're not allowed to spend it".