Werewolf CXXXII: THE CUBE (Game Over: Construction Workers win!) - Page 6

CrimsonFox · 05-10-2011, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhlloy

lol... cool. I was wondering how you were going to make this game not last a couple of months with 20 players and no regular NK

Seriously, I like this just because we can really engage in some analysis of people without worrying about them getting defensive and drawing heat on yourself.

until tomorrow when they can read what we said.

Jackal can we read what their thread if they ever come back here?

hoopsguy · 05-10-2011, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrith

To hoops - Why DV? I know there's no good answer to this question, but I still have to ask.

For reasons that had nothing to do with this game - it was how Crimson died last game, as the "villager who was kinda screwed by circumstances". Where DV was on the block Day 1, survived it, and had trust the rest of the way despite barely being in the thread. I just figured that Crimson deserved a longer leash out of those two based on how the previous game had played out.

It was Day 1 - I don't think there was a real case for/against either of them, as I noted to Telle just prior to the deadline. And the big-time lack of movement made me think there was no particularly good choice to be had among those two candidates today.

CrimsonFox · 05-10-2011, 10:21 PM

Thank you hoops. I am totally grateful, even if you are a wolf, thank you.

Tyrith · 05-10-2011, 10:22 PM

Well, if we were one big group, my decision for today would come down to weighing how much losing a villager hoops would hurt versus how much getting rid of a wolf hoops would hurt + not wanting him to hunt me down until the end of his days (which would matter more if I was a wolf, obviously.) But that isn't going to be the choice for me today.

Honestly, I'm curious how the other thread will come down on the issue, especially since he's usually a bulldog when under pressure and won't be able to defend himself today. I think we have more of the talkers in this thread, though, so who knows.

Tyrith · 05-10-2011, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

For reasons that had nothing to do with this game - it was how Crimson died last game, as the "villager who was kinda screwed by circumstances". Where DV was on the block Day 1, survived it, and had trust the rest of the way despite barely being in the thread. I just figured that Crimson deserved a longer leash out of those two based on how the previous game had played out.

It was Day 1 - I don't think there was a real case for/against either of them, as I noted to Telle just prior to the deadline. And the big-time lack of movement made me think there was no particularly good choice to be had among those two candidates today.

I completely buy this, and I know you wouldn't screw around with me on this kind of thing. Although it would make nice cover fire if you were a wolf, but that's the nature of the beast.

CrimsonFox · 05-10-2011, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Jackal

The following players are allowed within this thread during day 2:

bhlloy
PackerFanatic
CrimsonFox
Tyrith
Narcizo
Danny
hoopsguy
Zinto
J23

Let's see.

Danny did not vote day 1 and there's been no sign of him.
Packer made only one appearance. Narcizo won't be on until late. Zinto has been here but hasn't said anything (granted I never think this means anything either way), and J23 has also not been on much today.

We certainly have an utr crew here. And that was hilarious that ntn cast an utr vote.

CrimsonFox · 05-10-2011, 10:26 PM

LOL I just said the opposite of you Tyrith

Tyrith · 05-10-2011, 10:30 PM

Well, to be fair, I'm also remembering back to a different era in WW, when hoops was less busy with work during the day, and I remember Danny as a talker. Narcizo is obviously a talker. But I don't really know enough about a lot of you guys to say for sure - most of the regular players I played most of my WW games with don't play anymore.

Zinto · 05-10-2011, 10:30 PM

Well a very interesting mechanic and one that threw me through a loop. I am wondering if the two wolf groups got split up into the two rooms or if it had something to do with which room we voted for.

hoopsguy · 05-10-2011, 10:31 PM

Well, my initial thoughts - in a game where we won't have any seer, I want guys that are talkers/analyzers to stick around longer.

Abe, Autumn, and mckerney are the guys I would prefer not to vote off with this in mind. I have mckerney in the list because I think he seemed interested in participating in analysis more today than I've seen him in past games.

Telle
Abe Sargent
Autumn
dwardzala
mauboy1
mckerney
MrBug708
ntndeacon
Schmidty

Danny · 05-10-2011, 10:36 PM

Sorry guys, I did not get a vote in thread or a PMed room vote to Jackal. I thought I was going to be able to be back and online much sooner.

hoopsguy · 05-10-2011, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Jackal

There are three door options.

The first is yellow, has the letter Z and a number sequence: 1 5 4 2 4 4 1 4 6 1

The second is brown, has the letter F and a number sequence: 5 7 5 5 2 2 9 7 8 7

The third is maroon, has the letter T and a number sequence: 6 1 8 6 6 3 8 5 4 9

Looking at these number sequences, it felt like I was playing a game of liars poker. I just pulled out a single and there are a total of ten characters on the bill. So I guess that doesn't line up since the bills have two characters surrounding 8 numbers. Here we have one character and ten numbers.

If anyone can come up with any reason to further explore this idea, go for it. I think it is a dead end, but figured I may as well post it in case someone comes up with something based on some random free-flow thought off of this idea.

CrimsonFox · 05-10-2011, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrith

Well, to be fair, I'm also remembering back to a different era in WW, when hoops was less busy with work during the day, and I remember Danny as a talker. Narcizo is obviously a talker. But I don't really know enough about a lot of you guys to say for sure - most of the regular players I played most of my WW games with don't play anymore.

Re: Danny. Not that much anymore. He usually gets nightkilled night one and so ...well...dead men tell no tales. And when he isn't I think he's cautious about talking (although not to put words into someone else's mouth for why)

And exactly, Tyrith. Whole different bunch with different motivations, reasonings, playing styles. As far as "work excuses" go, I always ignore that. I've seen people that work be wolves. I've seen people that don't work be villagers. I've seen people use a work excuse for little posting when they had lots of PMs. I no longer buy "work" as an excuse for anything, even when it's true since wolves frequently use that.

Danny · 05-10-2011, 10:39 PM

Based on what I see so far, I think my best chance is eeny meeny miney mo

CrimsonFox · 05-10-2011, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinto

Well a very interesting mechanic and one that threw me through a loop. I am wondering if the two wolf groups got split up into the two rooms or if it had something to do with which room we voted for.

yay ZInto's here! hey there. We survived day 1. HOw do you feel about that?

Tyrith · 05-10-2011, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Well, my initial thoughts - in a game where we won't have any seer, I want guys that are talkers/analyzers to stick around longer.

Abe, Autumn, and mckerney are the guys I would prefer not to vote off with this in mind. I have mckerney in the list because I think he seemed interested in participating in analysis more today than I've seen him in past games.

I would also agree with this - shock of shocks, considering back in the day I day 1 voted for ntn for about seven games in a row.

Tyrith · 05-10-2011, 10:44 PM

I'm willing to be convinced off this vote, but it seems like the vote I'm going to make for the reasons discussed, so I might as well man-up and put it in bold instead of beating around the bush. I realize there's a good chance this will get me lit up tomorrow, but that's life in a giant death box.

VOTE DWARDZALA

Zinto · 05-10-2011, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

yay ZInto's here! hey there. We survived day 1. HOw do you feel about that?

Have to be happy about getting through day one which seems to be the toughest lately for me to scrape through but it would not surprise me for one of us to get lynched today by the other group. Looks like I need to review my strategy of being quiet

hoopsguy · 05-10-2011, 10:45 PM

We're going to either have to get lucky with good villager votes (see Day 1 last game) or some random game mechanics (inferno in wolf) to get the ball rolling on this one, I think. Going to potentially be a really challenging game.

CrimsonFox · 05-10-2011, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

I have mckerney in the list because I think he seemed interested in participating in analysis more today than I've seen him in past games.

Pardon me, but if he's been played differently today than he normally does, wouldn't that make him more of a suspect?

Tyrith · 05-10-2011, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinto

Have to be happy about getting through day one which seems to be the toughest lately for me to scrape through but it would not surprise me for one of us to get lynched today by the other group. Looks like I need to review my strategy of being quiet

In my experience, being quiet works for about 2-3 games, and then it will get you severely punished in early lynch votes for a long time. I know it's a major factor in how I make day 1/day 2 vote decisions, personally - I'd rather keep someone more talkative around if for no other reason than it makes the game more interesting.

Zinto · 05-10-2011, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrith

I'm willing to be convinced off this vote, but it seems like the vote I'm going to make for the reasons discussed, so I might as well man-up and put it in bold instead of beating around the bush. I realize there's a good chance this will get me lit up tomorrow, but that's life in a giant death box.

VOTE DWARDZALA

I am not against a vote for Dward at all seeing as I would say lynching him, Mau, or NTN would make sense if we are just trying to pick off more quiet people.

CrimsonFox · 05-10-2011, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinto

Have to be happy about getting through day one which seems to be the toughest lately for me to scrape through but it would not surprise me for one of us to get lynched today by the other group. Looks like I need to review my strategy of being quiet

Well you always seem to get beat up so I'm not going to vote for you if we make it to day 3. Don't have a read on you as any different than usual anyway.

Zinto · 05-10-2011, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

Well you always seem to get beat up so I'm not going to vote for you if we make it to day 3. Don't have a read on you as any different than usual anyway.

Haha I don't mind getting some heat day one for how I play since it is as good a reason to vote for someone as any other reason. Luckily Bhlloy is in our group or he would lead the charge against me in the other thread

hoopsguy · 05-10-2011, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

Pardon me, but if he's been played differently today than he normally does, wouldn't that make him more of a suspect?

Guess that is the rub. But my Day 2 preference would be to give someone exhibiting the "right" characteristics a little leash to work with, rather than chasing gut on different style of play.

I can very much see why someone would go the other way on that read. But my personal thought is that there are other names on that list I would target first.

The Jackal · 05-10-2011, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

until tomorrow when they can read what we said.

Jackal can we read what their thread if they ever come back here?

Yes you can read that thread if the two groups recombine.

CrimsonFox · 05-10-2011, 10:57 PM

My favorite alltime "hoops quote" is "And day SIX is the time to start sorting out the QUIET GUYS???" so I'm not surprised by this direction.

hoopsguy · 05-10-2011, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinto

Haha I don't mind getting some heat day one for how I play since it is as good a reason to vote for someone as any other reason. Luckily Bhlloy is in our group or he would lead the charge against me in the other thread

"Heat" isn't a bad thing - getting lynched is. Heat leads to getting scanned by the seer (just not this game), being left alone by the wolves during the evening, and all other kinds of good things for a villager. Being cleared as a villager leads to getting snuffed ASAP by the wolves.

Or at least that is how I've always tried to look at it when I find myself getting votes that I don't think are warranted. Especially early in the game ... look at how much latitude Day 1 heat bought DV for the remainder of the last game.

Tyrith · 05-10-2011, 10:59 PM

Generally I would figure that most wolves would get more quiet instead of less, especially in a message board game (taking out some of the can't-shut-up nervous factor), but that could also be me pushing how I've historically acted as some sort of general principle when it shouldn't be.

hoopsguy · 05-10-2011, 10:59 PM

Anyway, I need to get some sleep. I'll start moving towards a vote tomorrow sometime around noon if my work day goes the way I expect it will.

CrimsonFox · 05-10-2011, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrith

In my experience, being quiet works for about 2-3 games, and then it will get you severely punished in early lynch votes for a long time. I know it's a major factor in how I make day 1/day 2 vote decisions, personally - I'd rather keep someone more talkative around if for no other reason than it makes the game more interesting.

Yeah the Catch-22 of werewolf. Games are terribly boring when no one talks and has fun. But no matter what you say, people use it as a reason to vote for you.

Danny · 05-10-2011, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

Yeah the Catch-22 of werewolf. Games are terribly boring when no one talks and has fun. But no matter what you say, people use it as a reason to vote for you.

This post is suspicious, vote crimsonfox

Tyrith · 05-10-2011, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

Yeah the Catch-22 of werewolf. Games are terribly boring when no one talks and has fun. But no matter what you say, people use it as a reason to vote for you.

Yeah, this is why I will pretty much never cast a day 1 vote for anyone who is in the league average or better in useful posts - there has to be some way to promote behavior that does have a degree of inherent risk. This does lead to the day 1 votes being cast on a subset of the player base who probably finds this unfair, but I'm open to being talked out of it

CrimsonFox · 05-10-2011, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny

This post is suspicious, vote crimsonfox

(a la Michael McKean in Clue) You're a bit late for that!

CrimsonFox · 05-10-2011, 11:12 PM

So are hoops and Tyrith pretty locked in as a voting duo at this point? I have no problem with a quiet vote but are you willing to listen to other analysis?

J23 · 05-10-2011, 11:21 PM

It's funny that this discussion came up when earlier, I didn't expand on my reason for voting for DV at the time because I've been harassed for "too much of a reason for voting day1" previously.

I voted for DV rather than the other candidates, but because he popped into the thread, and brought in a new candidate with me when I was one of a handful of people that gave some more analysis into the room decision today, when there were already a decent number of folks on the block who had been (in my opinion) less helpful thus far.

Anyway, we can't vote for each other in this room (yet), so at least I can't get voted by the villagers in here for fully explaining myself.

I'll look at the numbers more tomorrow morning/afternoon and see if I can come up with some sort of pattern. I tend to like puzzles, so I'll probably be fairly vocal, at least in that facet of the game.

J23 · 05-10-2011, 11:24 PM

One quick thought. If the votes are tallied between the two rooms, we could perhaps vote as a united block on whoever is the lead vote-getter.

I'm trying to piece together whether or not I think this would minimize the wolf influence on the vote, or the opposite.

CrimsonFox · 05-10-2011, 11:25 PM

What really sucks is that the wolves will probably use their PMs to tell the other side how to vote.

CrimsonFox · 05-10-2011, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J23

One quick thought. If the votes are tallied between the two rooms, we could perhaps vote as a united block on whoever is the lead vote-getter.

I'm trying to piece together whether or not I think this would minimize the wolf influence on the vote, or the opposite.

I agree with this, albeit for somewhat selfish reasons, as I think I'm going to be the best candidate for them. If we beat their vote total I might survive.

J23 · 05-10-2011, 11:29 PM

BTW, I voted for the orange room. It might be worth confirming if we all selected the same room, and thus are left in this room together while the other room might be the minority voters.

CrimsonFox · 05-10-2011, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J23

It's funny that this discussion came up when earlier, I didn't expand on my reason for voting for DV at the time because I've been harassed for "too much of a reason for voting day1" previously.

I know how you feel and am constantly annoyed about the overanalysis of my d1 votes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by J23

Anyway, we can't vote for each other in this room (yet), so at least I can't get voted by the villagers in here for fully explaining myself.

I'll look at the numbers more tomorrow morning/afternoon and see if I can come up with some sort of pattern. I tend to like puzzles, so I'll probably be fairly vocal, at least in that facet of the game.

Awesome puzzle work J23. I liked your post on it. I have some thoughts on it as well. I think I've figured out part of it.

CrimsonFox · 05-10-2011, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J23

BTW, I voted for the orange room. It might be worth confirming if we all selected the same room, and thus are left in this room together while the other room might be the minority voters.

ditto. orange.

Darth Vilus · 05-10-2011, 11:31 PM

You guys suck

Darth Vilus · 05-10-2011, 11:32 PM

Jk. You guys really suck :-) Oh well, it happens

CrimsonFox · 05-10-2011, 11:32 PM

sorry DV

But I was just as much under the gun as you so I at least had no choice.

CrimsonFox · 05-10-2011, 11:33 PM

you can tell me to fluff off now although I'll possibly be joining you.

J23 · 05-10-2011, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

Awesome puzzle work J23. I liked your post on it. I have some thoughts on it as well. I think I've figured out part of it.

If you figured out part of it, I'd suggest sharing it as soon as you learn something. It's to our advantage to learn the mechanics earlier when we have more villagers around than later when they might die every night.

I'm also a bit confused if we picked a bad room or not. One person dying from the lynch vote doesn't seem that bad of an option honestly. I can't imagine that we could have selected an option where noone died, otherwise the game would just kinda go on forever, right?

J23 · 05-10-2011, 11:34 PM

Sorry DV. You can see why I voted your way above. With nothing to go on, we all have to pick something. Next time, be a wolf when you vote for me like that!

bhlloy · 05-10-2011, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinto

Haha I don't mind getting some heat day one for how I play since it is as good a reason to vote for someone as any other reason. Luckily Bhlloy is in our group or he would lead the charge against me in the other thread

hey, I played nice day 1 and didn't vote for you on purpose for that reason

CrimsonFox · 05-10-2011, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhlloy

hey, I played nice day 1 and didn't vote for you on purpose for that reason

heheheh NO you voted for ME!

05-10-2011, 11:31 PM	#293
Darth Vilus College Benchwarmer Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: SoCal	You guys suck __________________ "Two there should be; no more, no less. One to embody power, the other to crave it." ―Darth Bane "Tell me what you regard as your greatest strength, so I will know how best to undermine you; tell me of your greatest fear, so I will know which I must force you to face; tell me what you cherish most, so I will know what to take from you; and tell me what you crave, so that I might deny you…" ―Darth Plagueis the Wise

05-10-2011, 11:32 PM	#294
Darth Vilus College Benchwarmer Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: SoCal	Jk. You guys really suck :-) Oh well, it happens __________________ "Two there should be; no more, no less. One to embody power, the other to crave it." ―Darth Bane "Tell me what you regard as your greatest strength, so I will know how best to undermine you; tell me of your greatest fear, so I will know which I must force you to face; tell me what you cherish most, so I will know what to take from you; and tell me what you crave, so that I might deny you…" ―Darth Plagueis the Wise

05-10-2011, 10:21 PM	#253
CrimsonFox Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2009	Thank you hoops. I am totally grateful, even if you are a wolf, thank you.

05-10-2011, 10:22 PM	#254
Tyrith College Starter Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Houston, TX	Well, if we were one big group, my decision for today would come down to weighing how much losing a villager hoops would hurt versus how much getting rid of a wolf hoops would hurt + not wanting him to hunt me down until the end of his days (which would matter more if I was a wolf, obviously.) But that isn't going to be the choice for me today. Honestly, I'm curious how the other thread will come down on the issue, especially since he's usually a bulldog when under pressure and won't be able to defend himself today. I think we have more of the talkers in this thread, though, so who knows.

05-10-2011, 10:26 PM	#257
CrimsonFox Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2009	LOL I just said the opposite of you Tyrith

05-10-2011, 10:30 PM	#258
Tyrith College Starter Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Houston, TX	Well, to be fair, I'm also remembering back to a different era in WW, when hoops was less busy with work during the day, and I remember Danny as a talker. Narcizo is obviously a talker. But I don't really know enough about a lot of you guys to say for sure - most of the regular players I played most of my WW games with don't play anymore.

05-10-2011, 10:30 PM	#259
Zinto College Starter Join Date: Jan 2011	Well a very interesting mechanic and one that threw me through a loop. I am wondering if the two wolf groups got split up into the two rooms or if it had something to do with which room we voted for.

05-10-2011, 10:31 PM	#260
hoopsguy General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Chicago	Well, my initial thoughts - in a game where we won't have any seer, I want guys that are talkers/analyzers to stick around longer. Abe, Autumn, and mckerney are the guys I would prefer not to vote off with this in mind. I have mckerney in the list because I think he seemed interested in participating in analysis more today than I've seen him in past games. Telle Abe Sargent Autumn dwardzala mauboy1 mckerney MrBug708 ntndeacon Schmidty

05-10-2011, 10:36 PM	#261
Danny Head Coach Join Date: Jul 2001	Sorry guys, I did not get a vote in thread or a PMed room vote to Jackal. I thought I was going to be able to be back and online much sooner.

05-10-2011, 10:39 PM	#264
Danny Head Coach Join Date: Jul 2001	Based on what I see so far, I think my best chance is eeny meeny miney mo

05-10-2011, 10:44 PM	#267
Tyrith College Starter Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Houston, TX	I'm willing to be convinced off this vote, but it seems like the vote I'm going to make for the reasons discussed, so I might as well man-up and put it in bold instead of beating around the bush. I realize there's a good chance this will get me lit up tomorrow, but that's life in a giant death box. VOTE DWARDZALA

05-10-2011, 10:45 PM	#269
hoopsguy General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Chicago	We're going to either have to get lucky with good villager votes (see Day 1 last game) or some random game mechanics (inferno in wolf) to get the ball rolling on this one, I think. Going to potentially be a really challenging game.

05-10-2011, 10:57 PM	#277
CrimsonFox Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2009	My favorite alltime "hoops quote" is "And day SIX is the time to start sorting out the QUIET GUYS???" so I'm not surprised by this direction.

05-10-2011, 10:59 PM	#279
Tyrith College Starter Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Houston, TX	Generally I would figure that most wolves would get more quiet instead of less, especially in a message board game (taking out some of the can't-shut-up nervous factor), but that could also be me pushing how I've historically acted as some sort of general principle when it shouldn't be.

05-10-2011, 10:59 PM	#280
hoopsguy General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Chicago	Anyway, I need to get some sleep. I'll start moving towards a vote tomorrow sometime around noon if my work day goes the way I expect it will.

05-10-2011, 11:12 PM	#285
CrimsonFox Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2009	So are hoops and Tyrith pretty locked in as a voting duo at this point? I have no problem with a quiet vote but are you willing to listen to other analysis?

05-10-2011, 11:21 PM	#286
J23 College Benchwarmer Join Date: Jul 2009	It's funny that this discussion came up when earlier, I didn't expand on my reason for voting for DV at the time because I've been harassed for "too much of a reason for voting day1" previously. I voted for DV rather than the other candidates, but because he popped into the thread, and brought in a new candidate with me when I was one of a handful of people that gave some more analysis into the room decision today, when there were already a decent number of folks on the block who had been (in my opinion) less helpful thus far. Anyway, we can't vote for each other in this room (yet), so at least I can't get voted by the villagers in here for fully explaining myself. I'll look at the numbers more tomorrow morning/afternoon and see if I can come up with some sort of pattern. I tend to like puzzles, so I'll probably be fairly vocal, at least in that facet of the game.

05-10-2011, 11:24 PM	#287
J23 College Benchwarmer Join Date: Jul 2009	One quick thought. If the votes are tallied between the two rooms, we could perhaps vote as a united block on whoever is the lead vote-getter. I'm trying to piece together whether or not I think this would minimize the wolf influence on the vote, or the opposite.

05-10-2011, 11:25 PM	#288
CrimsonFox Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2009	What really sucks is that the wolves will probably use their PMs to tell the other side how to vote.

05-10-2011, 11:29 PM	#290
J23 College Benchwarmer Join Date: Jul 2009	BTW, I voted for the orange room. It might be worth confirming if we all selected the same room, and thus are left in this room together while the other room might be the minority voters.

05-10-2011, 11:32 PM	#295
CrimsonFox Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2009	sorry DV But I was just as much under the gun as you so I at least had no choice.

05-10-2011, 11:33 PM	#296
CrimsonFox Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2009	you can tell me to fluff off now although I'll possibly be joining you.

05-10-2011, 11:34 PM	#298
J23 College Benchwarmer Join Date: Jul 2009	Sorry DV. You can see why I voted your way above. With nothing to go on, we all have to pick something. Next time, be a wolf when you vote for me like that!

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