The 2022 MLB Season (?)

[SirFozzie]

A recap of current negotiations:

Owners (Pre-lockout): "Take This shit offer."
Players: "Um, No."
Owners: Ok you're locked out. we hope this puts some urgency on your decision to take our shit offer.
Players: We want what we say we want, and we'll negotiate to try to get it.
Owners: We'll get back to you
(2 Months Pass)
Owners: Now that you have been locked out, take the shit offer.
Players: No, but we're willing to bend somewhat.
Owners: Well, in the spirit of negotiating, we'll modify our offer a bit
Players: Well that's.. wait, that's the same shit offer.
Owners: No it's not. Not... completely
Players: You drew a bowtie on the shit offer!
Owners: Look, are you going to take the shit offer or not?
Players: No.. but..
Owners: Well, this isn't going to get us (meaning our side) anywhere, bring in the mediators.

This will delay spring training, and if it causes a regular season delay, hoo boy...

[sterlingice]

Accurate, sadly

SI

[Lathum]

Why don't these leagues has something in their bylaws where if they can't come to an agreement by date X they have a mediator handle it to avoid delays?

[SirFozzie]

Because then it becomes "wait out the timer till mediation is available"

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Because then it becomes "wait out the timer till mediation is available"

ok, and what is so bad about that?

[PilotMan]

Would you want to give up your bargaining leverage to a mediator who has the final say?

No.

You don't budge for free. You hold as long as you can and if you budge you get something in return.

[SirFozzie]

yeah, basically, these last four-five months there has been no negotiations because, there was no REASON for the players and owners to negotiate. Sure, they're "locked out". But players aren't missing game checks. (yet).Owners aren't having to cancel games (yet).

So basically, there's no penalty to waiting and seeing if you can erode the other side's confidence first. It sucks for all of us.

edit: Honestly, I think you guys know what side I'm on, but I'm worried the players have bent too much already. It's a position of weakness that you've been making the bigger changes to the offer.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

yeah, basically, these last four-five months there has been no negotiations because, there was no REASON for the players and owners to negotiate. Sure, they're "locked out". But players aren't missing game checks. (yet).Owners aren't having to cancel games (yet).

So basically, there's no penalty to waiting and seeing if you can erode the other side's confidence first. It sucks for all of us.

edit: Honestly, I think you guys know what side I'm on, but I'm worried the players have bent too much already. It's a position of weakness that you've been making the bigger changes to the offer.

Yeah, they've already moved some significant pieces while the owners are just shuffling around paltry crap despite the fact that the players should be more hard-line in this because of how they're losing compared to their peers

SI

[GrantDawg]

But it is non-binding mediation, right? Has this happened before, and the owners rejected the mediator? Or was that in the NFL?

[Ksyrup]

The reason the owners continue to not budge much is that historically, the public has held "millionaires who get to play a game for a living" responsible and for some reason give the billionaires who own the teams a free pass. And of course, the owners have other billionaire revenue streams to keep them in the money and the players do not.

So, the owners have very little incentive to do anything other than wait for the monetary and public pressure to build on the players. Sure, you'd like a good working relationship, but every time this happens, the games go on as usual regardless of how much animosity there is after it's over.

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

But it is non-binding mediation, right? Has this happened before, and the owners rejected the mediator? Or was that in the NFL?

I saw something the other day that mentioned mediation was used in 1994 and Donald Fehr said it did jack shit to help come to a resolution.

As a fan, I am frustrated by the whole thing. I feel like if either side really cared about the fans, they would figure out a new deal before the old one expires.

I mostly find fault with this owners. Without the players, the game doesn't exist. So, to me they deserve a bigger piece of the pie. Owners do everything they can to grow revenue and they don't want to share it with the people most responsible for making them the money.

The pace of play issue I put squarely on the owners. They want that tv money. That tv money comes from advertising so they have to have as many commercials as they can to make more money.

Same issue with the minor leagues. When that first became a hot topic a couple of years ago, I did they math. The teams could pay all levels or minors 4 times more than what they were paying at the time and it would have cost each team less than $10 million.

Owners just want more money, money, money. It just seems like an extreme to me. They can afford to give another $20-$30 million per year to the players or whatever the number would be.

It looks like the season is going to be delayed at this point. MLB is my favorite sport, so I am really bummed.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

They can afford to give another $20-$30 million per year to the players or whatever the number would be.

Nice of you to decide how other people should spend their money.

(Not said in true asshole tone, just a way to illustrate the point I was trying to make)

[henry296]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Nice of you to decide how other people should spend their money.

(Not said in true asshole tone, just a way to illustrate the point I was trying to make)

Similarly, my company makes hundreds of millions in profit should they pay me more? They can afford it. I get stock as a benefit so that profit is translating to value through our stock price.

[tarcone]

I just want it to start so I can go to my roto auction and collect my winnings for being the champ last season.

[JPhillips]

You can't compare a normal business to baseball. You almost certainly aren't limited in where you can work or in how much they are allowed to pay you. Make baseball a true free market and I'd complain less, but nobody wants the chaos and competitive imbalance that would cause.

[henry296]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

You can't compare a normal business to baseball. You almost certainly aren't limited in where you can work or in how much they are allowed to pay you. Make baseball a true free market and I'd complain less, but nobody wants the chaos and competitive imbalance that would cause.

You may be right, but the owners certainly do compare it the other business that they run with a goal to maximize profit. That is how they operate. What are the incentives to have them think differently.

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Nice of you to decide how other people should spend their money.

(Not said in true asshole tone, just a way to illustrate the point I was trying to make)

I guess we should shut this thread down then. What's the point in discussing it if this is the way it should be?

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Nice of you to decide how other people should spend their money.

(Not said in true asshole tone, just a way to illustrate the point I was trying to make)

With most of these teams asking for taxpayer money, we have a right to talk about it.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by henry296

You may be right, but the owners certainly do compare it the other business that they run with a goal to maximize profit. That is how they operate. What are the incentives to have them think differently.

As long as the owners get a draft, a foreign player acquisition cap, years of control at min salary, and arbitration, they don't have the same right, IMO, to then also talk about maximizing profits. They want an anti-market system that also rewards them to the maximum extent possible, and, well, fuck that.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

It looks like the season is going to be delayed at this point. MLB is my favorite sport, so I am really bummed.

We have an independent minor league team here and it's really nice to go and chill without dealing with all the hassle of the big park and downtown traffic. I know they don't have any issues with a labor dispute so worst case I have baseball by May.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

I guess we should shut this thread down then. What's the point in discussing it if this is the way it should be?

Discuss away ... just don't assume some sort of inherent "right" to spend other people's money. They largely do this to make money, same as the rest of us who work at anything.

There isn't a single player being held hostage in the U.S. that I'm aware. If they don't like the offer, they're able-bodied, they're welcome find something else that better suits their talents and desires. Only through determined efforts have other similar groups so thoroughly earned my disdain as well as the MLBPA. "Fuck them" would be a kind expression of my sentiments.

Let's just be honest though: If MLB in its current state never returned, I'd be okay with that. I'd be sad it came to that on some level but it would have limited impact on my life at this point aside from video game content.

[SirFozzie]

yeah, the players are recognizing this for the sham delay tactic that it is:

MLBPA Rejects MLB's Request For Federal Mediation - MLB Trade Rumors

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Discuss away ... just don't assume some sort of inherent "right" to spend other people's money. They largely do this to make money, same as the rest of us who work at anything.

There isn't a single player being held hostage in the U.S. that I'm aware. If they don't like the offer, they're able-bodied, they're welcome find something else that better suits their talents and desires. Only through determined efforts have other similar groups so thoroughly earned my disdain as well as the MLBPA. "Fuck them" would be a kind expression of my sentiments.

Let's just be honest though: If MLB in its current state never returned, I'd be okay with that. I'd be sad it came to that on some level but it would have limited impact on my life at this point aside from video game content.

I agree with the first part. They shouldn't be forced to do what they don't want to with their money (although I don't think anyone is suggesting that).

However, MLB does receive special antitrust exemptions that other businesses don't. It's largely why we are at this point. So if we're going with the argument that this all part of the rules of a free market, maybe MLB should have to play by the same rules as the rest of us.

[RainMaker]

It also might be the best time to remove their antitrust exemption. Republicans seemed willing to do it last year as retaliation and there's probably enough free-market Democrats on board too.

[Solecismic]

At first I was inclined to be sympathetic, figuring ticket sales the last couple of seasons have lagged to the point of crisis. Every team shows a negative operating income.

But franchise values continue to climb, and if you own other businesses, a sports franchise is an excellent mechanism for making your taxes disappear. Depreciation is your friend, as are often-strange relationships with regional sports networks.

I don't get it, really. I would have figured the 2004-5 lesson would have stuck. But since franchise values have gone up so much since, even when the sport has dropped considerably in popularity, maybe the owners know exactly what they're doing.

I still can't believe they'd rather implement that awful three-batter rule than have any meaningful discussion about how to shorten commercial and between-pitch delays during games.

[RainMaker]

It's a league run by people who seem to hate the sports of baseball. The ludicrous rule changes is really all we need to see.

One thing as a fan is that I would like them to eliminate the service time manipulation. I get why teams do it and I was on board when the Cubs held Kris Bryant in the minors for 2 weeks to start the 2015 season. But it's horrible for the sport to have good, young stars sitting in AAA over a dumb rule.

I don't know how to fix it. But I look at a team like the Orioles who left Adley Rutschman in AAA all year despite him being more than ready to play in the big leagues. Same for so many others on good and bad teams.

We talk about how bad tanking is, but leaving major league-ready players in the minors encourages it and screws over fans who should be seeing the best players play. I can't think of another sport where this would be acceptable.

[RainMaker]

Does anyone know how video games are handled? Guessing they get a license from MLB and MLBPA. But how do they handle all the free agents? Just start them in the free agent pool? There's some big names out there.

[stevew]

Seems like they should contract at least 2-4 teams. Nobody is really going to miss the Rays/Pirates/A's/Royals/Marlins/Diamondbacks.

[Ksyrup]

I think I read that expansion is on the table, with fees in the neighborhood of $2.2B per team.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by stevew

Seems like they should contract at least 2-4 teams. Nobody is really going to miss the Rays/Pirates/A's/Royals/Marlins/Diamondbacks.

Kindly blow me

SI

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I think I read that expansion is on the table, with fees in the neighborhood of $2.2B per team.

there's maybe enough pitchers for a 20-24 team league as is.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I think I read that expansion is on the table, with fees in the neighborhood of $2.2B per team.

They're waiting to settle Oakland's and Tampa's stadium situations first. They don't want cities to think they can get expansion /or/ steal one of the other teams. They want motivated bidders for each "round" of teams so they're going to let Oakland and Tampa try to get what they can - either staying or moving. Then they'll open up the expansion bidding. There will be 32 MLB teams by 2030 but there's no rush to get them done now.

SI

[rjolley]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Does anyone know how video games are handled? Guessing they get a license from MLB and MLBPA. But how do they handle all the free agents? Just start them in the free agent pool? There's some big names out there.

I read that video games will be on hold: MLB The Show 22 Could Be In Big Trouble

[markprior22]

Well, MLB The Show just announced a 4/1 early access release. Nothing was mentioned about possible delays due to the lockout. I wondered about video baseball a while back but it doesn't seem like the Show will be affected.

[PilotMan]

Expand to 2 24 team "competing" leagues. One east coast, one west coast, then build to a global team invite world championship with the top team from Korea, Japan, and other top leagues.

That's basically my dream baseball set up.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by markprior22

Well, MLB The Show just announced a 4/1 early access release. Nothing was mentioned about possible delays due to the lockout. I wondered about video baseball a while back but it doesn't seem like the Show will be affected.

I guess since Diamond Dynasty is most of what the game is about these days, the roster stuff probably doesn't matter as much. As long as they hav a license with the players, they can form some semblance of a game.

[miami_fan]

Shoot 'em if you got 'em!

Major League Baseball stops testing its players for steroids after nearly 20 years, report says

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It also might be the best time to remove their antitrust exemption. Republicans seemed willing to do it last year as retaliation and there's probably enough free-market Democrats on board too.

And this would be the thing that really would help prevent these labor issues from going on too long. In other sports, the unions have voted to (or threatening to vote to) de-certify if a lockout goes too long - which basically means the owners are fucked, because there is a lot of things that would be considered anti-trust, but are allowed because they are negotiated with labor in a collective bargaining agreement.


No CBA, then things like the draft, service time limitations, etc. are fair game for anti-trust litigation (it's how the NFL got full free agency)...


... if you are subject to anti-trust laws, of course.


In other labor disputes that move by the players got the owners to the table really quick (in fact the NFL as part of their 1993 settlement with the players had as a condition that the NFLPA recertify as a union).

[Ksyrup]

When MLB did their minor league reorg thing, Lexington's minor league team lost its affiliation with the Royals. So they joined the Atlantic League and apparently have played the past couple of years with Brandon Phillips, a few guys with MLB experience, and a bunch of guys from KY as their team. I figured they'd go under because who the hell wants to watch a semi-pro team?

Well, I don't know how the Legends are going to do, but Lexington just added a second minor league team.

The name is the Lexington Wild Health Genomes.

You read that right.

Wild Health is apparently a lab in Lexington and is also taking on naming rights to the stadium which both teams will play in.

Can't wait to see the mascot!

[panerd]

So I admittedly didn't pay close enough attention in 2020 when something similar happened with COVID. I am going on a family vacation and we are going to be in Galveston/Houston in June and we wanted to see an Astros game. If the season gets pushed back 2 weeks, a month, etc do they just rearrange/cancel those games and keep the ones in the summer set? Or does everything get reshuffled including homestands and away games? Also what is the refund policy if they end up on the road when we are there if there is a new schedule?

I mean I guess the best option is to just wait it out but I would probably get our hotel close to Minute Maid for that night if it were normal conditions and no looming season cancellation. First world problems I know.

[sterlingice]

I think the more analogous thing would be what happened to the 1995 season as 2020 was just weird to begin with. That said, relying on baseball to do something logical and fair is probably unreasonable at this point. They'll do whatever makes them the most short term dollars.

SI

[JPhillips]

It's going to be pretty difficult to makeup any games lost to the lockout. Given the length of the season and the need for weather related makeups, there just isn't that much space for lost games to be played. If they miss more than a week, I expect that means a shorter season.

[stevew]

I would suspect it will be annoying to get a refund. in 2020 when it was fairly obvious that they weren't going to be playing due to no fans allowed, it took forever to get one.

[Lathum]

Horrible news: Jeremy Giambi passed away today at his parents’ home in Southern California, according to his agent, Joel Wolfe. Jason and the family request that their privacy be respected during this difficult time.

— Ken Rosenthal (@Ken_Rosenthal) February 9, 2022

[SirFozzie]

Looks like Manfred announced that Universal DH is a go, starting this season as well as getting rid of the Qualifying Offer free agent draft pick compensation

[sterlingice]

Why do I have a feeling that the owners' counteroffer this weekend will be "universal DH, no QO, oh, and none of the core economic issues have moved more than 5% so we're still super far off, but, hey, we made a counter-offer!"

SI

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Looks like Manfred announced that Universal DH is a go, starting this season as well as getting rid of the Qualifying Offer free agent draft pick compensation

OK Mets, get Freddie Freeman signed as soon as this is over.

[ISiddiqui]

Of course, the one thing they can agree upon is universal DH. Bleh.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Of course, the one thing they can agree upon is universal DH. Bleh.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

Sigh, I know

SI

[tarcone]

My conspiracy theory: Owners know this season may be a wash, so they ended PED testing. When baseball resumes watch for another McGwire/Sosa type event.