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Old 09-23-2020, 07:29 PM   #28151
larrymcg421
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Yeah, he'll have Alito, Thomas, and this 3rd appointee. Maybe Kavanaugh. But I don't see Gorsuch going for that at all.

I'm not denying that's what he's banking on. I just don't think he'll be successful.
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Old 09-23-2020, 07:53 PM   #28152
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At that point you're not really living in any sort of democracy so who cares?
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Old 09-23-2020, 08:12 PM   #28153
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I think the idea of state legislators appointing electors is a bigger issue. The whole party is a Trump cult and I could easily see a couple of states doing that because of "voter fraud."
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Old 09-23-2020, 08:21 PM   #28154
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Maybe the real impressive accomplishment is that we've managed to get by for 200+ years with only two elections where "the guy who got the most electoral votes gets to be President" was an issue--even though we've had all of these anti-democratic mechanisms in place the whole time. (Bush/Gore and Tilden/Hayes).

It won't happen, but it sure would be awesome to have an omnibus amendment that fixed a lot of these issues that Dear Leader is bringing to the surface.
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Old 09-23-2020, 08:22 PM   #28155
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Nah, who needs regulations?
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Old 09-23-2020, 08:23 PM   #28156
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At that point you're not really living in any sort of democracy so who cares?

Correct, and that's a good thing. We live in a constitutional republic, not a democracy.

In a pure democracy, laws are made directly by the voting majority leaving the rights of the minority largely unprotected. In a republic, laws are made by representatives chosen by the people and must comply with a constitution that specifically protects the rights of the minority from the will of the majority.
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Old 09-23-2020, 08:29 PM   #28157
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Yeah, we all know this is not a pure democracy, so I don't know if you think that's some stunning insight, but it isn't.

Right now what's happening is the rights of the majority are being infringed by the will of the minority. Is that what the Constitution is supposed to protect?
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Old 09-23-2020, 08:35 PM   #28158
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The US is a democracy. It is a representative democracy. No one argued it was a direct democracy, so I'm not sure what the point of your post was, unless you thought you were actually being insightful with your attempt at a 3rd grade civics lesson as taught by Newt Gingrich..
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Old 09-23-2020, 09:04 PM   #28159
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But if we upgrade to a democracy I'll get another purple card slot.
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Old 09-23-2020, 09:15 PM   #28160
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But if we upgrade to a democracy I'll get another purple card slot.

I love this so much. Will you be my internet best friend?
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Old 09-23-2020, 09:19 PM   #28161
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WaPo released what I think is a pretty fair breakdown on Trump's race record:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...49c_story.html
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Old 09-23-2020, 09:48 PM   #28162
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This line sums up his true feelings for black Americans perfectly

"Trump regretted reducing prison sentences when it didn’t produce a spike in Black voter support."

It was never about anyone but him which is why the momentum of his justice reform quickly subsided as soon as he realized it would hurt him with his base more than it would help him with a group he truly couldn't give 2 shits about.
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Old 09-24-2020, 09:21 AM   #28163
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I hope to hell this cop is ID'd and fired. He's not even riding his bike, he purposely walks it over the dude's head/neck! And appears to push down on the back wheel as it goes over.

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Old 09-24-2020, 09:29 AM   #28164
albionmoonlight
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Originally Posted by BYU 14 View Post
This line sums up his true feelings for black Americans perfectly

"Trump regretted reducing prison sentences when it didn’t produce a spike in Black voter support."

It was never about anyone but him which is why the momentum of his justice reform quickly subsided as soon as he realized it would hurt him with his base more than it would help him with a group he truly couldn't give 2 shits about.

That said, it's a really good law. His motivations might have been cynical, but the result has been lots and lots of guys spending a lot less time in prison than they would have otherwise.
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Old 09-24-2020, 10:33 AM   #28165
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Yeah, it has been one of the few things he has done right. Of course, there is still more to be done in that area as well.

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Old 09-24-2020, 11:36 AM   #28166
BYU 14
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That said, it's a really good law. His motivations might have been cynical, but the result has been lots and lots of guys spending a lot less time in prison than they would have otherwise.

And I totally agree with that, just a shame his intent was not honorable. Also doesn't seem like it will advance any further than it has.
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Old 09-24-2020, 12:11 PM   #28167
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And it'll be interesting to see how $100mil of Bloomberg money changes things in Florida as well.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/23/polit...hts/index.html

Here is what a state representative said when the State Legislature passed the bill that required the debts be paid.

Quote:
Republican State Rep. James Grant, who sponsored a House version of the bill, told CNN that comparing the bill to a poll tax was "insanity." He called the bill "expressly consistent" with Amendment 4 and said that he expects DeSantis to sign it.

"I think the governor understands that we should provide as much flexibility and opportunity for people to pay their debt to society, which this bill does," Grant said. "But it's not going to pretend that debt that exists is no longer existing."

The debt will be paid off, Rep. Grant. It will no longer exists. It is almost like the problem was not the financial debt in the first place.
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Old 09-24-2020, 12:20 PM   #28168
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Until they take voting away from people late on their taxes or other fees the objective is crystal clear.
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Old 09-24-2020, 02:52 PM   #28169
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Old 09-24-2020, 03:10 PM   #28170
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Good for you McConnell.

McConnell pushes back on Trump: 'There will be an orderly transition' | TheHill
Quote:
Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) said on Thursday that there would be an "orderly" transition of power in 2021, after President Trump refused to commit to a peaceful handoff of power if he loses in November.

"The winner of the November 3rd election will be inaugurated on January 20th. There will be an orderly transition just as there has been every four years since 1792," McConnell said in a tweet.
:
:
The comment from McConnell, while not directly criticizing Trump, is notable because the tight-lipped GOP leader frequently refuses to weigh in on the president's remarks, even when they spark backlash from members of his caucus.

Other GOP senators predicted on Thursday that there would be a peaceful transition of power, though many did not directly criticize Trump for his remarks.
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Old 09-24-2020, 03:16 PM   #28171
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I don't think Trump has the support in Washington he believes he does. If he loses the election and tries to cause problems he's going to find out really fast most Congressional GOP only supported him as a GOP president.

I've said McConnell would likely give up the Presidency to someone like Biden if it means he keeps Senate control. I think if he gets this justice pushed through he won't even be too concerned about that. Give him his justice and get Trump out of Washington and he probably couldn't be happier.
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Old 09-24-2020, 03:46 PM   #28172
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The winner of the November 3rd election will be inaugurated on January 20th.

This is so much less than what it might appear to be. He's leaving room for a scenario where Trump could be winning on election night and then the counting is stopped by the courts. He certainly isn't saying that all the votes will be counted.
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Old 09-24-2020, 03:50 PM   #28173
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It does seem awkwardly worded. I have been fearful that Republicans will consider any result that comes after Nov 3 (due to mail in ballots) will be seen as illegitimate.
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Old 09-24-2020, 04:00 PM   #28174
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It does seem awkwardly worded. I have been fearful that Republicans will consider any result that comes after Nov 3 (due to mail in ballots) will be seen as illegitimate.

I'd love to think the West Coast states with long-time vote-by-mail standards have precedence that would prevent this, but that's only wishful thinking.

I read a long Twitter thread yesterday suggesting that all of the opem talk about Trump stealing the election is entirely theater because it's the only position of strength left for him. He can't talk about the polls or covid or any actual results, so he has to draw attention to some of the hypothetical powers he still maintains. I don't know how true any of that is, but I guess it's slightly more comforting than taking it all at face value.
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Old 09-24-2020, 04:06 PM   #28175
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Originally Posted by Atocep View Post
I don't think Trump has the support in Washington he believes he does. If he loses the election and tries to cause problems he's going to find out really fast most Congressional GOP only supported him as a GOP president.

I agree. But do think there is some wiggle room here for a lot of drama if the elections are close e.g. the damn hanging chad. But good to see our checks and balances working (albeit facing some very creative challenges from Trump).

I wonder if Pelosi and McConnell have private phone chats when something big comes up. If they wrote a book together I bet it would be a best seller.
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Old 09-24-2020, 04:21 PM   #28176
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We're absolutely positive that he even cares about winning at this point? My guess is he wants to lose in a fraud Dusty Finish(tm) and then go back out and fundraise for 4 more years. It's probably the easiest money he's actually made in his life. He can wash money and keep his family on the payroll.
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Old 09-24-2020, 04:26 PM   #28177
thesloppy
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We're absolutely positive that he even cares about winning at this point? My guess is he wants to lose in a fraud Dusty Finish(tm) and then go back out and fundraise for 4 more years. It's probably the easiest money he's actually made in his life. He can wash money and keep his family on the payroll.

Yeah, I think Trump's relationship with the presidency is complicated. He loves the attention but hates the scrutiny. Loves the power but hates the responsibility. There is obviously a part of him that hates getting up every morning and having to do this job, and another part of him that would absolutely hate to give it up.
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Old 09-24-2020, 04:36 PM   #28178
Edward64
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We're absolutely positive that he even cares about winning at this point? My guess is he wants to lose in a fraud Dusty Finish(tm) and then go back out and fundraise for 4 more years. It's probably the easiest money he's actually made in his life. He can wash money and keep his family on the payroll.

I think the struggles with this internally but I do think he wants to win. The narcissistic Trump believes he is a winner and "losing" is not in his psyche.

So if/when he does lose, he is setting it up where he can blame it on fraud.
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Old 09-24-2020, 04:38 PM   #28179
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We're absolutely positive that he even cares about winning at this point? My guess is he wants to lose in a fraud Dusty Finish(tm) and then go back out and fundraise for 4 more years. It's probably the easiest money he's actually made in his life. He can wash money and keep his family on the payroll.

One term Presidents are losers. It will crush his ego to leave.
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Old 09-24-2020, 04:39 PM   #28180
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Trump signed an executive order stating that it is the,

Quote:
official policy of the United States Government to protect patients with pre-existing conditions.

Healthcare - DONE
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Old 09-24-2020, 04:46 PM   #28181
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And Trump said he's going to send every senior a card for 200 dollars to spend on prescriptions. I guess if the Treasury will honor the debt, a President can spend any amount of money on anything without any legislative action.

Makes a lot of Dem priorities a lot easier.
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Old 09-24-2020, 04:49 PM   #28182
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Trump signed an executive order stating that it is the,



Healthcare - DONE

If only we had a law that did this...
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Old 09-24-2020, 05:09 PM   #28183
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This might be my favorite thing Trump has ever said.

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Old 09-24-2020, 05:12 PM   #28184
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This is so much less than what it might appear to be. He's leaving room for a scenario where Trump could be winning on election night and then the counting is stopped by the courts. He certainly isn't saying that all the votes will be counted.

Exactly. If Trump is trounced or suddenly decides he's done when he loses, then this tweet is perfectly harmless and correct. If Trump wants to fight a close election, McConnell is saying that the vote as of November 3rd is the election result and by the time they are through with the court battle, the inauguration will be orderly because they will have prevailed.
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Old 09-24-2020, 05:22 PM   #28185
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These folks below are surely going to be pissed.

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Originally Posted by Brian Swartz View Post
Some of the reasons are bad ones, such as the whole 'Obama did it' thing. Others are traditional conservatism; freedom is good, the government having more control of health care is bad, health care can't be a human right because goods and services aren't a human right, etc.
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Old 09-24-2020, 05:28 PM   #28186
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This might be my favorite thing Trump has ever said.



Can we talk more about Biden's mental decline?
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Old 09-24-2020, 05:42 PM   #28187
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One term Presidents are losers. It will crush his ego to leave.
Would that make Hillary the moral winner, as she resided two terms in the white house?
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Old 09-24-2020, 06:45 PM   #28188
Ksyrup
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So let me get this straight - Trump signed an executive order protecting people with pre-existing conditions, which already exists in Obamacare, a law his administration is trying to strike down.
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Old 09-24-2020, 06:53 PM   #28189
albionmoonlight
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Trump signed an executive order stating that it is the,



Healthcare - DONE

Makes about as much sense as opening everything back up because you declare COVID over.

I wonder if they'll have enough Justices to declare reality unconstitutional.
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Old 09-24-2020, 07:07 PM   #28190
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And if he doesn't leave, then what?

I am not trying to be contentious. I am not saying he will not leave in an orderly fashion. But this reads like McConnell has a plan to put Trump out of the White House if Trump decides he is not leaving. I guess the assumption is he will leave because every other president has left in an orderly fashion. But Trump's calling card has been that he is not like any of those other guys. I guess I don't understand the reason for the benefit of the doubt given all that we have seen in the last four years.
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Old 09-24-2020, 07:15 PM   #28191
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Just wait until he goes golfing and change the locks
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Old 09-24-2020, 07:44 PM   #28192
Ksyrup
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I don't know how anyone reads McConnell's statement as pushing back on Trump. At best, it's ambiguous enough to cover both scenarios.
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Old 09-24-2020, 08:34 PM   #28193
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So while its nice that Trump is doing something to help with prescription costs (and I won't believe it until my mother gets the card), this is something he could and should have done in the first year of his Presidency and he would have come out looking like the hero he so desperately wants to be...instead of looking just desperate that he's going to lose and throwing out anything that might save him.
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Old 09-24-2020, 08:39 PM   #28194
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It looks like a direct bribe.

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Old 09-24-2020, 08:48 PM   #28195
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$6 billion bailout for pharma. Cool shit.
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Old 09-24-2020, 09:12 PM   #28196
Brian Swartz
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Originally Posted by RainMaker
These folks below are surely going to be pissed.

Some will, some won't. I think this really highlights the disconnect between us, because it's clear that you don't understand the point of view I've been describing. A one-time bailout is not going to be considered to be nearly as bad by these people as a program that required citizens to buy a product, increased government control over a major industry, imposed required employee benefits on businesses, etc. It's not even close enough to the same thing to be considered apples to oranges.

They were generally against the Bush/Obama stimulus packages, wanted shorter COVID restrictions and had very mixed opinions on CARES objecting to some particulars such as the unemployment benefit, but those things simply are not remotely in the same category as the ACA.

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Old 09-24-2020, 09:16 PM   #28197
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They get pissed when other people get benefits, but they're happy to take their own benefits.

I got mine, fuck you.
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Old 09-24-2020, 09:33 PM   #28198
stevew
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They get pissed when other people get benefits, but they're happy to take their own benefits.

I got mine, fuck you.

yeah but they "earned" their benefits.
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Old 09-25-2020, 06:19 AM   #28199
Edward64
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Originally Posted by miami_fan View Post
And if he doesn't leave, then what?

I am not trying to be contentious. I am not saying he will not leave in an orderly fashion. But this reads like McConnell has a plan to put Trump out of the White House if Trump decides he is not leaving. I guess the assumption is he will leave because every other president has left in an orderly fashion. But Trump's calling card has been that he is not like any of those other guys. I guess I don't understand the reason for the benefit of the doubt given all that we have seen in the last four years.

There is no doubt Trump will cause chaos if/when he loses, that is his modus operandi. The question is whether Congress & SCOTUS will stand for it.

If it's clear cut loss, GOP Congress won't play Trump's games. Sure there'll be some whining and some of the radicals will do their thing but overall, Congress/SCOTUS won't support Trump.

If it's a close loss, it'll be a different matter. With all the BS that is sure to come, best guess it'll eventually end up with/in SCOTUS playing a key role - were the elections rigged, mail-in ballots fair, Bloomberg actions in FL, recounts whatever etc.

And SCOTUS will rule based on their interpretation of the constitution and we'll have what we have. If they ultimately rule in Trump's favor, I'll accept it and wait for 2024. Unlike many on this board, I'm not concerned about a conservative slant in SCOTUS, I believe they are good people (well, at least the vast majority of them). They grew up in the system, they'll know what is at stake and do the best job they can.

My question to you:

If Trump wins a close one on Nov 3 (or maybe 4th, 5th) will you accept it?

Do you envision Dems contesting it? Will there be violence in the streets by "antifa"?

Last edited by Edward64 : 09-25-2020 at 06:21 AM.
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Old 09-25-2020, 06:29 AM   #28200
tarcone
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Im going to play the "what if" game.

What if Trump has secretly been amassing a bunch of generals with his same mind set? What if he loses and refuses to leave and the military steps in and backs him? Then what?
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