2015 NBA Offseason Thread

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by Qwikshot

Finally, I'm disgusted with WIP sportsradio in Philly; they actually don't like Stauskus because he's Canadian. They also roped in Flyers players who aren't American either...they want Philly type players...I've never heard such stupidity.

You weren't by any chance listening to Innes today? The rant was a joke. I believe he even started it out by saying it was going to be a sarcastic rant. Said it ended up like when you see an Onion article and many people act like it was a real news article.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

If this is solid...yeesh. This is like rooting for a perennially 7-9 to 9-7 NFL team. In other words: no-man's land.



edit: I mean...that's one playoff series win in a decade. That's not quite Wizards bad (they went what, 20 with zero at one point?) but that's pretty bad. And yeah, I left out the finals run of 2000-2001*, which came on the heels of seasons of 25, 24, 18, 22, 31 wins -- and was largely the result of drafting AI with the 1.1. So, tanking and getting lucky.

* yeah yeah, and a monster 35-31 strike-shortened year in 11-12. Woo.

In 11-12 didn't they start out something like 10-2 and then the rest of the season was pretty mediocre.

[Arles]

As I said, there are better examples in this recent NBA. Both Milwaukee and Phoenix didn't hit on a bunch of draft picks. From 2011 to 2014, the Bucks had two "good" picks in Giannis and Parker. Most of their team was added in trade/FA (Middleton, Knight->MCW, Mayo, Bayless, Vasquez, their bigs). Same with the Suns. They've completely missed on a lot of first rounders (Earl Clark, Kendall Marshall, Tyler Ennis,...) and really only have Markieff Morris and Len as proven picks. The rest of their team (Dragic/Knight, Bledsoe, Gerald Green, PJ Tucker, Brendan Wright, Marcus Morris, Chandler) have all been trades/FA. Even the FA signings that don't work out (Isaiah Thomas, Scola, Gortat) got flipped for picks and assets (those three combined to get 3 first round picks, Gerald Green and Plumlee). There's value in using your cap space on quality players - even if they don't work out.

So, what's the best case for Philly over the next two years? Even if they hit on Okafor and Noel, they have no guards/forwards. No bigtime FAs want to go there and they have shown no willingness to add quality players via trade. At some point, you have to do what Milwaukee, Houston, Phoenix and others have done and collect actual assets that can play. It can't just be all Euros and draft picks. No one is going to want to extend (a la Noel in two years) or join via FA to play with the cardboard cutout of Saric and a bunch of future draft picks.

[murrayyyyy]

http://dougstats.com/14-15/Philadelphia76ersLF.html

Who knew that Robert Covington lead them in the 2nd half of the season in scoring. For the Noel backers saying he is getting a ton better without MWC, he was 5th in PPG in the 2nd half. It's not like 11-9 is bad but seriously, who would see those Noel stats and think, that is the building block we need when he was seen as their best player.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by nol

To put it in a different perspective the Denver Nuggets waived him this year and this is his 6th team in 3 seasons.

I get that...why is it so? Fairly decent rebounder, can score a bit. Per 36 looks decent. I'm not sayimg he's a starter but have just been completely astonished at his career path.

Is he a bigger turdball than Beasley?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Arles

I said that the 3rd or 4th season is when the turnaround starts. And it's not just about winning titles. The Suns, Thunder, Hawks, Bucks and Pacers haven't won a thing - but they've had fun teams to watch and root for.

Umm, can't speak for all the others but the Hawks have basically been interesting for one season. The previous three were largely dont' give a damn affairs and the four playoff seasons prior to that had limited appeal by & large.
And that's preceded by the 8 straight lotteries.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by stevew

I get that...why is it so? Fairly decent rebounder, can score a bit. Per 36 looks decent. I'm not sayimg he's a starter but have just been completely astonished at his career path.

Is he a bigger turdball than Beasley?

He's a pretty inefficient scorer for a big. This wouldn't be a bad thing if he kept his shooting to a minimum, but he's mostly been a black hole. Takes bad shots and doesn't pass much.

He's also a terrible defensive player.

[nol]

Originally Posted by Arles

I said that the 3rd or 4th season is when the turnaround starts. And it's not just about winning titles. The Suns, Thunder, Hawks, Bucks and Pacers haven't won a thing - but they've had fun teams to watch and root for. This Philly idea that you are either the Spurs and Cavs or you shouldn't even try is awful for fans.

Presupposing a complete lack of competitiveness over the next two seasons is premature to say the least. You have to be betting that nobody improves (individually or through continuity) from a rotation full of the 20-23 year olds who played last season, that Embiid never plays, that Jahlil Okafor is not an improvement over some D-League big, and that nothing comes of the cap space and draft picks.

Originally Posted by Arles

That's how you start building. Houston, Milwaukee, Phoenix and others have done this. Then, when a legit FA is available (Howard, Aldridge, Monroe,...), you have an appealing team and a shot at landing them. That's how you improve in the NBA.

"Try to make an appealing team by hitting on good draft picks and signing good free agents for cheap" is what the majority of the league thinks it's doing every single year. You are listing the most pronounced success stories, but the zero-sum nature of the standings tells you that most of these teams are more likely to be mediocre or worse.

It takes some balls to say "You know what, we're Philadelphia. The roster alone puts us in a really deep rut, the city is nothing special as a destination, we don't have some supernatural ability to bat 1.000 on our draft picks, so we're not going to get anywhere trying the exact same stuff as everyone else."

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

http://dougstats.com/14-15/Philadelphia76ersLF.html

Who knew that Robert Covington lead them in the 2nd half of the season in scoring. For the Noel backers saying he is getting a ton better without MWC, he was 5th in PPG in the 2nd half. It's not like 11-9 is bad but seriously, who would see those Noel stats and think, that is the building block we need when he was seen as their best player.

1. The thing called defense is pretty important.
2. The trade deadline takes place later than the 41st game.
3. The rookies who scored more points per game than him were either on even worse teams or were 24 years old.

Originally Posted by stevew

I get that...why is it so? Fairly decent rebounder, can score a bit. Per 36 looks decent.I'm not sayimg he's a starter but have just been completely astonished at his career path.

Is he a bigger turdball than Beasley?

Because everything besides that is bad rather than meh to this point. Basically a slightly smaller, worse at finishing, more turnover-prone version of JJ Hickson. He's worth a flier at the minimum, but the fact that the two most Moneyball teams in the league have kicked the tires on him and passed is a good indicator that there was not going to be a bidding war for his services.

[RainMaker]

I guess the question is would you rather be Milwaukee going forward or Philadelphia going forward?

[nol]

I would stop short of penciling in the Bucks for a substantial improvement this year. They are going to have some figuring out to do with lineups because Parker and Monroe at the 4/5 will probably not cut it defensively, and taking one of those guys out for Henson leaves the Bucks really short on shooting. They were 11-18 after trading Knight, and it's not like the schedule suddenly got difficult on them. You can definitely put some of that on adjusting to a very different style of player, but I also think Milwaukee will experience a Phoenix effect where teams will prepare for them a little more seriously.

Now, Giannis could take a huge step forward this season and make all those worries irrelevant, but after seeing him take 1 three-pointer the entire Chicago series with all the space they gave him I'm less confident about it than I would have been last October.

[RainMaker]

I don't think they'll contend or anything, but I think I'd rather be in their position going forward. They have 2 prospects better than anything we've seen on Philly (Parker and Giannis). Monroe is a better player than anyone on Philly and just turned 25. Middleton is 23 and under control for another 4 years on a really good contract.

That's basically 4 really good young players on their team. Two of them with potential to be great (Parker and Giannis).They need one of those (or both) to contend in the East over the next few years.

I get what Philly is doing. And if you're an incredibly patient fan, maybe it pays off someday. They'll have a million first round picks next year and maybe that leads to one of those players developing into a star 2-3 years later.

My issue with the Philly approach isn't whether it'll work at some point or not. It's how long it will take. I just don't see a route for them to be competitive for another 3+ years.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by nol

1. The thing called defense is pretty important.
2. The trade deadline takes place later than the 41st game.
3. The rookies who scored more points per game than him were either on even worse teams or were 24 years old.

1) 76ers is a nickname, not a goal for points to score in a game. His blocks/steals are impressive against 5's but he will be moving to the 4 I assume. His fouls will probably increase this year as he moves from guarding slow 5's in the East to 4's. Also a decent rebounder.

2) trade deadline Feb 19th. Stats I linked started after the ASG Feb 15th. I got one game from you. Doesn't make him a 12 ppg scorer much less a 15 ppg guy.

3) Major holes in his game are his FT shooting (60% put him 21st out of 24 qualifying rookies) and he has an assits/TO ratio of under one. Add in that he needs to find an effective shot outside of 3 feet (28% from 3-10 ft) and I don't see him having that leap you expect for a cornerstone player from year 1 to 2.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I guess the question is would you rather be Milwaukee going forward or Philadelphia going forward?

Let's throw Boston into that mix. Because we were doing the same thing as Milwaukee, except they got lucky twice - hitting on Giannis (while we picked Olynyk), and winning the lottery to draft a "sure thing" in Parker (while we ended up with Marcus Smart.) Then they pushed a few chips in (prematurely/for the wrong guy imo) by trading the Lakers pick for MCW and going after Greg Monroe (who topped my list of players I was afraid the Celts would Max offer). Shit, if we'd just tanked a little we'd have Justise Winslow instead of Terry Rozier. I mean, I like our roster (more than most), but I'd trade it all for Noel/Okafor, let alone Embiid, Saric, and the difference in our picks next June. And if Milwaukee turns into a legit contender anytime soon, its because Parker/Giannis turned into an All-NBA guy.

I also don't think there's a huge amount of praise for Hinkie like you implied in your first post. This specific trade, yes, but overall there's more criticism than praise (some of it jealousy-driven from other front offices). They very nearly changed the draft rules to.combat it, I sure as heck wouldn't pay NBA prices to watch Sixers games, and even his biggest supporters question whether you should bring in some competent veterans to be locker room leaders or risk the young studs developing really bad habits and culture.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

1) 76ers is a nickname, not a goal for points to score in a game. His blocks/steals are impressive against 5's but he will be moving to the 4 I assume. His fouls will probably increase this year as he moves from guarding slow 5's in the East to 4's. Also a decent rebounder.

2) trade deadline Feb 19th. Stats I linked started after the ASG Feb 15th. I got one game from you. Doesn't make him a 12 ppg scorer much less a 15 ppg guy.

3) Major holes in his game are his FT shooting (60% put him 21st out of 24 qualifying rookies) and he has an assits/TO ratio of under one. Add in that he needs to find an effective shot outside of 3 feet (28% from 3-10 ft) and I don't see him having that leap you expect for a cornerstone player from year 1 to 2.

What are you even arguing? It's the NBA in 2015, where a legit rim protector who can actually switch on many pick and rolls is invaluable. Even if he never develops an offensive game beyond putbacks and diving to the rim he's somewhere in the DeAndre Jordan/Tyson Chandler range. He's not the #1 player on a championship team, but can absolutely be #3, maybe even #2.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

1) 76ers is a nickname, not a goal for points to score in a game. His blocks/steals are impressive against 5's but he will be moving to the 4 I assume. His fouls will probably increase this year as he moves from guarding slow 5's in the East to 4's. Also a decent rebounder.

2) trade deadline Feb 19th. Stats I linked started after the ASG Feb 15th. I got one game from you. Doesn't make him a 12 ppg scorer much less a 15 ppg guy.

3) Major holes in his game are his FT shooting (60% put him 21st out of 24 qualifying rookies) and he has an assits/TO ratio of under one. Add in that he needs to find an effective shot outside of 3 feet (28% from 3-10 ft) and I don't see him having that leap you expect for a cornerstone player from year 1 to 2.

His post ASG stats were 13ppg 10rpg 1.9apg 2.3blp 2.1spg. That's as a 20 year old after not playing for a year. He's probably not going to develop into the top player on a title winning team, but I don't know how you can say that's not a pretty good building block.

Assist to turnover ratio for rookies doesn't mean much. High turnover rates early in a player's career is one of the top indicators of a player with a lot of future growth. Both Wiggins and Parker had negative assist to turnover rates as well.

[murrayyyyy]

Another case of Texas having an advantage? Matthews turns down 16 a year for 4 years to play in Dallas for a rumored 10-12 per year contract.

I still wonder how much teams from Texas use the bank account with teams as of late? I can't get past 52% versus 39% when comparing Cali to Texas in taxes. Don't get me wrong, the Kings are a dumpster fire but how many years does Dirk have left?

[nol]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I don't think they'll contend or anything, but I think I'd rather be in their position going forward. They have 2 prospects better than anything we've seen on Philly (Parker and Giannis).

Operative phrase being "we've seen." Philly has gotten one cumulative season out of Embiid, Noel, and Okafor so far while Milwaukee has gotten 2 1/2 seasons out of those two guys. I don't think that's enough time either way to overturn the relatively conservative prior beliefs that Embiid - when healthy - is the best prospect of the five and Okafor is a better prospect than Parker. I'd even say when you factor how the two have looked defensively, Noel scoring 10-12 per game is just as impactful as Jabari Parker scoring 18-20. If everybody plays this year, that's 4 1/2 seasons to 4.

[Arles]

Philly vs Milwaukee/Phoenix is like comparing a lottery ticket to sound investments. Chances are the latter group finishes with 44-50 wins next year and have a lot of fair contracts/nice assets (the Suns have 5 1sts over the next 3 years plus the Miami later pick). Philly is going to win 16-25 games again and need the lakers (top 3 port) or their pick to add an elite guy, plus 2 of Embiid/Okafor/Noel/Saric to be a top tier guy next offseason. Then, they can maybe be in a position to start winning 30 games. They will also start needing some vet FA help/legit trades.

[Arles]

The Celtics remind me of what Houston did a few years back. Collect a ton of assets, but still sign and trade for vets to be somewhat competitive. Eventually, you need a Harden-style move to take the leap, but at least your team isn't an eyesore for 4-5 years (like Philly's plan). Plus, their situation is somewhat attractive long term (like Houston's was) because they have some legit NBA players. So, a big time player might be interested in extending there, unlike the current D-League team in Philly that no one wants to join.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Arles

The Celtics remind me of what Houston did a few years back. Collect a ton of assets, but still sign and trade for vets to be somewhat competitive. Eventually, you need a Harden-style move to take the leap, but at least your team isn't an eyesore for 4-5 years (like Philly's plan). Plus, their situation is somewhat attractive long term (like Houston's was) because they have some legit NBA players. So, a big time player might be interested in extending there, unlike the current D-League team in Philly that no one wants to join.

And how often do those Harden/Garnett type players show up on the trade market? Not to mention that trading for that superstar will take away several of our assets. What's the price for DMC? Marcus Smart, Sullinger, one of Crowder/Isaiah Thomas and pick your number of 1st round picks?

Conversely, if Philly could get a star, they'd have no problem pivoting and filling out the roster with role players. Trading any one of their 3 big men would bring in a ton, and that's before 2 of them have stepped on a NBA court. Plus they have all that cap space - they couldn't sign Amir Johnson, Robin Lopez and Wesley Mathews if they had a big star to surround?

Look, I hate what Hinkie's doing, hope the NBA changes its draft system (somewhat selfishly on my part as it's clear the Celtics won't be top 3-5 worst soon, so I'd love smoothed out odds that give 11-14 a decent chance at a top 3 pick), but the odds of Okafor, Embiid or whatever top pick they get next year looking like a superstar within the next 2 years is so much more likely than a true superstar appearing on the trade market it's not even worth debating.

And BTW, before calling Philly an eyesore or railing against Hinkie let's just remember that there were actually 2 teams with worse records than them! Minnesota's sitting pretty with Karl-Anthony Towns next to Andrew Wiggins for the next decade and no one seems to have a problem with how they've gotten there despite it actually involving a 10 year walk through the lottery (more than 33 wins once in the last 10 seasons) that involves a whole lot of mismanagement (trading Garnett for pennies, messing up with Love so he demanded out but getting lucky with the return, blowing multiple high lottery picks.)

[nol]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I also don't think there's a huge amount of praise for Hinkie like you implied in your first post. This specific trade, yes, but overall there's more criticism than praise (some of it jealousy-driven from other front offices). They very nearly changed the draft rules to.combat it, I sure as heck wouldn't pay NBA prices to watch Sixers games, and even his biggest supporters question whether you should bring in some competent veterans to be locker room leaders or risk the young studs developing really bad habits and culture.

You don't have to read between the lines much to see that the vast majority of what's written about the 76ers stems from a mutual complaining session in which a writer vents about how the Philly front office guys don't give him any good information and an anonymous front office source vents about not having the job security to make the moves the 76ers do.

That the takeaway generally seems to be "Hinkie is crap and should be fired already!" rather than "Maybe more owners should give the basketball people more leeway to do their jobs" is pretty funny.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by nol

You don't have to read between the lines much to see that the vast majority of what's written about the 76ers stems from a mutual complaining session in which a writer vents about how the Philly front office guys don't give him any good information and an anonymous front office source vents about not having the job security to make the moves the 76ers do.

That the takeaway generally seems to be "Hinkie is crap and should be fired already!" rather than "Maybe more owners should give the basketball people more leeway to do their jobs" is pretty funny.

To an extent yes, but some of those FO guys are sincere. That's why you've seen so much momentum towards changing the draft the last year in particular (I'm still shocked the Spurs flipped sides and torpedoed it) - its not just Adam Silver replacing Stern, but also seeing a team take tanking to its logical extreme.

I just wish more people in Philly would have voted against this plan with their wallets, but it's shocking how little ticket revenue has dropped off (and now there's light at the end of the tunnel.)

[nol]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

To an extent yes, but some of those FO guys are sincere. That's why you've seen so much momentum towards changing the draft the last year in particular (I'm still shocked the Spurs flipped sides and torpedoed it) - its not just Adam Silver replacing Stern, but also seeing a team take tanking to its logical extreme.

Oh, I have no doubt they are sincere that their owners and/or coaches push them into making dumb moves from time to time, but the actual margin of the vote compared to how unanimous the perception was the Sixers were just ruining the sport of basketball (people literally thought the Sixers were going to be the only team voting against it) speaks to how much of an echo chamber there is.

[murrayyyyy]

Do the Knicks at least get a B+ in the offseason? Afflalo, Ro-Pez(assuming signing rumor is true), Porzengis and Grant. I don't know if they can run the triangle but it has to be better. All they have to do is bring back Linsanity and they can at least be a 6 in the East.

[Chief Rum]

Reports coming out that DJ is going to the Mavs.

[nol]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

Do the Knicks at least get a B+ in the offseason? Afflalo, Ro-Pez(assuming signing rumor is true), Porzengis and Grant. I don't know if they can run the triangle but it has to be better. All they have to do is bring back Linsanity and they can at least be a 6 in the East.

They did fine, and on the Knicks curve that's probably higher than a B+. However, it's not like last season had a super promising start that was cut short due to Carmelo's injury; they were doing just as poorly as they were the season before and the rookies are not goink to be any kind of immediate improvement over the players they had around Carmelo (assuming he hasn't lost anything following surgery) the last time the Knicks were a playoff team.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Reports coming out that DJ is going to the Mavs.

Underrated aspect of this for the neutral fan: Cuban launching an all out crusade toward altering the way "hack-a- ..." is handled. No matter how you stand on the issue, its definitely gonna live up that discourse

[Arles]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

And how often do those Harden/Garnett type players show up on the trade market? Not to mention that trading for that superstar will take away several of our assets. What's the price for DMC? Marcus Smart, Sullinger, one of Crowder/Isaiah Thomas and pick your number of 1st round picks?

Everyone was railing on Morey before the Harden trade, now they love him again. There is a blueprint to having a watchable team and still setting yourself up for a shot at being elite. You continue to trade for assets/picks, sign undervalued FAs/RFAs and try to hit on one starter every 2-3 draft picks. Many smart GMs have done this successfully. Is it a guarantee? No, but if you are a smart GM, you should be able to set your team up over time to be in a good position should an opportunity arise. Ultimately, that's what bothers me about Hinke's strategy. It's like he has no confidence in his ability to sign value FAs or trade for players on up-and-coming contracts. To just neglect these avenues to improve the team for 3 straight seasons is silly to me. It's like playing Texas Hold'em and saying "You know what, just deal me one card - I still like my chances".

Conversely, if Philly could get a star, they'd have no problem pivoting and filling out the roster with role players. Trading any one of their 3 big men would bring in a ton, and that's before 2 of them have stepped on a NBA court. Plus they have all that cap space - they couldn't sign Amir Johnson, Robin Lopez and Wesley Mathews if they had a big star to surround?

Again, this is why his strategy is akin to holding 4-5 lottery tickets. He needs one to win to have any chance of it working and the odds are not with him. None of the Bucks picks have been "lottery winners", same with the Suns and Houston. Yet, all three teams used multiple ways to improve even though they didn't hit the lottery. That's the smart way to build - not just pray the next Davis/Durant/Lebron falls in your lap.

Look, I hate what Hinkie's doing, hope the NBA changes its draft system (somewhat selfishly on my part as it's clear the Celtics won't be top 3-5 worst soon, so I'd love smoothed out odds that give 11-14 a decent chance at a top 3 pick), but the odds of Okafor, Embiid or whatever top pick they get next year looking like a superstar within the next 2 years is so much more likely than a true superstar appearing on the trade market it's not even worth debating

Sure, now that you've suffered through 3 brutal seasons, you have a few players (Okafor and Noel look to be the best so far) that have a lot of upside. But they are no closer to being a good team. Let's go best case - the 76ers get the #1 pick next season and Embiid can actually run down the court. Now, they have 3 guys plus a Euro coming over that can only play the 4/5. The top 2 picks appear to be either Skal Labissiere (7-foot PF/C) and Ben Simmons (6-10 PF, maybe SF if his shooting improves). So, once again, Philly is taking a project big at #1 or 2. When does this team get any better? These guys are going to need atleast a couple seasons to be NBA ready (Both will be 19 at the draft). Now, you are beginning to face an RFA decision with Noel the following season and eveyone under the sun having a ton of cap space. What if he decides to play out the QO and leave a la Monroe? The problem is there is no light at the tunnel right now as all Hinkie's eggs are in the Embiid/Okafor/Noel basket. He hasn't added anyone else who could even be a role player for a legit team. That's insane given the assets he's had (has) over the past 2-3 seasons.

And BTW, before calling Philly an eyesore or railing against Hinkie let's just remember that there were actually 2 teams with worse records than them! Minnesota's sitting pretty with Karl-Anthony Towns next to Andrew Wiggins for the next decade and no one seems to have a problem with how they've gotten there despite it actually involving a 10 year walk through the lottery (more than 33 wins once in the last 10 seasons) that involves a whole lot of mismanagement (trading Garnett for pennies, messing up with Love so he demanded out but getting lucky with the return, blowing multiple high lottery picks.)

Shockingly, there are poorly run organizations in the NBA. The T-Wolves, Kings and Knicks have done a worse job than Philly. But being the tallest midget doesn't mean that is something to be proud of. Many organizations have had fewer assets than Hinkie did when he arrived and ended up turning it around in 2-3 seasons. When Ryan McDonough joined the Suns, they had such great contracts as Michael Beasley, Scola, Jermaine O'Neal, Sebastian Telfair, Shannon Brown, Wes Johnson and a 30-year old injured/crabby Marcin Gortat who had missed 20 games due to injury and wanted out. The "young assets" he had were Dragic, Markieff Morris (averaging 8 PPG in his 2nd year), Kendall Marshall and 27-year old Jared Dudley (who 2 teams have dumped since). In two seasons, he turned that mess into Eric Bledsoe, Brandon Knight, Alex Len, Devin Booker, PJ Tucker, Tyson Chandler, 6 additional 1st rounders (Archie Goodwin, Bogdan Euro, TJ Warren and 3 unused) and will have either Markieff or Aldridge at the PF spot. That's a pretty nice turnaround with really only one real legit asset (Dragic) when he arrived and some albatross contracts he had to get out of (ie, Beasley). He has 5 1sts in the next 3 drafts and a young roster that has a shot at the playoffs in a very tough Western conference. If they can land Aldridge (which appears 50-50), they could win 50 games. Even without him, they have a shot at 45+ wins just two years after inheriting a 25-win team with only one legit asset.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Arles

Shockingly, there are poorly run organizations in the NBA. The T-Wolves, Kings and Knicks have done a worse job than Philly. But being the tallest midget doesn't mean that is something to be proud of. Many organizations have had fewer assets than Hinkie did when he arrived and ended up turning it around in 2-3 seasons. When Ryan McDonough joined the Suns, they had such great contracts as Michael Beasley, Scola, Jermaine O'Neal, Sebastian Telfair, Shannon Brown, Wes Johnson and a 30-year old injured/crabby Marcin Gortat who had missed 20 games due to injury and wanted out. The "young assets" he had were Dragic, Markieff Morris (averaging 8 PPG in his 2nd year), Kendall Marshall and 27-year old Jared Dudley (who 2 teams have dumped since). In two seasons, he turned that mess into Eric Bledsoe, Brandon Knight, Alex Len, Devin Booker, PJ Tucker, Tyson Chandler, 6 additional 1st rounders (Archie Goodwin, Bogdan Euro, TJ Warren and 3 unused) and will have either Markieff or Aldridge at the PF spot. That's a pretty nice turnaround with really only one real legit asset (Dragic) when he arrived and some albatross contracts he had to get out of (ie, Beasley). He has 5 1sts in the next 3 drafts and a young roster that has a shot at the playoffs in a very tough Western conference. If they can land Aldridge (which appears 50-50), they could win 50 games. Even without him, they have a shot at 45+ wins just two years after inheriting a 25-win team with only one legit asset.

Not saying you're wrong, but does that "6 additional first rounders" include the ones that came over for Steve Nash? They were already in place before McDonough got there.

[stevew]

Dallas got DJ and Matthews?

[nol]

Originally Posted by Arles

Everyone was railing on Morey before the Harden trade, now they love him again. There is a blueprint to having a watchable team and still setting yourself up for a shot at being elite. You continue to trade for assets/picks, sign undervalued FAs/RFAs and try to hit on one starter every 2-3 draft picks.

Anybody railing against Morey was just knee-jerk anti-numbers, and I'm also pretty sure Sam Hinkie was doing more than answering phones in the office when he worked for the Rockets during the build-up to trading for Harden. Now I suppose there's a chance that he's a complete imbecile who Morey had to correct every single day for 7 years ("No Sam, the blueprint is to collect undervalued assets and win games, not to lose every game. How many times do we have to go over this?"). Or, maybe there's not an absolute blueprint and each team's strategy depends on its own particular situation.

[Vince, Pt. II]

The Mavericks are going to be so much different next season, wow.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by nol

Oh, I have no doubt they are sincere that their owners and/or coaches push them into making dumb moves from time to time, but the actual margin of the vote compared to how unanimous the perception was the Sixers were just ruining the sport of basketball (people literally thought the Sixers were going to be the only team voting against it) speaks to how much of an echo chamber there is.

No, there are some that are sincerely aghast that a team would pre-tank an entire season. Tanking once injuries happen or late in the season is one thing, but throwing a whole season away is another - just look at the vitriol in this thread!

I don't think it was an echo chamber issue, I really think those teams like the Spurs hadn't put much thought into it until it was a real possibility. And I still think they might be been on board if there had been a longer lead time or would've been implemented further down the road - as much as you might hate the Sixers, it's still bush league to alter incentive structures on the fly.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Arles

Everyone was railing on Morey before the Harden trade, now they love him again.

Who was railing on Morey? Some people were questioning his strategy (and a lot also questioned whether Harden was a star too), and I think people were starting to wonder if his strategy was smart, but not everything is a love/hate thing. Any vitriol his way was due to his layups and 3's strategy, or the way he talked about statistics, not about his team building strategy.

It's like playing Texas Hold'em and saying "You know what, just deal me one card - I still like my chances".

No, it's like folding and keeping your hole cards for 2-3 turns in a row so you have 8 hole cards to choose from instead of 2 when you decide to play a hand. Doesn't guarantee a win when you do play, but gives you better odds.

Again, this is why his strategy is akin to holding 4-5 lottery tickets. He needs one to win to have any chance of it working and the odds are not with him.

A lot better odds than having 1 lottery ticket.

None of the Bucks picks have been "lottery winners", same with the Suns and Houston.

Really? Getting the #2 pick and Jabari Parker wasn't a " lottery win"?

Let's go best case - the 76ers get the #1 pick next season and Embiid can actually run down the court. Now, they have 3 guys plus a Euro coming over that can only play the 4/5. The top 2 picks appear to be either Skal Labissiere (7-foot PF/C) and Ben Simmons (6-10 PF, maybe SF if his shooting improves). So, once again, Philly is taking a project big at #1 or 2. When does this team get any better?

I thought Saric was a 3, but that aside, if Embiid/Okafor break out, they can trade someone then! Would you like the team that much better if they had Russell instead of Okafor, or Marcus Smart in place of Noel? Because that 2nd trade (or a similar guard for big one) was on the table at the draft, and will be on the table in a year barring 3 career-ending injuries. You draft BPA as a rebuilding team then trade if necessary, especially when they have injury concerns. Let's see if the 3 bigs get on the court at the same time before saying they need to trade one for a perimeter player.

Kevin Durant won 20 & 23 games his first two seasons, no one was freaking out and it helped them get Westbrook and Harden. Philly could try for 35 wins, but all it would do is lessen their chance at an additional star - literally look at the Celtics. The playoff push was fun, and it was the difference between Terry Rozier and Justise Winslow, let alone a Jahlil Okafor. Our late season competence the year before was the difference between Marcus Smart and Andrew Wiggins or Jabari Parker.

Shockingly, there are poorly run organizations in the NBA. The T-Wolves, Kings and Knicks have done a worse job than Philly.

And for various reasons the whole system is set up to reward those teams. McDonagh isn't perfect (I thought his trade deadline was a clusterfuck. Thanks for Isaiah Thomas and his 3/$19.7m deal though!) but he's done a really nice job. Ainge has done a good job, I think Utah has done a nice job, Milwaukee's done a solid job, yet the teams best set up for success the next 10 years are New Orleans and Minnesota.

Sam Hinkie's pursuing a strategy. Not one I'm a fan of, and I hope it blows up in his face, and the NBA changes the rules down the line to stop rewarding failure, but he's been pursuing it decently well. And most of all I hope people realize the difference between praising a specific move (in this case, the whole argument started when people said Hinkie made out in the deal with Sacramento, which.... Of course he did! I wish the Celtics made that trade with some of our cap space!) and approving of the overall strategy.

I mean, I get why other FO guys are mad at Hinkie. I get why Philly ticketholders have the right to be upset. I don't understand why other teams fans are actually mad about it. I personally love it when other teams are terrible. We wouldn't have our last championship if Minnesota was competently run. We wouldn't be in as good a position going forward if Billy King didn't have a job. Sacramento cracks me up, etc. If you think it's such a bad strategy, just wait it out and he'll be fired soon enough if that's the case (but it's not, and all the smart people know that).

[murrayyyyy]

So how the hell do the Clippers find a center now? Aren't they close to the cap? Trading is the only option and I see no reason for Dallas to help with sign and trade deal. Indiana on line one?

[nol]

Hibbert would be a decent stopgap who would still allow the Clippers to have some money to throw around next year, but I'm not sure if the cap stuff even works. Kosta Koufos would be a decent cheap option.

[stevew]

I guess it's like this-if the Cavs or Wolves or Pirates/Rays/Astros wanna tank it sucks, but it's a strategy for a smaller market non destination team.

Now when large markets with prestige like a the Sixers or Cubs do it, it's truly an abomination against God because those brand names have considerably more value.

Argue if you want, but the Sixers are way closer to the Lakers/Celts/Bulls/Knicks than the Cavs/Bucks/Suns/Etc

[stevew]

Dola-

Once this Cavs team is done, the next great hope for Cleveland basketball relevance is currently in 4th or 5th grade and is still years away from SVSM.

[nol]

Originally Posted by stevew

I guess it's like this-if the Cavs or Wolves or Pirates/Rays/Astros wanna tank it sucks, but it's a strategy for a smaller market non destination team.

Now when large markets with prestige like a the Sixers or Cubs do it, it's truly an abomination against God because those brand names have considerably more value.

Argue if you want, but the Sixers are way closer to the Lakers/Celts/Bulls/Knicks than the Cavs/Bucks/Suns/Etc

That's pretty easy to argue. Just Google NBA franchise sale prices and you'll see how many people were lining up to capitalize on that 76ers brand.

A sampling of sales from even before the Kings and Bucks sold for around $500 million each: Bobcats for $275M + $150M in debt (just majority ownership), Nets for $200M + $180M in debt (majority share), Wizards for > $500M, Warriors for $450M, Pistons for $325M, 76ers for $280M, Hornets for $338M, Grizzlies for $377M.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by stevew

I guess it's like this-if the Cavs or Wolves or Pirates/Rays/Astros wanna tank it sucks, but it's a strategy for a smaller market non destination team.

Now when large markets with prestige like a the Sixers or Cubs do it, it's truly an abomination against God because those brand names have considerably more value.

Argue if you want, but the Sixers are way closer to the Lakers/Celts/Bulls/Knicks than the Cavs/Bucks/Suns/Etc

The 76ers are ranked 27th in franchise value according to Forbes. Last year Cleveland brought in about $25 million more in revenue.

[Groundhog]

With Rondo officially on board, these Kings are really going to be terrible to watch in the halfcourt...... Cousins is going to have about 4 guys collapsing on him every time he touches the ball.

[stevew]

Well, it must take a special odd combination of factors for a team in the nation's 4th largest tv market with a gimmick that is literally "America" to be worth so little. The eagles are the 7th most valuable nfl franchise. I'm somewhat amazed.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Not saying you're wrong, but does that "6 additional first rounders" include the ones that came over for Steve Nash? They were already in place before McDonough got there.

No, he got one from Wash for Gortat. One from Indiana for Scola. One from Boston (via Cle) for Thomas and two from Miami for Dragic. I'm not sure where the Bogdan pick came from, but I don't think it was a Lakers pick.

[nol]

Aldridge is going to the Spurs, per Woj. You'd almost have to say the Wes Matthews injury changed everything for the Blazers considering Aldridge had postponed surgery to help with Portland's playoff run.

[Neon_Chaos]

I love it when Jalen Rose gets it right.

[Arles]

Most people felt the Spurs were heavy favorites going in. It's a positive step for the Suns that LMA felt Phoenix was more appealing than LA, NY, Dallas, Houston and Miami. But, in the end, it's hard to argue with Aldridge's decision. Going home to play with Pop, Duncan, Kawhi and company gives him a great chance to win a title.

[whomario]

Biyombo to the Raptors for a mere 6/2. Seems a good situation for him. One of the worst offensive players in the league, but a helluva defender. Would have been a nice stop gap for the Clips ...

Meanwhile, Summer League has also started. Mario Hezonja hitting a game winner in OT, why of course he did (kinda surprised he is even playing, was playing in the spanish league finals only about a week ago)

[murrayyyyy]

I was about to ask when the Chandler recruiting of Lin was going to happen but it looks like Dallas is in the lead on him now so the bro-mance will be back on.

Also looks like the the Lakers are trying to sign Hibbert. I'm sure Kobe love a high energy guy like this :-/

[Suicane75]

I got no real dog in this argument cause I've been turned off to the NBA for many years now, but, I've gone from casually rooting for the 76ers and watching a good deal of their games even when they were bad, to paying next to zero attention to them at all. In fact, the past couple years, outside of their top picks, I wasn't even able to name a player on their roster. Now maybe if the team gets back to a certain level, a lot of fans like me come back, but at this point it's going to have to be a pretty high fucking level.

[murrayyyyy]

for those bored, I saw on reddit the guy who makes the Chamberlain Archive videos.

https://www.youtube.com/user/dantheman9758

Been watching videos today but I don't think I ever understood just how big he was compared to everyone.