The Trump Presidency – 2016

[cuervo72]

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/10/us/wh...rke/index.html

If we're doing the recently-posted religion and race articles thing.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/10/us/wh...rke/index.html

If we're doing the recently-posted religion and race articles thing.

I've been tracking a rise in YouTube channels by hyper-conservative apologists railing against groups like the The Gospel Coalition (which, I don't know, even 6 months ago I would have put squarely on the conservative theological end of the spectrum -- and, in fact, I still would) as bastions of neo-Marxist infiltration into "real" Christianity because they're focusing on racial and inequality issues ("chasing culture") rather than focusing on abortion and teh gays like true Christian leaders.

Coupled with the resurrection of KJV-Only inspiration rhetoric, it's an interesting development.

I have to admit, however, that I don't have much experience with racial issues in the church (outside of the generic "racism is bad"...by which I mean that it wasn't something we ever really talked about). My brother is a Presbyterian pastor in Mississippi, just outside of Memphis. He assures me it's a much bigger deal in his neck of the woods.

[PilotMan]

I'll say it again, the day that I decided that I didn't need to be bound by dogmatic religious beliefs and structure was the day I was truly set free to be myself. No longer was I bound by an external definition of good and bad. No more guilt, no judgement, no discussion of biblical interpretation, no hope that something else was in charge, predetermined, or looking for some other meaning in the events around my life. Everything became clean, simple and translucent. I could breathe.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/10/us/wh...rke/index.html

If we're doing the recently-posted religion and race articles thing.

White Christians did not agree: More than 6 in 10 said those topics are not essential for pastor to examine, with 40% insisting that race and immigration should not be mentioned at all at church.

'cause, you know, Jesus never talked about those sort of things


Then again, these are the same (insert bad word here) who will pick out a single OT verse to justify some sort of bigotry.

Our church has a different side of the problem described in that article. It's awkward as church is, I'm guessing, about 80% white and talking about problems of race. They (we) want to engage but we're coming from a position of genuine (though not willful) ignorance.

SI

[Drake]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

I'll say it again, the day that I decided that I didn't need to be bound by dogmatic religious beliefs and structure was the day I was truly set free to be myself. No longer was I bound by an external definition of good and bad. No more guilt, no judgement, no discussion of biblical interpretation, no hope that something else was in charge, predetermined, or looking for some other meaning in the events around my life. Everything became clean, simple and translucent. I could breathe.

I think I'm exactly the opposite in my orientation. I need the structure to react against, because at least the structure knows something about itself. Even at a bare materialist level, it's a couple thousand years of people who are smarter than me trying to figure out how human beings relate to themselves and to each other and what the proper way of doing that might be. It's an existentialist framework generator.

I'm one of those sorts of people who does my best thinking reactively. I need something to bounce against in order to analyze my trajectory. It's the same mentality that made me a great undergraduate student. I can connect threads across a ton of different inputs and come up with an interesting synthesis of seemingly unrelated ideas...but coming up with an original assertion and then trying to defend it? I wouldn't even know where to start.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Our church has a different side of the problem described in that article. It's awkward as church is, I'm guessing, about 80% white and talking about problems of race. They (we) want to engage but we're coming from a position of genuine (though not willful) ignorance.

SI

In my church, we'd be looking at the one black guy every time we said something and waiting for him to nod to tell us we were on the right track.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/10/us/wh...rke/index.html

If we're doing the recently-posted religion and race articles thing.

Racism has been prominent in the evangelical movement. Falwell Sr was a staunch segregationist and his son seems to be picking up that mantle. Religions was used by preachers to defend slavery, Jim Crow, and segregation through over a century. Now they're being used to defend mass slaughter and incarceration of those based on ethnicity or race.

They can pretend that race isn't an issue to them, but they backed the white supremacist.

[RainMaker]

And as I mentioned, this is not new. Evangelicals loved George W Bush. A guy who slaughtered hundreds of thousands of innocent people in the middle east over "faulty intelligence". Supported the torture of individuals. Then made drastic cuts in health care, mental health, and child care for poor people because he needed to make up the gap for his tax cuts for the rich. He let an American city fend for itself after a natural disaster.

They also got behind Ronald Reagan, who was actually not religious at all. He ignored atrocities around the world and armed our enemies. Initiated the violent overthrow of a democratically elected government. Supported Apartheid in South Africa, created Al-Qaeda, and let farmers lose their livelihoods and joked about it. And of course completely ignored AIDS and joked about how it was killing the right people.

Evangelicals are the most morally bankrupt people in this country who have nothing in common with the tenets of Christianity. They use it as cover to hate and oppress people. They didn't sell out for Trump, they've been selling out for hundreds of years in this country.

[molson]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

ELCA in the House! I was just attending a Virtual Holy Week(end) with a group of young leaders in the church, focused on George Floyd and Black Lives Matter. The youth here in our Church also give me hope.

I think I mentioned this to you before, but I know about a dozen ELCA pastors and see Facebook posts about their youth group conventions and such (and my father was an ELCA pastor heavily involved in the national stuff in the 70s and 80s). Most of them are in the northeast, but, I do have a cousin pastor that just moved from South Carolina to Durham.

I don't go to church now, but every so often out when I'm feeling brave and my friends are church-bashing I kind of gently work in that I grew up in a church that wasn't at all like the ones they're familiar with or think they're familiar with. Though I have to remember that their experiences are very different than mine - I know some people whose parents disowned them because they were gay, etc. I'm not looking to convert them or anything, I just don't want to judged or assumed to have certain traits. I still kind of have a hard time connecting the Christianity that I grew up with with the hateful version I hear about. Those things just don't make sense to me together, and to this day I really don't know any conservative Christians, in my family or otherwise.

So my perspective on church and religion is kind of wacky because my friends and acquaintances are almost all either far-left Christians or far-left occasionally vocal atheists. Even among my friends in Idaho. They're all very similar in almost every way except half finds great value in the church and half believe church is the root of all evil. Sometimes I think I'm a good influence on the latter group - I'm Christian, work in the criminal justice system, AND am a Boston sports fan. Basically a trilogy of evil. But they still like me. And I tend to keep those things to myself until I know someone well, I have found all three to be triggering to some people in certain contexts.

[SirFozzie]

Say it with me, the CRUELTY IS THE POINT.

https://t.co/lrV72UUxn3?amp=1

When Albert Paul Cruz opened a letter from the Education Department last month, he saw the words he’d been waiting for: “We approved your claim.” The government finally agreed that he’d been defrauded by ITT Technical Institute, the defunct for-profit chain where he’d racked up almost $60,000 in student loans getting what he considers a worthless degree.

Then he scrolled to the next page and saw how much of that debt would be forgiven: zero. The department, the letter said, had concluded he suffered no financial harm.

[thesloppy]

NEWSWEEK: ICE Offering 'Citizens Academy' Course with Training on Arresting Immigrants

The U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agency is set to launch a six-week "Citizens Academy" course on immigration enforcement, which will include training for citizens on how to arrest undocumented immigrants.

What could possibly go wrong with this idea.....gotta defend that Chicago border.

[QuikSand]

Maybe the US Government will contract with Trump University for $1.8B to operate the classes. I mean, at this point, why even pretend, right?

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

NEWSWEEK: ICE Offering 'Citizens Academy' Course with Training on Arresting Immigrants

The U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agency is set to launch a six-week "Citizens Academy" course on immigration enforcement, which will include training for citizens on how to arrest undocumented immigrants.

What could possibly go wrong with this idea.....gotta defend that Chicago border.

Can we FOIA request the list of people who signed up to take the class?

Might be useful to know which of my neighbors is a wanna-be Brownshirt.

[PilotMan]

Among her most searing moments during the response to the hurricanes came when she heard Mr. Trump raise the possibility of “divesting” or “selling” Puerto Rico as the island struggled to recover.

“The president’s initial ideas were more of as a businessman, you know,” she recalled. “Can we outsource the electricity? Can we can we sell the island? You know, or divest of that asset?”

She said the idea was never seriously considered or discussed after that meeting.

[cuervo72]

Sell the brown people (PR), buy the [perceived] white ones (Greenland).

I'm sure China would love Guam.

[JPhillips]

It all makes sense. Sell Puerto Rico and fabricate a claim on Toronto. Use the money from the sale to hire mercenaries and surprise the Canadians before their morale is at full.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Can we FOIA request the list of people who signed up to take the class?

Might be useful to know which of my neighbors is a wanna-be Brownshirt.

From the article

which includes six days of training over a six-week period starting in September.

Included in the course would be training in "defensive tactics, firearms familiarization and targeted arrests."

So in 6 days average Joe is going to become a qualified immigration enforcement officer? How fucking stupid do you need to be to think this could possibly have any kind of positive outcome? Shit like this is just begging for another Ahmaud Arbery situation.

We can't even give our Police Officers adequate training and we are going to get weekend Barney Fife's up to speed in 6 days?

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Maybe the US Government will contract with Trump University for $1.8B to operate the classes. I mean, at this point, why even pretend, right?

Shhh... don't give him ideas. The only corrupt ones he hasn't done are the ones he hasn't thought of

SI

[Thomkal]

Trump's campaign staff and others have been sure to tweet him wearing a mask today for the first time and sadly think this will be enough to defeat Biden. Maybe if he had done that back in March...

[lungs]

Meanwhile at the Wisconsin State GOP Convention:

how is this real life pic.twitter.com/qctr60kbgl

— Aaron Miller (@amillerphd) July 11, 2020

[NobodyHere]

Trump's former physician: People are 'trying to make the president look bad' - Fox News - The Baltimore Post

Well to quote The Producers, "He didn't need our help!"

[Thomkal]

I hope some reporter follows up on that lungs and finds out that if he had COVID, how many people just got it from him.

[cuervo72]

Or he could be like me, who just randomly swallows saliva down the wrong pipe and goes into choking fits. Because I am smooth and coordinated like that.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Or he could be like me, who just randomly swallows saliva down the wrong pipe and goes into choking fits. Because I am smooth and coordinated like that.

Same.

[Ksyrup]

Or it could have been a natural reaction to saying Donald John Trump.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Or he could be like me, who just randomly swallows saliva down the wrong pipe and goes into choking fits. Because I am smooth and coordinated like that.

+1

[Butter]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Or he could be like me, who just randomly swallows saliva down the wrong pipe and goes into choking fits. Because I am smooth and coordinated like that.

My wife and I both do this. It's really just started in our 40's. We have termed it "choking on spit."

"What's wrong?"
"Just choking on spit."

[JPhillips]

The WH sent out an oppo research folder on Fauci.

[Edward64]

I've stated that I don't fault Trump (or at least too much) for the pre-Feb early days, do fault him for early-Feb to his "I can't read speech" in mid-March when he had an opportunity to take it seriously and mobilize the country, and said don't know if Hillary/Biden could have done significantly better after mid-March.

However, this second wave is all on him.

There'll still be covidiots and true disagreements on pace and method to re-opening. How hard would it have been for him to say

"Look country, we need to slowly re-open. I'm mandating everyone wears a mask, avoid crowds (other than the BLM protests of course), and schools and businesses limit/alternate onsite presence etc. We'll monitor and adjust as needed. And oh by the way, I've authorized $X billions for the ramp up manufacturing of X, Y, Z"

vs turning a blind eye and being oblivious to the serious threat here.

[miked]

How can you not fault him for the pre-Feb days. Everyone knew it was coming, everyone told him to take it seriously, other countries were reporting massive issues, but he called it a hoax and refused to prepare.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by miked

How can you not fault him for the pre-Feb days. Everyone knew it was coming, everyone told him to take it seriously, other countries were reporting massive issues, but he called it a hoax and refused to prepare.

Everyone may have heard of it but not everyone was convinced it would spread or get that bad over here.

WP and NYT warned us it would be a pandemic on Feb 2 (that's when I started the COVID-19 thread).

Read the first page of that thread and you'll see even forum members here disagreed on the severity or risk implications in early Feb.

[SirFozzie]

I'm glad that I didn't see DeVos on the Sunday shows today. It would have induced a rage fit.

(From several tweets)

BASH: "Yes or no: Can you assure students, teachers and parents that they will not get coronavirus because they’re going back to school?"

DEVOS: "Well, the key is that kids have to get back to school."

---
DeVos: “There’s nothing in the data that would suggest that kids being back in school is dangerous to them.” DeVos downplays possibility kids can pass virus along to others. DeVos also won’t say if schools should listen to CDC guidelines.


The Trump administration is a Capitalist suicide pact.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Butter

My wife and I both do this. It's really just started in our 40's. We have termed it "choking on spit."

"What's wrong?"
"Just choking on spit."

I know that you guys are kind of kidding around and this isn't the purpose of this thread but my brother and I both had/have this problem and it is possibly dysphagia and/or GERD. He ended up developing esophageal cancer and I had to have surgery for Barrett's Esophagus. Not trying to be Debbie Downer but if it happens a lot and/or when you are laying down you may want to catch things early. Thankfully my brother survived and is cancer free but his recovery was no joke.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

I'm glad that I didn't see DeVos on the Sunday shows today. It would have induced a rage fit.

(From several tweets)

BASH: "Yes or no: Can you assure students, teachers and parents that they will not get coronavirus because they’re going back to school?"

DEVOS: "Well, the key is that kids have to get back to school."

---
DeVos: “There’s nothing in the data that would suggest that kids being back in school is dangerous to them.” DeVos downplays possibility kids can pass virus along to others. DeVos also won’t say if schools should listen to CDC guidelines.


The Trump administration is a Capitalist suicide pact.

How are the schools, county, state protecting themselves from liability? If there is an outbreak in a school and some kid(s) spend days in the hospital or die, I would think parents would sue them.

Also, I wouldn't put it beyond parents to sue other parents for sending their kid to school knowing they showed symptoms (wife is a special ed school teacher, parents send their sick kids to school all the time).

[miked]

Parents are desperate. I met a woman who said she signed her kid up late at Woodward so she could get back to a normal life since City of Atlanta is now virtual for 9 weeks. Literally! She got the news and immediately paid $25k (or whatever it is) to put her kid in a private school. If this does not scare you as a parent (the desperation of kids getting back to school) then I'm not sure what will. There are absolutely, 100%, parents that will send their kids to school with symptoms just to get a break.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by miked

There are absolutely, 100%, parents that will send their kids to school with symptoms just to get a break.

I know many, many, parents not willing to send their kids back. to say 100% is absurd. We are still on the fence, depending on the opening plan for our district, but I am leaning towards sending them. that being said it isn't to get a break from them.

[SirFozzie]

Um, I think you misread that miked 100% thing.

he's not saying 100% of parents will send their kids to school with symptoms
he's saying that there's a 100% chance that at least some parents would do that.

[Lathum]

aha, I see now.

yeah. He is right. Parents sucks

[miked]

Confusing wording. Basically there are parents out here who either think a) everything is a sham and kids are lowest risk and b) get my kids out of the house at all costs so I can be normal again. This is not 100%, but I would put some chunk change saying it was 25-50% especially in the south.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Everyone may have heard of it but not everyone was convinced it would spread or get that bad over here.

WP and NYT warned us it would be a pandemic on Feb 2 (that's when I started the COVID-19 thread).

Read the first page of that thread and you'll see even forum members here disagreed on the severity or risk implications in early Feb.

Aside from the fact there were still weeks between feb 2 and a point where swift action would have made a huge difference: He's president and we discuss in a forum. People here seeing the glass half full and hoping for the best harms no one. People in power should Prepare for the worst, hope for the best. Not just hope for the best.

He downplayed it on March 9th, saying nobody shuts shit down for the flu, implying doing so here would be ludicrous. Then he declared an emergency only to within 10 days blur the message by turning it into an international conflict of sorts (China), hawking unproven medication (implying all will be fine) and picking up the "cure worse than disease" narrative while arguing

Was it a bunch of tough calls ? Yes. Were the facts murky ? Yes. Did the CDC testing failure hurt a lot ? Yes. Did bad luck contribute early on ? Yes.

But please don't pretend he didn't contribute to the chaos and uncertainty with the way he refused to even entertain the thought of it being a problem. He is the president. His job is to lead. If he leads wrong based on faulty data/advice that hurts but is understandable. But that is not what the problem was. The problem was he treated the whole situation as some sort of inconvenience, brought up by his 'enemies' to rain on his parade.

[PilotMan]

word is Fauci hasn't talked with trump in a month, was purposely kept off of tv, and doesn't visit the wh any longer. the reason being that trump doesn't like what he says and doesn't believe him. cos trumps gut is instantly more right than anything else. also trump gets a lot of work done on the golf course always working.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by miked

Confusing wording. Basically there are parents out here who either think a) everything is a sham and kids are lowest risk and b) get my kids out of the house at all costs so I can be normal again. This is not 100%, but I would put some chunk change saying it was 25-50% especially in the south.

Plus parents who need them taken care off to be able to work (which, if not, also effects the economy), especially now with the extra benefits running out (i think ?). Or parents that actually depend on their kids getting school lunches. Or those that know that their home situation is problematic or not conducive to learning or just realize the disadvantage it puts their kid in.

There really are 2 massively shitty options to chose from re: open/close(online)

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by panerd

I know that you guys are kind of kidding around and this isn't the purpose of this thread but my brother and I both had/have this problem and it is possibly dysphagia and/or GERD. He ended up developing esophageal cancer and I had to have surgery for Barrett's Esophagus. Not trying to be Debbie Downer but if it happens a lot and/or when you are laying down you may want to catch things early. Thankfully my brother survived and is cancer free but his recovery was no joke.

Nah, this isn't GERD. I can be sitting up and I go to talk or breathe and just have too much saliva in my mouth (I am a drooler - always have to hold the suction by my self at the dentist, but as a plus I don't get cavities. Downside: wet pillows). Some slips down when I am inhaling and away we go. I've done this for years.

[GrantDawg]

DeVos and the far rights dream is the end of public schools. This is exactly what they want. Have parents with money diverting their kids to private schools and/or homeschooling. They could care less about poor kids, or teachers. They have been doing everything they can to end special needs funding as well.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[NobodyHere]

Well I think I have officially entered the 2020 campaign season.

I just saw an ad by Trump attacking Biden for wanting to defund police.

I know now that I'm in for a long season of political ads. I wish I didn't live in a purplish state.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

DeVos and the far rights dream is the end of public schools. This is exactly what they want. Have parents with money diverting their kids to private schools and/or homeschooling. They could care less about poor kids, or teachers. They have been doing everything they can to end special needs funding as well.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

This one dude I vaguely knew tried to get me into Amway. It was already dead on arrival, but I told him to double fuck off because of DeVos ruining education(my wife is a teacher).

[Galaril]

Edward....What do dueling crises reveal about American exceptionalism?
Covid-19 Is Destroying the Myth of American Exceptionalism | The Nation
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlo...1ff_story.html
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...lation/613423/
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...nalism/611605/
https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2020...tary-american/

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Galaril

Edward....What do dueling crises reveal about American exceptionalism?
Covid-19 Is Destroying the Myth of American Exceptionalism | The Nation
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlo...1ff_story.html
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...lation/613423/
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...nalism/611605/
Commentary: American exceptionalism needs a reboot - The Salt Lake Tribune

I've learn to try define "what we are talking about" (and constantly remind what that is as we tend to get on tangents often).

I've not read thru all the articles but can you summarize crisply what your discussion topic is?

I think, but don't want to assume, it is one of the 3 ... "American exceptionalism is no more" or it could be "American exceptionalism never really existed" or "American exceptionalism is temporarily on break"?

Also, I think this could be a interesting discussion. Glad to share an immigrant POV.

However, I would ask if you are one that thinks the core of the US is racism (the ADL definition), let's not bother having the conversation because it will inevitable devolve into a non-productive conversation with more radical elements on this forum chiming in incessantly and derailing us.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I've learn to try define "what we are talking about" (and constantly remind what that is as we tend to get on tangents often).

I've not read thru all the articles but can you summarize crisply what your discussion topic is?

I think, but don't want to assume, it is one of the 3 ... "American exceptionalism is no more" or it could be "American exceptionalism never really existed" or "American exceptionalism is temporarily on break"?

Also, I think this could be a interesting discussion. Glad to share an immigrant POV.

However, I would ask if you are one that thinks the core of the US is racism (the ADL definition), let's not bother having the conversation because it will inevitable devolve into a non-productive conversation with more radical elements on this forum chiming in incessantly and derailing us.

American exceptionalism is no more"- I would argue it is greatly damaged over the past 4 years. You have often posted about how it is still a place many want to come to. That has been true I would argue up until now. I have a number of immigrant members in my direct family - wife and children.


“However, I would ask if you are one that thinks the core of the US is racism (the ADL definition), let's not bother having the conversation because it will inevitable devolve into a non-productive conversation with more radical elements on this forum chiming in incessantly and derailing us. “
I would say overall no but we definitely have some major racial issues probably due to the large makeup of people in US of a diverse racial, cultural, religious and ethnic background. I am more interested in how we improve the issue as to why it is thoughI can argue that the why can be quite beneficial in improving the overall issue.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Galaril

American exceptionalism is no more"- I would argue it is greatly damaged over the past 4 years. You have often posted about how it is still a place many want to come to. That has been true I would argue up until now. I have a number of immigrant members in my direct family - wife and children.

Thank you for remembering my arguments about the US being far and ahead the place immigrants want to come to (regardless whether or not they can). This is one of my central tenants as evidence that the US is still looked on as the "land of opportunity" (e.g. I don't see many clamoring to live in the Nordic countries as first pick).

I lean towards American exceptionalism/land of opportunity is temporarily on hiatus. I cannot argue that Trump has definitely hurt the US from the overall view of the world.

Originally Posted by Galaril

“However, I would ask if you are one that thinks the core of the US is racism (the ADL definition), let's not bother having the conversation because it will inevitable devolve into a non-productive conversation with more radical elements on this forum chiming in incessantly and derailing us. “

I would say overall no but we definitely have some major racial issues probably due to the large makeup of people in US of a diverse racial, cultural, religious and ethnic background. I am more interested in how we improve the issue as to why it is though I can argue that the why can be quite beneficial in improving the overall issue.

I too want to discuss how to improve current race discrimination/bigotry and also, albeit lesser/smaller extent, ADL-racism. I do believe there is a degree of systemic ADL-racism but I personally do not believe it is as prevalent as some here believe.

Going to bed. Give me a little time to read your articles & formulate my thoughts for you to react to.