FBI Opens Investigation into Shooting of Michael Brown

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by booradley

FBI — Table 43

Well, according to the FBI, blacks are the runaway leader in two major forms of crime that would bring them into armed conflict with the police: Murder and nonnegligent manslaughter (52.2% of ALL such crimes committed) and Robbery (56.4% of ALL such crimes committed).

In cases where the perpetrator is under 18, the situation is worse - 54.3% and 74.1% respectively.

Considering that blacks constitute between 12-13% of the overall U.S. population, these numbers are extraordinarily bad.

It's what led Tulsa Police Department Maj. Travis Yates (Top Tulsa police officer: 'We're shooting African Americans about 24 percent less than we probably ought to be' | TheHill) to state: “we're shooting African-Americans about 24 percent less than we probably ought to be, based on the crimes being committed."

Don't want to write a book - you guys are smart and can get the gist.

..and again, you'd have a point if the steady stream of remarkable examples of police brutality against black people, that has been on public display through the entirety of your life, were in any way restricted to folks committing violent crimes.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by booradley

FBI — Table 43

Well, according to the FBI, blacks are the runaway leader in two major forms of crime that would bring them into armed conflict with the police: Murder and nonnegligent manslaughter (52.2% of ALL such crimes committed) and Robbery (56.4% of ALL such crimes committed).

In cases where the perpetrator is under 18, the situation is worse - 54.3% and 74.1% respectively.

Considering that blacks constitute between 12-13% of the overall U.S. population, these numbers are extraordinarily bad.

It's what led Tulsa Police Department Maj. Travis Yates (Top Tulsa police officer: 'We're shooting African Americans about 24 percent less than we probably ought to be' | TheHill) to state: “we're shooting African-Americans about 24 percent less than we probably ought to be, based on the crimes being committed."

Don't want to write a book - you guys are smart and can get the gist.

Those numbers are for arrests, but @40% of murders are left unsolved.

Shooting less than we ought to be si so fucking ridiculous it doesn't need commentary.

There are sooo many studies showing the racial disparity in arrests, convictions, sentencing, and parole decisions. If you don't accept that evidence there's really no point in discussing the issue.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by booradley

FBI — Table 43

Well, according to the FBI, blacks are the runaway leader in two major forms of crime that would bring them into armed conflict with the police: Murder and nonnegligent manslaughter (52.2% of ALL such crimes committed) and Robbery (56.4% of ALL such crimes committed).

You mean crimes where arrests were made. We can see from the drug war that blacks and Latinos (blacks at a higher rate than Latinos) are arrested at far higher rates for drug crimes than whites, even though whites and blacks & Latinos do and sell drugs at the same rates (from SAMHSA analysis). And blacks get the highest criminal terms for the same offenses.

https://www.vox.com/2014/7/27/594078...new-york-times

White and black people report using drugs at similar rates, according to the latest data from the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration. There's some variance from drug to drug: white people report more often using cocaine, heroin, and hallucinogens, while black people report more marijuana and crack cocaine use.

These statistics underline why critics decry the war on drugs as racist. Although black people are much more likely to be sent to jail for drug possession, they're not more likely to use drugs.

A 2009 report from Human Rights Watch found black people are much more likely to be arrested for drugs. In 2007, black people were 3.6 times more likely to be arrested for drugs than white people.

Considering that blacks constitute between 12-13% of the overall U.S. population, these numbers are extraordinarily bad.

Right, they show the level of systemic racism.

I'll echo JPhillips, if you don't want to accept the racial disparity in policing, convictions, sentencing then we don't have enough agreement to have any discussion this matter. And I'll just leave it as, yes, I think it's obvious that this had to do with race, and if he was white, he'd likely be alive. And to believe otherwise is "unworthy of the debate at hand"

[Arles]

I'd like to see how the Wendy's situation started when the cops arrived. If the guy was drunk and sleeping in a car, I'm betting there was a much easier way for two cops to evaluate, book him and remove his vehicle without ending up in a scrum on the parking lot asphalt.

I think the biggest issue in these situations is how they are started by cops. If you come in with a plan and to simply evaluate/apprehend/book and not antagonize - a lot of this could be avoided. My main frustration isn't in the ending of it after the guy stole the taser an ran (although it is unfortunate) - it is that two cops escalated the situation to get to that point. Again, I could be wrong given I haven't seen the start of the video, but that is my impression given how the rest was handled.

[Jukeman]

Originally Posted by Arles

I'd like to see how the Wendy's situation started when the cops arrived. If the guy was drunk and sleeping in a car, I'm betting there was a much easier way for two cops to evaluate, book him and remove his vehicle without ending up in a scrum on the parking lot asphalt.

I think the biggest issue in these situations is how they are started by cops. If you come in with a plan and to simply evaluate/apprehend/book and not antagonize - a lot of this could be avoided. My main frustration isn't in the ending of it after the guy stole the taser an ran (although it is unfortunate) - it is that two cops escalated the situation to get to that point. Again, I could be wrong given I haven't seen the start of the video, but that is my impression given how the rest was handled.

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CBauBRX...=1pmp2qvdha9ak

https://youtu.be/Y5imM40d5Fs

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Arles

I'd like to see how the Wendy's situation started when the cops arrived. If the guy was drunk and sleeping in a car, I'm betting there was a much easier way for two cops to evaluate, book him and remove his vehicle without ending up in a scrum on the parking lot asphalt.

I wonder if the Wendy's people thought to knock on his car window and ask him to move his car to a parking spot if he was in the middle of the drive through lane (though from the video it didn't seem like he was impeding the line too much)

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Arles

I'd like to see how the Wendy's situation started when the cops arrived. If the guy was drunk and sleeping in a car, I'm betting there was a much easier way for two cops to evaluate, book him and remove his vehicle without ending up in a scrum on the parking lot asphalt.

I think the biggest issue in these situations is how they are started by cops. If you come in with a plan and to simply evaluate/apprehend/book and not antagonize - a lot of this could be avoided. My main frustration isn't in the ending of it after the guy stole the taser an ran (although it is unfortunate) - it is that two cops escalated the situation to get to that point. Again, I could be wrong given I haven't seen the start of the video, but that is my impression given how the rest was handled.

I saw the body cam where the officers got him to drive to a regular parking spot. They talked some (don't know about what), neither party seemed obviously agitated. It was when a cop was cuffing him behind his back when he tried to escape and they landed on the ground. The body cam fell on the ground then.

I doubt the cop is going to be found of wrongful death. The fired cop is probably going to win a nice lawsuit. The question is why did they feel the need to cuff the guy (outstanding warrant, wanted felon etc.) and/or why did the guy try to escape.

[Arles]

Yeah, after watching the video, it's hard to be too tough on the cops. They didn't appear aggressive and had a reasonable discussion. Looks like the guy freaked out and panicked. You'd still like to think there's a way to end this without shots fired, but Brooks did just about everything you can do wrong after the cuffing process started. This is a shame on all levels - I'm not sure what the answer is.

[booradley]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

You mean crimes where arrests were made. We can see from the drug war that blacks and Latinos (blacks at a higher rate than Latinos) are arrested at far higher rates for drug crimes than whites, even though whites and blacks & Latinos do and sell drugs at the same rates (from SAMHSA analysis). And blacks get the highest criminal terms for the same offenses.

The war on marijuana is racist. So is the rest of the war on drugs. - Vox




Right, they show the level of systemic racism.

I'll echo JPhillips, if you don't want to accept the racial disparity in policing, convictions, sentencing then we don't have enough agreement to have any discussion this matter. And I'll just leave it as, yes, I think it's obvious that this had to do with race, and if he was white, he'd likely be alive. And to believe otherwise is "unworthy of the debate at hand"

Well, I was interested until the final paragraph. Then came the hackneyed trope "If you don't accept my POV then you're totally wrong." So you're right. Nothing to debate here since you aren't willing to be an honest participant.

[tarcone]

A 25 year old woman was shot to death by a Missouri Highway patrolman for not being compliant.

Sedalia: Missouri deputy fatally shoots woman during traffic stop | ksdk.com

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I wonder if the Wendy's people thought to knock on his car window and ask him to move his car to a parking spot if he was in the middle of the drive through lane (though from the video it didn't seem like he was impeding the line too much)

Why should they?

There are only 2 likely scenarios, either he is drunk and passed out, or he is in distress, neither of which are the responsibility of someone making $9/hour at Wendys.

The end is tragic, but lets not lose sight of the fact that a series of horrible choices are what got us here. The Wendys people calling the cops aren't one of them. If my kids was in that situation at work the exact thing I would tell them to do is call the police.

Suggesting the Wendys employees have any culpability in this is Monday morning quarterbacking at its finest.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Now check the percentages and get back to us.

Interestingly I showed some studies on that matter and did get back to you. That post was ignored. Would someone else posting similar information be better? (for reference, here's what I posted nearly two weeks ago):

Originally Posted by me

my point wasn't to ignore those percentages, but I would say that the current atmosphere and way this is discussed, rhetoric in this thread etc., you'd think the disparity was several orders of magnitude larger than it is, more like 20, 30, 50 or more times the incidence for other races. Additionally, study after study after study has found that such percentages (in shootings and otherwhise) don't necessarily point to inherent racism by police. And by the way, the reverse percentages are even worse: the percentage of those who kill the police find blacks over-representing their population seven-fold. See:

** 2016 study by black Harvard economist Roland Fryer, along with another in 2014 by Washington State University, both found that police were less likely to shoot a black suspect than one of other races.

** As relating to driving while black, the Obama administration's DOJ - not some right-wing president, a conservative think-tank, some attack group or Trump or whatever - found that in 75% of traffic stops involving blacks the blacks themselves said there was a good reason they were pulled over. The DOJ concluded that increased incidence of blacks being stopped, which is absolutely a real reality, resulted from differences in driving patterns, rates of offending, and exposure to police. Not from police treating them differently. Crimonologists, not conservative ones, have found similarly going back decades.

One can go on and on with this kind of thing relating to sentencing issues etc. I do absolutely believe there are issues to be resolved here, but they simply are not of the magnitude that is generally being described which is why I call this a police violence issue. The source is primarily economic, largely because of redlining and other historic racist policies that have led to inequity, and I favor moderate forms of reparations etc. to help address that and try to stem the tide of the tragic increased levels of crime, family breakdown, etc. that are evident in the black community. I'm for resolving what facts indicate are the real problems IMO.

I'll just add to this yet another study, 2015 by MSU/MD, that found thusly:

Our data show that the rate of crime by each racial group correlates with the likelihood of citizens from that racial group being shot. ... It is the best predictor we have of fatal police shootings.

The study also found that 90% of citizens shot by police were armed, and 90-95% were actively attacking police or other citizens at the time. That means another 5-10% that are a major, unacceptable problem. I don't gloss over that. But let's have some perspective here.

Then we have the assertion that the fact of more violent crime being committed by blacks is a manifestation of systemic racism. Um, no. Now ISsidiqui rightly points out that the sourced table by booradley only describes arrests. We could try this one on for size , which is about offenses not arrests and indicates that homicide is committed at grossly disproporionately high rates by blacks. Even if you assume that none of the nearly one-third of all homicides comitted by those of unknown race were perpetrated by blacks, which of course would intentionally understate the issue, they would still be responsible for three times more murders than their population share.

Some of this is impacted by systemic and historic racism. For generations drug offenses (as noted) have been overpoliced in black communities while violent crime has been underpoliced. This does contribute to distrust of the police and revenge killings instead of relying on justice, exacerbating the problem. All of that is real and important. At the same time, if the police ignore crime in black communities, that's racist because they aren't giving those communities the help they are entitled to as citizens. If they police those areas more heavily because there is more crime there, more interactions with those citizens will occur, leading to an inevitable uptick in problematic altercations arising. This leaves a situation where there is no conceivable avenue of police action or inaction that does not lead to racially disparate outcomes.

It also must be said that profiling is clearly wrong - but the reverse is also wrong. That is, just as prejudging someone based on their race is unacceptable, so to is prejudging someone because they are wearing a police uniform. Every year from 2015 to 2018 at least 150 police were killed. Per 10k officers, that's 2.15 to 2.2 deaths. The best FBI studies say the rate of black perpetrators among these is in the low-40s percent wise, so we'll call that about 0.85 of every 10k officers is killed annually by a black citizen. Meanwhile in the worst years, about 0.07 blacks out of 10k are killed by a police officer (of any race), and it's usually somewhat lower. So statistically speaking, police officers are at least 12 times more justified in being afraid of being killed by a black citizen than the other way around.

Which leads me back to my original, ignored point. Let's focus on how to improve the lives of those in the black community. But let's do it on a facts-based, not rhetoric-based manner. The #1 cause of death for black men 18-34 is homicide by other blacks. That is not true for any other group. Solving THAT is where the path towards peace must begin. You could eliminate every vestige of police violence tomorrow and it wouldn't even move the needle; it's like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Fix the gaping hole in the hull that is sinking the whole ship.

[booradley]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Interestingly I showed some studies on that matter and did get back to you. That post was ignored. Would someone else posting similar information be better? (for reference, here's what I posted nearly two weeks ago):



I'll just add to this yet another study, 2015 by MSU/MD, that found thusly:



The study also found that 90% of citizens shot by police were armed, and 90-95% were actively attacking police or other citizens at the time. That means another 5-10% that are a major, unacceptable problem. I don't gloss over that. But let's have some perspective here.

Then we have the assertion that the fact of more violent crime being committed by blacks is a manifestation of systemic racism. Um, no. Now ISsidiqui rightly points out that the sourced table by booradley only describes arrests. We could try this one on for size , which is about offenses not arrests and indicates that homicide is committed at grossly disproporionately high rates by blacks. Even if you assume that none of the nearly one-third of all homicides comitted by those of unknown race were perpetrated by blacks, which of course would intentionally understate the issue, they would still be responsible for three times more murders than their population share.

Some of this is impacted by systemic and historic racism. For generations drug offenses (as noted) have been overpoliced in black communities while violent crime has been underpoliced. This does contribute to distrust of the police and revenge killings instead of relying on justice, exacerbating the problem. All of that is real and important. At the same time, if the police ignore crime in black communities, that's racist because they aren't giving those communities the help they are entitled to as citizens. If they police those areas more heavily because there is more crime there, more interactions with those citizens will occur, leading to an inevitable uptick in problematic altercations arising. This leaves a situation where there is no conceivable avenue of police action or inaction that does not lead to racially disparate outcomes.

It also must be said that profiling is clearly wrong - but the reverse is also wrong. That is, just as prejudging someone based on their race is unacceptable, so to is prejudging someone because they are wearing a police uniform. Every year from 2015 to 2018 at least 150 police were killed. Per 10k officers, that's 2.15 to 2.2 deaths. The best FBI studies say the rate of black perpetrators among these is in the low-40s percent wise, so we'll call that about 0.85 of every 10k officers is killed annually by a black citizen. Meanwhile in the worst years, about 0.07 blacks out of 10k are killed by a police officer (of any race), and it's usually somewhat lower. So statistically speaking, police officers are at least 12 times more justified in being afraid of being killed by a black citizen than the other way around.

Which leads me back to my original, ignored point. Let's focus on how to improve the lives of those in the black community. But let's do it on a facts-based, not rhetoric-based manner. The #1 cause of death for black men 18-34 is homicide by other blacks. That is not true for any other group. Solving THAT is where the path towards peace must begin. You could eliminate every vestige of police violence tomorrow and it wouldn't even move the needle; it's like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Fix the gaping hole in the hull that is sinking the whole ship.

I read it, and didn't respond because the numbers speak for themselves. It was a solid post.

[Jukeman]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Interestingly I showed some studies on that matter and did get back to you. That post was ignored. Would someone else posting similar information be better? (for reference, here's what I posted nearly two weeks ago):



I'll just add to this yet another study, 2015 by MSU/MD, that found thusly:



The study also found that 90% of citizens shot by police were armed, and 90-95% were actively attacking police or other citizens at the time. That means another 5-10% that are a major, unacceptable problem. I don't gloss over that. But let's have some perspective here.

Then we have the assertion that the fact of more violent crime being committed by blacks is a manifestation of systemic racism. Um, no. Now ISsidiqui rightly points out that the sourced table by booradley only describes arrests. We could try this one on for size , which is about offenses not arrests and indicates that homicide is committed at grossly disproporionately high rates by blacks. Even if you assume that none of the nearly one-third of all homicides comitted by those of unknown race were perpetrated by blacks, which of course would intentionally understate the issue, they would still be responsible for three times more murders than their population share.

Some of this is impacted by systemic and historic racism. For generations drug offenses (as noted) have been overpoliced in black communities while violent crime has been underpoliced. This does contribute to distrust of the police and revenge killings instead of relying on justice, exacerbating the problem. All of that is real and important. At the same time, if the police ignore crime in black communities, that's racist because they aren't giving those communities the help they are entitled to as citizens. If they police those areas more heavily because there is more crime there, more interactions with those citizens will occur, leading to an inevitable uptick in problematic altercations arising. This leaves a situation where there is no conceivable avenue of police action or inaction that does not lead to racially disparate outcomes.

It also must be said that profiling is clearly wrong - but the reverse is also wrong. That is, just as prejudging someone based on their race is unacceptable, so to is prejudging someone because they are wearing a police uniform. Every year from 2015 to 2018 at least 150 police were killed. Per 10k officers, that's 2.15 to 2.2 deaths. The best FBI studies say the rate of black perpetrators among these is in the low-40s percent wise, so we'll call that about 0.85 of every 10k officers is killed annually by a black citizen. Meanwhile in the worst years, about 0.07 blacks out of 10k are killed by a police officer (of any race), and it's usually somewhat lower. So statistically speaking, police officers are at least 12 times more justified in being afraid of being killed by a black citizen than the other way around.

Which leads me back to my original, ignored point. Let's focus on how to improve the lives of those in the black community. But let's do it on a facts-based, not rhetoric-based manner. The #1 cause of death for black men 18-34 is homicide by other blacks. That is not true for any other group. Solving THAT is where the path towards peace must begin. You could eliminate every vestige of police violence tomorrow and it wouldn't even move the needle; it's like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Fix the gaping hole in the hull that is sinking the whole ship.

Links to source?

[Brian Swartz]

I gave one link, which other one(s) are you looking for?

[thesloppy]

I think, given the past couple weeks, practically everybody reasonable thinks America could use some kind of police reforms and a general reduction in use-of-deadly-force. There is ample evidence of systemic racism not just in policing, but in every part of the justice system & prison industry. White supremacist groups & police organizations are explicitly intertwined throughout American history including today. The stream of visual evidence displaying disproportionate police brutality to blacks has been constant for literally my entire life.

Why do so many folks think everyone else needs to be reminded about black-on-black crime right now?

[Butter]

I recommend reading this thread about black-on-black crime. Not sure if already posted.

I had a professor who always talked about "the necessity of existence." Basically, some things should be created just so that thing will exist in the world.

So here's a thread to RT anytime some1 responds to #BlackLivesMatter with "but black on black crime" like this yahoo. pic.twitter.com/jfOtq9CtsW

— michaelharriot (@michaelharriot) June 4, 2020

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

Why do so many folks think everyone else needs to be reminded about black-on-black crime right now?

Because that's a leading cause of deaths of younger blacks in America? And you'd think a movement called "Black Lives Matter" would be concerned about such a thing.

[Jukeman]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

I gave one link, which other one(s) are you looking for?

Of the studies that were mentioned.

The only link is some stats from 2017.

[Radii]

You want to talk about solving all of the problems in the United States? Lets make another thread. Institutional racism actively limits equal black access to home ownership, eductional opportunities, in receiving loan opportunities to start businesses, in healthcare, and obviously in the justice system via policing practices, the school to prison pipeline with for-profit prisons, the drug war, bail policies, and the protection of police who commit acts of criminal violence against members of black communities. So if you guys are up for solving black on black crime, make another thread and lets go. I'm in.


But in this thread, I'd like to point out that references to stats of black on black crime is pretty much point #1 made as a distraction tactic to limit and prevent discussion and activism that could lead to real change when it comes to police brutality. White politicians do it, the media does it and a lot of us do it to. So we really, very seriously, need to call this tactic out when we see it in a thread dedicated to police violence against black people and the fact that the police are protected at every level of the justice system to be allowed to kill black people with impunity.


So please, before this turns into 10 pages of defining "institutional racism" with 25 links to studies that we all prefer for our argument about general crime in America, recognize that what you're actively participating in by doing so is the distraction tactic used so that cops can continue to get away with killing black people for free for another 5 years before we care again. Because fixing that problem is going to expose other issues of racism and make a lot of white people uncomfortable about other things, and a lot of us can't handle it, so we deflect.

One of their often used talking points is black-on-black crime. If we were playing a game of spades, this would be their big joker, the ultimate winning play. But, it’s just misdirection. A verbal sleight of hand used to distract from the issues, or to derail the conversation.

You've all heard it, some of you have said it. It usually goes something like this: "Police? Why aren't we talking about black-on-black crime, that’s the real problem."

Want to know why no one talks about it? Because you're not actually interested. The reality is black activists address crime within itself all the time. Others only seem to want to address it when we talk about crimes being committed against us, by uniformed officers. If you truly cared, you would be talking along with us instead of at us.

tl;dr - people that bring up black on black crime when discussing police brutality typically do it because talking about and potentially addressing the issue of the police getting away with murder at a systemic level is uncomfortable and makes a lot of white people feel vulnerable. Or because the white people are racist and need to do evrything they can to make sure that remains okay.

[Brian Swartz]

I'll just point out a few representative distortions and straw men in that thread:

** Points out that a vanishingly small percentage of all people actually commit murders. True. Also irrelevant. The point is what the source is of most black people getting killed.

** Assumes that anyone bring it up is only deflecting. No, rational people can walk, talk, and chew gum at the same time. Similarly, I've been repetitively clear in this thread that police violence is a problem and discussing possible reforms & solutions, while at the same time advocating for perspective on the relative importance and scale of that problem.

** Textbook moving-the-goalposts when talking about violent victimization rates while implying he's talking about murders (the former also includes rape, aggravated assault, assault, etc). Since there are far more of the lesser crimes which occur, and since they are also more evenly distributed between racial groups, this conveniently buries and distorts the distinction.

** Then compares the % of blacks killed by blacks to the % of whites killed by whites (which are similar) without reference to the main point, which is that blacks simply kill each other at a much higher population-adjusted rate. At no point was anyone ever arguing that most whites aren't also killed by whites.

I could go on, but it's fairly boring to do so. It's not hard to see when someone is demonstrating how easy it is to distort numbers.

[NobodyHere]

Or like most intelligent people (I'm not including myself here) we can say that police brutality and intra-racial homicides are both a problem in this country?

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Radii

in this thread, I'd like to point out that references to stats of black on black crime is pretty much point #1 made as a distraction tactic to limit and prevent discussion and activism that could lead to real change when it comes to police brutality. White politicians do it, the media does it and a lot of us do it to. So we really, very seriously, need to call this tactic out when we see it in a thread dedicated to police violence against black people and the fact that the police are protected at every level of the justice system to be allowed to kill black people with impunity.

Except it's explicitly not. I've specifically talked, a lot, in this thread about how to address the police violence problem. I've openly asked for opinions from others on how to do so, and said what I think about some of those suggestions including agreeing with concepts like demilitarization, increased training, asset forfeiture, qualified immunity ... If it becomes taboo to discuss what the actual facts are about an issue, then where we are is in a position of simply dismissing the truth in order to advocate for whatever pet cause we might have.

If that's where we are, there's no point in debating anything.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

I'll just point out a few representative distortions and straw men in that thread:

** Points out that a vanishingly small percentage of all people actually commit murders. True. Also irrelevant. The point is what the source is of most black people getting killed.

** Assumes that anyone bring it up is only deflecting. No, rational people can walk, talk, and chew gum at the same time. Similarly, I've been repetitively clear in this thread that police violence is a problem and discussing possible reforms & solutions, while at the same time advocating for perspective on the relative importance and scale of that problem.

** Textbook moving-the-goalposts when talking about violent victimization rates while implying he's talking about murders (the former also includes rape, aggravated assault, assault, etc). Since there are far more of the lesser crimes which occur, and since they are also more evenly distributed between racial groups, this conveniently buries and distorts the distinction.

** Then compares the % of blacks killed by blacks to the % of whites killed by whites (which are similar) without reference to the main point, which is that blacks simply kill each other at a much higher population-adjusted rate. At no point was anyone ever arguing that most whites aren't also killed by whites.

I could go on, but it's fairly boring to do so. It's not hard to see when someone is demonstrating how easy it is to distort numbers.

Let me know when you are called a racist and productive conversation ends. Start another thread and I'll have a fact-based discussion with you.

But honestly, you have to be willing to define what "systemic racism" is (maybe a couple links) first otherwise we'd be talking past each other

[Radii]

Other ways that racists and people in power try to distract and deflect from problems involving police brutality:


1) Digging up the criminal record of the murdered black person, even when the murder had nothing to do with any of those issues, and nothing that the black person did deserved an execution - especially at the hands of a police officer unliaterally making that decision.

2) "But what about black on black crime. If black people really cared they'd focus on that". Spoiler alert: black people DO care, and they do focus on that, all the time. Your racist ass is just joining the conversation in a moment when that's not the problem or the issue, but the murder of black people by white police is instead the issue. If you really care then you'll stay involved 24/7/365 and be a part of trying to improve black communities too.

3) Look at this black police officer that got killed (a retired black police officer - David Dorn - during the George Floyd protests) by other black people during looting. Why isn't BLM talking about that? If they really cared they'd give that attention. Answer: because the problem at hand is white police GETTING AWAY WITH and being institutionally protected when they kill black people. The people that killed David Dorn aren't getting away with it, no one is protecting them. I should go back in this thread and see if any of you used this one.


4) Look at this conservative black person repeating all of the talking points. A black person (Candace Owens in this case) doesn't believe racism exists and is conveniently telling me all the same thing that racists do to make me feel better. I think the only reply to this is "fuck you"



So seriously, keep an eye out for this shit. White cops kill black people and the system of policing and justice in the United States of America protects these cops. The way to fix this hurts white people's power and ability to oppress others from top to bottom, so people made uncomfortable by this idea are going to deflect. Call it out, do not let it derail. In our happy little message board, if you really want to take on an issue, do it in another thread.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

the main point, which is that blacks simply kill each other

I'm going to boil down one side's argument to let the rest of you figure out if it's worth continuing the discussion.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Except it's explicitly not. I've specifically talked, a lot, in this thread about how to address the police violence problem. I've openly asked for opinions from others on how to do so, and said what I think about some of those suggestions including agreeing with concepts like demilitarization, increased training, asset forfeiture, qualified immunity ... If it becomes taboo to discuss what the actual facts are about an issue, then where we are is in a position of simply dismissing the truth in order to advocate for whatever pet cause we might have.

If that's where we are, there's no point in debating anything.

So start another thread. I didn't say don't debate.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

I'm going to boil down one side's argument to let the rest of you figure out if it's worth continuing the discussion.

Except of course that this is not at all a reasonable synopsis of the arguments I've made in this thread.

[Brian Swartz]

Re: the start another thread thing, I maintain that what I've said is relevant as to the scale of the problem. That is, I still believe, and believe it is based on the best data I know of, that the arguments I've made are important as they relate to how much of the police violence issue is based on racism (some, but not nearly as much as most in this thread & the media have asserted). I.e., I don't see how you can possibly talk about what the proper role of police in America is or isn't without talking about how crime rates vary in various communities and situations. A proper diagnosis of any problem must be completed before a solution can be intelligently contemplated.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Radii

Other ways that racists and people in power try to distract and deflect from problems involving police brutality:


1) Digging up the criminal record of the murdered black person, even when the murder had nothing to do with any of those issues, and nothing that the black person did deserved an execution - especially at the hands of a police officer unliaterally making that decision.

2) "But what about black on black crime. If black people really cared they'd focus on that". Spoiler alert: black people DO care, and they do focus on that, all the time. Your racist ass is just joining the conversation in a moment when that's not the problem or the issue, but the murder of black people by white police is instead the issue. If you really care then you'll stay involved 24/7/365 and be a part of trying to improve black communities too.

3) Look at this black police officer that got killed (a retired black police officer - David Dorn - during the George Floyd protests) by other black people during looting. Why isn't BLM talking about that? If they really cared they'd give that attention. Answer: because the problem at hand is white police GETTING AWAY WITH and being institutionally protected when they kill black people. The people that killed David Dorn aren't getting away with it, no one is protecting them. I should go back in this thread and see if any of you used this one.


4) Look at this conservative black person repeating all of the talking points. A black person (Candace Owens in this case) doesn't believe racism exists and is conveniently telling me all the same thing that racists do to make me feel better. I think the only reply to this is "fuck you"



So seriously, keep an eye out for this shit. White cops kill black people and the system of policing and justice in the United States of America protects these cops. The way to fix this hurts white people's power and ability to oppress others from top to bottom, so people made uncomfortable by this idea are going to deflect. Call it out, do not let it derail. In our happy little message board, if you really want to take on an issue, do it in another thread.

2) I'm not seeing any mass riots/protests about black on black crime despite the fact that it is a larger killer of black Americans.

3) The cop behind the George Floyd murder is behind bars and awaiting trial for murder

4) They have the right to their opinion. Even if it contrasts yours.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Because that's a leading cause of deaths of younger blacks in America? And you'd think a movement called "Black Lives Matter" would be concerned about such a thing.

Why do you think they aren't? As soon as 'black-on-black crime' elects public leadership, has a union, collects a publicly funded paycheck from a government organization and takes a collective oath to protect & serve the folks they are killing, then I imagine they will become a primary focus of organized efforts like BLM.

Expecting people to protest against black-on-black crime is fundamentally warped. Who do you expect would be effected by & implement the changes demanded by such a protest? The black-on-black crime board?

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Jukeman

Of the studies that were mentioned.

The only link is some stats from 2017.

Most, including the 2017 FBI table, is a simple google search away. Having said that:

Washington State study by Lois James

2016 Harvard study by Roland Fryer

Obama NIJ 2013 study of traffic stops

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

Why do you think they aren't? As soon as 'black-on-black crime' elects public leadership, has a union, collects a publicly funded paycheck from a government organization and takes a collective oath to protect & serve the folks they are killing, than I imagine they will become a primary focus.

Why do I think they aren't? Because I don't see any major protests/riots about the issue.

Maybe the media just isn't covering it.

[Radii]

To actually contribute something useful to the topic at hand and to aggressively and desperately try to un-derail this, I'm not sure how many are aware but in the last couple weeks in the San Bernadino, CA area, two black men have been found dead hanging from trees. In the first instance police said there was no sign of a struggle near the scene so there is no suspicion of foul play, and they didn't get around to an autopsy for 12 days (Malcolm Harsch, Victorville, CA).


Wednesday of this week, in Palmdale, CA a black man named Robert Fuller was found hanging from a tree near City Hall. Before an investigation was completed (barely even started) and before an autopsy this was described as a probable suicide.

I'm not saying there's no way that two black men hung themselves in this fashion. It is absolutely possible. But I will say that the optics of "its probably a suicide" before an autopsy of a black man found hanging at city hall in the middle of large scale racial conflict is slightly problematic and there better be serious transparency and scrutiny here.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

2) I'm not seeing any mass riots/protests about black on black crime despite the fact that it is a larger killer of black Americans.

Did you bother to read Harriot's Twitter thread?

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

3) The cop behind the George Floyd murder is behind bars and awaiting trial for murder

And wouldn't have been without a video and/or an enormous backlash. What about all the others? "Well, we've made our example, we're all good here now I guess."

4) They have the right to their opinion. Even if it contrasts yours.

And he has the right to hammer on you when it's dreadfully wrong.

[Brian Swartz]

One more observation: who, anywhere in this thread, on TV, on radio, in the Minneapolis PD/justice system etc. is saying 'Chauvin is getting a bad rap and doesn't belong in jail' or that he was justified or whatever.

I think a couple posters in this thread are too forgiving on police violence and have said so multiple times, but nobody is sticking up for Chauvin. Everybody I have literally heard anywhere on any media outlet at any time since Floyd was killed says he belongs arrested, charged, and convicted of some form of at the very least manslaughter and most say murder. Nobody is saying this is fine.

Some posts give the impression that half the country is totally fine with what he did. The only poll I can find say 78% of Americans (which isn't nearly enough) agree with him being arrested.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Did you bother to read Harriot's Twitter thread?



And wouldn't have been without a video and/or an enormous backlash. What about all the others? "Well, we've made our example, we're all good here now I guess."



And he has the right to hammer on you when it's dreadfully wrong.

1) No, can you give a link? ETA: I will say I'm suspicious of anything on Twitter/Facebook.

2) The charges came before most of the riots/protests happened, so yes

3) True

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Why do I think they aren't? Because I don't see any major protests/riots about the issue.

Maybe the media just isn't covering it.

Note that protesting actual entities is proving to result in real, significant changes to government (& corporate) policing policies that I would've thought literally impossible just months ago.

What on earth do you think protesting the formless, leaderless, entirely unorganized, black-on-black crime would do? I guess they could start protesting & rioting for greater gun control but I'm guessing that's not quite what folks in here are talking about.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

Note that protesting actual entities is proving to result in real, significant changes to government (& corporate) policing policies that I would've thought literally impossible months ago.

What on earth do you think protesting formless black-on-black crime would do?

Maybe some changes that you would've thought impossible months ago?

[Brian Swartz]

@NobodyHere: The Twitter thing they are talking about is from Butter's post near the top of this page. They were good enough to link it. What I've already said about it is all I can usefully say.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

1) No, can you give a link? ETA: I will say I'm suspicious of anything on Twitter/Facebook.

Originally Posted by Butter

I recommend reading this thread about black-on-black crime. Not sure if already posted.

I had a professor who always talked about "the necessity of existence." Basically, some things should be created just so that thing will exist in the world.

So here's a thread to RT anytime some1 responds to #BlackLivesMatter with "but black on black crime" like this yahoo. pic.twitter.com/jfOtq9CtsW

— michaelharriot (@michaelharriot) June 4, 2020

The roll-up is probably easier to read through: Thread by @michaelharriot: I had a professor who always talked about "the necessity of existence." Basically, some things should be created just so that thing will exi…

Harriot is an author/journalist for The Root.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Radii

I will say that the optics of "its probably a suicide" before an autopsy of a black man found hanging at city hall in the middle of large scale racial conflict is slightly problematic and there better be serious transparency and scrutiny here.

I will contribute as much as I can by saying I fully endorse said transparency and scrutiny, and earnestly desire to see a full accounting of such investigations.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Maybe some changes that you would've thought impossible months ago?

Again, you keep entirely ignoring the crucial fact that there is no leadership or organization to protest against. Who would implement these changes?

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

I will contribute as much as I can by saying I fully endorse said transparency and scrutiny, and earnestly desire to see a full accounting of such investigations.

ditto

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

The roll-up is probably easier to read through: Thread by @michaelharriot: I had a professor who always talked about "the necessity of existence." Basically, some things should be created just so that thing will exi…

Harriot is an author/journalist for The Root.

Sorry he lost me at "Sr. Writer at The Root | The Blacker the Content the Sweeter the Truth, board-certified Wypipologist, master race-baiter. His pen is mightier than your sword. Last real Negus alive"

Not sure why I should take this account seriously.

[cuervo72]

"I'm not going to consider words from a black man who might challenge my opinions."

[NobodyHere]

Quite the straw-man you built there

[cuervo72]

Why? You literally just said that you weren't going to take his account, and thus I assume what he has to say, seriously. While quoting how he describes himself. What is it about his byline that put you off?

[Radii]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Sorry he lost me at "Sr. Writer at The Root | The Blacker the Content the Sweeter the Truth, board-certified Wypipologist, master race-baiter. His pen is mightier than your sword. Last real Negus alive"

Not sure why I should take this account seriously.

Are you saying that you don't believe the studies and research cited and therefore discount the argument?

Or are you saying that a black man with undergrad degrees in Mass communication and Media Studies and a masters degree in International Business who has for over 15 years been an author of books regarding race in america and who has been published in black publications for years isn't qualified to speak on black issues or make an argument about black crime because you are personally uncomfortable that he chooses to self identify and describe himself in ways that affirm himself as a black man and it makes you uncomfortable because it doesn't conform to acceptable ways that black people are allowed to speak if they want white people to take them seriously?



I believe this is called tone policing, and it is a common problem that is discussed when talking about white supremacy and institutional racism and the ways that the average white person is complicit in supporting and continuing these institutions. In this case, by using bias to set unreasonable standards and to discount arguments made by intelligent people but that may be done so in ways that make you uncomfortable, especially when the argument itself is harder to tear apart.

It is truly often not really a conscious behavior, and one of the greatest things that could come out of the current series of Black Lives Matter protests and this movement for equality and tearing down institutional racism is that it gives all of us who are NOT affected by this an opportunity to see these problems and to choose to educate ourselves. Even the most "woke" white liberal likely does this and countless other things with some frequency.

It is a good bit more overtly racist to just call it out so openly and aggressively, but it still provides a great opportunity for self improvement and education.

[Arles]

I'm trying to think of a way to differentiate the "black on black" murder issue and the "cops killing black men" issue. The best example I can come up with involves poverty. Let's say we have two situations:
1. Single mothers in poverty in poorer areas that are forced to collect welfare because they have 2-3 kids and can't provide on a low-paying hourly job.
2. A family that fosters 8-10 underprivileged kids and treats them poorly solely to collect federal assistance.

Now, item #1 is much more prevalent in society and it is a problem. However, without massive changes to our economic system, there is very little we can do to completely correct it. For item 2, it involves much fewer cases - but they are something we can setup systems for to try to prevent and be more vigilant on. That's how I look at Black on Black murder (#1) and Police killings of black men (#2). There's one that we should be able to take steps to prevent as a society ...