Armed "Militia" takes over wildlife refuge outpost

[Easy Mac]

Well, this will be fun
Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters | OregonLive.com

[Edward64]

Uh oh. Won't end well.

[PilotMan]

I really, really, really want one of the Rep nominees to go up there and campaign with these guys, ala Huckabee and the Kentucky County Clerk.

They sound like a bunch of insurgents that need to be taught an old lesson about how the government handles insurgents.

[Dutch]

They sound like a bunch of insurgents that need to be taught an old lesson about how the government handles insurgents.

Oh, they'll get that lesson. No worries there.

[whomario]

Did i read that right, that the lightning rod in question was actually not really protesting his having to go to prison ? (and since none of the articles i read on this explains it: Why are they to go to prison, exactly ?)

also: remind me again when/where this sort of thing happened again ? Sounds awfully familiar (and i mean sth similar somewhere "in the woods" and not Waco or sth), but might be it happened in a novel i read back when ...

[claphamsa]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Oh, they'll get that lesson. No worries there.

last time they did this nothing happened...

[HerRealName]

Originally Posted by whomario

Did i read that right, that the lightning rod in question was actually not really protesting his having to go to prison ? (and since none of the articles i read on this explains it: Why are they to go to prison, exactly ?)

also: remind me again when/where this sort of thing happened again ? Sounds awfully familiar (and i mean sth similar somewhere "in the woods" and not Waco or sth), but might be it happened in a novel i read back when ...

They were convicted of arson. Seems mainly like they were starting fires to hide evidence of elk poaching. Sometimes burning hundreds of acres and endangering firefighters already in the area. True patriots.

Edit: From this article it looks like they were poaching deer instead.

http://www.justice.gov/usao-or/pr/ea...e-years-prison

[panerd]

Can't wait for this thread so I can see the Michael Brown FOFC posters talk about the rule of law and supporting police and vice versa.

[HerRealName]

Originally Posted by panerd

Can't wait for this thread so I can see the Michael Brown FOFC posters talk about the rule of law and supporting police and vice versa.

False equivalence is the best equivalence.

[JPhillips]

I can't wait until Fox starts asking white people to condemn these actions.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Uh oh. Won't end well.

Sure it will. No one will get shot, no one will get arrested, it will all get blown over.

Meanwhile, some kid on a swing minding his busniess will get shot and killed with no provocation.

[Ben E Lou]

In nearly all cases of extremism, I can at least understand where they're coming from, what their grievances are, why they're angry, and why the anger is enough to escalate to life/death levels. I read this story and I'm mainly left with a big, fat, "huh???"

[JPhillips]

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

In nearly all cases of extremism, I can at least understand where they're coming from, what their grievances are, why they're angry, and why the anger is enough to escalate to life/death levels. I read this story and I'm mainly left with a big, fat, "huh???"

They've worked it up in their heads, along with the tea party movement in general, that they are the true champions of liberty and that the tyranny of government oppression, whatever that means here in the US, must be stopped.

They've essentially conquered territory, declared a caliphate, and encouraged others to join them. It's our very own, homegrown, ISIS group. Yippee.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I just watched every minute of that. Twice. And I'm left with...

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

In nearly all cases of extremism, I can at least understand where they're coming from, what their grievances are, why they're angry, and why the anger is enough to escalate to life/death levels. I read this story watch that video and I'm mainly left with a big, fat, "huh???"

[JPhillips]

I feel for the guy's family. He sees this as so important he left them alone for the holidays and he certainly seems like he's looking for a violent resolution to the event. He could do a lot more good staying at home and helping his daughters and wife.

[RainMaker]

Nothing will happen because for some reason our government is afraid of confronting these whackjobs.

[Abe Sargent]

Thanks wikipedia


Bundy standoff - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[JPhillips]

I'm opposed to escalating the violence. If people start shooting that will put a lot of law enforcement in the line of fire. Waiting for this to die down doesn't hurt much of anything and discredits their "cause" far better than a Waco type ending.

[PilotMan]

I'm not opposed to violence. There's a point where waiting for it to die down is seen more as passive acceptance and it gives the movement a toehold in the area and in society in general. Crush it out right now and dare them to try it again. A continued attitude of patience will only embolden them.

[Dutch]

They are attempting to turn a small local issue into a national crisis. It's simply not going to work. The best they can hope for is a little media sensationalism. They should get that...but that's it.

[JPhillips]

What do you think attracts more people, fighting a violent government or camping through winter in a nature refuge?

[PilotMan]

They and everyone with them already believe that they are fighting the government, violent or not. The more time they have to hold, the more that it looks like nothing is being done, the more time they have to draw national attention and potentially anyone else dumb enough to join them.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

They and everyone with them already believe that they are fighting the government, violent or not. The more time they have to hold, the more that it looks like nothing is being done, the more time they have to draw national attention and potentially anyone else dumb enough to join them.

Would they though? Seems like for most of us, it'd be a bunch of dudes camping out in the woods in Oregon for some vague "cause," and the media would lose interest because stories about it wouldn't generate clicks. That said, I do have some concerns about the principle of letting people take over government-owner property without any pushback. *shurg*

[whomario]

They are not actually threatening any lives right now, correct ? In the long run i am pretty sure that responding to this with immediate violence without trying their damndest to find other solutions is a sure-fire way to get people on the fringe in the region to get radicalized. Oh, there likely would be more people afraid and "not dare to try again", but it will also create a bunch more radicals. As it always does when you go to a violent solution in any conflict ever. There is always a point where you can not avoid it, but i think it is perfectly valid to still try an alternative strategy at this point.

Too bad this isn´t the Amazon or the Sundarbans, that´d make this die a lot quicker.

[PilotMan]

I guess that depends on the media, what kind of coverage they get, and what kind of social media they use. My facebook hasn't blown up with idiots yet, but this is Kentucky, it's only a matter of time.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Would they though? Seems like for most of us, it'd be a bunch of dudes camping out in the woods in Oregon for some vague "cause," and the media would lose interest because stories about it wouldn't generate clicks. That said, I do have some concerns about the principle of letting people take over government-owner property without any pushback. *shurg*

I think you file charges and arrest them eventually, but I'm generally in favor of de-escaltion when lives are not at immediate risk.

[Abe Sargent]

I agree woith shutting it down now.


For example, the government backed down to the Bundy armed protesters and stopped rounding up his cattle, and ended a federally sanctioned way to stop.. As are result of this "victory against the government" there were shootings and such.


Go in there, and take them down. Don't be pansies.

In the standoff mentioned above, aw enforcement officials weren't wearing protective gear as the ranchers and militia got snipers into position. No gear why? They didn;t want to seem provocative. Go in and just end it.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I think you file charges and arrest them eventually, but I'm generally in favor of de-escaltion when lives are not at immediate risk.

Agreed, need to talk and not escalate, there may not be civilian lives at risk but there may be LEO lives at risk if they go in now.

IMO, there will be a time to take action when talking fails but not immediately.

[JPhillips]

Stay back, cut the power and water and I bet this is over fairly quickly. This isn't a situation where they have months of supplies stockpiled in the building.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Stay back, cut the power and water and I bet this is over fairly quickly. This isn't a situation where they have months of supplies stockpiled in the building.

But they've already said they have supplies and a generator and by their own word are prepared to hold it for "years."

[JPhillips]

I seriously doubt they have even enough supplies to last more than a month. Looking at their social media posts, it's clear they want a violent confrontation.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I think you file charges and arrest them eventually, but I'm generally in favor of de-escaltion when lives are not at immediate risk.

Bingo. The authorities going in with guns blazing just plays into the paranoia of these groups. Cut their power and supplies, wait them out, arrest them and deal with them in the court room. Sure, they'll play up the trials as much as they can, but it will have far less chance of stirring up sympathy than going after them with force. And of course it will be safer for all involved.

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

My big takeaway is I need to change the constitution books I buy for my government class. (It's from the heritage foundation, I like it because it does not give titles or summaries- I make my student do that)

[RainMaker]

For people that seem to hate big government, they love to suck off the teet of it.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Agreed, need to talk and not escalate, there may not be civilian lives at risk but there may be LEO lives at risk if they go in now.

Wait, I thought LEO lives were always at risk?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Wait, I thought LEO lives were always at risk?

How about "there is a higher risk to LEO's getting injured right now"?

[PilotMan]

This is less a job for local law enforcement and more a job for the military.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Edward64

How about "there is a higher risk to LEO's getting injured right now"?

So armed white prepper/militia sorts are more risky than 12yo with toy guns? Huh.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

This is less a job for local law enforcement and more a job for the military.

But yes, I agree with this. Especially if we're talking federal grounds.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

So armed white prepper/militia sorts are more risky than 12yo with toy guns? Huh.

Um ... why don't you take this to another thread?

[cuervo72]

I'll comment where I want, thanks.

[mauchow]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I read the comments on Yahoo!, one that stood out the most was: "If this guy was born in another country he'd be a suicide bomber..."

Pretty accurate.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

I'll comment where I want, thanks.

Of course. Just leave me out of your trolling.

[cuervo72]

I say let them sit there, seize whatever property they have, and blow up their pickup trucks.

[cuervo72]

I don't think it's exactly trolling to point out that a goodly part of the population thinks that law enforcement is a really dangerous job* - to the point that they have near impunity for pulling and discharging their weapons - yet a legitimate threat that emerges can be met with the sentiment of whoa, hey - let's think about this, this might be dangerous. Which of course it is, but it's one of the minority cases where LEO may not hold an edge.


* First, it's consistently ranked behind things like a pilot, or some types of construction worker. Second, they know this is what they are signing up for, yes?

[whomario]

So you are saying that because some Idiot cop/police force in Whereevertown abuses his Power it should be ok to sent some other LEO into an armed confrontation ?

[cuervo72]

No, I said earlier in the thread that I think any response should be a federal one (though I'd also like to point out that military personnel = people, the same as is law enforcement).

This is more a comment on how many are behind LEO banging down doors and busting heads and coming in guns a-blazin' in raids of houses, but aren't so much in cases like this. Which makes me think hey, maybe those other raids aren't quite as dangerous as some want us to believe.

I'll abandon this argument now though as it has strayed from the specific situation.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by whomario

So you are saying that because some Idiot cop/police force in Whereevertown abuses his Power it should be ok to sent some other LEO into an armed confrontation ?

No, he's saying we should ban pickup trucks and/or white people.

[cuervo72]

Taking out their pickup trucks would be hitting them where it hurts. (I learned this from country music.)