Great, now we have Sandy Hook "Truthers"

[EagleFan]

I can't even comprehend how idiotic people can be. To think that there are now people calling the Sandy Hook tragedy a hoax makes me believe that there are people who are truly too stupid to be alive.

Sorry, just wanted to rant.

Wanted to provide a link, spoilered below. Don't even bother going there if this kind of stupidity pisses you off because I am not happy with myself already for clicking the link from another story.

Spoiler

It seems unbelievable, because it is. - Home

[JonInMiddleGA]

Is it? Probably not, too hard to pull off from a practical standpoint.

But the possibility crossed my mind within 48 hours, not long after the anti-gun lobbying started.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

But the possibility crossed my mind within 48 hours, not long after the anti-gun lobbying started.

Seriously?

[aran]

There are some inconsistent stories, and some people who were somehow involved tell inconsistent stories when asked at different times. This does not indicate that a hoax happened. We already know well how unreliable witness testimony is. Memories are constructed, and when you retell a story you tend to fill in blanks that you don't remember so it all joins together into something coherent. Telling a story multiple times mutates it through a one-man telephone effect. Inconsistencies so derived do not at all indicate there was a hoax, just that there are some confused witnesses.

The media also tends to report before they can confirm and corroborate, which gives the impression that they're "changing the story" when actually they didn't know the story to begin with.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Is it? Probably not, too hard to pull off from a practical standpoint.

But the possibility crossed my mind within 48 hours, not long after the anti-gun lobbying started.

Why am I not surprised?

[panerd]

It's the Internet are you really shocked? Just ignore it or you risk giving it any legitimacy.

[CraigSca]

I am definitely not a "truther" as I generally ignore crap like this, nor do I believe this was a hoax. I tend to run along the lines of aran's post above. I will say, however, that I did find the father's press conference odd - walking up to the podium with a smile on his face and then immediately going into "losing my mind with grief" mode once that conference started. Mind you, it could all be trickery with editing, but it seemed out of place.

Again, I don't believe the government had anything to do with this, and I'm also one to to ask who can quantify how a person should or should not act after a tragedy such as this. That being said, the father's reaction seemed completely out of place.

Edit: I thought the link above was to a specific 30 minute video that's been floating around Facebook. Was going to queue the time stamp of the father's press conference. Didn't realize the link was to an actual site devoted to this garbage, so there you go,

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by aran

There are some inconsistent stories, and some people who were somehow involved tell inconsistent stories when asked at different times. This does not indicate that a hoax happened. We already know well how unreliable witness testimony is. Memories are constructed, and when you retell a story you tend to fill in blanks that you don't remember so it all joins together into something coherent. Telling a story multiple times mutates it through a one-man telephone effect. Inconsistencies so derived do not at all indicate there was a hoax, just that there are some confused witnesses.

The media also tends to report before they can confirm and corroborate, which gives the impression that they're "changing the story" when actually they didn't know the story to begin with.

Exactly. There was a great show that I saw about how the mind works and one of the things they did was stage something to show how bad the memory can really be and how people's stories changed from one moment to the next. Like a woman who retold the story as "a man did..." but then an hour later when telling someone else sayid "a woman did..." That wasn't even under the stress of a mass murder.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Seriously?

Completely. So much so that I'm a little surprised that I (apparently) didn't make some reference to it here.

Well, technically though I didn't/don't suspect so much a "hoax" per se as I do an engineered event designed to serve a specific purpose.

[CraigSca]

dola

I also find the whole premise - that the government perpetrated this "hoax" but then left so many loose ends that ANYONE on the internet would be able to poke holes in it preposterous. It makes no sense - wouldn't you think something like this would be planned at least a little bit better?

[kcchief19]

Man who helped Sandy Hook kids is harassed by conspiracy theorists | The Lookout - Yahoo! News

They guy who had kids show up at his house fleeing the school is getting harassed by the Sandy Hook truthers. So not only are these people crazy but they are also intolerable jerks.

Is there any hope for society?

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

Man who helped Sandy Hook kids is harassed by conspiracy theorists | The Lookout - Yahoo! News

They guy who had kids show up at his house fleeing the school is getting harassed by the Sandy Hook truthers. So not only are these people crazy but they are also intolerable jerks.

Is there any hope for society?

Perhaps they're former Livestrong employees?

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Completely. So much so that I'm a little surprised that I (apparently) didn't make some reference to it here.

Well, technically though I didn't/don't suspect so much a "hoax" per se as I do an engineered event designed to serve a specific purpose.

We have our differences but with all sincerity, you're too smart of a guy to be that dumb.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

I am definitely not a "truther" as I generally ignore crap like this, nor do I believe this was a hoax. I tend to run along the lines of aran's post above. I will say, however, that I did find the father's press conference odd - walking up to the podium with a smile on his face and then immediately going into "losing my mind with grief" mode once that conference started. Mind you, it could all be trickery with editing, but it seemed out of place.

Again, I don't believe the government had anything to do with this, and I'm also one to to ask who can quantify how a person should or should not act after a tragedy such as this. That being said, the father's reaction seemed completely out of place.

Edit: I thought the link above was to a specific 30 minute video that's been floating around Facebook. Was going to queue the time stamp of the father's press conference. Didn't realize the link was to an actual site devoted to this garbage, so there you go,

Ironically I saw the video linked on Facebook not long after I submitted this thread. With that said, yes the father's press conference was odd.

Though the part where they showed the Anderson cooper interview was complete BS thrown completely out of context especially with no sound to hear what is being discussed.

[aran]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Well, technically though I didn't/don't suspect so much a "hoax" per se as I do an engineered event designed to serve a specific purpose.

It would certainly be nice if events like this were actually engineered. Then there would be a big apparatus around that we could blame for them and hold responsible for the horrible results.

I think a lot of human needs are served by thinking that it's some kind of staged event or hoax. It makes the pseudo-skeptic feel like they're in the know, which raises their self-appraisal, while conveniently finding a big shadowy apparatus onto which to heap blame when really the causes of this kind of awful ordeal are diverse, myriad, and hard to address in the sound-byte style that is all we get from the mass media these days.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

We have our differences but with all sincerity, you're too smart of a guy to be that dumb.

Apparently not.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

We have our differences but with all sincerity, you're too smart of a guy to be that dumb.

Note that I said I believed the complexity of it made it unlikely, but that's the only reason I don't have it at a higher level of probability.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Ironically I saw the video linked on Facebook not long after I submitted this thread. With that said, yes the father's press conference was odd.

Though the part where they showed the Anderson cooper interview was complete BS thrown completely out of context especially with no sound to hear what is being discussed.

Absolutely - my thought was that Anderson was probably asking about their daughter - what she was like, what did she enjoy, etc. When speaking about a child like this, I would think a parent would light up with the memories they had of their child. Completely edited and complete cherry-picking.

[DanGarion]

These idiots are a bunch of fucking morons, plain and simple.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

We have our differences but with all sincerity, you're too smart of a guy to be that dumb.

Operation Northwoods is a true declassified document. I won't credit these "investigators" for uncovering anything of substance with Sandy Hook but let's not act like killing children would not fall under collateral damage for some power crazy people either.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'll make this observation ... the notion has gotten a surprising amount of traction in the past week or so. I've seen the video (or articles about it) linked as must-see from a wider range of people on FB than just "the usual suspects".

[Bisbo]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Is it? Probably not, too hard to pull off from a practical standpoint.

But the possibility crossed my mind within 48 hours, not long after the anti-gun lobbying started.

I believe the 'inMiddleGA" part explains this post.

[EagleFan]

I guess it shows us that the conspiracy theorists are on both sides of the politicle aisle. For 9/11 it was the anti-war group saying that Bush wanted us to get into a war with Iraq (which most likely lean democrat) now we have the Obama wants to take away our guns group (which most likely lean republican). Equal rights for the crazies.

[molson]

My favorite part is the Google overlay of a Sandy Hook street map and one selected portion of a prop map as seen in one of the batman movies.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

I guess it shows us that the conspiracy theorists are on both sides of the politicle aisle. For 9/11 it was the anti-war group saying that Bush wanted us to get into a war with Iraq (which most likely lean democrat) now we have the Obama wants to take away our guns group (which most likely lean republican). Equal rights for the crazies.

Except there's no evidence that Saddam had WMD's in violation of the sanctions programs, despite all the prewar and postwar investigations.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Except there's no evidence that Saddam had WMD's in violation of the sanctions programs, despite all the prewar and postwar investigations.

I think he is talking about people that think Bush planned 9-11 not people that think he used it as a great opportunity to invade Iraq. (Much like the gun control lobby is jumping on sandy hook)

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Except there's no evidence that Saddam had WMD's in violation of the sanctions programs, despite all the prewar and postwar investigations.

I think EagleFan is talking about "9/11 Truthers".

[molson]

It's hard to wrap my head around the concept of inconsistent media reports in the aftermath of a chaotic event as "suspicious." And I sincerely don't get how odd similarities between different complicated events are suspicious either. When you're watching, say, a sporting event, and little coincidences pop up about where players are from, who their parents knew, who their college roommate was, etc, we can say, "well that's a fun little fact", nobody jumps immediately to an accusation that the game must be rigged. I mean, I sincerely don't get that. If something's an actual hoax, its probably going to have a lot fewer inconsistencies and coincidences than an actual chaotic event.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

If something's an actual hoax, its probably going to have a lot fewer inconsistencies and coincidences than an actual chaotic event.

That's what they want you to think.

[molson]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

I guess it shows us that the conspiracy theorists are on both sides of the politicle aisle. For 9/11 it was the anti-war group saying that Bush wanted us to get into a war with Iraq (which most likely lean democrat) now we have the Obama wants to take away our guns group (which most likely lean republican). Equal rights for the crazies.

That reminds of this - every president is attached to crazy conspiracy theories, though Obama's have been pretty boring. (Though if this one gets attached to him, then that's definitely a "step up")

Obama Is Haunted by Incredibly Boring Conspiracy Theories - Politics - The Atlantic Wire

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by panerd

I think he is talking about people that think Bush planned 9-11 not people that think he used it as a great opportunity to invade Iraq. (Much like the gun control lobby is jumping on sandy hook)

Gotcha.

Yeah, the 9/11 Truthers are fucking nuts.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by panerd

I think he is talking about people that think Bush planned 9-11 not people that think he used it as a great opportunity to invade Iraq. (Much like the gun control lobby is jumping on sandy hook)

Originally Posted by sabotai

I think EagleFan is talking about "9/11 Truthers".

What they said...

[molson]

And there's never even a proposed speculation about what the coincidences actually show. Like looking at this just now, there's a lot of mileage out there over the name "Sandy Hook" being seen on a Gotham map in the Dark Knight movie. A movie which, of course, is associated with another mass shooting. And the prop master of that movie died and his funeral was at.....NEWTOWN (suspicious music.) But what do they think this means? What does this show us? I can't find one actual proposed scenario about how this information reveals a big conspiracy. For these people, it's just enough that there's tiny details in common between incredibly complicated events - that just proves "conspiracy" somehow, with no even suggested narrative actually tying the things in common to this greater plot. If we sit down with a notebook and watch the batman movie, we can probably find "clues" referencing hundreds of thousands if not millions of different places in the U.S.

I've wasted too many brain cells on this, but these people do fascinate me. Kind of like how schizophrenia fascinates me.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Perhaps they're former Livestrong employees?

If we could combine Livestrong people with Groupon employees, and then send them away, we'd be in a better world.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Gotcha.

Yeah, the 9/11 Truthers are fucking nuts.

Is it truther to maybe think that they shot that plane down in PA and then concocted a story? That's pretty much to the extent that I think anything was engineered. I don't necessarily believe it to be the truth, but I at least think it's a reasonable possibility.

[molson]

Originally Posted by stevew

Is it truther to maybe think that they shot that plane down in PA and then concocted a story? That's pretty much to the extent that I think anything was engineered. I don't necessarily believe it to be the truth, but I at least think it's a reasonable possibility.

I'd say technically no, that doesn't make one a Truther. But that person would be accusing the government of covering up an act that they were criticized for not doing. Like if anything, the government would want to claim that they DID pull that off. The order was placed to shoot all the planes down. There was even an order to shoot down a plane that as it turned out, wasn't actually hijacked. The actual planes weren't shot down only because of poor strategic positioning of the military aircraft.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by molson

And there's never even a proposed speculation about what the coincidences actually show. Like looking at this just now, there's a lot of mileage out there over the name "Sandy Hook" being seen on a Gotham map in the Dark Knight movie. A movie which, of course, is associated with another school shooting. And the prop master of that movie died and his funeral was at.....NEWTOWN (suspicious music.) But what do they think this means? What does this show us? I can't find one actual proposed scenario about how this information reveals a big conspiracy. For these people, it's just enough that there's tiny details in common between incredibly complicated events - that just proves "conspiracy" somehow, with no even suggested narrative actually tying the things in common to this greater plot. If we sit down with a notebook and watch the batman movie, we can probably find "clues" referencing hundreds of thousands if not millions of different places in the U.S.

I've wasted too many brain cells on this, but these people do fascinate me. Kind of like how schizophrenia fascinates me.

That could probably lead to an interesting game, similar to the 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon. Find a movie like Batman and try to tie as many real life events to it as possible.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by molson

And there's never even a proposed speculation about what the coincidences actually show. Like looking at this just now, there's a lot of mileage out there over the name "Sandy Hook" being seen on a Gotham map in the Dark Knight movie. A movie which, of course, is associated with another school shooting. And the prop master of that movie died and his funeral was at.....NEWTOWN (suspicious music.) But what do they think this means? What does this show us? I can't find one actual proposed scenario about how this information reveals a big conspiracy. For these people, it's just enough that there's tiny details in common between incredibly complicated events - that just proves "conspiracy" somehow, with no even suggested narrative actually tying the things in common to this greater plot. If we sit down with a notebook and watch the batman movie, we can probably find "clues" referencing hundreds of thousands if not millions of different places in the U.S.

I've wasted too many brain cells on this, but these people do fascinate me. Kind of like how schizophrenia fascinates me.

Exactly! It's one thing to find either inconsistency or coincidence within an event, but I always as myself "towards what end?" Meaning, there's a consistency, but how does that either a) prove a conspiracy or b) if there is a conspiracy why would the proposed conspirators go down that path where these coincidences "add up"?

For instance - why would you choose an actor, supposedly a member of SAG (later shown as false) to report that there were 6 children at the base of his driveway? I mean, really, if you were perpetrating a conspiracy you'd really choose someone that can be found on a SAG database? They're so careful with out parts of the conspiracy, but Margaret, who was in charge of the actors, got lazy one day and decided to see if she could go on the cheap by paying an old SAG actor scale. It makes no sense.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

They're so careful with out parts of the conspiracy, but Margaret, who was in charge of the actors, got lazy one day and decided to see if she could go on the cheap by paying an old SAG actor scale. It makes no sense.

That actually puts an amusing scene in my head... We cut to video footage of some victims, or victims families, or whatever, at the next big tragedy and we see Brad Pitt being interviewed by Sean Penn...

Damn, Margaret really phoned this one in...

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Seriously?

you expect anything different?

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Exactly. There was a great show that I saw about how the mind works and one of the things they did was stage something to show how bad the memory can really be and how people's stories changed from one moment to the next. Like a woman who retold the story as "a man did..." but then an hour later when telling someone else sayid "a woman did..." That wasn't even under the stress of a mass murder.

My friend very recently finished up at the Police Academy and this is one of the things they learn about...

A few months ago I had an incident with a bag snatcher where I chased him down, he pulled a knife and jumped into his car. 5 minutes later I was talking to police and all I could remember were his license plate details because I had been repeating them in my head as I walked back to the victim. I couldn't be sure even of what colour clothes he had on or what make of car he jumped into.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

My friend very recently finished up at the Police Academy and this is one of the things they learn about...

A few months ago I had an incident with a bag snatcher where I chased him down, he pulled a knife and jumped into his car. 5 minutes later I was talking to police and all I could remember were his license plate details because I had been repeating them in my head as I walked back to the victim. I couldn't be sure even of what colour clothes he had on or what make of car he jumped into.

For those interested in reading more about the unreliability of memory, search out the works of Elizabeth Loftus - she's pretty much pioneered the research in this area. She was one of my profs way back in the day at the U of Washington (she's since moved on - can't remember where she's teaching now).

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by molson

And there's never even a proposed speculation about what the coincidences actually show. Like looking at this just now, there's a lot of mileage out there over the name "Sandy Hook" being seen on a Gotham map in the Dark Knight movie. A movie which, of course, is associated with another mass shooting. And the prop master of that movie died and his funeral was at.....NEWTOWN (suspicious music.) But what do they think this means? What does this show us? I can't find one actual proposed scenario about how this information reveals a big conspiracy. For these people, it's just enough that there's tiny details in common between incredibly complicated events - that just proves "conspiracy" somehow, with no even suggested narrative actually tying the things in common to this greater plot. If we sit down with a notebook and watch the batman movie, we can probably find "clues" referencing hundreds of thousands if not millions of different places in the U.S.

Originally Posted by molson

I'd say technically no, that doesn't make one a Truther. But that person would be accusing the government of covering up an act that they were criticized for not doing. Like if anything, the government would want to claim that they DID pull that off. The order was placed to shoot all the planes down. There was even an order to shoot down a plane that as it turned out, wasn't actually hijacked. The actual planes weren't shot down only because of poor strategic positioning of the military aircraft.

I'd appreciate it if you stop repeatedly trying to introduce rationality into this discussion.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

Man who helped Sandy Hook kids is harassed by conspiracy theorists | The Lookout - Yahoo! News

They guy who had kids show up at his house fleeing the school is getting harassed by the Sandy Hook truthers. So not only are these people crazy but they are also intolerable jerks.

Is there any hope for society?

Just read this, totally disgusting that some paranoid asshats would target someone who comforted these kids.

In a situation like this you expect stories to change/differ as it is a traumatic event and pretty hard to think cleary when you are caught in the overwhelming emotions of the moment.

And as Aran mentioned the media reports are often way off early on as different outlets rush to get information out before anyone else.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

i think it's perfectly valid to ask questions. it's the theorizing i'm not a fan of

[albionmoonlight]

I know a decent number of people who are somewhere on the middle vis a vis gun control/gun rights. They do not want massive restrictions or over-regulation, but they also do not oppose some regulation/restrictions on guns/ammo/etc. And, by and large, they are more persuadable on this than on most issues because it does not really come up much in their day to day lives.

But that will change if the mainstream gun-rights folks do not denounce these idiot truthers. A bunch of kids were killed in cold blood for no reason.

(And by "denounce," I do not mean like some of my relatives are doing on Facebook--posting stuff from these truthers with comments like "I am not saying that I believe this, but it does raise a lot of interesting questions.")

Seriously, the worst mistake the gun lobby can make is to not run from these truthers.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I know a decent number of people who are somewhere on the middle vis a vis gun control/gun rights.

*raises hand*

I'm a damned liberal, but being from a rural area and a hunter (not avid, but I still do it), I've never been for all that much gun control.

But this whole Sandy Hook thing has made a lot of seemingly ordinary people I know go over the edge with paranoia.

[panerd]

Couldn't one say that the Sandy Hook "truthers" are disinformation to make the pro-gun types look even worse? (A conspriacy within a conspiracy )

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by lungs

I know go over the edge with paranoia.

Kinda hard to call it paranoia when the opposition is pretty open about their intentions.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Kinda hard to call it paranoia when the opposition is pretty open about their intentions.

Case in point. You just make your own paranoia sound much more intelligent than a lot of these morons.