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Old 01-24-2020, 10:50 PM   #21051
Neon_Chaos
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To be fair, even NASA copies logos.

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Old 01-25-2020, 11:03 AM   #21052
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So the defense is wrapping with the Moscow Mitch theory of you can’t do this in an election year.
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Old 01-26-2020, 03:10 PM   #21053
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Being reported that 3 rockets hit the U.S. embassy in Iraq.
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Old 01-26-2020, 03:10 PM   #21054
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Anyone else seeing reports of 3 rockets hitting the US embassy in Baghdad?
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Old 01-26-2020, 03:20 PM   #21055
molson
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Originally Posted by thesloppy View Post
I love that he just had an unlabeled map at the ready.

You don't carry a map around to randomly challenge people with geography questions?

You're slacking.
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Old 01-26-2020, 03:24 PM   #21056
Atocep
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Originally Posted by molson View Post
You don't carry a map around to randomly challenge people with geography questions?

You're slacking.

I'd give Trump a 50/50 chance of finding Ukraine on the map simply because I'm sure he's been in enough briefings that it's stuck by now.

Outside of that I'd put the over/under on number of countries he can point out on a map at 15.
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Old 01-26-2020, 03:31 PM   #21057
molson
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Originally Posted by Atocep View Post
I'd give Trump a 50/50 chance of finding Ukraine on the map simply because I'm sure he's been in enough briefings that it's stuck by now.

Outside of that I'd put the over/under on number of countries he can point out on a map at 15.

I could maybe see him staring at the real-time flight map on his private planes (if those exist on private planes), and sending up instructions to the pilot on the direction they should go. Maybe he could pick up a few country names that way.

Last edited by molson : 01-26-2020 at 03:32 PM.
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Old 01-26-2020, 03:48 PM   #21058
bronconick
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Originally Posted by molson View Post
You don't carry a map around to randomly challenge people with geography questions?

You're slacking.

It's part of how the administration operates. Trump handed out copies of his electoral map victory to people all the time the first year or two
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Old 01-26-2020, 07:39 PM   #21059
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According to the NY Times, in John Bolton's unpublished book, he says Trump told him in August that he wanted to continue freezing Ukraine's assets until they helped with investigations into Biden and other Democrats
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Old 01-26-2020, 09:08 PM   #21060
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Don’t worry. It’s a nothing burger. Everything is. The R’s in Congress are too far up Trump’s ass to see common sense if it smacked them in face.
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Old 01-26-2020, 09:28 PM   #21061
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Originally Posted by kingfc22 View Post
Don’t worry. It’s a nothing burger. Everything is. The R’s in Congress are too far up Trump’s ass to see common sense if it smacked them in face.


You know, the funny thing is, that spattered across my FB feed in NKY, it is 100% the opposite. Not a shocker, but it's certainly indicative of the current state of affairs.
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Old 01-26-2020, 09:33 PM   #21062
albionmoonlight
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Dems should be careful about Bolton. I get that the enemy of my enemy is my friend and all that, but he's still a don't-trust-him-as-far-as-you-can-throw-him kind of guy.
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Old 01-26-2020, 09:45 PM   #21063
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Originally Posted by albionmoonlight View Post
Dems should be careful about Bolton. I get that the enemy of my enemy is my friend and all that, but he's still a don't-trust-him-as-far-as-you-can-throw-him kind of guy.


Yep, he's nothing that should be celebrated. It should be one piece, not some sort of of shocking revelation that the world hinges on. How many other people do we deserve to hear from, who was barred from testifying? They get tunnel vision, lose focus, and can't keep their expectations straight.
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Old 01-27-2020, 07:39 AM   #21064
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While Dems see the Bolton confirmation of a quid pro quo as a smoking gun, recall that one (among the many) lines of defense that Cult 45 has tossed out there is that of course they held up the aid, get over it, but it's not for personal politics, it's just that there's a national interest in Ukriane being rid of internal corruption.

And while that's pretty preposterous on its face to me/us, surely there are 50 or so GOP Senators who will find that perfectly adequate to hang their hats (and place in history) upon.
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Old 01-27-2020, 07:48 AM   #21065
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I think it's as simple as, the trial will be over before the State of the Union. That's always been the plan so that he can take a victory lap. There isn't time to call witnesses and meet that deadline, so there won't be any witnesses regardless of what news breaks.
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Old 01-27-2020, 08:29 AM   #21066
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https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/27/o...witnesses.html
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Old 01-27-2020, 08:38 AM   #21067
QuikSand
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The "will he?" angle is a fascinating twist...
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Old 01-27-2020, 09:22 AM   #21068
bronconick
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Hoping for Roberts to do that is a sign of how screwed this country has been for 3+ years
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Old 01-27-2020, 07:15 PM   #21069
JPhillips
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John Bolton - Hardcore leftist

I didn't see that coming a few years ago.
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Old 01-27-2020, 07:26 PM   #21070
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Originally Posted by JPhillips View Post
John Bolton - Hardcore leftist

I didn't see that coming a few years ago.

We've seen it with Flake, Bob Mueller, and others but the line for what's considered a leftist by most Trump supporters just moved several miles to the right. We're a couple more scandals away from Steven King being a moderate.
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Old 01-27-2020, 07:28 PM   #21071
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With credit going to Pink Floyd ... "Another brick in the wall".

I assume a Democratic administration can reverse this relatively easily.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/27/polit...rge/index.html
Quote:
The Supreme Court in a 5-4 vote Monday cleared the way for the Trump administration to make it more difficult for low-income immigrants seeking to come to or trying to remain legally in the United States.

The so-called public charge rule, unveiled in August, impacts people who rely on public assistance, including most forms of Medicaid, food stamps and housing vouchers.

It made national headlines last summer when then-acting Director of US Citizenship and Immigration Services Ken Cuccinelli, in his defense of the rule, revised the iconic poem on the Statue of Liberty's pedestal, saying: "Give me your tired and your poor who can stand on their own two feet and who will not become a public charge."

Advocates and several states immediately opposed the rule, arguing that the changes would penalize immigrants who rely on temporary assistance from the government and impose costs on the states.

Monday's vote split along ideological lines, with the five conservative justices in the majority.
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Old 01-28-2020, 05:00 PM   #21072
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McConnell says he currently does not have enough Republican votes to block witnesses
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Old 01-28-2020, 05:45 PM   #21073
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Originally Posted by Thomkal View Post
McConnell says he currently does not have enough Republican votes to block witnesses

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/mcc...es-bolton-book

Last edited by Lathum : 01-28-2020 at 05:58 PM.
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Old 01-28-2020, 06:40 PM   #21074
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When your strategy is this "GOP doesn't have votes yet to block impeachment witnesses"...I just don't know what to say when it is written in black and white.
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Old 01-28-2020, 09:02 PM   #21075
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We all knew it would happen, but it's still gob smacking to see the GOP jump to a defense of, sure he did it, who cares?
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Old 01-28-2020, 10:42 PM   #21076
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The plan is public now and as expected Israelis like it and the Palestinians say its DOA.

IMHO the Palestinians just need to negotiate the best deal possible for them now and move on with their lives/country (e.g. bet the Clinton sponsored plan looks pretty good right 15+ years later). Won't be perfect especially since everyone knows who has most/all leverage and the other Arab countries are too busy dealing with other things e.g. the Palestinian problem is now Page 5.

$50B over 10 years doesn't seem to be enough. It should be increased to really sweeten (e.g. bribe) the deal.

My guess is there is "some" give in all except for #2.

Trump’s Israel-Palestine peace plan, explained - Vox
Quote:
What the new peace plan actually says

There’s a lot to this document, but there are four major elements of the new political proposal in particular you need to know about: 1) Israel keeps the vast majority of Jerusalem as its sovereign capital; 2) Palestinians get no right of return; 3) it redraws borders mainly between Israel and the West Bank; and 4) doesn’t allow for Palestine to create a fighting force to defend itself.
:
:
Dubbed “Peace to Prosperity,” the economic plan was billed as “a vision to empower the Palestinian people to build a prosperous and vibrant Palestinian society.” The administration claimed it had “the potential to facilitate more than $50 billion in new investment over ten years.”

Last edited by Edward64 : 01-28-2020 at 10:43 PM.
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Old 01-29-2020, 05:05 AM   #21077
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Saw this elsewhere, and it caused a chuckled.

ALL THE WITNESSES: Ok we all agree. This is what happened.

REPUBLICANS: None of you were in the room!

BOLTON: *raises hand* Well I was in the...

REPUBLICANS: Who asked you?! Shut up! You’re a liberal pawn!

BOLTON: Um... I’m actually I’m a lifelong Republican and I was literally Trump’s national security advi...

REPUBLICANS: Shut your mustache! Somebody bring back the first national security advisor.

FLYNN: *in orange jumpsuit* Hey sorry guys I’m in jail lol.

REPUBLICANS: What? Why?

FLYNN: For lying to the FBI about the Russia investigation.

REPUBLICANS: Well what idiot told you to do that?!

FLYNN: The Pres...

REPUBLICANS: Shut up! No one believes either of you!

KELLY: *raises hand* I believe them. And I was Trump’s Chief of sta...

REPUBLICANS: Shut up! Let’s talk to the real chief of staff. Who is he?

MULVANEY: *raises hand* It’s me.

REPUBLICANS: Shit. Never mind.

PARNAS: *raises hand* I was also in the room. In fact, here’s a cell phone video of the President saying that...

REPUBLICANS: Wait what?! How in hell did you sneak a cell phone into a meeting with the President?

PARNAS: It was easy I just walked right in and...

REPUBLICANS: Shut up! You’re a criminal!

PARNAS: Correct. And I just walked right into...

TRUMP: I don’t know him.

PARNAS: And here’s 500 pictures of me with the President because we’re besties.

REPUBLICANS: Wait... What idiot introduced you to the President??

PARNAS: His personal lawyer.

REPUBLICANS: Cohen??

COHEN: *also in orange jumpsuit* Hey no sorry guys I’m in jail too.

REPUBLICANS: Why?

COHEN: For campaign finance violations.

REPUBLICANS: Who’s campaign?

COHEN: The Pres...

REPUBLICANS: Shut up!

PARNAS: It was Giuliani.

YOVANOVITCH: Giuliani! That’s the guy who had me fired from my job!

REPUBLICANS: Who are you??

YOVANOVITCH: I was the ambassador to Ukraine.

REPUBLICANS: Wait, you had her fired? Do you work for the government??

GIULIANI: Nope.

REPUBLICANS: Well who is the ambassador to the European Union??

SONDLAND: *raises hand* Me. I was also in the roo...

REPUBLICANS: F@$&!!!

PUTIN: *rubs his bare chest*
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Old 01-29-2020, 07:09 AM   #21078
albionmoonlight
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I’m not a fan of Trump’s tweets, but I’ll give credit where it’s due. His point that if he’d listened to John Bolton “we’d be in World War Six by now” is pretty funny.
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Old 01-29-2020, 07:37 AM   #21079
PilotMan
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Originally Posted by albionmoonlight View Post
I’m not a fan of Trump’s tweets, but I’ll give credit where it’s due. His point that if he’d listened to John Bolton “we’d be in World War Six by now” is pretty funny.


trump repeating opposition (to Bolton's nomination) talking points and calling them his own, IS funny.
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Old 01-29-2020, 09:28 AM   #21080
larrymcg421
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Well it makes sense that Bolton was a deep liberal plant all these years, unleashed just now to damage the President's impeachment defense. That mustache (there's no way it's real, right?) should've been a dead giveaway a long time ago.
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Old 01-29-2020, 10:00 AM   #21081
JPhillips
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Originally Posted by Edward64 View Post
The plan is public now and as expected Israelis like it and the Palestinians say its DOA.

IMHO the Palestinians just need to negotiate the best deal possible for them now and move on with their lives/country (e.g. bet the Clinton sponsored plan looks pretty good right 15+ years later). Won't be perfect especially since everyone knows who has most/all leverage and the other Arab countries are too busy dealing with other things e.g. the Palestinian problem is now Page 5.

$50B over 10 years doesn't seem to be enough. It should be increased to really sweeten (e.g. bribe) the deal.

My guess is there is "some" give in all except for #2.

Trump’s Israel-Palestine peace plan, explained - Vox

It's total bullshit. It's an annexation plan disguised as a peace plan. Not only were the Palestinians ignored in creating this, they are only given sovereignty at a later date if the Israelis choose to do so. There are no dates or enforcement mechanisms that guarantee a future Palestinian state. It's a plan fr a permanent apartheid state.
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Old 01-29-2020, 10:36 AM   #21082
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Originally Posted by JPhillips View Post
It's total bullshit. It's an annexation plan disguised as a peace plan. Not only were the Palestinians ignored in creating this, they are only given sovereignty at a later date if the Israelis choose to do so. There are no dates or enforcement mechanisms that guarantee a future Palestinian state. It's a plan fr a permanent apartheid state.

I don't disagree, its heavily tilted towards the Israelis. All I am saying is the Palestinians should negotiate knowing they won't get all they want and will very likely have to "give/compromise" more than the Israelis.

Their peak leverage is in the past ... the Palestians have fractured between West Bank & Gaza. ISIL and like, Iran and Iraq are in the headlines, not the Palestinians. The Israeli "wall" has worked to significantly reduced terrorist attacks. US has made inroads in allying with Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia ... who can the Palestians look to as a champion or benefactor? Zippo, nada

With that said, its best for them to wait until after the US elections and for the Israeli elections to be settled (with Netanyahu hopefully gone). A Democrat President & House will be "better" for them but they still won't get near/everything they want.

Last edited by Edward64 : 01-29-2020 at 10:37 AM.
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Old 01-29-2020, 11:27 AM   #21083
BYU 14
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Originally Posted by larrymcg421 View Post
Well it makes sense that Bolton was a deep liberal plant all these years, unleashed just now to damage the President's impeachment defense. That mustache (there's no way it's real, right?) should've been a dead giveaway a long time ago.

You know Alex Jones is going to pick this up and run with it right?
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Old 01-29-2020, 11:31 AM   #21084
bob
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Is there any sort of article that using hindsight suggests what should have been done post WWI and WWII to minimize the issues in the middle east?
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Old 01-29-2020, 11:53 AM   #21085
JPhillips
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I don't disagree, its heavily tilted towards the Israelis. All I am saying is the Palestinians should negotiate knowing they won't get all they want and will very likely have to "give/compromise" more than the Israelis.

Their peak leverage is in the past ... the Palestians have fractured between West Bank & Gaza. ISIL and like, Iran and Iraq are in the headlines, not the Palestinians. The Israeli "wall" has worked to significantly reduced terrorist attacks. US has made inroads in allying with Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia ... who can the Palestians look to as a champion or benefactor? Zippo, nada

With that said, its best for them to wait until after the US elections and for the Israeli elections to be settled (with Netanyahu hopefully gone). A Democrat President & House will be "better" for them but they still won't get near/everything they want.

Agreeing to this is worse than doing nothing. What do they get from the deal?
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Old 01-29-2020, 11:56 AM   #21086
Edward64
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Originally Posted by JPhillips View Post
Agreeing to this is worse than doing nothing. What do they get from the deal?

I'm not saying agree to this plan. I am saying start to negotiate with reality of their situation (and lack of leverage) in mind.
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Old 01-29-2020, 12:00 PM   #21087
Izulde
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Originally Posted by bob View Post
Is there any sort of article that using hindsight suggests what should have been done post WWI and WWII to minimize the issues in the middle east?

One can write literal books about this subject or simply put in one line:

White people, stop interfering in regions you don't know anything about and don't try to know anything about.
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Old 01-29-2020, 12:01 PM   #21088
bob
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Not very helpful but thanks
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Old 01-29-2020, 12:02 PM   #21089
PilotMan
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I'm not saying agree to this plan. I am saying start to negotiate with reality of their situation (and lack of leverage) in mind.


This sounds nearly like the american south, post civil war. They should just take what we give them. They're going to be permanent second class citizens as far as our country goes.
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Old 01-29-2020, 12:06 PM   #21090
thesloppy
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Considering the relatively constant chaos in the middle east, negotiating when your leverage is at its lowest seems like a horrible strategy, regardless of who you are.
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Old 01-29-2020, 12:08 PM   #21091
Edward64
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This sounds nearly like the american south, post civil war. They should just take what we give them. They're going to be permanent second class citizens as far as our country goes.

Unfortunately, I would go further. The balance of power and how Palestinians are treated are like US Government and American Indians back in the 19th century (well, maybe not quite that bad). They don't have to take 100% of what is asked but to expect 100% of their demands is not real.

Last edited by Edward64 : 01-29-2020 at 12:17 PM.
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Old 01-29-2020, 12:14 PM   #21092
Edward64
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Originally Posted by thesloppy View Post
Considering the relatively constant chaos in the middle east, negotiating when your leverage is at its lowest seems like a horrible strategy, regardless of who you are.

I agree assuming you believe your situation/leverage will improve anytime soon. I think there is a good chance it won't markedly improve anytime soon with all the other distractions and higher priorities the Arab countries have.
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Old 01-29-2020, 12:21 PM   #21093
JPhillips
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How things might have been different if Ariel Sharon hadn't had a stroke...
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Old 01-29-2020, 12:28 PM   #21094
Edward64
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How things might have been different if Ariel Sharon hadn't had a stroke...

I looked but wasn't able to find an easy comparison on all the recent ME peace proposals. I think the Clinton deal was probably the best the Palestinians could have hoped for and that was 20+ years ago.
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Old 01-29-2020, 12:47 PM   #21095
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White House has issued a legal threat to try to stop Bolton's book from being published. Good luck with that
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Old 01-29-2020, 12:57 PM   #21096
JPhillips
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I looked but wasn't able to find an easy comparison on all the recent ME peace proposals. I think the Clinton deal was probably the best the Palestinians could have hoped for and that was 20+ years ago.

Sharon pulled out of Gaza and was expected to pull out of the West Bank. He seemed to understand that Israel could survive as a democracy only if the occupation ended.
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Old 01-29-2020, 01:14 PM   #21097
Edward64
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Sharon pulled out of Gaza and was expected to pull out of the West Bank. He seemed to understand that Israel could survive as a democracy only if the occupation ended.

That peace plan was already in shambles before Sharon had a stroke. So many missed opportunities for the Palestinian people.

Road map for peace - Wikipedia
Quote:
Deadlock
In November 2003, the United Nations Security Council endorsed the Roadmap in United Nations Security Council Resolution 1515 which called for an end to all violence including "terrorism, provocation, incitement and destruction". By the end of 2003, the Palestinian Authority had not prevented Palestinian terrorism, and Israel had neither withdrawn from Palestinian areas occupied since 28 September 2000, nor frozen settlement expansion. Thus the requirements of Phase I of the Roadmap were not fulfilled, and the Roadmap has not continued further. It eventually reached deadlock.

Developments in 2004
In 2004, the "peace process" was still overshadowed by the Second Intifada, characterized by mutual Palestinian and Israeli violence. Reportedly, some 110 Israelis and 820 Palestinians were killed in the conflict: 40 Israeli military and 67 civilians were killed;[26] some 350 Palestinian militants, 452 civilians and 18 unknown[27] were killed.[26] While a number of the Palestinian militants were killed when carrying out an attack, many were killed in IDF raids on Palestinian neighbourhoods or at arrest attempts.[28]

Sharon's announcement of the disengagement plan
On 14 April 2004, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon wrote a letter to US President George W. Bush, in which he reconfirmed his commitment to the Roadmap. He also accused the Palestinian Authority of not carrying out its part of the responsibilities under the Roadmap. Stating that "there exists no Palestinian partner with whom to advance peacefully toward a settlement", Sharon announced his unilateral disengagement plan (Israeli withdrawal from Gaza), which meant the removal of all Israeli settlements from the Gaza Strip and four settlements in the West Bank.[29] The plan was already suggested by him on 18 December 2003 at the Fourth Herzliya Conference.[30]

Although not undertaken under the Roadmap, Sharon declared this unilateral step not inconsistent with it. President Bush gave his support to the plan, calling it "a bold and historic initiative that can make an important contribution to peace".[29]
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Old 01-29-2020, 01:36 PM   #21098
JPhillips
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Yeah, and he was expected to go further. He decided not to wait on the Palestinians and to save a democratic Israel on his own. Who knows how far he would have gone after the West Bank, but his intentions were pretty clear.
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Old 01-29-2020, 01:37 PM   #21099
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dola

lol Dershowitz

As long as a president believes his actions are in the national interest it's impossible for them to be corrupt.
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Old 01-29-2020, 01:55 PM   #21100
ISiddiqui
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The Nixon argument.
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