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Old 07-30-2019, 06:11 PM   #301
JPhillips
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I don't know, but she's been more successful at communicating whatever it is.

I live in NY, so I'm not that active in the primary. By the time it gets to me the decision will probably already be made.
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Old 07-30-2019, 08:53 PM   #302
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Trump must be loving all the mentions he is getting. This has got to be fueling his hate.
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Old 07-30-2019, 09:01 PM   #303
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FWIW, don't think there is enough time for candidates to respond to questions.
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Old 07-30-2019, 09:02 PM   #304
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I'm liking Gov. Bullock so far.
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Old 07-30-2019, 09:03 PM   #305
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FWIW, don't think there is enough time for candidates to respond to questions.

Probably because they are giving it all to Bernie.

10 people is way too much.
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Old 07-30-2019, 09:06 PM   #306
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Williamson looks awfully pale and powdery.

Hmmm, a HoN with Williamson vs Warren?
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Old 07-30-2019, 09:08 PM   #307
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I think Williamson is just fed up now and is reverting to rehearsed talking points.
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Old 07-30-2019, 09:32 PM   #308
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If Sanders were president could he do anything?
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Old 07-30-2019, 09:40 PM   #309
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I think Williamson is just fed up now and is reverting to rehearsed talking points.

Confirmed
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Old 07-30-2019, 09:54 PM   #310
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If Sanders were president could he do anything?

No.

Obvious with the GOP, but he would have plenty of problems with Dems in the Senate. They'd never kill the filibuster for him.
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Old 07-30-2019, 10:09 PM   #311
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A friends daughters student loan payment is $700 a month. How does a 22 year old start a life with a hole the big to dig out of.
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Old 07-30-2019, 10:12 PM   #312
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A friends daughters student loan payment is $700 a month. How does a 22 year old start a life with a hole the big to dig out of.

Work an extra job?
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Old 07-30-2019, 10:14 PM   #313
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Work an extra job?

Or 2
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Old 07-30-2019, 10:16 PM   #314
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What degree (if any) did she get?
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Old 07-30-2019, 10:16 PM   #315
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A friends daughters student loan payment is $700 a month. How does a 22 year old start a life with a hole the big to dig out of.

Williams is bat shit crazy, but she is right. Young people would do a lot more with that money than people who are already wealthy.

Another angle that I have yet to hear mentioned is if college was free people spending the money they are putting aside for college funds could spend it on other things. We put away about 20K per year for our kids college. If we didn't have to do that I would spend that money on projects for the house, travel, maybe get a vehicle a year newer, etc...

The classic responses to this from the right make me crazy. They always claim people knew what they were doing, etc...

Then you have the people who are sour grapes because THEY paid off their loans so everyone else should have to also, or they worked while they were in school so they wouldn't have loans. My wife and I both had loans and worked hard to pay them off. I would love for people to not be saddled with that debt.

Last edited by Lathum : 07-30-2019 at 10:17 PM.
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Old 07-30-2019, 10:21 PM   #316
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Oh and this is rather late but I thought DNC chair Tom Perez gave an excellent speech before the debate opened.
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Old 07-30-2019, 10:25 PM   #317
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If I voted today Buttigieg would be my guy.
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Old 07-30-2019, 10:44 PM   #318
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The classic responses to this from the right make me crazy. They always claim people knew what they were doing, etc...

Sure there are exceptions but yeah, for the most part, they probably knew or should have known.
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Old 07-30-2019, 10:51 PM   #319
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I thought Warren and Sanders did well. Buttigieg and Bullock did ok. Delaney had some moments.

No one else really did much of anything to stand out in a positive way.


Hickenlooper trying to say he's more progressive than anyone on that stage while arguing to keep soldiers scattered all over the world and driving home policy views that fit democrats 20 years ago was interesting.

Beto did better, but is out of his comfort zone in these debates.
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Old 07-30-2019, 10:53 PM   #320
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Sure there are exceptions but yeah, for the most part, they probably knew or should have known.

But many didn't have a choice. You are told you have to go to college to get a good job, yet many people have to get the loans to go to college.
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Old 07-30-2019, 11:10 PM   #321
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But many didn't have a choice. You are told you have to go to college to get a good job, yet many people have to get the loans to go to college.

Its true that Higher Ed increases the odds for a better career.

No way to tell if it was a good decision or not. What's the story?
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Old 07-30-2019, 11:11 PM   #322
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What degree (if any) did she get?

She got it in Biology. She will work in research or a lab at a haospital
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Old 07-30-2019, 11:12 PM   #323
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Its true that Higher Ed increases the odds for a better career.

No way to tell if it was a good decision or not. What's the story?

No idea, not my story.

Going worked out for us, and even though I paid ours back I would hold zero resentment towards anyones who was forgiven.
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Old 07-30-2019, 11:19 PM   #324
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Its true that Higher Ed increases the odds for a better career.

No way to tell if it was a good decision or not. What's the story?

Increases but in no way guarantees. Not remotely close. But the point is who benefits from putting young people $100,000+ in debt before they work a day in their life? It's not good for the economy. I guess it's good for maintaining our military numbers which is just another form of class separation.

Saying that it's something everyone else had to deal with so figure out misses the point and is off base anyway considering the rising cost of college compared to wages. It's similar to asking why someone in their 30s is renting instead of buying a home.

Those who don't want to address the issue of student debt also tend to be against raising the minimum wage, which raises the question of how you expect the debt to paid off?

You can start a company, drive it into the ground, go hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt, and then more or less wipe the slate clean by declaring bankruptcy. However, if you're a college student, get a degree, but can't find a job to keep up with payments quick enough you're screwed. Welcome to the American Dream.
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Old 07-30-2019, 11:31 PM   #325
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You know how we ended the Soviet Union? Forcing them to spend money on the military. Someone said we spend more on defense than the next 10 nations combined. Sometimes you dont learn from history.
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Old 07-31-2019, 12:59 AM   #326
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Williams is bat shit crazy, but she is right. Young people would do a lot more with that money than people who are already wealthy.

Another angle that I have yet to hear mentioned is if college was free people spending the money they are putting aside for college funds could spend it on other things. We put away about 20K per year for our kids college. If we didn't have to do that I would spend that money on projects for the house, travel, maybe get a vehicle a year newer, etc...

The classic responses to this from the right make me crazy. They always claim people knew what they were doing, etc...
If college were free there would be no incentive for individual colleges to do better. If college was 100% covered by the government it'd just lead to private schools upping their tuition even more than they do now. I'm all for state governments spending more on public schools, but I hope no one is paying $700/ month on loans to an in state school.

Student loan debt and the declining worth of "a college degree" have been topics of discussion since I was in school in 2005... loan companies and "schools" pull some shady stuff, but there's still way too many people out there paying for private school educations that have a negative EV. I was lucky enough to have somewhat wealthy parents & be accepted to a number of schools... and I chose to go to the in state university because it meant I would graduate with zero debt. (There's also probably way too many employers out there who require "a degree" without any thought as to where it came from, but that's a slightly different tangent...)

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Old 07-31-2019, 08:40 AM   #327
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I think the points that the college loan/free college debate rarely mentions, or at least I rarely hear (maybe I listen to the wrong voices)is that

1) Not all careers need a college education.
2) There is a major shortage of work force in the trades for well paying jobs.
3) If college was "free for everyone" yes there would be an influx of spending from parents on goods, but it would also displace a large number of workers. As many young folks would go to college if for no other reason than to avoid working for a while.

Again I've talked about my specific situation a bunch. I hire field technicians and teach them to repair equipment. An 18 year old with a HS diploma and no education can make $60k his first year and have a company truck and good benefits. 5 years in my top field guys are doubling that number.

Tarcone's example is a perfect one. A BS in Biology is a worthless degree. You can teach with it or get a MS or PHD or use it as a base for med school, vet school or law school. Otherwise it has no benefit. She should have chose better.

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Old 07-31-2019, 09:18 AM   #328
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If we didn't decide to have free high schools decades ago, the US population would never agree to such a thing now.
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Old 07-31-2019, 09:53 AM   #329
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Tarcone's example is a perfect one. A BS in Biology is a worthless degree. You can teach with it or get a MS or PHD or use it as a base for med school, vet school or law school. Otherwise it has no benefit. She should have chose better.

Complete BS, I have a BS in Biology and make six figures. I was able to get a few 50k job right out of college and that was years ago.

To not have a degree will hamstring you at some point, having a STEM degree is crucial.

The real truth is that in this day and age you may have to go where the jobs are or get a masters (I do and the job pays for one).

You have to have a plan though. I’m in Eastern PA, you throw a rock and you can find a bio job in food, beverage or pharma.
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Old 07-31-2019, 12:18 PM   #330
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It won't go anywhere, but I like Bullock's "wish-list economics" stuff. These debates sometimes feel like just a competition on who can promise the most free stuff.
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Old 07-31-2019, 12:24 PM   #331
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To not have a degree will hamstring you at some point, having a STEM degree is crucial.


While STEM degrees are Ideal.

Any BS is will open doors.
Most white collar jobs require a BS.
Does not mater what it is, just it is a requirement to apply.

It is a catch 22.
Most collage degrees are not worth the cost.
But you can not even apply for a front office job if you do not have one.
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Old 07-31-2019, 12:27 PM   #332
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Most collage degrees are not worth the cost.

Which collage did you go to
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Old 07-31-2019, 01:29 PM   #333
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College degree holders earn much more, on average, than do high school grads.

If everyone got STEM degrees there'd be no where near enough jobs. Other degrees can open doors just as well. Every year there's another survey where CEOs are praising humanities grads for being flexible and creative.

Unless you're getting a certification, I don't think the degree matters. Skills matter, and you can learn useful skills in a lot of different fields.
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Old 07-31-2019, 01:32 PM   #334
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Opening the door degrees are fine and the college experience is worthwhile beyond that, but nobody should go $100k in debt for it. You can still avoid that through some combination of really kicking ass in high school and attending your state school.

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Old 07-31-2019, 01:51 PM   #335
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Unless you're getting a certification, I don't think the degree matters. Skills matter, and you can learn useful skills in a lot of different fields.

I tell students that it is much better to major in what you love because you will do better at it and, thus, be better positioned going forward.
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Old 07-31-2019, 01:54 PM   #336
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In this day and age it seems like an undergrad degree is largely a four-year test of your abilities to pay attention and take direction. $10-20K total seems appropriate for the large majority of institutions.
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Old 07-31-2019, 02:20 PM   #337
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I think people have to look at the landscape of higher education for what it is. There seem to be a few options:

1. Attend a trade school and start out with a nice salary for a 22-year old. Then use experience to carve out a nice career.

2. "play the game" in high school, do dual enrollment courses for college credit, get good enough grades to qualify for in-state scholarships and try to cut the cost by 50-75% using scholarships and college credits earned in HS.

3. Don't get the best grades or credits in HS, but go to a community college or JC for two years to get your gen EDs taken care of on the cheap. If you do well there, you could qualify for scholarships or state aid to go to a local state school for your last 2-3 years. This also cuts the cost by 50+%.

4-year college is not a right for all people, but there are many ways to get a 4-year degree without having massive debt. You can do items 2 or 3 above, you can have a job, take less classes and use summer school to fill the gaps. You can work a higher paying seasonal job in the summer and winter to help pay your expenses/some of your tuition during the school year. But, if you don't do well in High school, don't dual enroll in some classes or overturn a bunch of stones for college scholarships - 4-year college (esp at private schools) is going to be extremely expensive.

I have a pretty broad cross-section of financial class friends. My work friends are higher wage professionals and they tend to take option 2. My Little League baseball friends tend to be more middle class and a few of them have had their kids go to the CC/JC route and then finish the lass couple years at a state school. There's no reason to end college with 70+K in student loan debt if you aren't wealthy enough to afford it. And just giving a blanket amnesty to people who didn't plan properly is extremely unfair to the 22-year olds who applied themselves in High School or went to a JC, worked while in school and pinched pennies to minimize debt.
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Old 07-31-2019, 02:25 PM   #338
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Which collage did you go to
(just for the record, I know you were joking)

A long time ago, and in a place far,far, away I went to the University of North Dakota.
I have a BS in Comp Sci and another in Applied Mathematics.
It was worth every penny to me.
I spent most of my life as a programmer and loved it.

But it sucks for kids now who will end up in dept to there ears no matter what they major in.
STEM grads have a better chance.
But what if your interests are somewhere else?
You still end up 100k in debt but without a realistic chance to pay it back.
You should be able to follow your interests (finding out what they are is part of collage) and not end up in dept for your entire life.
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Old 07-31-2019, 02:42 PM   #339
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(just for the record, I know you were joking)

A long time ago, and in a place far,far, away I went to the University of North Dakota.
I have a BS in Comp Sci and another in Applied Mathematics.
It was worth every penny to me.
I spent most of my life as a programmer and loved it.

But it sucks for kids now who will end up in dept to there ears no matter what they major in.
STEM grads have a better chance.
But what if your interests are somewhere else?
You still end up 100k in debt but without a realistic chance to pay it back.
You should be able to follow your interests (finding out what they are is part of collage) and not end up in dept for your entire life.

You sure about that worth every penny comment?

It just feels like an I want my cake and ave it too argument. You can study whatever you want. And pay for it. Or you can study what pays and get paid. You can work and have no debt or you can no work and have debt.
But the response seems to be I want to have free college, get a lib arts degree and make millions.

It sounds like conversations with my daughter.
And I want to fly around like a bird, princess. But this is real life. Grow Up.

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Old 07-31-2019, 03:00 PM   #340
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1. Attend a trade school and start out with a nice salary for a 22-year old. Then use experience to carve out a nice career.

2. "play the game" in high school, do dual enrollment courses for college credit, get good enough grades to qualify for in-state scholarships and try to cut the cost by 50-75% using scholarships and college credits earned in HS.

3. Don't get the best grades or credits in HS, but go to a community college or JC for two years to get your gen EDs taken care of on the cheap. If you do well there, you could qualify for scholarships or state aid to go to a local state school for your last 2-3 years. This also cuts the cost by 50+%.

I think one of the biggest rubs is that practically every American adult would agree with this advice and yet it seemingly never gets effectively expressed to the kids. As you're implying, kids should be introduced to these realities before they even start high-school but instead we spend that time blowing smoke up their asses. I had absolutely no clue why I was going to college other than I knew it was culturally expected.
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Old 07-31-2019, 03:00 PM   #341
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You sure about that worth every penny comment?

It just feels like an I want my cake and ave it too argument. You can study whatever you want. And pay for it. Or you can study what pays and get paid. You can work and have no debt or you can no work and have debt.
But the response seems to be I want to have free college, get a lib arts degree and make millions.

It sounds like conversations with my daughter.
And I want to fly around like a bird, princess. But this is real life. Grow Up.
Quote:
Between 1982 and 2019: College tuition experienced an average inflation rate of 6.28% per year. This rate of change indicates significant inflation. In other words, college tuition costing $20,000 in the year 1982 would cost $190,301.27 in 2019 for an equivalent purchase.

I walked away for collage with a couple of thousand in loans. (working part time/summer)
My daughter is screwed, she will end up with about 100k in loans.


YMMV
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Old 07-31-2019, 03:51 PM   #342
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It just feels like an I want my cake and ave it too argument. You can study whatever you want. And pay for it. Or you can study what pays and get paid. You can work and have no debt or you can no work and have debt.
But the response seems to be I want to have free college, get a lib arts degree and make millions.

Why is it bad to have a more educated populace? I understand History and English majors won't make big bucks out of school, but isn't it important to have them in society? What's wrong with the field technician you hire having spent a few years learning about these things before starting their career?
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Old 07-31-2019, 03:57 PM   #343
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Why is it bad to have a more educated populace? I understand History and English majors won't make big bucks out of school, but isn't it important to have them in society? What's wrong with the field technician you hire having spent a few years learning about these things before starting their career?
I think you just have to be smart. If your goal is to have History or English major - then you probably shouldn't go to the most expensive private school out there. Instead, you should focus on getting good grades/scholarships (which I'm guessing a History major is a fairly decent student) and consider the CC/JC route if those don't pan out. I guarantee if someone is interested in Literature, History, English or a similar major, they have the ability to get good enough grades for scholarships either out of HS or after 2 years at a JC.
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Old 07-31-2019, 04:11 PM   #344
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It's not bad to have a more educated populace, but I think the question here is extremely loaded against certain types of education. A few more years working is education, just of a different sort. I don't think a college degree is in any way automatically more valuable than a few years of working on the job, the life experiences that come with that, etc. I'm very much in favor of learning being a lifetime thing, but often the most valuable learning doesn't happen in a classroom.
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Old 07-31-2019, 04:19 PM   #345
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I hope tonight's debate gives us more to talk about regarding the candidates.
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Old 07-31-2019, 05:00 PM   #346
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I absolutely agree that a lot of students are spending too much for college. Some of that is choice, some of that is decreasing spending by state governments, some of that is too high an expectation of services, some of that is bloat at colleges, particularly in administration.

But the degree isn't a problem unless you're talking about advanced degrees. English majors not only can survive, but they can make good money in a variety of careers. We don't think of the lawyer who starts a business as having wasted their education, but for some reason we see that as a problem for the humanities major that does something outside of their college field of study.

Learn skills and you'll be fine whether that's at a four-year college, a two-year college, a trade school, whatever.

And one last point, students should absolutely go to the most expensive school if they can. Those schools are the prestige schools and having a degree from them opens doors. The bigger problem is the lower ranked , high priced schools.
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Old 07-31-2019, 05:49 PM   #347
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It's not bad to have a more educated populace, but I think the question here is extremely loaded against certain types of education. A few more years working is education, just of a different sort. I don't think a college degree is in any way automatically more valuable than a few years of working on the job, the life experiences that come with that, etc. I'm very much in favor of learning being a lifetime thing, but often the most valuable learning doesn't happen in a classroom.

To employers it is. Even low paying jobs require a 4-year degree.

There are a lot of reasons why college is expensive but a big one is governments keep cutting funding to it. Boomers got their degrees, raided all the coffers of the government, and are trying to fix it by fucking the next generation over even more.
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Old 07-31-2019, 06:02 PM   #348
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To employers it is. Even low paying jobs require a 4-year degree.

.

Lets also not forget about all the rip offs out there. The University of Phoenix, etc...that promise a masters in as little as 15 months or whatever. My wife, who I am insanely proud of, is a VP/GM for a Warren Buffet company. She interviews people with degrees from Wharton, etc...for jobs. A "degree" from one of these online places is worthless in her world. a quick google search shows it costs 15K per semester and it isn't worth the paper its printed on in most cases.
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Old 07-31-2019, 06:30 PM   #349
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Lets also not forget about all the rip offs out there. The University of Phoenix, etc...that promise a masters in as little as 15 months or whatever. My wife, who I am insanely proud of, is a VP/GM for a Warren Buffet company. She interviews people with degrees from Wharton, etc...for jobs. A "degree" from one of these online places is worthless in her world. a quick google search shows it costs 15K per semester and it isn't worth the paper its printed on in most cases.

Those schools target military members hard and the government allows them to get away with their scam and fraud. But kneeling is the issue.
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Old 07-31-2019, 06:45 PM   #350
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I always assumed a lot of those degrees were targeted to people who wanted a higher degree to qualify for a promotion or ones that couldnt take a traditional college because of mostly life
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