The Trump Presidency – 2016

[Marc Vaughan]

1) EU countries all-in taxes to employees are much higher than the US
2) EU countries all-in taxes to employers are much higher than the US
3) EU do provide "better" services (e.g. healthcare, education) with the taxes, and they provide "worse" services (e.g. paid days off, difficulty in firing employees)
4) US is still the better country warts and all (I'm obviously biased), there are more pros than cons

Out of interest what makes you say '4' is true - outside of natural patriotism? ...

(asking mainly because in my experience the higher taxes paid in the UK were more than offset by the reduced costs to other areas (ie. healthcare, car insurance etc. being far lower) ... admittedly if I bought more luxury items that might not be the case.

[digamma]

Football?

[AlexB]

Also fairly sure that paid holiday is not true.

The minimum holiday in the UK is 28 days (including 8 bank holiday days, so you could argue it is 20 days). I understood it can be as low as 10 days in the US?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Out of interest what makes you say '4' is true - outside of natural patriotism? ...

(asking mainly because in my experience the higher taxes paid in the UK were more than offset by the reduced costs to other areas (ie. healthcare, car insurance etc. being far lower) ... admittedly if I bought more luxury items that might not be the case.

Definitely patriotism plays a role but ultimately, from an immigrant's point of view, the US is the Land of Opportunity.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by AlexB

Also fairly sure that paid holiday is not true.

The minimum holiday in the UK is 28 days (including 8 bank holiday days, so you could argue it is 20 days). I understood it can be as low as 10 days in the US?

Yes, I do understand that EU countries have more paid holidays/vacation time than the US. I don't know where the "breakeven/optimal" point is for # of paid holidays/vacation/parental leave vs employee/company productivity but, being used to the US, it seems many/most EU are very generous.

For a typical US corporate job, you typically start off with 10 days in the first year and that increases every 5 years or so.

[JPhillips]

Apparently Trump has closed the border at San Ysidro. Not just for people coming in, but also refusing to let anyone leave the USA.

[JPhillips]

And Russia fired at and seized two Ukrainian ships.

[NobodyHere]

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/25/us/sa...sed/index.html

Looks like the caravan has arrived.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/25/us/sa...sed/index.html

Looks like the caravan has arrived.

500 people? - that is one of the busiest crossings in the world between countries and apparently 90,000 people a day come in and out of it, I'd expect that isn't a caravan but people upset as being stuck in a country they might work in or visit but not want to remain in at the end of the day.

San Ysidiro Port of Entry

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

And Russia fired at and seized two Ukrainian ships.

Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. Guess we'll never know, so let's just move on.

[JPhillips]

At least in this instance both the Ukrainians and the Russians are saying it happened. I'd bet Trump seizes on the Russian claim that the Ukrainians were in Russian waters.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

500 people? - that is one of the busiest crossings in the world between countries and apparently 90,000 people a day come in and out of it, I'd expect that isn't a caravan but people upset as being stuck in a country they might work in or visit but not want to remain in at the end of the day.

San Ysidiro Port of Entry

Nope, I think they are here per below or at least 5,000 are.

It's definitely unfortunate and sad (especially another report that said a woman was impaled on a rebar) but this stuff doesn't help their cause, its not going to win more US sympathy for them.

US agents fire tear gas as some migrants try to breach fence

Hundreds of migrants approaching the U.S. border from Mexico were enveloped with tear gas Sunday after several tried to make it past fencing and wire separating the two countries.

Earlier in the morning, a group of Central Americans staged a peaceful march to appeal for the U.S. to speed up the asylum claims process, but their demonstration devolved as they neared the crossing with the U.S. and some saw an opportunity to breach the border.
:
Honduran Ana Zuniga, 23, said she saw other migrants open a small hole in concertina wire at a gap on the Mexican side of a levee, at which point U.S. agents fired tear gas at them.
:
:
U.S. Customs and Border Protection helicopters flew overhead, while U.S. agents held vigil on foot beyond the wire fence in California. The Border Patrol office in San Diego said via Twitter that pedestrian crossings have been suspended at the San Ysidro port of entry at both the East and West facilities. All northbound and southbound traffic was halted.

Earlier Sunday, the group of several hundred migrants pushed past a blockade of Mexican police who were standing guard near the international border crossing. They appeared to easily pass through without using violence, and some of the migrants called on each other to remain peaceful.
:
:
Around 5,000 migrants have been camped in and around a sports complex in Tijuana after making their way through Mexico in recent weeks via caravan. Many hope to apply for asylum in the U.S., but agents at the San Ysidro entry point are processing fewer than 100 asylum petitions a day.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

500 people? - that is one of the busiest crossings in the world between countries and apparently 90,000 people a day come in and out of it, I'd expect that isn't a caravan but people upset as being stuck in a country they might work in or visit but not want to remain in at the end of the day.

San Ysidiro Port of Entry

Whoever they are Mexico is deporting them

Migrant caravan: Mexico to deport group which stormed US border - BBC News

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Isiddiqui

You are moving goalposts (again). Do those people have any issue with people calling the US a Democracy? Because your issue is trying to redefine the popular definition of Democracy, not whether or not people are fine if someone calls it a Republic (which is a more exact definition). In my experience, it's usually the elites or the well-off that go "Actually the US is a Republic, not a Democracy" (generally to defend some undemocratic practice), whereas most regular people refer to the US as a Democracy.

I sorry you think that's what I was doing, and that it appears that way to you. It certainly wasn't my intent. I recently looked up recent polling on the issue, and it was pretty much a perfect 50-50 split when given a choice between republic and democracy. Of course, based on the discussion so far that probably means almost nothing, since it can be waved off just like the poll results vis a vis socialism were.

From my point of view I haven't been the one doing the goal-post moving and twisting of language. I'm very confident that's a case I could prove easily in a court of law or similar environment if it came to that, but it's also clear to me that this discussion unfortunately serves no more useful purpose. When there can't be agreement on what even constitutes the basis for common ground, even if opposing views don't end up being reconciled by the end of a debate, I think furthering it can only result in increased hostility. So I think it's appropriate now for me to just wish you and the rest of the board peace and joy this holiday season, and take a hiatus before I say more things that I would almost certainly end up sorely regretting.

Originally Posted by thesloppy

I feel like the truth that gets reinforced from this conversation is that when American conservatives talk about "Socialism" they are referring almost exclusively to a relatively high tax rate (and the things that lead you there), as opposed to any kind of specific governmental/economic policy.

I'd be careful with that conclusion. So far as that goes I think I've been the only one really making that point, and I'm no way conservative on most economic policy.

[PilotMan]

When Conservatives talk about Socialism they are, in my opinion, exclusively talking about that soundbite, and evoking images of Lenin, Russia, totalitarianism, and the evils of Karl Marx. There can be no other comparison or acceptance of any other kind of definition. Therefore, any person or idea that they paint as Socialist is immediately branded and coded negatively in the person receiving that's brain.



There have been many efforts to change that, from the conversation here, to the politicians themselves, but I don't think it'll achieve what they seek anyway. It may take another 3-4 generations, for the Boomers and X-ers to shuffle off this mortal coil, before there's even a chance. They would have been better off, sticking with a rebrand of a current ideology, rather than inserting that one into a mix of western philosophy, as they are trying now.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

When Conservatives talk about Socialism they are, in my opinion, exclusively talking about that soundbite, and evoking images of Lenin, Russia, totalitarianism, and the evils of Karl Marx. There can be no other comparison or acceptance of any other kind of definition. Therefore, any person or idea that they paint as Socialist is immediately branded and coded negatively in the person receiving that's brain.

TBF, can't the same be said for Liberals when they talk about Trumpism/Nationalism = Facism and the invoking images of Mussolini/Hitler?

There's definitely degrees of Facism with Trump (which can also be said for Bernie and his "socialism") but is it really facism or just a nice "branding" which is "coded negatively in the person receiving" the message.

[Edward64]

A push for the (start of a) Wall before the new Congress takes over.

I guess, unfortunately, not as easy as Trump claimed, who would have thought? Didn't see anything about DACA, not sure what's happening in that front.

Trump’s last, best chance for wall creates latest shutdown threat | TheHill

Congress is returning to Washington with a tight deadline to pass seven spending bills and avert a partial government shutdown over President Trump’s demand that lawmakers fund his wall on the Mexican border.

The partial shutdown will take place on Dec. 7 if Congress does not pass legislation, creating the last chance for Trump to win wall funding before Democrats take over the House majority in January.
:
A new poll from Morning Consult found that 55 percent of registered voters opposed shutting the government down over funding for the wall, while only 31 percent supported it.

Among Republicans, however, just below half supported a shutdown for the wall, while 34 percent opposed it.
:
The House version of the spending bill allocates $5 billion for the wall and was approved without Democratic support. A Senate bill, which has bipartisan support, would provide less — just $1.6 billion. The Senate bill, which is in line with the administration’s original funding request, would build 65 miles of pedestrian fencing along the Rio Grande Valley.

Trump has pushed for as much as $25 billion in wall funding, but those close to negotiations believe that the final compromise in Congress will be close to the Senate bill, or marginally higher.

[PilotMan]

I don't see it that way. Fascism is an extension of a type of authoritarian rule and could be applied to either the far right and far left extremes. So equating that here doesn't necessarily fit. I think there are a lot of other people you could equate trump to without using Hitler/Mussolini. His love or authoritarian/mob style rulers isn't a secret. Besides, we're talking about Republicans using the term Socialism which has been around far longer than trumpism. trumpism, as a name, isn't a philosophy inasmuch as it is a definition for a his leadership style. And it certainly hasn't been around long enough to dig up those old fearful thoughts that have been a part of the fabric of the country for over 70 years.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

I don't see it that way. Fascism is an extension of a type of authoritarian rule and could be applied to either the far right and far left extremes. So equating that here doesn't necessarily fit. I think there are a lot of other people you could equate trump to without using Hitler/Mussolini. His love or authoritarian/mob style rulers isn't a secret. Besides, we're talking about Republicans using the term Socialism which has been around far longer than trumpism. trumpism, as a name, isn't a philosophy inasmuch as it is a definition for a his leadership style. And it certainly hasn't been around long enough to dig up those old fearful thoughts that have been a part of the fabric of the country for over 70 years.

Facism is more specific to right and not the left. It is against liberalism (e.g. the left). Facism has been tossed around by the antifa group as meaning against Trumpism and his version of nationalism.

You are right that Facism could be referred to other than Hitler/Mussolini but I do think that is what the antifa is alluding to, the negative aspect of it. FWIW, Hitler & Mussolini are what pops up when I hear Facism.

Just like I think its unfair to paint Bernie to pure socialism, I think the same when antifa group paint Trump supporters as facists.

My working definition of facism and their tenets are here

Fascism - Wikipedia

[ISiddiqui]

Well GM just announced they are closing 5 plants and cutting 14,000+ jobs (The plants are in Ontario, Detroit, Ohio, Maryland, and Michigan). And right after they announced it, their stock went up 5.6%...

[Edward64]

Nothing about Bowling Green. Guess this means the 2020 mid-engine Corvette is still good to go.

[Thomkal]

George Papadopolous heads to prison today for that very long 14 day (may end up being 12 or 13) prison sentence, fighting it all the way to the end. Hopefully the internet will be a little calmer without his tweets, though his wife will probably take up the slack.

[Atocep]

Former Border Patrol deputy chief defends using pepper spray: You could ‘put it on your nachos and eat it’ | TheHill

If nothing else, this administration has to be proof we're living a simulation.

[albionmoonlight]

He can't even get capitalism right.

I'd bet good money that he'd fail a freshman econ final.

But, hey, let's be sure to keep voting for the GOP, because we all hate socialism so much, right?

Breaking @WSJ
Trump Says He Told GM's CEO to Open New Ohio Plant
Trump said GM should stop making cars in China and open a new plant in Ohio to replace the ones where the company is planning to shutter.
“They better damn well open a new plant there very quickly,” Mr. Trump said.

— John Bussey (@johncbussey) November 26, 2018

[albionmoonlight]

Dola

He's also calling for State TV.

And they gassed children this weekend.

You are for Trump and the GOP, or you are against them.

Pick whichever side you want, but understand that you are picking a side. You either fight this, or you support/enable it.

....and false way. Something has to be done, including the possibility of the United States starting our own Worldwide Network to show the World the way we really are, GREAT!

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) November 26, 2018

[AlexB]

He’s also said he’ll only consider reducing carbon emissions if other countries commit to doing the same.

If only there had been a way that nearly 200 countries could have gotten together in one place and agreed to do just that. For some reason Paris sounds like it might have been a good location...

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

He can't even get capitalism right.

I'd bet good money that he'd fail a freshman econ final.

But, hey, let's be sure to keep voting for the GOP, because we all hate socialism so much, right?

Breaking @WSJ
Trump Says He Told GM's CEO to Open New Ohio Plant
Trump said GM should stop making cars in China and open a new plant in Ohio to replace the ones where the company is planning to shutter.
“They better damn well open a new plant there very quickly,” Mr. Trump said.

— John Bussey (@johncbussey) November 26, 2018

Heh. If that ain't calling for the government to seize the means of production, I don't know what is. The irony is thick.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

Heh. If that ain't calling for the government to seize the means of production, I don't know what is. The irony is thick.

Hey! It worked in WWII!


{I'm not advocating that at all, it's just that people forget that during the War, the government basically dictated to private companies how they were going to operate.}


Further, how are the R's even contemplating standing behind this shit? It goes against everything they've been since I've been alive.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Further, how are the R's even contemplating standing behind this shit? It goes against everything they've been since I've been alive.

Though Repubs and Dems have both gone out of their way to determine what defines the GOP, for better or worse, I think it simply comes down to them being the party of self-interest....which is a remarkably malleable, resilient platform, when it comes to individual voters.

[RainMaker]

Sure seems like Manafort will spend the rest of his life in prison.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/26/u...operation.html

[larrymcg421]

The Dem has pulled ahead in the CA-21st district. Assuming he holds on, which is almost certain based on how the ballots have been breaking, that's a net gain of 40 seats.

[Thomkal]

I just don't understand Manafort-he was given a gift-all that info that would have come out in the second trial goes away and a much shorter sentence, and you throw it all away.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

I just don't understand Manafort-he was given a gift-all that info that would have come out in the second trial goes away and a much shorter sentence, and you throw it all away.

Comes down to he was either a moron, or he figured he could try to split the baby by appearing to cooperate, lying to try to blow up the investigation, and then seek a pardon from Trump after the investigation goes away.

Doesn't help him on the state charges, but maybe by the time Virginia went after him he was already doing whatever it was he thought he was doing.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Dola

He's also calling for State TV.

And they gassed children this weekend.

You are for Trump and the GOP, or you are against them.

Pick whichever side you want, but understand that you are picking a side. You either fight this, or you support/enable it.

Would Trump have to approve any material that appears on USA TV?

Only positive things about him, of course...

That doesn't feel wrong at all.

[Edward64]

Trump is messing up Apple (and other Tech companies) which definitely hurts my 401k & IRAs.

It is an Economic war so I am supportive. If this means Apple and like will have to do more in other low cost Asian countries like Vietnam (go Nike), Malaysia etc., the US consumers will suffer with temporary higher prices or shortages, and my 401k & IRAs take a hit I'm all for it.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/26/trum...rom-china.html

President Donald Trump and China's President Xi Jinping make joint statements at the Great Hall of the People in Beijing, Nov. 9, 2017.
Jonathan Ernst | Reuters

President Donald Trump suggested he could place a 10 percent tariff on iPhones and laptops imported from China, in an interview with the Wall Street Journal published Monday. He also said it's "highly unlikely" that he would delay an increase in tariffs from 10 percent to 25 percent on Jan. 1, just four days before a summit with Chinese President Xi Jinping.

"Maybe. Maybe. Depends on what the rate is," the president said to The Wall Street Journal about the possible iPhone and laptop tariffs. "I mean, I can make it 10 percent, and people could stand that very easily."

Apple stock was down nearly 2 percent in after-hours trading.

Trump said he expects he will increase tariffs on $200 billion of Chinese goods to 25 percent. He will also add $267 billion worth of tariffs onto goods that are not already subjected to existing tariffs if the two countries don't make a deal.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Dola

He's also calling for State TV.

And they gassed children this weekend.

You are for Trump and the GOP, or you are against them.

Pick whichever side you want, but understand that you are picking a side. You either fight this, or you support/enable it.

There are some things I support Trump in and other things I do not. I support Trump on the Wall and his strong push to reduce unauthorized immigration. (However, I definitely do not support the fiasco re: long-term separation of kids from parents that occurred earlier this year).

In this specific situation, assuming the Border agents warned them not to try cross over and they did not heed the warnings, what would you have the Border agents do?

In a perfect world, there would be an orderly processing of their applications at the border. From what I've read, it was a spontaneous mass "jailbreak" to get over the fence (correct me if I'm wrong) which resulting in the gassing. Parents putting their kids in a dangerous situation.

So, if not gas ...

Water canons? Armed troops corralling them after they hopped the fence(s)? Fire warning shots above their heads and if that doesn't work, shoot rubber bullets? or just let them illegally cross and join the approx 11M+ already here?

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Edward64

There are some things I support Trump in and other things I do not. I support Trump on the Wall and his strong push to reduce unauthorized immigration. (However, I definitely do not support the fiasco re: long-term separation of kids from parents that occurred earlier this year).

In this specific situation, assuming the Border agents warned them not to try cross over and they did not heed the warnings, what would you have the Border agents do?

In a perfect world, there would be an orderly processing of their applications at the border. From what I've read, it was a spontaneous mass "jailbreak" to get over the fence (correct me if I'm wrong) which resulting in the gassing. Parents putting their kids in a dangerous situation.

So, if not gas ...

Water canons? Armed troops corralling them after they hopped the fence(s)? Fire warning shots above their heads and if that doesn't work, shoot rubber bullets? or just let them illegally cross and join the approx 11M+ already here?

Yeah I pretty much agree here. You support open borders or you don't. If not then you have to give the means to the personnel guarding the border to repel illegal boarding crossings.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Yeah I pretty much agree here. You support open borders or you don't. If not then you have to give the means to the personnel guarding the border to repel illegal boarding crossings.

The attention brought to it is entirely Trump's creation. This isn't the first time a caravan has reached the border, but since Trump decided to use it as a scare tactic for midterms this one has the spotlight on it and with the treatment of those detained previously everything done is going to be nitpicked. The administration can't create this attention and then cry about the attention it's getting.

It doesn't help that those that support what's going on at the border are on TV saying stupid shit like "you could put tear gas on your nachos".

Even if I supported closed borders I'd have a difficult time supporting the clusterfuck this administration has in the wake of everything it does.

[NobodyHere]

Personally I think the attention given to the border is a good thing and can spur discussion. But lets not pretend that previous administrations reacted so much differently to people rushing the border.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

You are for Trump and the GOP, or you are against them.

Pick whichever side you want, but understand that you are picking a side. You either fight this, or you support/enable it.

Yes. I am open to the possibility of someone not really understanding what's actually happening thanks to the FOX propaganda machine. Past that, nah, its an active choice to be okay with white supremacy and nazis and the pure hatred exhibited by this president and those that accept his ideas on a daily basis for whatever reason.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Personally I think the attention given to the border is a good thing and can spur discussion. But lets not pretend that previous administrations reacted so much differently to people rushing the border.

As I said, it's not the first caravan to reach the border. But if you don't want or can't handle your tactics being nitpicked then maybe don't invite the entire world to pay close attention to how you treat people you have a history of treating inhumanely.

[Thomkal]

We may now know one of the things Manafort was lying about:


Manafort held secret talks with Assange in Ecuadorian embassy | US news | The Guardian

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Facism is more specific to right and not the left. It is against liberalism (e.g. the left). Facism has been tossed around by the antifa group as meaning against Trumpism and his version of nationalism.

You are right that Facism could be referred to other than Hitler/Mussolini but I do think that is what the antifa is alluding to, the negative aspect of it. FWIW, Hitler & Mussolini are what pops up when I hear Facism.

Just like I think its unfair to paint Bernie to pure socialism, I think the same when antifa group paint Trump supporters as facists.

My working definition of facism and their tenets are here

Fascism - Wikipedia

So who you're really talking about here is a loose group, with absolutely no membership card, who's only requirement for joining is to say that they are antifa.

From the article specifically this:

The fascist view of a nation is of a single organic entity that binds people together by their ancestry and is a natural unifying force of people.

You can't really convince me that trump hasn't taken the long way around to get to this spot, or at the very least, dog whistle to others, that this is his belief system.

Fascist states pursued policies of social indoctrination through propaganda in education and the media and regulation of the production of educational and media materials.

trump is all about loyalty and telling people what is right. He just advocated for state run media, and he essentially wishes for control over how he is reported on and who gets their voice heard.

They say that nations and races must purge themselves of socially and biologically weak or degenerate people, while simultaneously promoting the creation of strong people, in order to survive in a world defined by perpetual national and racial conflict.

He hasn't quite gotten here, but his emphasis on being seen as (and what he thinks makes him) strong, national strength, racial conflict, and his actual degrading speech toward people he views as inferior is clearly there.

This doesn't mean that he's to be included in the same category, as there are clearly some differences, however, he is, without question, lighting up a number of talking points, that are critical to the overall identification.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

This doesn't mean that he's to be included in the same category, as there are clearly some differences, however, he is, without question, lighting up a number of talking points, that are critical to the overall identification.

I agree with you here. No doubt there are elements of fascism in Trumpism.

The tenets are:

Nationalism - No argument from me. I would rate this 10/10

Totalitarism

Fascism promotes the establishment of a totalitarian state.[190] It opposes liberal democracy, rejects multi-party systems and supports a one-party state.
:
Fascist states pursued policies of social indoctrination through propaganda in education and the media and regulation of the production of educational and media materials.[193][194] Education was designed to glorify the fascist movement and inform students of its historical and political importance to the nation. It attempted to purge ideas that were not consistent with the beliefs of the fascist movement and to teach students to be obedient to the state.[195]

Social indoctrination, some. Rejects multi-party systems for one-party state, I'm sure he wants to get there with Trump being the one party state but has he rejected this principal of US Democracy/Republic? I'd give this a 5/10 at most.

Economy

Fascism presented itself as a third position,[when?] alternative to both international socialism and free market capitalism.[196] While fascism opposed mainstream socialism, it sometimes regarded itself as a type of nationalist "socialism" to highlight their commitment to national solidarity and unity.[197][198] Fascists opposed international free market capitalism, but supported a type of productive capitalism.[113][199] Economic self-sufficiency, known as autarky, was a major goal of most fascist governments.[200]
:
Fascism condemned what it viewed as widespread character traits that it associated as the typical bourgeois mentality that it opposed, such as materialism, crassness, cowardice, inability to comprehend the heroic ideal of the fascist "warrior";
:
Fascist economics supported a state-controlled economy that accepted a mix of private and public ownership over the means of production.[208]
:
While fascism accepted the importance of material wealth and power, it condemned materialism which identified as being present in both communism and capitalism and criticized materialism for lacking acknowledgement of the role of the spirit.[210] In particular, fascists criticized capitalism not because of its competitive nature nor support of private property, which fascists supported—but due to its materialism, individualism, alleged bourgeois decadence and alleged indifference to the nation.[211]

Trump is as materialistic and decadent as you will get. < 5/10.

Action

Fascism emphasizes direct action, including supporting the legitimacy of political violence, as a core part of its politics.[17][221] Fascism views violent action as a necessity in politics that fascism identifies as being an "endless struggle".[222] This emphasis on the use of political violence means that most fascist parties have also created their own private militias (e.g. the Nazi Party's Brown shirts and Fascist Italy's Blackshirts).

Yup, I'll concede this and say 8/10.

Age & Gender roles

Fascism emphasizes youth both in a physical sense of age and in a spiritual sense as related to virility and commitment to action.[225]
:
Italian Fascism pursued what it called "moral hygiene" of youth, particularly regarding sexuality.[228] Fascist Italy promoted what it considered normal sexual behaviour in youth while denouncing what it considered deviant sexual behaviour.[228] It condemned pornography, most forms of birth control and contraceptive devices (with the exception of the condom), homosexuality and prostitution as deviant sexual behaviour,
:
The German Nazi government strongly encouraged women to stay at home to bear children and keep house.[233]
:
The Nazis said that homosexuality was degenerate, effeminate, perverted and undermined masculinity because it did not produce children.[241]

I don't see this so < 5/10.

Palingenesis and modernism

Fascism emphasizes both palingenesis (national rebirth or re-creation) and modernism.[244] In particular, fascism's nationalism has been identified as having a palingenetic character.[182] Fascism promotes the regeneration of the nation and purging it of decadence.[244]

"National rebirth" yes. Purging it of decadence, don't see it. Another < 5/10


My point is, there are definitely elements of fascism with Trumpism. Does one need to check all the boxes on the tenets above to be called a fascist, no. However, there are some very clear differences between Trump and what we would consider traditional fascism. IMO he has not risen to that level.

To your earlier quote, changing some words, and it still holds true to the other extreme.

When Liberals talk about Fascism they are, in my opinion, exclusively talking about that soundbite, and evoking images of Hitler/Mussolini, Nazi Germany/Italy, and the evils of Hitler/Mussolini. There can be no other comparison or acceptance of any other kind of definition. Therefore, any person or idea that they paint as Fascist is immediately branded and coded negatively in the person receiving that's brain

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Dola

He's also calling for State TV.

And they gassed children this weekend.

You are for Trump and the GOP, or you are against them.

Pick whichever side you want, but understand that you are picking a side. You either fight this, or you support/enable it.

....and false way. Something has to be done, including the possibility of the United States starting our own Worldwide Network to show the World the way we really are, GREAT!

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) November 26, 2018

I don't know how big the reach of Fox News is outside the country, but isn't that more or less state TV? Bill Shine is being paid by the White House and Fox at the same time. Many of the TV personalities float between the WH and their TV gigs. They receive massive tax subsidies which often eliminate their tax liability completely. They'll even send over a script to friendly politicians.

Is it terribly different from something like RT?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

"National rebirth" yes. Purging it of decadence, don't see it. Another < 5/10

I think he's made a pretty hard play toward the "working man". His campaign focused heavily on bringing back factory jobs, coal mining, etc. He trashes the "elite" whether they be lawyers, scientists, or educators.

Sure his narcissism forces him to straddle that line of playing to the working class while propping up his own wealth. But other fascists did the same.

Originally Posted by Edward64

Social indoctrination, some. Rejects multi-party systems for one-party state, I'm sure he wants to get there with Trump being the one party state but has he rejected this principal of US Democracy/Republic? I'd give this a 5/10 at most.

He has called for the jailing of his political opponents. He has declared that elections that don't go the way he likes are rigged. That's pretty totalitarian.

The reason it hasn't gone farther is because we actually have some decent checks and balances on power in this country that others did not have.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

He has called for the jailing of his political opponents. He has declared that elections that don't go the way he likes are rigged. That's pretty totalitarian.

The reason it hasn't gone farther is because we actually have some decent checks and balances on power in this country that others did not have.

As far as I know, Hillary and a little of Feinstein have been the only two and I wouldn't include Feinstein as she is not at his level (it was because of the Kavanaugh/Ford situation). He says much about rigged elections just as Democrats also accuse of voter fraud, suppression etc.

FWIW another person's view re: totalitarian

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.59cd04f2108f

... that Trumpism is totalitarianism’s cousin.”

That kind of rhetoric, along with more straightforward comparisons of Trump to Hitler and Stalin, is threat inflation. Totalitarianism is one of those concepts that eludes simple definition. This is one reason that it has fallen in and out of fashion among political scientists. But it’s generally associated with the subordination, or elimination, of most of civil society in favor of the state, itself run by a single party. So the more totalitarian the system, the less it tolerates independent trade unions, corporations, religious institutions and the like. (Thus the “weaknesses” of civil society in the immediate wake of communist regimes in Eastern and Central Europe.) In China, businesses are “required by law to establish a party organization,” and there are some indications that the government is giving this requirement greater teeth. There’s simply no indication that Trump, or his allies, want, or even dream of, anything along these lines.

[JPhillips]

Trump: "I’m not happy with the Fed. They’re making a mistake because I have a gut, and my gut tells me more sometimes than anybody else’s brain can ever tell me."

My gut tells me he's a con artist.

[Thomkal]

So now his gut is the second smartest person in the room.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

As far as I know, Hillary and a little of Feinstein have been the only two and I wouldn't include Feinstein as she is not at his level (it was because of the Kavanaugh/Ford situation). He says much about rigged elections just as Democrats also accuse of voter fraud, suppression etc.

FWIW another person's view re: totalitarian

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.59cd04f2108f

Well he has been adamant about Clinton, Comey and Feinstein. Has even tossed out Obama's name a number of times. Then you have insinuations about Schiff, Strzok, Page, Ohr, Steele, and McCabe be investigated for crimes. You have calls for Huma and Podesta to be jailed. He even said Kasich and Cruz should go to jail for some made up crime during the primary.

As for the rigged elections, I can't remember a President doing that so openly. Just deciding that because races didn't go their way it must be rigged without a shred of evidence. Lying about the number of illegal votes cast that even his sham investigation couldn't corroborate. There is no comparison in modern American history.

As for the totalitarian part, that's because we have checks and balances. That's because he has never had majority support in this country. The man has praised dictators and discussed how much better it would be if he didn't have to deal with our system. This is not a theory, he's not shy about praising those types of governments and his desire that America be more like it.