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Old 09-09-2009, 07:57 PM   #51
WVUFAN
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Stealing from thieves is still stealing, but it's a victimless "crime". Seeing how the people I would be "stealing" from do not deserve the money they are receiving.

It's more moral, in my opinion, to make copies of movies than to buy them and allow any form of my money to help the thieves. The law be damned -- perhaps when they change the current laws that allow movie studios to steal money for those who earned and deserve it, then I will start obeying the laws that protect the thieves.

To me, it's not about the 20 dollars I could spend buying a movie. It's ALL about the morality.
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Old 09-09-2009, 08:49 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Glengoyne View Post
I can't stop corporations/powerful individuals from ripping off those they do business with. I can stop myself from stealing property that I have no legal right to.

So bad comparison.


But, those who break the laws eventually effect change that help everyone. Big business doesn't just go out of business when they're attacked like this; they adapt.

Thanks to the pirates, I get to listen to Rhapsody for roughly a price of a CD every month. I've paid this for years. I'm totally happy with the deal and the record companies have to be too. I used to buy maybe a CD a year and now they get me buying about 12 of them that I don't really own. As long as they cut in the musicians it's a win all around.

I'm not supporting pirates ( they're not producing anything of value after all ) but the activity of piracy causes companies to adapt to their circumstances and they explore alternative methods of making money off their product which benefits me. I like Netflix on demand too.
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Old 09-11-2009, 03:21 AM   #53
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Stealing is stealing and I don't know how you can say one is worse than the other.
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Old 09-11-2009, 08:05 AM   #54
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I think one of his points has been missed. He's not just arguing that stealing from thieves is not stealing or piracy is better than the behaviour of the publishers but also making the point that if the companies do not pay the royalties then you're not stealing from the artists because they don't get any of your money anyway.

He's trying to answer the anti-piracy argument that piracy steals from the artists not just the rogues running the film/music companies.

Two problems with this:

1) Even if some are, not all artists are ripped off and therefore these will be the victims of the piracy crime

2) those who are ripped off at least have the legal opportunity to sue for their royalties and their claim would be based on turnover. Piracy will reduce that turnover and therefore the claim, and also justification for the claim, made by the artist.

In either case the artist is a victim.

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Old 09-11-2009, 08:11 AM   #55
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If people cared so much about protecting the artists from the parasitic record companies, etc, then they should put their effort into raising awareness and making legislation preventing the great theft that the record companies are perpetrating rather than just saying "Fuck it, I don't want to pay."
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Old 09-11-2009, 09:07 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by WVUFAN View Post
Stealing from thieves is still stealing, but it's a victimless "crime". Seeing how the people I would be "stealing" from do not deserve the money they are receiving.

It's more moral, in my opinion, to make copies of movies than to buy them and allow any form of my money to help the thieves. The law be damned -- perhaps when they change the current laws that allow movie studios to steal money for those who earned and deserve it, then I will start obeying the laws that protect the thieves.

To me, it's not about the 20 dollars I could spend buying a movie. It's ALL about the morality.

By your logic, you would then have no problem if I were to come over and steal your movie collection. I mean, it's a victimless "crime" and I would just stealing from someone who doesn't deserve the movie he receives.

"It's ALL about the morality" - give me a break.
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Old 09-11-2009, 09:34 AM   #57
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Ya, this is not the right way to form a coherent argument. I'm all for the vicious disembowelment of record companies and movie studios, but opposed to piracy, I say if you are truly moral find ways to take over the market. If the artists are being shanked by the executives, create your web-based distribution solution, do your best to get artistic talent at your door, and publish them fairly and take a cut for yourself.

Innovation over deviation is how you get change. Freeloaders or criminals don't have a good track record on promoting their causes.
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Old 09-11-2009, 06:38 PM   #58
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Ya, this is not the right way to form a coherent argument. I'm all for the vicious disembowelment of record companies and movie studios, but opposed to piracy, I say if you are truly moral find ways to take over the market. If the artists are being shanked by the executives, create your web-based distribution solution, do your best to get artistic talent at your door, and publish them fairly and take a cut for yourself.

Innovation over deviation is how you get change. Freeloaders or criminals don't have a good track record on promoting their causes.

Damn, I said I am moral but I'm not that motivated. What now?
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Old 09-11-2009, 07:24 PM   #59
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But, those who break the laws eventually effect change that help everyone. Big business doesn't just go out of business when they're attacked like this; they adapt.

Thanks to the pirates, I get to listen to Rhapsody for roughly a price of a CD every month. I've paid this for years. I'm totally happy with the deal and the record companies have to be too. I used to buy maybe a CD a year and now they get me buying about 12 of them that I don't really own. As long as they cut in the musicians it's a win all around.

I'm not supporting pirates ( they're not producing anything of value after all ) but the activity of piracy causes companies to adapt to their circumstances and they explore alternative methods of making money off their product which benefits me. I like Netflix on demand too.

For me, you hit the nail on the head. Do I think piracy is legal or morally redeeming? No, but I do support the inevitable change it will bring about. Piracy is the result of inefficiencies in the market, whatever they may be, and piracy is the driving force that makes companies change and close these inefficiencies.
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Old 09-12-2009, 08:04 AM   #60
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You're all just kidding yourselves if you think there is any model other than "free" that will make a very large portion of pirates stop pirating.
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Old 05-21-2012, 07:26 PM   #61
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Supreme Court upheld the $675,000 fine for illegally downloading 30 songs

Supreme Court won't reduce student's $675,000 fine for illegally downloading 30 songs | syracuse.com

As much as I think this was excessive, I would demand full payment solely for this comment by the downloader.

Quote:
"I can't believe the system would uphold a six-figure damages amount for downloading 30 songs on a file-sharing system that everybody used,"

No, not "everybody" used or did such things.
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Old 05-21-2012, 07:35 PM   #62
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Maybe Louis CK can do a benefit show for this guy.
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Old 05-21-2012, 07:36 PM   #63
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Wow. $675K is pretty crazy. But then you get to the "During the trial, Tenenbaum admitted he downloaded and shared hundreds of songs by Green Day, Nirvana, The Smashing Pumpkins and others. His lawyer suggested the damages should be as little as 99 cents per song, about the same amount Tenenbaum would have to pay for a legal online song purchase."

The problem is, it's the speeding argument: "Officer I was only doing 10 over, just like everyone else around me". Yes, he was breaking the law. But it seems like a reverse lottery: "sorry, you got picked this time and now you're down more money than you'll ever see in your lifetime". I'd rather the penalty be $1000 and 675 people get caught than 1 at $675K.



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Old 05-21-2012, 07:41 PM   #64
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Old 05-21-2012, 08:00 PM   #65
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I would gladly pay to see game of thrones, but not 3 or 4 bucks an episode. I would gladly get HBO, but I can't afford to pay 70 bucks a month for cable and satellite isn't much cheaper or really that viable an option due to the startup costs. I would gladly buy DVD's, but I can't afford to drop 30 bucks on every movie I want to see and waiting and watching for a sale is something I don't have time for.. Same with music. I would love to buy the CD's I listen to, but I don't have a disposable income at the level it would need to be in order for me to purchase the albums I want to hear. If I made 40k a year, I would own a legal copy of probably 75% of the media I consume. If I could get HBO Go in my area I would. Same thing with Fios or any other streaming media option out there. For me, its a matter of not being able to afford things rather than trying to stick it to the man. I did pay for the Louis C.K. standup however, and hopefully the success of that will serve as a notice for "The big wigs" that there are other more viable and cheaper options these days to sell and promote your product.
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Old 05-21-2012, 08:11 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Buccaneer View Post
Supreme Court upheld the $675,000 fine for illegally downloading 30 songs

Supreme Court won't reduce student's $675,000 fine for illegally downloading 30 songs | syracuse.com

As much as I think this was excessive, I would demand full payment solely for this comment by the downloader.



No, not "everybody" used or did such things.

Minor nitpick--and likely stems from his quote--but the Supreme Court didn't really "uphold" this decision. It hears relatively few cases every year, so a denial of cert tells us little about the merits of the case. You need more than a wrongly decided ruling from a Court of Appeals to get to the Supreme Court.
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Old 05-21-2012, 08:16 PM   #67
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It's good to see that nearly ten years after they lost the war, the media companies are still fighting. I like the dedication of people who stick to their guns in spite of the reality.
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Old 05-21-2012, 08:41 PM   #68
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Minor nitpick--and likely stems from his quote--but the Supreme Court didn't really "uphold" this decision. It hears relatively few cases every year, so a denial of cert tells us little about the merits of the case. You need more than a wrongly decided ruling from a Court of Appeals to get to the Supreme Court.

The AP always words that in a confusing way too. Either they don't understand it, or they're trying to make it seem like bigger news than it is.
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Old 05-21-2012, 09:00 PM   #69
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Meh. He'll just declare bankruptcy and the music industry's public perception grows even worse. Well done guys.
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Old 05-21-2012, 09:02 PM   #70
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Eh, people hate the music industry anyway, that's why they download songs in the first place, remember? It's not because they want free music, it's because they're making moral statements against the industry or something. We've had a lot of threads on this.
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Old 05-22-2012, 11:47 AM   #71
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I would gladly pay to see game of thrones, but not 3 or 4 bucks an episode. I would gladly get HBO, but I can't afford to pay 70 bucks a month for cable and satellite isn't much cheaper or really that viable an option due to the startup costs. I would gladly buy DVD's, but I can't afford to drop 30 bucks on every movie I want to see and waiting and watching for a sale is something I don't have time for.. Same with music. I would love to buy the CD's I listen to, but I don't have a disposable income at the level it would need to be in order for me to purchase the albums I want to hear. If I made 40k a year, I would own a legal copy of probably 75% of the media I consume. If I could get HBO Go in my area I would. Same thing with Fios or any other streaming media option out there. For me, its a matter of not being able to afford things rather than trying to stick it to the man. I did pay for the Louis C.K. standup however, and hopefully the success of that will serve as a notice for "The big wigs" that there are other more viable and cheaper options these days to sell and promote your product.

So wait...I don't understand. You currently go without these things, or you download these things anyway?

I mean, I would "gladly" buy a BMW, but I don't have the money.
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Old 05-22-2012, 11:51 AM   #72
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It's good to see that nearly ten years after they lost the war, the media companies are still fighting. I like the dedication of people who stick to their guns in spite of the reality.

It reminds me of those Japanese soldiers they'd find on some remote island in the Pacific 30 years after the end of WW2, still keeping guard.
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Old 05-22-2012, 12:17 PM   #73
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I would gladly pay to see game of thrones, but not 3 or 4 bucks an episode. I would gladly get HBO, but I can't afford to pay 70 bucks a month for cable and satellite isn't much cheaper or really that viable an option due to the startup costs. I would gladly buy DVD's, but I can't afford to drop 30 bucks on every movie I want to see and waiting and watching for a sale is something I don't have time for.. Same with music. I would love to buy the CD's I listen to, but I don't have a disposable income at the level it would need to be in order for me to purchase the albums I want to hear. If I made 40k a year, I would own a legal copy of probably 75% of the media I consume. If I could get HBO Go in my area I would. Same thing with Fios or any other streaming media option out there. For me, its a matter of not being able to afford things rather than trying to stick it to the man. I did pay for the Louis C.K. standup however, and hopefully the success of that will serve as a notice for "The big wigs" that there are other more viable and cheaper options these days to sell and promote your product.

Because the cost of producing Game of Thrones is the same as the cost of taping a Louie CK standup act.

Also, the CK special is $5 for a 62 minute show (12:24 per $1). An episode of Game of Thrones is $4 for a 55 minute show (13:54 per $1)

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Old 05-22-2012, 12:38 PM   #74
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Dont bring logic into this. Theres no way to argue against "i want it free and i can get it for free so nyah nyah nayh to those who want my money" by using logic.
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Old 05-22-2012, 12:41 PM   #75
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Oh this seems like a harmless conversation. Should be full of reasoned and rational discussion.

But more seriously, pirating is unreliable and a ton of work that I'd prefer not to invest. So I'd just always prefer access to the content that I'd gladly pay for. Continual innovations in this arena have been wonderful from Netflix to other things. Otherwise, I'll look for other solutions. It's that simple. I don't ever torrent for things anymore, because between iTunes/Redbox/Netflix and Amazon among other sources, I can usually find what I want. I'm more of a music guy, so it'd be different I think if we were in the Luddite-leading world that still wasn't ready for a Spotify/Rdio/Rhapsody scenario where I can get access to music in gobs.

But yes, let's use this discussion as a chance to talk about the beauty and wonders of strong arm statism and how we should always defer in favor of the hegemon.
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Old 05-22-2012, 12:55 PM   #76
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But more seriously, pirating is unreliable and a ton of work that I'd prefer not to invest. So I'd just always prefer access to the content that I'd gladly pay for. Continual innovations in this arena have been wonderful from Netflix to other things. Otherwise, I'll look for other solutions. It's that simple. I don't ever torrent for things anymore, because between iTunes/Redbox/Netflix and Amazon among other sources, I can usually find what I want. I'm more of a music guy, so it'd be different I think if we were in the Luddite-leading world that still wasn't ready for a Spotify/Rdio/Rhapsody scenario where I can get access to music in gobs.

This.

But mostly, I think it just means that we're older and lazier than we were five years ago and make twice as much money, DC.
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Old 05-22-2012, 01:04 PM   #77
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I consider myself a moral person. I have and will continue to download music, tv shows, movies, games etc until the day it becomes impossible not to and I don't feel the slightest bit bad about it.
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Old 05-22-2012, 01:05 PM   #78
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Piracy is pretty simple. It takes about 3 seconds to set up a show to auto-torrent. Not to mention the myriad of websites that have tv shows just sitting on them. Heck, I have plugins on my XBMC install that let me just click to thousands of shows and movies in seconds.

That being said, my Tivo means I can record 99.9% of the shows I watch, Redbox/Blockbusterexpress means I can rent movies with promo codes (I haven't intentionally paid for a movie in 3+ years), and Pandora/Spotify means I get pretty much any music I want for $10 a month (and I have everything else I think I want that isn't available on there).

Counting cable/Tivo/Spotify/Redbox, I pay right at $100 a month for pretty much any movie, music, or tv show I want.
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Old 05-22-2012, 01:08 PM   #79
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The pirating industry must be really suffering with all these legal options for things.

I don't think regular consumer-pirating is any kind of big deal in a moral sense at all but I'm not taking the next step and anointing them as techno-patriots who deserve credit for technological innovations. The smarter, better run companies can evolve and survive but that doesn't morally justify the acts that bring that on. At the end of the day, those who pay are still subsidizing the entertainment for those who don't. Which isn't a big deal either, shit isn't that expensive, and it's just entertainment anyway, our "pay if you want to model" isn't the worst thing in the world. I just wish people weren't so disingenuous about it.

Edit: And I've actually found that I enjoy stuff more if acquire it legally. There was examples in previous threads about this about "that guy" from college who made it his life ambition to burn EVERY movie ever, but never even seemed to watch them. I think there's something to that.

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Old 05-22-2012, 01:12 PM   #80
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I consider myself a moral person. I have and will continue to download music, tv shows, movies, games etc until the day it becomes impossible not to and I don't feel the slightest bit bad about it.

Well yeah. A person who consider themselves amoral would probably be tough to find, period, no matter what laws they break.
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Old 05-22-2012, 01:14 PM   #81
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This.

But mostly, I think it just means that we're older and lazier than we were five years ago and make twice as much money, DC.

Hahaha...basically.
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Old 05-22-2012, 01:14 PM   #82
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Oh this seems like a harmless conversation. Should be full of reasoned and rational discussion.

Sorry, ill flat out admit i have a small amount of trouble not being a smartass about this stuff. To at least explain i should point out that I work on tv shows, virtually none of which i can imagine people bothering to pirate, and my brother works on films that certainly do get pirated which directly affects his paycheck since the films gross is directly tied into his possible year end bonus.

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Old 05-22-2012, 01:17 PM   #83
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Well yeah. A person who consider themselves amoral would probably be tough to find, period, no matter what laws they break.

Humans are incredible at justifying their behaviors. It pretty much takes a sociopath to continue to do an activity they fully recognize as immoral. Even rapists and murderers tend to see their actions as the product of drugs, or a bad upbringing, or society, or 'she was asking for it". (I'm not comparing the actions of murders and rapists to pirates, of course, pirating is more like not paying a parking meter when you know there's no chance you'll get caught, it's just amusing to me to see the criminal mindset at that lower scale.)

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Old 05-22-2012, 01:21 PM   #84
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That's the rub. I don't consider what I'm doing to be immoral. I have reasons why I don't feel bad about it, but there isn't sense in stating them because if you think pirating=stealing=bad then there isn't anything I could say to you to change your mind.
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Old 05-22-2012, 01:22 PM   #85
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Sorry, ill flat out admit i have a small amount of trouble not being a smartass about this stuff. To at least explain i should point out that I work on tv shows, virtually none of which i can imagine people bothering to pirate, and my brother works on films that certainly do get pirated which directly affects his paycheck since the films gross is directly tied into his possible year end bonus.

How many of those films get pirated because it costs $13 to see a movie for people in NYC? FTR, I don't pirate movies...and I go to a movie theater maybe twice a year.

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Old 05-22-2012, 01:25 PM   #86
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How many of those films get pirated because it costs $13 to see a movie for people in NYC?

Whats your point? How many TVs get stolen from electronics stores just because they cost hundred of dollars? How many people steal cable just because its too damned expensive? We could do this all day with increasingly ridiculous examples but it doesnt make it ok to take something just because you think its too expensive. people could always wait a little while and see it at a cheaper theater.
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Old 05-22-2012, 01:41 PM   #87
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How many of those films get pirated because it costs $13 to see a movie for people in NYC? FTR, I don't pirate movies...and I go to a movie theater maybe twice a year.

Things like movies in theaters, boxing/wrestling/mma PPVs and computer/video games definitely "seem" more expensive than they should be. But I understand the mentality and what the higher price points work. You're trying to sell a product to someone who could get the same thing for free. So the people who are actually paying, are, for whatever reason, choosing to pay. If they're willing to pay $8 instead of $0, or $30 instead of $0, they're probably willing to pay $12 instead of $8 and $45 instead of $30. That only goes so far, of course, but you got to get the money from somewhere, and it goes to my point about the paying customers subsidizing the non-paying customers. Which, is, ultimately the choice of both. And ya, maybe if everybody chose not to pay, the old ways would collapse more quickly, and there would be some benefits to the consumer to that, but you could say that about almost any kind of theft.

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Old 05-22-2012, 01:57 PM   #88
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Let me ask you a question. I pay $100 a month for cable. I watching NOTHING on tv except for live sporting events. I would gladly pay a reduced fee for a specific set of channels but I don't have that option. Is it fair for me to even things out on my own?

I'm essentially paying to watch college football games since I could watch NFL OTA, (I pay for the Baseball package and pay gladly), and a select few NBA & NHL games come playoff time that aren't available OTA. Is that worth $1200 a year? No it's not. But I have no other option so I pay it. My money is out there, it's going in somebodies pocket. There's a reason they don't want to offer packages where you can pay $2 or $3 a month for a certain channel, because they'd stop making money hand over fist. And that's fine. But I'm not gonna feel bad about downloading 50 or 60 movies a year instead of spending $5 to order or rent them. Same goes with TV. I pay for cable, I am not gonna feel bad about downloading a tv show instead of watching it.
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Old 05-22-2012, 02:01 PM   #89
chadritt
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I dont get it, if you pay for cable why are you downloading tv shows instead of watching them on your tv? It sounds like you do watch tv shows other than sports so why NOT watch them legally since youre paying for the ability to do so?
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Old 05-22-2012, 02:03 PM   #90
Suicane75
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Because I don't want to be limited to watching a certain show at a certain time. It's so much easier for me to sit down every evening, download the shows I want, and watch them whenever right off of my computer.
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Old 05-22-2012, 02:09 PM   #91
digamma
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Million dollar idea: recording devices built into your cable box that allow you to digitally record shows and watch them at your leisure. Maybe you could even program which shows to record ahead of time.

Who is in?
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Old 05-22-2012, 02:12 PM   #92
digamma
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Also, last time I went to Subway, I didn't eat the last three inches of my five dollar foot long, so this time, I just took some chips to even it out.
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Old 05-22-2012, 02:14 PM   #93
chadritt
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Originally Posted by Suicane75 View Post
Because I don't want to be limited to watching a certain show at a certain time. It's so much easier for me to sit down every evening, download the shows I want, and watch them whenever right off of my computer.

Get a DVR, theyre not expensive, and watch things the easy way. I get home from work between 9 and 10pm every night and i still get to watch stuff on my nice TV instead of my laptop monitor.
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Old 05-22-2012, 02:14 PM   #94
Suicane75
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What difference would it make? Oh yeah, I'd be paying them an extra $120 a year.
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Old 05-22-2012, 02:15 PM   #95
larrymcg421
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Million dollar idea: recording devices built into your cable box that allow you to digitally record shows and watch them at your leisure. Maybe you could even program which shows to record ahead of time.

Who is in?

I'm sure if they had such mystical devices they would a) cost too much money b) be too much of a hassle to use or c) any other excuse that justifies stealing.
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Old 05-22-2012, 02:16 PM   #96
Suicane75
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I watch them on my computer because it's easier for me and it's the way I like to do it.
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Old 05-22-2012, 02:17 PM   #97
larrymcg421
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What difference would it make? Oh yeah, I'd be paying them an extra $120 a year.

The difference would be that you're not stealing and you're not risking a $675,000 fine for downloading 5 seasons of Gossip Girl.
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Old 05-22-2012, 02:18 PM   #98
molson
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What difference would it make? Oh yeah, I'd be paying them an extra $120 a year.

I think your honesty on this is refreshing and I don't have any huge moral problem with it or anything, but this definitely does put a dent in others' justification that "if only there were a legal/convenient means to get something we'd pay for it."

It's interesting to me too that that the justifications for piracy have evolved. We've definitely had threads here where people have strongly argued that piracy has no impact on anyone's business because they wouldn't have bought the stuff if they didn't pirate it. I don't see that argument as much anymore. Now, the bigger argument seems to be the opposite, inconsistent one, that not only does piracy impact the entertainment industry, but it impacts it in a positive way for the consumer, and it even helps propel content delivery technology forward. And then there's a few people being honest like you who can admit, "this way I spend less money".

Last edited by molson : 05-22-2012 at 02:19 PM.
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Old 05-22-2012, 02:19 PM   #99
Suicane75
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Also, last time I went to Subway, I didn't eat the last three inches of my five dollar foot long, so this time, I just took some chips to even it out.

Subway isn't charging you for a meal that you know you're only going to eat 1/1000th of with no place else to get food.
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Old 05-22-2012, 02:20 PM   #100
digamma
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Subway isn't charging you for a meal that you know you're only going to eat 1/1000th of with no place else to get food.

I don't know of any other restaurant that serves a 9 inch sub. That's what I want. It's easier for me.
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