BTW I watched Monday War

[Flasch186]

..and it was back to the usual crapfest. they had an opportunity coming off of the heels of supposedly a great PPV and blew it. Why oh why do they allow the spiral to continue? Wont someone at the top drop the ego and see the reality? Perhaps I should fly up there for a month to get the train back on the tracks...

[SFL Cat]

??? WTF are you talking about?

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

??? WTF are you talking about?

if you dont know you're not supposed to know...shhh, exit now before you know too much

[ShaefIllini]

Do you mean Raw??

[SFL Cat]

Oh....wrasslin'

[duckman]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

..and it was back to the usual crapfest. they had an opportunity coming off of the heels of supposedly a great PPV and blew it. Why oh why do they allow the spiral to continue? Wont someone at the top drop the ego and see the reality? Perhaps I should fly up there for a month to get the train back on the tracks...

It was ECW One Night Stand. It wasn't supposed to be a running storyline because of the dangers of the matches. Look at Tommy Dreamer. He had a seperated shoulder and a lacerated ear after the match. Also, Vinnie learned his lesson about constantly using high risk matches. Because of the Attitude era, they got several of their superstars (Angle, Austin, Benoit, Edge....) with neck fusions.

I would had like to see more matches, but the Angle appearance made up for it. It got him out of that shitty Sharmel angle he was in. It also set a bunch of potential main event match-ups (HHH, Batista, HBK). Personally, I like what they have done with the draft lottery.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by duckman

It was ECW One Night Stand. It wasn't supposed to be a running storyline because of the dangers of the matches. Look at Tommy Dreamer. He had a seperated shoulder and a lacerated ear after the match. Also, Vinnie learned his lesson about constantly using high risk matches. Because of the Attitude era, they got several of their superstars (Angle, Austin, Benoit, Edge....) with neck fusions.

I would had like to see more matches, but the Angle appearance made up for it. It got him out of that shitty Sharmel angle he was in. It also set a bunch of potential main event match-ups (HHH, Batista, HBK). Personally, I like what they have done with the draft lottery.

its NOT about the matches...they couldve continued the eat, used the built in storylines...bring in blue meanie to start attacking JBL, start banding ECW guys together in a mutiny, have Paul Heyman begin to conspire against Vince, have stuff go on thats "not so obvious" like an ECW guy pulling punches against another ECW guy and maybe Lawler begins to notice and say some things, perhaps an ECW guy is late to a show and cant explain why, perhaps Mick Foley is seen around, perhaps a paycheck isnt cashed from WWE and Vince wants to know why, perhaps Stephanie says to Vince "Dad you think I can have some more control over Smackdown?" and Vince says no, perhaps Paul is seen with an ECW sticker in his wallet, perhaps more ECW signs keep showing up and security tries to take them, perhaps, perhaps, but instead we'll get HHH vs. Jericho vs. Batista vs. edge in a super duper match with silly build up, worse acting, and the fans will continue to stay away. An ECW revolt....group warfare is the best way to build heat, THAN split off feuds from that.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Face it folks, when me & Flasch start agreeing, it's either a very good idea OR a sign of the impending Apocalypse (or both).

[duckman]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

its NOT about the matches...they couldve continued the eat, used the built in storylines...bring in blue meanie to start attacking JBL, start banding ECW guys together in a mutiny, have Paul Heyman begin to conspire against Vince, have stuff go on thats "not so obvious" like an ECW guy pulling punches against another ECW guy and maybe Lawler begins to notice and say some things, perhaps an ECW guy is late to a show and cant explain why, perhaps Mick Foley is seen around, perhaps a paycheck isnt cashed from WWE and Vince wants to know why, perhaps Stephanie says to Vince "Dad you think I can have some more control over Smackdown?" and Vince says no, perhaps Paul is seen with an ECW sticker in his wallet, perhaps more ECW signs keep showing up and security tries to take them, perhaps, perhaps, but instead we'll get HHH vs. Jericho vs. Batista vs. edge in a super duper match with silly build up, worse acting, and the fans will continue to stay away. An ECW revolt....group warfare is the best way to build heat, THAN split off feuds from that.

The Blue Meanie?! He was in the WWE already and flopped. You want an improved product? Here are my ideas:

1) Continue to elevate Christian. The guy is a natural heel, have good mic skills, and can carry his load in the ring. This program with Cena is going to be pure gold.

2) After the HIAC match, HHH needs to drop down to the midcard for a few months while letting Batista start a program with Angle. Angle is one of the wrestlers on the roster and deserves a title shot.

3) Don't move Batista to Smackdown! I got a feeling that they will because HHH wants to keep being a main eventer even though it's stale. This is the main problem with the lack of fans.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by duckman

The Blue Meanie?! He was in the WWE already and flopped. You want an improved product? Here are my ideas:

1) Continue to elevate Christian. The guy is a natural heel, have good mic skills, and can carry his load in the ring. This program with Cena is going to be pure gold.

2) After the HIAC match, HHH needs to drop down to the midcard for a few months while letting Batista start a program with Angle. Angle is one of the wrestlers on the roster and deserves a title shot.

3) Don't move Batista to Smackdown! I got a feeling that they will because HHH wants to keep being a main eventer even though it's stale. This is the main problem with the lack of fans.

you miss the point....all of these may be good ideas BUT no one cares because the:

1. acting is so horrible

2. the buildup is so lackluster

3. the same crap happens over and over again


The wrestling is about 25% of the product the show is 75%. when the 75% sucks, even an incredible 25% will only last so long before me and Jon and millions of others, who would watch, dont.


BTW - Blue meanie NEVER had this kind of natural heat, this kind of natural fan base, and this kind of potential. IT would be the easiest 5 months of story and one that 75-100% of the fans would be...here it is, swallow it because it is everything.......EMOTIONALLY INVOLVED IN. Its not rocket science...its easy.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by duckman

The Blue Meanie?! He was in the WWE already and flopped. You want an improved product? Here are my ideas:

1) Continue to elevate Christian. The guy is a natural heel, have good mic skills, and can carry his load in the ring. This program with Cena is going to be pure gold.

2) After the HIAC match, HHH needs to drop down to the midcard for a few months while letting Batista start a program with Angle. Angle is one of the wrestlers on the roster and deserves a title shot.

3) Don't move Batista to Smackdown! I got a feeling that they will because HHH wants to keep being a main eventer even though it's stale. This is the main problem with the lack of fans.

BTW - Elevate Christian?! It could be "Elevate Person X"...it wont matte til they fix the tracks its running on.

BTW - After the HIAC match, blah blah blah blah blah....no one will care because the stories are so bad. there are times no one cares who the champion is but care more about other people on the roster because theyre better actors, the heat is more real, and the two characters allow the audience to care.

BTW - Stop dividing the roster between smackdown and RAW or at least let them crossover more readily (this would be another great opportunity to have ECW guys showing up all over the place and Vince being pissed and not knowing why this keeps happening), dividing the roster alienates a great portion of audience form character development...


...how 'bout that Jon

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

Its not rocket science...its easy.

Well, it's easy for anyone who has the slightest understanding of effective storyline psychology ... which hasn't included anyone on VinnyMac's payroll in ages (or at least not that was allowed to write).

Memphis, Knoxville, Charlotte, Atlanta, Kansas City, Tampa, those who know what happened, how it was portrayed, how it was sold, in those markets understand. Hell, those who grew up with the great LA T-Birds roller derby know how it is sold.

Alas, I doubt those references mean much to the collection of hacks the WWE has as writers.

edit to add: It's even more tragic in a lot of ways than the death-by-suffocation that McMahon is putting wrestling through since the monopoly began. Here he is, with the opportunity of a lifetime, to collect the great minds & talents all in one place, with more resources than any of them ever dreamed of having, all he has to do is stay out of their way enough to allow them to work their magic. But his ego will never allow it.

[TLK]

As probably the biggest fan of ECW ever.... The Meanie couldn't draw a dime. How would you explain the Meanie/Bradshaw angle on televison? Those worked-shoot angles worked out well for WCW.

It will never happen, but I think the WWF(e) should give the ECW brand a shot. They already seem to be burying Smackdown, so why not go the whole way. Let ECW have the slot and use the talent already under contract, along with some indy talent. Seems like it's worth a shot to me, and hell I might actually have to start watching wrestling again if they did that....

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by TheLionKing

Let ECW have the slot and use the talent already under contract, along with some indy talent. Seems like it's worth a shot to me, and hell I might actually have to start watching wrestling again if they did that....

Agreed, booked in the ECW style, it would bring me back in a heartbeat.

One change from what you said though ... don't "let them have the slot" ... let us seem the "takethe slot".

The end of one night stand, Austin's comment to Misterio ("he screwed you over too"), they know just what nerves are still raw on a lot of departed fans -- so tickle that nerve, keep us interested, it wouldn't be difficult.

The payoff comes when ECW, flying its old colors & much of its old roster, moves into the slot permanently. Hell, there's 6 months worth of storyline in that transition alone.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by TheLionKing

As probably the biggest fan of ECW ever.... The Meanie couldn't draw a dime. How would you explain the Meanie/Bradshaw angle on televison? Those worked-shoot angles worked out well for WCW.
.

This is what i mean by Easy, watch...


JBL match, Meanie comes out of the crowd and attacks him. "WHY?!"

Next week on RAW the shot is playe don the jumbotron and all the talk ensues but Meanie cant be found, he certainly isnt around tonight.

But JBL is nervous cuz Meanie came out of nowhere...

The next week JBL is doing an Interview and an ECW guy perhaps sandman is in the audience or Dreamer and just sits there and JBLloses cuz of it.

The next week there is blue spray paint on JBLs in ring clothing and he has to wear it or else he'll be counted out.

JBL is starting to lose it and the scar on Meanies face is everywhere, from signs in the crowd to commercials "explaining why JBL is losing it."

Perhaps the next week, that song somebody's watching me plays over a montage of JBL watching over his back, and Heyman is seen smiling.

NOw Meanie shows up the next week, we think, and Heyman is late to his segment.

The next week JBL does an in-ring calling out Meanie but Vince says it wont happen, he's not letting some guy not on the roster show up.

The next week, steph asks for more control over Smackdown perhaps. NO.

The next week, JBL is attacked in the parking lot.

The next week, Heyman doesnt show up but calls Vince to say he had a death in family and couldnt make it. He'll make it up to him.

The next week, JBL IS attacked in the Ring by Meanie and a former ECW guy, perhaps Franchise or something...

The next week JBL is going to the ring to do an interview and in the middle the lights go out, and an AWESOME BLUE tinted intro plays and Meanie comes out and stand on the walkway but security is there to take him away.

OH AND MEANIE'S CLOTHES AREN'T SILLY!!!!!! THAT IS IMPORTANT.




you see where this is going, im getting goose bumps just writing it. Allow it itme, allow it to grow, allow the audience to enjoy the build up....

heres what we would get under the current writing if they decided to do this:

JBL is attacked by Meanie in the back and JBL does awfully in his acting.

The next week Meanie asks for a match, they say no.

The next week JBL is attacked. he asks for a match. they say yes. MAtch ensues. Meanie loses. end of story woop dee doo.

[Flasch186]

this could be the start of Jon's Extreme Thursday Night's....

[CraigSca]

Wait - are you guys saying wrestling isn't REAL?!

[Flasch186]

oh and Meanie would have to drop the nice guy moniker and be pissed off...Id view the ECW guys as pissed off and looking to get back at Vince and the entire WWE, but they must allow it time to bloom, allow the audience to fall in love with the story.

[Suicane75]

You seem to be missing the basis of Meanies character, he's a goof, a big blue goof off.

There was never gonna be any immediate followup but they spent all day Monday in meetings deciding on where to go forward so I wasn't that dissapointed that nothing happened. Now if nothing happens in the next few weeks...........

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

This is what i mean by Easy, watch...


JBL match, Meanie comes out of the crowd and attacks him. "WHY?!"

Next week on RAW the shot is playe don the jumbotron and all the talk ensues but Meanie cant be found, he certainly isnt around tonight.

But JBL is nervous cuz Meanie came out of nowhere...

The next week JBL is doing an Interview and an ECW guy perhaps sandman is in the audience or Dreamer and just sits there and JBLloses cuz of it.

The next week there is blue spray paint on JBLs in ring clothing and he has to wear it or else he'll be counted out.

JBL is starting to lose it and the scar on Meanies face is everywhere, from signs in the crowd to commercials "explaining why JBL is losing it."

Perhaps the next week, that song somebody's watching me plays over a montage of JBL watching over his back, and Heyman is seen smiling.

NOw Meanie shows up the next week, we think, and Heyman is late to his segment.

The next week JBL does an in-ring calling out Meanie but Vince says it wont happen, he's not letting some guy not on the roster show up.

The next week, steph asks for more control over Smackdown perhaps. NO.

The next week, JBL is attacked in the parking lot.

The next week, Heyman doesnt show up but calls Vince to say he had a death in family and couldnt make it. He'll make it up to him.

The next week, JBL IS attacked in the Ring by Meanie and a former ECW guy, perhaps Franchise or something...

The next week JBL is going to the ring to do an interview and in the middle the lights go out, and an AWESOME BLUE tinted intro plays and Meanie comes out and stand on the walkway but security is there to take him away.

OH AND MEANIE'S CLOTHES AREN'T SILLY!!!!!! THAT IS IMPORTANT.




you see where this is going, im getting goose bumps just writing it. Allow it itme, allow it to grow, allow the audience to enjoy the build up....

heres what we would get under the current writing if they decided to do this:

JBL is attacked by Meanie in the back and JBL does awfully in his acting.

The next week Meanie asks for a match, they say no.

The next week JBL is attacked. he asks for a match. they say yes. MAtch ensues. Meanie loses. end of story woop dee doo.

Thats a little far fetched for a 3 month storyline. I would love for them to build up long awesome storylines, but leave the freakin meanie out of it. I think a great wrestling show can be just as important as the backstage antics. Its all about taste.

BTW, you made a fatal flaw in your storyline that has been killing the WWE for a long time now. You invented a rule that has never existed, will never exist, and is just silly. The WWE have done it for ages and it has backfired every time. There is no rule that JBL has to wrestle in his ring attire. Hell, as far as the "rules" state he could wrestling in his tighty whiteys and a cowboy hat. In that situation, instead of counting him out on some make believe rule, he would just have wrestled in his suit.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by dubb93

Thats a little far fetched for a 3 month storyline. I would love for them to build up long awesome storylines, but leave the freakin meanie out of it. I think a great wrestling show can be just as important as the backstage antics. Its all about taste.

BTW, you made a fatal flaw in your storyline that has been killing the WWE for a long time now. You invented a rule that has never existed, will never exist, and is just silly. The WWE have done it for ages and it has backfired every time. There is no rule that JBL has to wrestle in his ring attire. Hell, as far as the "rules" state he could wrestling in his tighty whiteys and a cowboy hat. In that situation, instead of counting him out on some make believe rule, he would just have wrestled in his suit.

counted out if'n he doesnt come to the ring...i kniow he can wrestle in whatever he wants. too funny, you think something is far fetched in WWE.....trust me, this is exactly what MOST of the audiences want, involved, emotional, open, storylines.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

You seem to be missing the basis of Meanies character, he's a goof, a big blue goof off.

Sui, that is what make emotional involvement. Take the facest face and make HIM the heelest heel. If you dont work with extremes on the character arc, the audience wont care. Meanie is PERFECT to be a "seriously pissed off" catalyst for an ECW revolt.

[Joe]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

Sui, that is what make emotional involvement. Take the facest face and make HIM the heelest heel. If you dont work with extremes on the character arc, the audience wont care. Meanie is PERFECT to be a "seriously pissed off" catalyst for an ECW revolt.

if they did that with someone, it should be someone that can actually wrestle and doesn't suck.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by George W Bush

if they did that with someone, it should be someone that can actually wrestle and doesn't suck.

it wouldnt be hard to involve LOTS of different things, the meanie/JBL thing could be just one facet. BUT I PROMISE, the fans would be hugely behind Meanie in this and eventually could be behind JBL and his fear if they do it right.

[jbmagic]

flasch 186


did sim game will be what you need

http://www.greydogsoftware.com/tew/

[Suicane75]

Flasch, i love your passion, just not your ideas, but it's cool.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by jbmagic

flasch 186


did sim game will be what you need

http://www.greydogsoftware.com/tew/

is this that new game...if so i bought it, and never could get it to work.
PLUS I couldnt get the real stuff in the game and playing with fake names killed me.

no I have Spirit, no offense but that sucks....is TEW better?

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Flasch, i love your passion, just not your ideas, but it's cool.

hey thats basic writing.....if you take a moderate face and make him a heel dont be surprised when the reaction has him be a moderate heel and not get over. It has to be UNDERTAKER like character swings to grab the audience.

[jbmagic]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

is this that new game...if so i bought it, and never could get it to work.
PLUS I couldnt get the real stuff in the game and playing with fake names killed me.

no I have Spirit, no offense but that sucks....is TEW better?

its brand new coming out this summer 2005

[Suicane75]

Flasch, heres the problem, nobody knows Meanie, if they saw Meanie attack Bradshaw they would say "what the fuck is retarded shit?". They need to not only cater to ECW fans but to their own audience who doesnt know him from a hole in the ground.

You sound like you very badly wanna see an ECW version of the NWO which i really doubt would work.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Flasch, heres the problem, nobody knows Meanie, if they saw Meanie attack Bradshaw they would say "what the fuck is retarded shit?". They need to not only cater to ECW fans but to their own audience who doesnt know him from a hole in the ground.

You sound like you very badly wanna see an ECW version of the NWO which i really doubt would work.

AHHHHHHH, what a great opportunity via promos, video clips, etc. to teach everyone who he is in exactly the light they want to. They can take advantage of this, as opposed to the rehash that happens over and over again.....This is a spectacular opportunity to start out a long wonderful storyline involving many....you need to remember the power of the promo, the Titantron, and theme song.....its what gets the POP...and in turn what grabs the audience.

youre right NWO wasn't huge back in the day......

the beginning and middle of NWO was huge and succesful, the rpoblem is the bosses did not take advantage of that success and innovate and spin off from it, they let the ship run into the ground.

[Suicane75]

Yeah, but by your logic if they could get anyone over that way why in the world use Meanie?

I don't feel that they need to use ECW as a storyline, but rather incorporate it's style into what they do now, ie: give Heyman the damn book.

Gang and group storylines fail to highlite individuals, which is what they really need to do.

I guess my point is that it isn't ideas that are needed, those are out there, it's execution and elevation that everything hinges on.

And I promise you the moment spraypaint was brought into the angle fans would turn off their TV's in droves.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Yeah, but by your logic if they could get anyone over that way why in the world use Meanie?

I don't feel that they need to use ECW as a storyline, but rather incorporate it's style into what they do now, ie: give Heyman the damn book.

Gang and group storylines fail to highlite individuals, which is what they really need to do.

I guess my point is that it isn't ideas that are needed, those are out there, it's execution and elevation that everything hinges on.

And I promise you the moment spraypaint was brought into the angle fans would turn off their TV's in droves.

the individuals on their own cannot succeed....all "over" singles guys start from groups BUT right now there is no group for a single to come out of, its rare when they dont. The rock from the Black gang (forgot their name), Batista from evolution, etc. By allowing the gang warfare angle they will set themselves up with so many singles success stories it could carry them for years. And I promise this .......
ANYONE can get over if the management and media is done right. anyone for a time then it is up to the management to see when is the time to swicth it up....almost anything, including spray paint, will get over if done right.

EDIT: Wasn't there recently a moron who was "over" because it was done right? Eric Bischoff's nephew or something.....did they end that at the right time or let it fizzle out.

[Flasch186]

im watching smackdown now and its almost unbearable.

[Flasch186]

OMG did they listen to me again!!!

[Flasch186]

nah, benoit just took that one guy away...no biggie

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

The rock from the Black gang (forgot their name), Batista from evolution, etc.

They were "The Nation ... of Domination"

And I promise this .......ANYONE can get over if the management and media is done right.

Well, almost anyone. Erik Watts comes to mind as the exception to prove the "anyone" rule

[DeToxRox]

WWE needs the Shockmaster

[TLK]

hxxp://www.liveaudiowrestling.com/wo/news/headlines/default.asp?aID=13630

Check out the Smackdown spoilers....

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by dubb93

... Its all about taste.

Umm....this is as far as I could go in this thread, when people are discussing "Wrasslin'" and make a statement such as this, I just have to draw the line.


*smirx* I mean, holy hell people, what has TASTE ever had to do with any wrestling fan?

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Umm....this is as far as I could go in this thread, when people are discussing "Wrasslin'" and make a statement such as this, I just have to draw the line.


*smirx* I mean, holy hell people, what has TASTE ever had to do with any wrestling fan?

Fuck you.


And onto the Smackdown Spoilers, I'll be watching that for sure.

[jbmagic]

Wow

Shaun Michaels chin music Hulk Hogan and knock him out.

i didnt see that coming.

[duckman]

The word jousting by Jericho and Cena was awesome. Jericho makes an awesome heel and Cena had a "Rock-like" promo. Very good stuff.

The HBK heel turn almost made me ripped my stitches out!

[jbmagic]

Originally Posted by duckman

The HBK heel turn almost made me ripped my stitches out!

that one really shock me what he did to Hogan

the last time i was shock was when Hogan turn heel and joined NWO.

[Ryche]

EDIT: Wasn't there recently a moron who was "over" because it was done right? Eric Bischoff's nephew or something.....did they end that at the right time or let it fizzle out.

I think you're talking about Eugene. They may have been fazing him out at the end of his recent run, but it ended because he suffered a fairly serious injury, I believe a dislocated patella (kneecap). He will be back though, as he has a lot of talent and wrestling ability. Maybe with the layoff they can get a new gimmick for him.

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by Ryche

I think you're talking about Eugene. They may have been fazing him out at the end of his recent run, but it ended because he suffered a fairly serious injury, I believe a dislocated patella (kneecap). He will be back though, as he has a lot of talent and wrestling ability. Maybe with the layoff they can get a new gimmick for him.

Like Chavo Guerrero's awesome new gimmick.... What a crappy gimmick......

[duckman]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

Like Chavo Guerrero's awesome new gimmick.... What a crappy gimmick......

I was thinking the same thing. I wonder how much money was stuffed into his pocket by Vinnie Mac to "denounce" his Hispanic heritage?

[Comey]

What I find funny about the SD spoilers is that Flasch wanted the Meanie back...and they got him...and the crowd didn't give a fuck, because they don't know the backstory and the fight.

[jbmagic]

this draft was major. what a big shakeup.

a total of 10 smackdown wrestler went to RAW and 10 raw wrestlers went to smackdown.

they show 5 on each show change on tv.

but there was a major trade that involved another five wrestler on each show changing shows.

[duckman]

Originally Posted by Comey

What I find funny about the SD spoilers is that Flasch wanted the Meanie back...and they got him...and the crowd didn't give a fuck, because they don't know the backstory and the fight.

Flasch thinks that every wrestling fan watches every PPV and reads about wrestling on websites. Most people don't have a clue about wrestlers' real life dramas. They only know the characters on the shows they watch.