"USA" chant racist?

[Caine]

Here's the incident in question:

San Antonio prep hoops fans accused of racism over ‘USA, USA’ chant | Prep Rally - Yahoo! Sports

Question: since when is a USA chant considered "racist" or "disturbing"?

[cartman]

When it is used in an obviously xenophobic way?

[Butter]

I would think intent would be pretty obvious to pick out.

Between this and the "All Time Low" thread because one lottery winner accidentally kept her welfare, seems like the anti-PC crowd is reaching pretty far out to make some points here.

[Ajaxab]

I'm not entirely sure if it's racist.

However, living in San Antonio, I can say that Alamo Heights is a predominantly white school in an affluent part of the city while their opponent, Edison, is 96% Hispanic in a much less affluent part of town. To be chanting USA could be deemed to imply that Hispanics are not Americans and subsequently be interpreted by some as racist and/or disturbing.

Of course, it could also be a small group of stupid high school students who, for whatever reason, thought this was a good idea. It may be typical teenage stupidity as much as anything associated with race.

Whether racist or not, it was a dumb thing to chant in that context.

[Chief Rum]

In and of itself, of course, it is not.

When it is used by one fanbase to deride the opponent in an American HS basketball game because the opponent's team is made up of primarily Hispanic players? Yeah, that's a bit more shady.

[Caine]

Wait ... so when you go to a soccer game in the US, and you see a majority of fans singing the Mexican national song, that's xenophobic?

Or when USA is chanted during a olympic compeitition, that's xenophobic?

There's nothing here to apologize for. If you find offense to a USA chant, perhaps you are in the wrong country.

[sovereignstar v2]

I was more pissed when I saw their mascot.

[EagleFan]

Sounds like both schools' fans were being derogatory. I think it's pretty redneck to use the USA chant as a cover for racist intentions.

[Ben E Lou]

The word "racist" is used incorrectly so often these days (and even on this board,) that I suspect that the vast majority of people don't even know what it means. That said, in this case, it's obvious that the intent was derogatory in nature.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Caine

Wait ... so when you go to a soccer game in the US, and you see a majority of fans singing the Mexican national song, that's zenophobic?

Or when USA is chanted during a olympic compeitition, that's zenophobic?

There's nothing here to apologize for. If you find offense to a USA chant, perhaps you are in the wrong country.

First off, it's 'xenophobic'.

And two, the events you tried to compare this with were international competitions, where of course fans will cheer for their country.

The basketball game was between two American high schools. If it were both fan bases doing the chant, it would be a non-issue. But when the intent is to make one side seem less American, that is where the issue arises.

[miked]

Originally Posted by Caine

Wait ... so when you go to a soccer game in the US, and you see a majority of fans singing the Mexican national song, that's zenophobic?

Or when USA is chanted during a olympic compeitition, that's zenophobic?

There's nothing here to apologize for. If you find offense to a USA chant, perhaps you are in the wrong country.

First off, you can at least try to spell xenophobic correctly, especially since it was 3 posts up from this. Chanting USA during the Olympics is a source of nationalist pride, especially since you are facing different countries. If you are playing HS basketball against a local/regional rival, the intent is obviously not nationalist pride, but rather to suggest the other team is not American. It's not USA HS kids vs. a team in Mexico. And your first point is to silly to even respond to.

[Ajaxab]

Originally Posted by Caine

There's nothing here to apologize for. If you find offense to a USA chant, perhaps you are in the wrong country.

I guess it would be like if you were with a small group of people with your ethnic background, call them the Cainites, and another group was chanting "USA" at you to imply that Cainites are not Americans. You might be disturbed by the implication that the chant is being used against you to label you as an outsider when you are just as American as they are.

I can't get into people's heads and say whether this is racist (again, maybe they're just dumb kids), but I certainly understand how it could be interpreted that way.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Ajaxab

...it was a dumb thing to chant in that context.

+1 for this and what Cartman said. Clearly used in an inappropriate context

[Ajaxab]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar v2

I was more pissed when I saw their mascot.

Hacksaw Jim was indeed a Mule!

[Caine]

Wow. Xenophobic. Apologies for the typo, spelling police.

I think it's none of the sort. If you are insulted by a US chant in the US, and are a US citizen, there's something wrong with you. There's US chants that break out all the time in all sorts of competitions, and nothing is said.

If you're insulted and you are NOT a US citizen, well, tough.

[Caine]

Originally Posted by Ajaxab

I guess it would be like if you were with a small group of people with your ethnic background, call them the Cainites, and another group was chanting "USA" at you to imply that Cainites are not Americans. You might be disturbed by the implication that the chant is being used against you to label you as an outsider when you are just as American as they are.

I can't get into people's heads and say whether this is racist (again, maybe they're just dumb kids), but I certainly understand how it could be interpreted that way.

No, I wouldn't. If I'm an American, regardless of my ethnic background, I wouldn't be insulted by a US chant in any context. Then again, certain minorities seem to WANT to be insulted so they can start a fuss no matter what the circumstance.

[Ajaxab]

Originally Posted by Caine

I think it's none of the sort. If you are insulted by a US chant in the US, and are a US citizen, there's something wrong with you. There's US chants that break out all the time in all sorts of competitions, and nothing is said.

If you're insulted and you are NOT a US citizen, well, tough.

It's all about context...

[Scoobz0202]

Purely anecdotal. I remember my time in high school and 90% of our chants were trying to be "edgy." Regarding the context of this one, I highly doubt these high school students were just suddenly overcome with a sense of pride for the USA and decided to chant about it.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Caine

Wow. Xenophobic. Apologies for the typo, spelling police.

I think it's none of the sort. If you are insulted by a US chant in the US, and are a US citizen, there's something wrong with you. There's US chants that break out all the time in all sorts of competitions, and nothing is said.

If you're insulted and you are NOT a US citizen, well, tough.

As a citizen I'd more pissed that they chose to degrade my country, the people in it, and what it stands for by the manner in which they used this patriotic chant. The USA stands for bigger things doesn't it?

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Caine

Here's the incident in question:

San Antonio prep hoops fans accused of racism over ‘USA, USA’ chant | Prep Rally - Yahoo! Sports

Question: since when is a USA chant considered "racist" or "disturbing"?

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by cartman

First off, it's 'xenophobic'.

And two, the events you tried to compare this with were international competitions, where of course fans will cheer for their country.

The basketball game was between two American high schools. If it were both fan bases doing the chant, it would be a non-issue. But when the intent is to make one side seem less American, that is where the issue arises.

""". Its very cute, but the implication is that the brown = less American in some way. and Caine's defense of it is interesting.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by Caine

No, I wouldn't. If I'm an American, regardless of my ethnic background, I wouldn't be insulted by a US chant in any context.

You are being obtuse for the sake of arguing.

Maybe try trolling the Fox News boards or something? I bet they'd agree with you.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Caine

No, I wouldn't. If I'm an American, regardless of my ethnic background, I wouldn't be insulted by a US chant in any context. Then again, certain minorities seem to WANT to be insulted so they can start a fuss no matter what the circumstance.

Jesus Christ dude, why don't you go hang out at Free Republic with this shit?

[Ajaxab]

Originally Posted by Caine

No, I wouldn't. If I'm an American, regardless of my ethnic background, I wouldn't be insulted by a US chant in any context. Then again, certain minorities seem to WANT to be insulted so they can start a fuss no matter what the circumstance.

Of course, it's easy not to ever feel insulted if your family has been established in this country for while. I don't know you or your situation. However, if you are a more recent arrival (as many of the families whose children attend Edison would be), then you might be disturbed by others insinuating that you are not American, and, more specifically in this case, instead are Mexican.

[MIJB#19]

in before the lock!

[Shepp]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

I would think intent would be pretty obvious to pick out.

Between this and the "All Time Low" thread because one lottery winner accidentally kept her welfare, seems like the anti-PC crowd is reaching pretty far out to make some points here.

Lady wins the lottery in September and she has been collecting welfare for the five months since and you buy "It was an accident" excuse?

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Ajaxab

It's all about context...

I would shift this to say that it is all about intent. Words are not things, they are constructs used to approximate and express ideas. It is the thoughts, ideas and hate that are racist. This is why some people get offended and some don't. If you infer the intention of hate being sent your way, you will get offended. If you don't infer that intention, you won't be offended.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Caine

Then again, certain minorities seem to WANT to be insulted so they can start a fuss no matter what the circumstance.

Yeah, I hate it when people raise a fuss over trivial issues just so they can feel superior.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Caine

No, I wouldn't. If I'm an American, regardless of my ethnic background, I wouldn't be insulted by a US chant in any context.

In any context? You sure about that? I can come up with some crazy examples that might make you rethink that statement.

Here's one that's not so crazy: What if the students doing the chant admitted they were doing it for racist/xenophobic reasons? Would it not offend you in that context?

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Scoobz0202

Purely anecdotal. I remember my time in high school and 90% of our chants were trying to be "edgy." Regarding the context of this one, I highly doubt these high school students were just suddenly overcome with a sense of pride for the USA and decided to chant about it.

Even high school kids can have *some* sense of propriety. I attended a private school in high school, one of a small handful of scholarship students. The rest of my classmates were pretty much all old-money rich. There was one other private school in my home town that wasn't as expensive, but still a fairly typical private school upper-middle-class-and-above demographic. Both private schools played sports in a public school league, but we were both much smaller than the public schools in town, so we weren't in the same classification as them. Instead, our Region consisted of the two private schools, then (at various times) six to eight rural, poor, predominately black schools. (People not from the South often don't realize that this demographic is so prevalent in central and south Georgia, but trust me, it is. Here is a specific example. The one high school in the town linked there is still in my school's region. "The racial makeup of the city was 19.63% White, 77.82% African American, 0.79% Native American, 1.37% Asian, 0.10% from other races, and 0.29% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 1.67% of the population." And.... "The median income for a household in the city was $19,940, and the median income for a family was $24,792. Males had a median income of $27,250 versus $17,778 for females. The per capita income for the city was $10,662. About 30.5% of families and 32.5% of the population were below the poverty line, including 44.2% of those under age 18 and 27.8% of those age 65 or over.") For the most part, the schools in these places were heavily black, and heavily poor. (There were at least three well off white families in Talbotton when I was in high school. All three of them sent their kids to private schools 45 minutes away in my town.)

Anyway, that's enough to give you the picture. 12-18 b-ball games per year against poor black kids, 2 games per year against the other private school. Our fans were known throughout the region at the time for being the most "edgy" around. However, there were lines that they didn't cross. They only yelled "a rope, a tree, hang the referee" at white refs. And they only hauled out their "we're rich; you're not" chants ("That's alright, that's ok. You'll all work for us one day!"/"You ain't bad, you ain't cool. You ain't got no Olympic-sized pool!"/etc.) against the other private school. They had enough sense to know doing that stuff against the other schools would have been going too far. So, point being, you most certainly can be edgy yet have some level of common sense/restraint...even in a high school group mentality mode.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Even high school kids can have *some* sense of propriety. I attended a private school in high school, one of a small handful of scholarship students. The rest of my classmates were pretty much all old-money rich. There was one other private school in my home town that wasn't as expensive, but still a fairly typical private school upper-middle-class-and-above demographic. Both private schools played sports in a public school league, but we were both much smaller than the public schools in town, so we weren't in the same classification as them. Instead, our Region consisted of the two private schools, then (at various times) six to eight rural, poor, predominately black schools. (People not from the South often don't realize that this demographic is so prevalent in central and south Georgia, but trust me, it is. Here is a specific example. The one high school in the town linked there is still in my school's region. "The racial makeup of the city was 19.63% White, 77.82% African American, 0.79% Native American, 1.37% Asian, 0.10% from other races, and 0.29% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 1.67% of the population." And.... "The median income for a household in the city was $19,940, and the median income for a family was $24,792. Males had a median income of $27,250 versus $17,778 for females. The per capita income for the city was $10,662. About 30.5% of families and 32.5% of the population were below the poverty line, including 44.2% of those under age 18 and 27.8% of those age 65 or over.") For the most part, the schools in these places were heavily black, and heavily poor. (There were at least three well off white families in Talbotton when I was in high school. All three of them sent their kids to private schools 45 minutes away in my town.)

Anyway, that's enough to give you the picture. 12-18 b-ball games per year against poor black kids, 2 games per year against the other private school. Our fans were known throughout the region at the time for being the most "edgy" around. However, there were lines that they didn't cross. They only yelled "a rope, a tree, hang the referee" at white refs. And they only hauled out their "we're rich; you're not" chants ("That's alright, that's ok. You'll all work for us one day!"/"You ain't bad, you ain't cool. You ain't got no Olympic-sized pool!"/etc.) against the other private school. They had enough sense to know doing that stuff against the other schools would have been going too far. So, point being, you most certainly can be edgy yet have some level of common sense/restraint...even in a high school group mentality mode.

I like that second one -the one about the pool. That's sweet...never heard that before (although I've for sure heard the first one).

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

I like that second one -the one about the pool. That's sweet...never heard that before (although I've for sure heard the first one).

The funny thing is that it was originally just "you ain't go no swimming pool." (I have no idea if someone made it up, or heard it somewhere, but I know it was initially floated around the school in that format.) The "problem" was that many of the kids at Pacelli (the other private school) DID have swimming pools. However, one clever kid from my school noted that the only known *Olympic*-sized pools at homes in Columbus at the time were owned by Brookstone families--and thus that particular obnoxiousness was born.

[cartman]

Based on the Alamo Heights coach's rapid reaction to stop the chanting, that makes me think there must have been other stuff going on during the game.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by cartman

Based on the Alamo Heights coach's rapid reaction to stop the chanting, that makes me think there must have been other stuff going on during the game.

Maybe, maybe not. What's fairly obvious from reading the story, and verified by the coach's immediate reaction and the disciplinary actions taken--is that the intent was pretty much all malicious. It's one of those lines that's difficult to put in an exact location, but they were pretty clearly wayyyy over it. Reasonable people of different points of view on this sort of thing might quibble over whether the line is at 5% malicious, 25% malicious, or maybe even 50-60% malicious before it's "over the line" at a high school sporting event, but these kids were at about 95%-100% malicious.

[cartman]

We haven't had a thread like this since Bubba Wheels was around.

[molson]

I wish the word "racist" wasn't used as a catch-all term for stuff like this but I can see why people were turned off. Idiot high school kids can be idiots. They should be called out on it, but we do have to remember at some level that they're just dumb. At least the school officials didn't hand out little American flags and encourage it. There's only so much you can do about dumb kids. Next time they'll keep their offensive thoughts and chants to themselves, but I don't think it's going to be a "learning experience".

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Shepp

Lady wins the lottery in September and she has been collecting welfare for the five months since and you buy "It was an accident" excuse?

It wasn't. She admitted as much. She said she "needs it," that she's struggling, etc.

What cracked me up was that she bought a house and a car with the winnings, and then when defending the continued use of the food subsidies, defended it with "well, I have two houses." The implication being that those mortgage payments are a bitch. Honey, I don't think you get to use the toys you bought yourself with your lottery winnings for why the public should continue to help pay for your sustenance. I'm just sayin'.

You may now return to your regularly-scheduled WTFery over Caine.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Maybe, maybe not. What's fairly obvious from reading the story, and verified by the coach's immediate reaction and the disciplinary actions taken--is that the intent was pretty much all malicious. It's one of those lines that's difficult to put in an exact location, but they were pretty clearly wayyyy over it. Reasonable people of different points of view on this sort of thing might quibble over whether the line is at 5% malicious, 25% malicious, or maybe even 50-60% malicious before it's "over the line" at a high school sporting event, but these kids were at about 95%-100% malicious.

...{THREADJACK SIDENOTE ALERT}*

Speaking of "over the line," I think the biggest "over the line" crowd stuff I ever witnessed at my high school or any high school (though at the time I thought it was teh awesome) had to do with Prop 48. When I was in high school, Pacelli was rumored to be doing some shady stuff in terms of lowering entrance requirements for a few choice athletes, and even some grade-fixing to keep them eligible (and by the way, they did get nailed for a bunch of stuff years later). Anyway, Prop 48 was enacted when I was in high school, and a year or two later, the first significant casualty of it in my home town was a football player from Pacelli who committed to 'Bama but couldn't make a 700 on the SAT. He was also their best basketball player, and the news that he had failed to qualify so far hit the local papers during basketball season a short time before we were to play them in basketball (like maybe only a week before the game). Our student section just crucified him that day. Signs everywhere said "2+2=???" "SAT", "My dog could make a 700" were all over the place whenever he had the ball, went to the free throw line, or was walking off the court near our student section. It was also right around signing day, and Mack Strong was signing with UGA in a few days, was on the court in Brookstone blue, and was a slam-dunk qualifier. There's a UGA chant of "what do the Dawgs say?? WOO....WOO....WOO....WOO-WOO!!!" { the "WOO" is kind of a barking sound, similar to "who let the dogs out, i guess} The kids were yelling "What does Mack Strong say? WOO....WOO....WOO....WOO-WOO!!! What does {other kid's name} say??? "WHAT.....IS...TWO-PLUS-TWO??? What does Mack Strong say? WOO....WOO....WOO....WOO-WOO!!! What does {other kid's name} say??? "WHAT.....IS...TWO-PLUS-TWO???" I mean....just brutal.

And I think I mentioned this a long time ago, but it bears re-telling. My favorite high school basketball crowd moments ever came in one of those poor rural towns. This group of old dudes in the stands were on one particular ref HARD that night. Picture the dudes from the barber shop in "Coming to America." They were probably at virtually every home game this team played (certainly at every one when we played there). Anyway, that same ref called a tech against *us* at one point in the game, so the crowd got pretty quiet while their kid shot his free throws. During that moment of quiet, one of those old dudes yelled out: "REF, IF THAT KID CALLED YOU WHAT YOU IS, YOU WAS *RIGHT* TO GIVE HIM A TECHNICAL!!!"

Even the refs were laughing. Certainly every kid on both teams was cracking up.




*--but since this is such a dumb thread anyway, I don't really care about threadjacking it.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by Shepp

Lady wins the lottery in September and she has been collecting welfare for the five months since and you buy "It was an accident" excuse?

No, but I don't buy it as a case study for why the system is broken.

[stevew]

I always thought it was funny when our fans would chant "GJR, go steal a car" at the local prison school team.

[cartman]

About the worst we did in high school was chant "Wuck Faco" when we played Waco Reicher. That was enough to get us in trouble with the priests.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

It wasn't. She admitted as much. She said she "needs it," that she's struggling, etc.

What cracked me up was that she bought a house and a car with the winnings, and then when defending the continued use of the food subsidies, defended it with "well, I have two houses." The implication being that those mortgage payments are a bitch. Honey, I don't think you get to use the toys you bought yourself with your lottery winnings for why the public should continue to help pay for your sustenance. I'm just sayin'.

You may now return to your regularly-scheduled WTFery over Caine.

Well, granted you hear the same thing from the rich when they get their bonus taken away and say they won't be able to afford their second house, or their kids' private school. This lady's learning from the big guys! Isn't that what America's all about? They should put her on a poster.

[RainMaker]

There was a really rich high school in our conference that used to wave white trash bags at all the teams they played.

[Ben E Lou]

Heh. I said favorite "moments" but forgot to say the other one. The other one was in the same gym. Evidently virtually no black person from Talbotton--or at least no one who was in the gym this particular night--had ever seen a white kid dunk in person, in a game, in their gym, or something. I say this because that night, in a close game, a white kid playing for us threw one down there. It felt like the effin' ROOF was gonna come off that place. (Well, and as beat-up as the gym was there, it felt like a real possibility *any* time. )

But yeah...they....went..........BANANAS. And for an opposing player. High school kids, parents, old ladies, I mean EVERYONE. It was absolutely electric. I was there the weekend Chipper basically won the MVP award with homer after homer in a big series against the Mets. I've sat on the winning side at state championship football games. I've been in the Georgia Dome for a rare home Falcon playoff win. I've been in Sanford Stadium for some important Dawg wins. But I've never experienced in person a crowd going nutso like that night. I'm guessing if I'd been in the stadium the night Sid Came Home in '92, or when Lindsay Scott ran and ran and ran in '80, maybe those crowds' reactions would have topped it.


But just maybe.

[cartman]

The worst I heard directed towards our school was when we lost a game to Dallas Christian 67-0, with them kicking a 67 yard field goal on the last play of the game. An old man came up to us as we were heading to the buses and told us "I guess we taught you Papists a lesson you won't soon forget!". Mike Myers must have been watching this, because our reaction was much like the one Austin Powers had when he saw Random Task throw a shoe. "Seriously, Papists?"

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Caine

Wait ... so when you go to a soccer game in the US, and you see a majority of fans singing the Mexican national song, that's xenophobic?

Or when USA is chanted during a olympic compeitition, that's xenophobic?

There's nothing here to apologize for. If you find offense to a USA chant, perhaps you are in the wrong country.

You are comparing country competitions to local high school sports. They are not the same.

[Karlifornia]

Nice to see this Caine guy get promptly rebuffed. Good job to all in this thread.

[Rizon]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

[HerRealName]

On one of our off nights during basketball season in High School, a couple of teammates and coaches went to watch a future opponent play Russia High School from Russia, Ohio. It's actually pronounced RU - shee for some strange reason. Anyway, the team from Russia was the visiting team and the opposing crowd did the U-S-A chant at them. We all thought it was clever at the time but I found out later they heard it all the time.

We always had "Old MacDonald" sung at us during warmups when we played a team from the metropolis of Lima, Ohio. I always wondered what it was like for those kids to go out to the outside world and have their self perception ruined when everyone else considered them hicks because they were from Lima.

[Caine]

Not a troll, just a person speaking his mind.

What I find amazing is this instant reaction of the people on this board, which is the complete opposite of the reaction of those who comment at the bottom of the Yahoo article.

I've heard 10 times worse at a college football game or basketball game, and there's not a reaction like this. This is just another instance of people who NEED to be insulted over something.

I never thought I would see a USA chant be vilified by another group of Americans and have people like you justify it.