#CharlestonShooting

[stevew]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

While I don't normally like Mike Florio, I thought this was a well written article...

The failed rebellion against the United States should not be remembered with honor | ProFootballTalk

After the 5th time he said failed rebellion I gave up on reading it.

[Subby]

Just in case folks forget what the civil war and the confederacy was all about:

The Confederate Cause in the Words of Its Leaders - The Atlantic

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Merely "detrimental?????" I'm thinking more like "political-career suicide." My assumption is that most rural legislators will either vote no or have some pressing family matter to attend to when the vote is taken. Failing that, there will be no shortage of "I would have voted to keep the flag" candidates in rural SC's upcoming election cycles.

Maybe the people that are more certain "yes" votes are weighing in early? Otherwise, more surprising numbers. If this holds, I suspect that there will be lots of rookie Republican Representatives and Senators headed to the State soon.

Live: We're asking every member of the SC legislature about the confederate flag - The Post and Courier

Most interesting is that 13 of the 21 Republicans who have given a yes/no response in the House have said "yes."

[lighthousekeeper]

guy 1: racism sucks
guy 2: agreed - a cancer on our society
guy 1: we should do...something
guy 2: we could all try to look inside and change our hearts: try to work on improving our empathy, understanding, and love for one another
guy 1: *stifled laughter*
meh - too hard.
*looks around*
how about we change that flag instead?
guy 2: but by changing our hearts, the flag will lose its negative connotations
guy 1: nah let's just go with the flag thing
guy 2: but if we don't change our hearts, another thing will inevitably replace the flag
guy 1: yeah but flag
guy 2: good point. flag it is

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by lighthousekeeper

guy 1: racism sucks
guy 2: agreed - a cancer on our society
guy 1: we should do...something
guy 2: we could all try to look inside and change our hearts: try to work on improving our empathy, understanding, and love for one another
guy 1: *stifled laughter*
meh - too hard.
*looks around*
how about we change that flag instead?
guy 2: but by changing our hearts, the flag will lose its negative connotations
guy 1: nah let's just go with the flag thing
guy 2: but if we don't change our hearts, another thing will inevitably replace the flag
guy 1: yeah but flag
guy 2: good point. flag it is

Thing is, it has been 150 years since the Civil War ended. What exactly can be done to change the hearts of those who won't let go?

Sometimes, you have to call the bullshit for what it is and move on from it. The Confederate flag has no business being flown on government property. They lost, it's time they got over it.

[Easy Mac]

Obviously these polls are probably self-selected, but the current results of "should the flag be removed" from various TV stations in the state

WHNS (fox greenville)
31% yes
68% NO
2% unsure

WYFF (nbc greenville)
50% YES
50% NO

WSPA (cbs greenville)
30% yes
70% NO

WCSC (cbs charleston)
57% YES
43% no

WIS (nbc columbia)
57% YES
43% no

The State (paper columbia)
17% yes
82% NO
1% other

Post & Courier (paper charleston)
75% YES
21% no
4% no opinion

Greenville News (paper)
33% yes
67% NO

Also, the FOX stations in the state have by far the worse websites of any of the 4 major channels.

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

Thing is, it has been 150 years since the Civil War ended. What exactly can be done to change the hearts of those who won't let go?

Sometimes, you have to call the bullshit for what it is and move on from it. The Confederate flag has no business being flown on government property. They lost, it's time they got over it.

good point. flag it is

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by lighthousekeeper

good point. flag it is

You didn't actually answer the question.

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

What exactly can be done to change the hearts of those who won't let go?

*stifled laughter*
meh - too hard.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by lighthousekeeper

but if we don't change our hearts, another thing will inevitably replace the flag

Then we'll deal with it as it comes. Though no one here has said the Confederate flag should be banned, only that it shouldn't be flown on government property. But that little point keeps getting overlooked.

And you still didn't answer the question...

What exactly can be done to change the hearts of those who won't let go?

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by lighthousekeeper

*stifled laughter*
meh - too hard.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

Sometimes, you have to call the bullshit for what it is and move on from it. The Confederate flag has no business being flown on government property. They lost, it's time they got over it.

I think that is largely what's going on. Up until now I think a lot of folks weren't pro-flag but weren't really invested in it as its proponents were, so they just went along with it. It's like dealing with your racist uncle who you see once a year - you grin and nod through his jokes just to get through them, but don't call him out on it. Maybe this time there is enough support for people - and politicians who may have felt this way but decided to ignore the issue - to say "look, it's time for this nonsense to finally be addressed."

[cuervo72]

Dola - it's not about changing hearts, it's about calling people on their bullshit. (Which yes, some have been doing all along.)

[flounder]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

Thing is, it has been 150 years since the Civil War ended. What exactly can be done to change the hearts of those who won't let go?

The problem is the culture of victimhood that exists in white southerners. It's much easier to blame your crappy life on Yankees than it is to actually do something about it.

[molson]

Have you ever tried to call someone with deep-rooted beliefs and values "on their bullshit"? I think it happens all the time on FOF and elsewhere on the internet. It has never caused anyone to change their views. And that's when dealing with non-violent killers (as far as we know).

[Dutch]

Its like the New Yorker that moves to Tampa. Root for the Rays...you lost your city...embrace this one.

Too hard.

Its a culture, much like any other...with its good and bad aspects. We are all imperfect community based humans.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by molson

Have you ever tried to call someone with deep-rooted beliefs and values "on their bullshit"? I think it happens all the time on FOF and elsewhere on the internet. It has never caused anyone to change their views. And that's when dealing with non-violent killers (as far as we know).

You may not be able to change a bully, but that doesn't mean you don't stand up to him to let him know he's no longer calling the shots.

Also, you might not influence those who ae the most deeply set in their beliefs, but you might sway those who aren't. How are those numbers on same-sex marriage looking?

[Grover]

What does Don Lemon have to do to get fired by CNN?

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

You may not be able to change a bully, but that doesn't mean you don't stand up to him to let him know he's no longer calling the shots.

Also, you might not influence those who ae the most deeply set in their beliefs, but you might sway those who aren't. How are those numbers on same-sex marriage looking?

Bingo. And you change the view of the kids - who see that their parents may be deeply wrong on this issue (once again, the numbers on same-sex marriage based on age group is highly applicable)

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Grover

What does Don Lemon have to do to get fired by CNN?

What'd he do?

[Grover]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

What'd he do?

Has Don Lemon Lost His Goddamn Mind?

[Kodos]

South Carolina Refuses To Remove Confederate Flag From Capitol Trailer - The Onion - America's Finest News Source

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

. Maybe this time there is enough support for people - and politicians who may have felt this way but decided to ignore the issue - to say "look, it's time for this nonsense to finally be addressed."

I think you are giving the local politicians way too much credit. I dont think they had any opinion on the flag. Don't think they ever thought about it. Dont really think they care about it now, other than it is a great opportunity to sway some cross line votes.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by bob

Walmart to stop selling products with the confederate flag

Ebay now as well will add confederate flag items to the not allowed list.

[Ben E Lou]

BREAKING: S.C. House amends resolution that calls them to a special session to include discussion of the Confederate Flag on 103-10 vote. The resolution now goes to the Senate.

[Suicane75]

Hopefully this will keep the damn flag from killing anyone else.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

Also, the FOX stations in the state have by far the worse websites of any of the 4 major channels.

Can usually blame that on the ownership group behind the stations, not their network affiliation.

In the case of SC however ... (if you count Savannah to make five total) there's 2 Sinclair's, 1 that's run but not owned by Sinclair, 1 Meredith and 1 Bahakel which is basically mostly bottom feeding stations run on a shoestring like a mom & pop.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by cartman

Ebay now as well will add confederate flag items to the not allowed list.

Can't you buy actually racist sambo type shit on eBay though?

Yeah, so I just looked and eBay is ztrange

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

I think you are giving the local politicians way too much credit. I dont think they had any opinion on the flag. Don't think they ever thought about it. Dont really think they care about it now, other than it is a great opportunity to sway some cross line votes.

Oh, I'm sure that's absolutely the case for some of them. They sense a change in wind direction and want to get on the prevailing side. But there are probably some who felt this way but didn't wish to head into the wind before (see Bobby Jindal and biology/creationist stuff, or politicians who feign faith.)

[Ben E Lou]

Heh.

NASCAR supports South Carolina stance on Confederate Flag | From The Marbles - Yahoo Sports

[Dutch]

Good for them. Everybody can like cars after all.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Heh.

NASCAR supports South Carolina stance on Confederate Flag | From The Marbles - Yahoo Sports

Not really a big surprise there. They've sold out to special interests on numerous occasions, there's not much respect left for them as it is tbh.

[Kodos]

Bo and Luke are gonna be pissed.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by Kodos

Bo and Luke are gonna be pissed.

They already hide the Confederate flag on the General Lee in the Auto Trader commercials.

AutoTrader Helps The Dukes Find A New Car - YouTube

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Not really a big surprise there. They've sold out to special interests on numerous occasions, there's not much respect left for them as it is tbh.

I actually would like to see black people enjoy racing...and Ice Hockey.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Kodos

Bo and Luke are gonna be pissed.

Hey, they never meant any harm.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Ice Hockey.

TOO COLD!!!

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

TOO COLD!!!

Stop it!

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I actually would like to see black people enjoy racing...and Ice Hockey.

Downhill Skiing, Synchronized Swimming, Water Polo

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Downhill Skiing, Synchronized Swimming, Water Polo

Got me. I'm pretty sure I'd only watch those if the brothers get out there and gave it a go.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I actually would like to see black people enjoy racing...and Ice Hockey.

He doesn't post here anymore dammit!

[stevew]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

They already hide the Confederate flag on the General Lee in the Auto Trader commercials.

AutoTrader Helps The Dukes Find A New Car - YouTube

Yeah. Noticed that.

[Groundhog]

Is there a strong correlation between people who love the confederate flag, and people who think "armed uprising against the US government" is a legitimate reason for the right to bear arms? I'd guess yes?

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Is there a strong correlation between people who love the confederate flag, and people who think "armed uprising against the US government" is a legitimate reason for the right to bear arms? I'd guess yes?

On the internets? Yes. In reality? No.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Dutch

On the internets? Yes. In reality? No.

Honestly, I'd have to say it's higher than your reply seemed to indicate.

How "strong" (the original question) it is could be wide open for debate but I can't say that I've ever known any Southron that was deeply into the heritage that wouldn't have it as a factor.

Hunting would almost certainly top it for #1 but I can't think of a single solitary one for whom the federal government isn't at least somewhere in the mix.

[Dutch]

I was angling more for the fact that there are people all across the country that believe in the right to bear arms for that reason. It's simply not just in southern states or the much smaller scaled confederate flag waving thing.

I can't wait to see what foreign media says next. "So your from the South eh? So exactly how long have you been a racist bastard?"

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Seriously though, the Confederates fly a HUGE flag at the I-4 and I-75 interchange in Tampa....at a "memorial"...so, I expect that to happen as soon as the flag is pulled down...the flag as a historic/cultural flag will be forever gone...and the racist version will be in full display. That's how it works...unfortunately.

http://tbo.com/list/news-opinion-edi...ampaign=buffer

Here is an opinion piece on this flag I referenced earlier.

[BillJasper]

Credit to another board I frequent for originally finding this.

Why do Italian soccer fans and other foreigners fly the Confederate flag? - The Washington Post

Outside the soccer stadium, European extremist political groups have been known to fly the Confederate flag, too. European skinheads and neo-Nazis have sometimes adopted the Confederate flag, especially in Germany, where the swastika and other symbols of Nazi Germany are officially banned by law. Many Europeans see the flag as a de facto sign of far-right political leanings: A Confederate flag that was spotted in a photograph of a French police station last year caused a minor scandal.

Bizarrely, American Civil War reenactions have become popular in Germany, with significant numbers of Germans preferring to fight on the Confederate side. "I think some of the Confederate reenactors in Germany are acting out Nazi fantasies of racial superiority," Wolfgang Hochbruck, a professor of American Studies at the University of Freiburg, once told American journalist Tony Horwitz. "They are obsessed with your war because they cannot celebrate their own vanquished racists."

[Ben E Lou]

White racist comes to town trying to start a race war; Charleston comes together. Some black rabble-rousers (apparently from out of town, possibly from the New Black Panther Party) show up at the church being rude and disrespectful; they get "shouted" down by multiracial crowd of locals singing "We Shall Overcome." You go, Lowcountry!

Protesters attempt to disturb memorial at Mother Emanuel - WCBD-TV: News, Weather, and Sports for Charleston, SC

[Dutch]

Good for them!