FBCB2 discussion: Full version now available

[HeavyReign]

Being in the 2nd tier of conferences requires consistent postseason success to have a prestige in the 80s. If anyone wants to take a look at the prestige levels of teams in the 4 prestige conferences(A10,CUSA,Horizon,MVC,MWC,WAC) and provide feedback I'm open for discussion. In my current testing round I found this Utah State team

  Season Team           W   L  CW  CL  Rank  RPI  PRS Result                          
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    2022 Utah State    25   7  13   3    32   56   80 Loss in FBCA Tourney Round 1    
    2021 Utah State    28   6  12   4    16   35   80 Loss in FBCA Tourney Round 1    
    2020 Utah State    37   3  15   1     8    8   82 Loss in FBCA Championship Game  
    2019 Utah State    19  12   8   8    41   42   78 Loss in FBCA Tourney Round 1    
    2018 Utah State    32   4  15   1    11   14   81 Loss in FBCA Sweet Sixteen      
    2017 Utah State    28   8  12   4    15   14   82 Loss in FBCA Sweet Sixteen      
    2016 Utah State    31   5  12   4     9    9   81 Loss in FBCA Tourney Round 2    
    2015 Utah State    28  11  11   5    46   31   82 Loss in FBCA Championship Game  
    2014 Utah State    29   6  15   1    24   29   79 Loss in FBCA Tourney Round 2    
    2013 Utah State    30   6  15   1    14   18   80 Loss in FBCA Tourney Round 2    
    2012 Utah State    31   7  12   4     8   15   81 Loss in FBCA Final Four         
    2011 Utah State    25  11  12   4    60   49   80 Loss in FBIT Round 3            
    2010 Utah State    28   7  13   3    26   24   81 Loss in FBCA Tourney Round 2    

I think I'd like to see their prestige be a few points higher. Thoughts?

[britrock88]

Up to 85 or 87, maybe. But 80 is a somewhat logical maximum for a team in a conference that's 4/5ths of a 5* conference, roughly speaking.

Of course, getting around these maxima is half the fun of conference movement and conference prestige changes (my favorite)!

[Scoobz0202]

Yea. At first glance having one point less after all that success seems odd but would a prestige 88+ team in a 4* conference create a big imbalance?

[Marmel]

Originally Posted by HeavyReign

Being in the 2nd tier of conferences requires consistent postseason success to have a prestige in the 80s. If anyone wants to take a look at the prestige levels of teams in the 4 prestige conferences(A10,CUSA,Horizon,MVC,MWC,WAC) and provide feedback I'm open for discussion. In my current testing round I found this Utah State team

  Season Team           W   L  CW  CL  Rank  RPI  PRS Result                          
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    2022 Utah State    25   7  13   3    32   56   80 Loss in FBCA Tourney Round 1    
    2021 Utah State    28   6  12   4    16   35   80 Loss in FBCA Tourney Round 1    
    2020 Utah State    37   3  15   1     8    8   82 Loss in FBCA Championship Game  
    2019 Utah State    19  12   8   8    41   42   78 Loss in FBCA Tourney Round 1    
    2018 Utah State    32   4  15   1    11   14   81 Loss in FBCA Sweet Sixteen      
    2017 Utah State    28   8  12   4    15   14   82 Loss in FBCA Sweet Sixteen      
    2016 Utah State    31   5  12   4     9    9   81 Loss in FBCA Tourney Round 2    
    2015 Utah State    28  11  11   5    46   31   82 Loss in FBCA Championship Game  
    2014 Utah State    29   6  15   1    24   29   79 Loss in FBCA Tourney Round 2    
    2013 Utah State    30   6  15   1    14   18   80 Loss in FBCA Tourney Round 2    
    2012 Utah State    31   7  12   4     8   15   81 Loss in FBCA Final Four         
    2011 Utah State    25  11  12   4    60   49   80 Loss in FBIT Round 3            
    2010 Utah State    28   7  13   3    26   24   81 Loss in FBCA Tourney Round 2    

I think I'd like to see their prestige be a few points higher. Thoughts?

This is a very interesting questions, with really only 1 real life comparison that I can think of: UNLV back in the day. Has there been a non-BCS conference team make the final 4 multiple times and win a title?

Obviously there was no BCS back then, but there were still the 'Big 6' conferences, right?

UNLV easily eclipsed the 80 prestige highwater mark for a 4 star conference. They were as prestigious as any team ever was for a 5-7 year period of time.

[Marmel]

dola...

I wonder if these 4 star conference teams can get a special prestige boost if they do something like what UNLV did, but also get a special prestige demotion, so to speak, after their peak...

[Radii]

Where would you rank a Gonzaga right now(or maybe i should say 4-5 years ago huh?), or Memphis before Calipari stuck the Tigers with a cheating scandal? Or Temple during the Cheney years? No titles but I'd think a prestige worthy of the top 3rd of most big 6 conferences consistently. Maybe 85-90 as a reasonable ceiling unless you can pull in some national titles?

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Marmel

I wonder if these 4 star conference teams can get a special prestige boost if they do something like what UNLV did, but also get a special prestige demotion, so to speak, after their peak...

I like this idea a lot if it can be implemented well.

[Marmel]

Originally Posted by Radii

Where would you rank a Gonzaga right now(or maybe i should say 4-5 years ago huh?), or Memphis before Calipari stuck the Tigers with a cheating scandal? Or Temple during the Cheney years? No titles but I'd think a prestige worthy of the top 3rd of most big 6 conferences consistently. Maybe 85-90 as a reasonable ceiling unless you can pull in some national titles?

I wouldn't rank any of those teams much over an 80. Memphis was the only team to make a Final 4, and it was a very short period of time where they were really good. Actually, up until that Final 4 year, I recall many questioning whether they even deserved a 1 seed because of who they played, which implied there were still questions as to how good they could be. Gonzaga had like 2 good years and somehow have developed a nice program out of that, but they would have peaked with an 80 prestige a few years ago at best.

Temple is interesting because of such a long stretch of great team. I totally forgot about them when thinking about my initial post, but never reaching a final four is a big mark against them, IMO.

[muns]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Took me a while, but I've done a pass at modifying the logo pack that Groundhog put together in the attempt to better match the colors that Brian used for teams in the UI, and in a few cases I found newer logos for a few teams.

A couple notes:

1. First off, huge props to Groundhog for doing the heavy lifting of putting together his collection of logos - after doing my pass on these, I realize what a huge undertaking it was;

2. I know that in several cases, the primary color that Brian has used for a team in the game UI isn't really totally accurate, and in those cases the logo color modification I've made may result in the logo being technically wrong; my main intent was just to have the UI and the logos look like they go together, and frankly I'm just not familiar enough with the logos for most of the teams in the smaller conferences to really know the difference

If anyone that uses this pack finds that it includes logos that are out of date, let me know and point me to examples of the current logo(s) and I'll see what I can do to make updated versions.

Dawgfan or Groundhog, could you zip me up another batch. I downloaded the ones here and it says the file is corrupt.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Marmel

Temple is interesting because of such a long stretch of great team. I totally forgot about them when thinking about my initial post, but never reaching a final four is a big mark against them, IMO.

I had to go look up Temple's history, because I remember them being so close so many times, but after looking, they did make 3 elite 8's in a 5 year span from 88-93 and 5 elite 8s in a 15ish year span to close out the 90s. But they were only a top 4 seed 3 times during that stretch. They made tourney runs as a 7 seed, 11 seed, etc, quite a bit. So they're probably the lowest of the ones I was thinking of.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by muns

Dawgfan or Groundhog, could you zip me up another batch. I downloaded the ones here and it says the file is corrupt.

The board keeps running into errors when I try to upload that file. Let me head over to Brian's site and see if I can upload them there...

[rowech]

Originally Posted by Lathum

are you fattening up against low prestige schools for all those 20 win seasons?

I have to play my conference schools so partly. My out of conference schedule is usually me going something like 8-4 with some tough schools. My RPI is usually in the top 30 every year. (except the years I don't make it)

[OldGiants]

Prestige is nebulous, in reality. Look at Butler. Last year made the championship game, this year no bid. Back to obscurity. Some schools like Memphis (State) make a final, then drop back and rise again.

I think the 'let's see you do it again' popular view of small schools is reflected in FBCB2 the way it works today. It is damn hard to improve your reputation and keep it up in the Atlantic10.

Plus there are 'upset special' teams like Princeton and Richmond that get lots of talk becasue of their famous early round upsets over the years. I know kids go to Richmond because of that aspect of the school's history. Adding a bump for knocking off a top (1 or 2) seed and then having it diminish might work. Say a three year bump of +3, +2, +1 back to zero.

Also, schools like Gonzaga will always be regional. That is, Pacific NW fans will always feel Gonzaga is underrated, while here on the East Coast fans think Gonzaga is perennially overrated by the media to appease West Coast fans. You can't really model those two biases, nor would it add to the game.

[jetpunk2000]

Two questions, don't feel like reading through 25 pages. Is there any way to ask the AD for additional resources (I think I remember this being in the original, though I could be thinking of a different game). Also, what is the significance of the colored icons next to each player? Thanks.

[britrock88]

Originally Posted by jetpunk2000

Two questions, don't feel like reading through 25 pages. Is there any way to ask the AD for additional resources (I think I remember this being in the original, though I could be thinking of a different game). Also, what is the significance of the colored icons next to each player? Thanks.

FBCB 2.0 removed the aspect where a coach has to ask; now, the AD will give you the additional resources at the appropriate time.

There is an in-game email explaining the significance of the colors, but I'll paraphrase... each player has two ratings. The left-hand colored rating is the player's current ability, while the right-hand colored rating is that player's potential. The colors themselves are on a 1-5 scale, improving from Red to Orange to Yellow to Green to Blue.

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by OldGiants

Prestige is nebulous, in reality. Look at Butler. Last year made the championship game, this year no bid. Back to obscurity. Some schools like Memphis (State) make a final, then drop back and rise again.

I think the 'let's see you do it again' popular view of small schools is reflected in FBCB2 the way it works today. It is damn hard to improve your reputation and keep it up in the Atlantic10.

Plus there are 'upset special' teams like Princeton and Richmond that get lots of talk becasue of their famous early round upsets over the years. I know kids go to Richmond because of that aspect of the school's history. Adding a bump for knocking off a top (1 or 2) seed and then having it diminish might work. Say a three year bump of +3, +2, +1 back to zero.

Also, schools like Gonzaga will always be regional. That is, Pacific NW fans will always feel Gonzaga is underrated, while here on the East Coast fans think Gonzaga is perennially overrated by the media to appease West Coast fans. You can't really model those two biases, nor would it add to the game.

I'd agree with this premise. Seems like there are really 2 types of prestige - true national power prestige where even if the program has some down years, they are still going to be a school that people talk about and kids want to play for, and current program performance prestige that is far more year to year and based on the results on the floor. I like the idea that a mid major should be able to get it's prestige among the elite but any fall off would be much quicker than a true major conference team, and I'd say on the flipside that a national power should also be able to lose a lot of prestige if they suck for long enough, but a couple of tourney appearances and their prestige should be going through the roof again.

In your specific example, Utah State should almost definitely be higher than an 80, but it should also be much easier for them to "fall off the map" unless they move to a major conference.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by muns

Dawgfan or Groundhog, could you zip me up another batch. I downloaded the ones here and it says the file is corrupt.

Hey muns, still waiting on my confirmation mail to join the FBCB board. If you need the files sooner, shoot me a PM with your e-mail and I'll send them directly...

[HeavyReign]

I just manually activated you Dawgfan.

[HeavyReign]

If anyone would like to try out the option to add/delete conferences in an active league:

http://www.fbbgames.com/FBCB2010v2118.exe

As always when editing the league make a backup copy of your league first in case something goes wrong.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by HeavyReign

I just manually activated you Dawgfan.

Thanks Brian. Does your board software allow you to upload files? If not, I'll connect with muns via PM and just e-mail him the logos...

[muns]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Thanks Brian. Does your board software allow you to upload files? If not, I'll connect with muns via PM and just e-mail him the logos...

I just sent ya a PM bud! Really appreciate the help!

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by HeavyReign

If anyone would like to try out the option to add/delete conferences in an active league:

http://www.fbbgames.com/FBCB2010v2118.exe

As always when editing the league make a backup copy of your league first in case something goes wrong.

I'll try this when I get home tonight. So stoked to see this.

[whomario]

is it just me or are there players too easily declaring for the draft ? I just had another junior declare for the draft and go undrafted ( i believe that´s the 4th player in 5 years that´s happened with juniors and sophomores), i´m at 58 prestige in the WCC right now and the guys in question were all 3 star prospects. The current one is a 6´9 Center that averaged 9/9 on 45% shooting as a junior with no shotblocking or really any defensive abilities.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by whomario

is it just me or are there players too easily declaring for the draft ? I just had another junior declare for the draft and go undrafted ( i believe that´s the 4th player in 5 years that´s happened with juniors and sophomores), i´m at 58 prestige in the WCC right now and the guys in question were all 3 star prospects. The current one is a 6´9 Center that averaged 9/9 on 45% shooting as a junior with no shotblocking or really any defensive abilities.

I've had a few guys leave early that didn't do squat for me on the court, but had high athletic ratings and blue potential. I recall probably one or two that ended up undrafted, though I can certainly recall a few players like that from Washington where that actually happened.

While there are times I feel like there are guys leaving early that shouldn't, I've also had a number of very talented, productive players that never even showed up on the mock draft lists and stayed all four years, so I guess in general I don't feel cheated.

Although, I was pissed last night when I had a freshman lottery prospect with 75 academics get academically suspended in January for the remainder of the season, effectively tanking my team's NCAA hopes and then declaring for the draft - clearly the jerk saw his draft rankings and said "fuck going to class!"

[rowech]

Well....came up short again...really had an unbelievable team my latest season. Just like I thought it would be. Fell short of the final four again though. This time ousted by UNC 110-98. (59-56 at the half!) My team averaged 91 points on the season, giving up 78 a game. Finish 32-6 with a 14-2 conference record, winning the title and the tournament title. Sad to see this squad go. Lose three great seniors and a juco player that leaves as a junior. Going to fall off quite a bit after that group.

Three of them get drafted by the NBA in the 2nd round. Prestige goes from 72 to a 75 so I'm pleased with that upping.

[k0ruptr]

yea that 3 point jump is good, as it should be. The only thing I dont want to see is if you fall back and have a few 22-25 win seasons in a row and it falls back to 72-70. I disagree with that, I think at 75 if you continue at the 22-24 win mark a few years it should stay or go up to 77 or so.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by HeavyReign

If anyone would like to try out the option to add/delete conferences in an active league:

http://www.fbbgames.com/FBCB2010v2118.exe

As always when editing the league make a backup copy of your league first in case something goes wrong.

Awesome, thanks Brian. I'm still a ways off the offseason in my current game, but glad I can create the Great West Conference now.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by k0ruptr

yea that 3 point jump is good, as it should be. The only thing I dont want to see is if you fall back and have a few 22-25 win seasons in a row and it falls back to 72-70. I disagree with that, I think at 75 if you continue at the 22-24 win mark a few years it should stay or go up to 77 or so.

See to me, you can't go by total wins. It's all about postseason success and sustained level of it.

[britrock88]

Here come the historic mods...

Which reminds me... shot clock customization? 35 seconds / 45 seconds / none at all?

also... support for conferences of 5 or 6 teams.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by britrock88

Here come the historic mods...

Which reminds me... shot clock customization? 35 seconds / 45 seconds / none at all?

also... support for conferences of 5 or 6 teams.

There already is 6 team conference support. For example, the Empire Conference in my Zeroed Out dynasty has 6 teams.

[britrock88]

Originally Posted by Izulde

There already is 6 team conference support. For example, the Empire Conference in my Zeroed Out dynasty has 6 teams.

Good to know. I seemed to remember that the game imposed a minimum of 12 conference games and a maximum of a double round-robin. I'd be glad to be wrong on that count.

[Izulde]

Actually I'm just now tinkering around in the Zeroed Out dynasty and it's screaming at me to have my 6 team conferences be 7 members. But I've done it without issue before.

[Izulde]

Oh, one thing I'm curious about, HR. If I delete a conference, does that conference's history and records and all that get lost, too?

[HeavyReign]

Originally Posted by Izulde

Oh, one thing I'm curious about, HR. If I delete a conference, does that conference's history and records and all that get lost, too?

At the moment yes. That is kind of a requirement for the way the game works right now. It would take quite a few more code changes to support leaving them in the game but not having them be active.

[Izulde]

Fair enough. That's what I figured but wanted to check. Thanks.

[HeavyReign]

I can confirm that the game currently isn't supposed to allow 6 team conferences but it was on my list.

[Comey]

Is there the possibility of adding schools along the way? Say if we wanted to do a somewhat accurate representation of college hoops throughout history...are we able to achieve that? Or are we locked into the 340 teams (or whatever the number is)?

Additionally, would there be a possibility to have a NCAA tourney that has only the champions of the league, like the sixties and seventies? It would be interesting to have the NIT be worth something, and mimic old-time basketball. It'd actually go perfectly in line with a dynasty I'm planning...hopefully there's a shot for any of this sometime in the future.

[HeavyReign]

Adding teams to the active league has always been possible with this version.

I'd say that making the tourney code be flexible enough to take essentially any number of teams would be a ways off if it did happen.

[Comey]

Fair enough...I figured it would be. Thank you.

[Yodi]

One bug I've noticed is in the default and current league editor. This only seems to happen when I sort the teams by conference. When editing a team that has a travel partner I hit the "next" button to go to the next team. The team I am currently editing has the same travel partner as the previous team. When I hit "previous" to go back to the original team that now has no travel partner.

For example I am editing Brown. They have Yale listed as their travel partner. I hit next and it takes me to Columbia. Columbia now has Yale listed as their travel partner. When I hit previous to go back to Brown, Brown now has no travel partner. If I would have hit next on Columbia instead of previous, Cornell would have Yale as its travel partner, and Columbia would not have a travel partner.

I am using 2.1.17

[Groundhog]

btw can someone explain travelling partner to me? What does that do?

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

btw can someone explain travelling partner to me? What does that do?

I think it's similar to how the Pac-10 (among others) currently schedules games - the Washington schools will (for example) go on the road one week and play, say, the Oregon schools (UW vs. Oregon, WSU vs. OSU on Thursday, UW vs. OSU, WSU vs. Oregon on Saturday) and then be home the next week to face, say, the northern California schools. It's a natural for the Pac-10 as currently configured with the 5 pairs of natural, in-state rivals, but it could work with any even-numbered conference.

[HeavyReign]

Dawgfan nailed it exactly. For conferences with even numbers of teams, teams usually share the same road trips and home stands except when they play each other. For the conferences that have it set in the default league file, I reviewed their schedules from previous years and determined that they did in fact use this sort of system. In real life its just common sense due to geography and travel costs.

[OldGiants]

Originally Posted by britrock88

Here come the historic mods...

Which reminds me... shot clock customization? 35 seconds / 45 seconds / none at all?

also... support for conferences of 5 or 6 teams.

Oh, yes. Let's simulate Dean Smith's 4-corners stall and have 10-8 conference final scores.

[britrock88]

I'm working up a set of leaguefiles that recreate as accurately as possible the NCAA landscape in 1938 -- the first season for which the NCAA tournament was held to conclude the season. I'll keep you guys posted -- the 6-team conference thing (and 5 if Brian is particularly nice) carries some import in creating this setup.

[Izulde]

britrock, do you want my list of schools when they came in after 1948 as well? I'd be interested in seeing your 1938 list and seeing if there's any schools that came in between 1938 and 48 and if there's any years available.

[HeavyReign]

Originally Posted by britrock88

I'm working up a set of leaguefiles that recreate as accurately as possible the NCAA landscape in 1938 -- the first season for which the NCAA tournament was held to conclude the season. I'll keep you guys posted -- the 6-team conference thing (and 5 if Brian is particularly nice) carries some import in creating this setup.

What are the actual number of games played by conferences with the 5 and 6 team setups?

[britrock88]

I would assume they would play double round robins for 8 and 10 games, respectively, although triple round robins of 12 and 15 games (or quadruples of 16 and 20) would be a cool thing to have.

Am I right in assuming that the game doesn't provide for conference schedules to consist of more than a double round robin at present?

[dawgfan]

Does the game allow you to customize the number of games in your schedule to support simming older seasons? Looking at the College Basketball Sports-Reference site, seems clear that many teams played slightly more abbreviated schedules in the '20's and '30's.

[SlyBelle1]

After playing the demo forever...finally took the official plunge....now I just need time to play it fully Quite strangely, I probably played this demo more than actual full games I have on my computer over the last month. Must mean I will really enjoy the full game.