Whom do you buy a front door Lock for?

[Flasch186]

In a debate here, the question is:

For what do you buy a front door lock for on your home/Apt, to keep out an honest person or a dishonest person? (apparently its a figure of speech)

A. The person outside the home doesnt know if a lock exists, or is engaged or not

B. The person outside the home doesnt know if anyone is home or not or if there are valuables inside

I wont say my opinion until some results are in and Ill describe the other opinion as well.

[Lathum]

My opinion is this....

A dishonest person will enter your home and take stuff, an honest person will walk buy without testing the door to see if it is locked or not.

I think a better argument would be keeping your garage door closed or your car windows open on the street.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Ostensibly the lock is intended to keep out the dishonest, but is much more effective at preventing entry by the honest. Most door locks aren't going to keep out a determined dishonest person for very long.

[Flasch186]

my thoughts exactly were that an honest person would never test the door.

Her argument is that an honest person, that tests the door, might be tempted to do something dishonest if the door is unlocked.

I totally disagree with her statement and stand fast that the honest person wouldve never tried the lock.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I tend to agree with her argument, it's a "lead me not into temptation" sort of thing.

I guess the dividing line there is how you define "honest person" -- is that an absolute thing, or a predominately thing? She's looking at the latter, sounds like you're considering it more of the former.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

I totally disagree with her statement and stand fast that the honest person wouldve never tried the lock.

This.

I consider myself an honest person and it would never even enter into my mind to walk up to some random persons door to test the lock.

The act of testing the lock in itself is a dishonest act.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I tend to agree with her argument, it's a "lead me not into temptation" sort of thing.

.

I think once yo head down the road of testing the lock you are leading yourself into temptation.

Like I said earlier, lets say you leave your car window open parked on the street. I think an honest person would be tempted to reach in and grab your IPod, however, the same person may not pull up the car door handle to see if the car is locked to get at the same IPod.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Lathum

This.

I consider myself an honest person and it would never even enter into my mind to walk up to some random persons door to test the lock.

The act of testing the lock in itself is a dishonest act.

i agree

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I think once yo head down the road of testing the lock you are leading yourself into temptation.

Like I said earlier, lets say you leave your car window open parked on the street. I think an honest person would be tempted to reach in and grab your IPod, however, the same person may not pull up the car door handle to see if the car is locked to get at the same IPod.

But doesn't this pretty much negate the "this is an honest person" argument? I mean, if you are tempted to reach in an open window or open an unlocked door to potentially steal something, doesn't that make you dishonest?

[RomaGoth]

For the record however, I voted the trout option. I NEVER want trout entering my premises without permission.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

But doesn't this pretty much negate the "this is an honest person" argument? I mean, if you are tempted to reach in an open window or open an unlocked door to potentially steal something, doesn't that make you dishonest?

I think the LOCK argument is the discussion here because there is an actual moment of testing were talking about. Im not trying to apply this to other scenarios.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

I think the LOCK argument is the discussion here because there is an actual moment of testing were talking about. Im not trying to apply this to other scenarios.

I understand. What I am saying is, isn't a person dishonest by just trying the lock in the first place? I mean, an honest person wouldn't even stop to see if it was locked in the first place, right?

My argument here is that the temptation is really only there for someone who is already, at least to some extent, a dishonest person.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

My argument here is that the temptation is really only there for someone who is already, at least to some extent, a dishonest person.

I'd counter that the temptation exists for pretty much everyone to some degree. Whether they act upon that temptation rests on their level of honesty or dishonesty.

[Flasch186]

Right, again, the front door lock never gets tested by the honest person.

[Marc Vaughan]

I voted for the dishonest person, anyone who isn't meant to be getting access to a house shouldn't be "testing" a lock imho.

That being said I grew up in a small village in England and generally speaking as a kid you'd knock on someones door - if they didn't answer you'd try and open it, if it was locked they were out, if it wasn't they were about the place somewhere so you'd yell "Anyone home" (quite often people in the back of a house wouldn't hear a knock) ..... if they weren't then you'd either come back later or camp down on the doorstep until they returned.

(so in essence I'd say a lock is either a deterrant to entry or a way of communicating with people about whether you're home at the moment depending on the type of area you live in)

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

Right, again, the front door lock never gets tested by the honest person.

Yeah, I agree with this. My only question, is there a specific reason someone would test the lock in the first place? For example, are they seeing if someone is home to borrow a cup of sugar (a neighbor perhaps), is this a house of someone they know, or is it just some random locked door while this person is out on a walk or something? Do they know someone is not home?

[Radii]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Ostensibly the lock is intended to keep out the dishonest, but is much more effective at preventing entry by the honest. Most door locks aren't going to keep out a determined dishonest person for very long.

Its a barrier slowing down the dishonest. The door lock is the first step of (hopefully) many in making it as difficult as possible for the dishonest to get in. There's only so much one can do to keep out someone truly determined but without the lock as a first step you're just giving your stuff away.


Also, there are two poll options left out IMO:

-- lock is for peace of mind
-- lock is to keep everyone out

that second one is my real vote!

[lungs]

I've never locked any door in my house for the 3+ years that I've lived here. Hell, I don't even know where the keys are.

[CU Tiger]

I use the figure of speech often in one of our product lines (home security), I can keep EVERYONE from getting in your home undetected and it will cost you ~5k....I can keep honest people from getting in and it will cost $99...

If they are truly honest they will never test the door, however if they are unsure of their integrity they may check it and walk by if it is locked.

BTW if you really want to keep dishonest people out, a store bought lock not a single one of them) is not enough. Now it is a matter of peace of mind, where (price and elaborate wise) can you sleep at night.

[Greyroofoo]

I don't lock my door to keep people out.

I lock my doors to keep people in.

[Chief Rum]

I picked dishonest, but really, it's to keep every damn person out. I hate all you fuckers!!

[MrDNA]

Originally Posted by lungs

I've never locked any door in my house for the 3+ years that I've lived here. Hell, I don't even know where the keys are.

The dishonest portion of this poll would like an address, please.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by Radii

Also, there are two poll options left out IMO:

-- lock is for peace of mind
-- lock is to keep everyone out

that second one is my real vote!

Precisely. The lock is primarily for yourself to feel better.

But this argument is pointless because the argument the friend is supporting defies logic. Why would an honest person try to get into someone's house?

The logic of a thief is that you're going to go for an easy target. An honest person will never try to open the door in the first place whereas a thief will always try the lock first. If it's locked, the thief might try another method or they might go to the next house.

If the argument is that an honest person might steal give need, opportunity and an ability to rationalize the theft, that is true. But an honest person won't try to open a locked door to steal. This is a bad junior-college ethics class argument.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Honesty or dishonesty is not necessarily a factor in whether someone will try and enter your home uninvited. A complete piece of shit could be completely honest about his intent to enter the premises and take your stuff. He is only dishonest if he misstates his intentions.

For example: A lady could be invited into your home, but you would not know she is dishonest about her taking birth control. A lock on the door will not help you there. And they have yet to invent a male birth control pill.

We need a male pill to overcome dishonesty.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by M GO BLUE!!!

Honesty or dishonesty is not necessarily a factor in whether someone will try and enter your home uninvited. A complete piece of shit could be completely honest about his intent to enter the premises and take your stuff. He is only dishonest if he misstates his intentions.

For example: A lady could be invited into your home, but you would not know she is dishonest about her taking birth control. A lock on the door will not help you there. And they have yet to invent a male birth control pill.

We need a male pill to overcome dishonesty.

Heh...playing word games.

Obviously, honest/dishonest terminology is intended to refer to thieves with intent to steal from the person/home behind the porposed locked door (and those who are not thieves).

[M GO BLUE!!!]

If you search for tenderness
it isn't hard to find.
You can have the love you need to live.
But if you look for truthfulness
You might just as well be blind.
It always seems to be so hard to give.

Honesty is such a lonely word.
Everyone is so untrue.
Honesty is hardly ever heard.
And mostly what I need from you.

I can always find someone
to say they sympathize.
If I wear my heart out on my sleeve.
But I don't want some pretty face
to tell me pretty lies.
All I want is someone to believe.

Honesty is such a lonely word.
Everyone is so untrue.
Honesty is hardly ever heard.
And mostly what I need from you.

I can find a lover.
I can find a friend.
I can have security until the bitter end.
Anyone can comfort me
with promises again.
I know, I know.

When I'm deep inside of me
don't be too concerned.
I won't as for nothin' while I'm gone.
But when I want sincerity
tell me where else can I turn.
Because you're the one I depend upon.

Honesty is such a lonely word.
Everyone is so untrue.
Honesty is hardly ever heard.
And mostly what I need from you.

[NewIdentity]

I buy my locks for the honest people; my neighbors. My house doesn't have to have the best security system in the world, it just needs to have a better system than my neighbors.


You know the old saying: You do not have to be faster than the bear, you just need to be faster than your friends. This statement pretty much holds true for the lock you have at your front door.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

my thoughts exactly were that an honest person would never test the door.

Her argument is that an honest person, that tests the door, might be tempted to do something dishonest if the door is unlocked.

I totally disagree with her statement and stand fast that the honest person wouldve never tried the lock.

Let me try this again (stupid computer crapped out)...

While I agree a truly honest person would not want to open your door for any ill-intended reasons...I think I agree with your friend that the "honest thief" is the one you are discouraging here. This is based on my own interpretation of the definition of the "honest thief" term that I have heard since I was a kid.

The honest thief is not somebody well-off and in their 30's or 40's (or older) typically...the honest thief is the teenager or early 20's person who would really, really like some things but cannot afford them. They don't NEED such things, they would just really like having them and figure that somebody who does, likely could afford to get another one more than they could. So, if the right opportunity presents itself, and they firmly believed nobody would know any better, they might be inclined to help themself to some of your more interesting belongings. They wouldn't clear you out by any means (remember, they are the honest thief)...just grab your brand new CD you left on your (unlocked) car seat...or help themself to that DVD they could see through your living room window. This is not the same person that would make any more effort than convenience allows for.

The reason this person likely does not check your (figuratively) front door
is because we have mostly become accustomed to the concept of front door locks. We all know that people lock their doors when they are not home...the odds are heavily against the contrary. So, for the honest thief, it would be extremely risky to be seen attempting to open random doors...because the odds are that any door that IS open, also has somebody behind it. And the honest thief does not want to risk being accused of being a thief, much less getting into a confrontation with somebody behind the door.

So...while I think you are right (by my definition of "honest" thief) that an honest person would not try to open your door any more...the reason you are right is because of the decades of deterrence that has been established because of the door lock. So...really, if you stop locking your door, you're really doing the next generation a dramatic disservice.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

So then is a dishonest thief one who would go around to the back where she wouldn't be seen, break a window, open it, crawl in & take what she wants, because she knows the likelihood is your door is locked?

If so, how does locking the door have any effect on the dishonest thief?

[NewIdentity]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

We all know that people lock their doors when they are not home...the odds are heavily against the contrary.

I disagree with this 100%

The only time I am 100% sure my doors are locked is when I am at home sleeping. Every once in a while you may find my front or back door unlocked when I am at work, but before I go to bed I go around and check every door in my house to guarantee that it is locked. Actually, when I am away from my home I am more scared of a fire than a thief.

I am more afraid of someone breaking into my house when I am sleeping than when I am at work. Insurance will pay for everything when I am at work, but nothing is going to be able to pay for the damage that can happen when a break in occurs when you are at home.

No, the only time I am sure I have locked every door and window is when I am sleeping in my bed.

[SteveMax58]

I would say you are in the minority. Do you live in a very rural area? My thinking is that there is likely to be variability when you compare rural vs. suburban vs. urban. The more tightly packed people get, I'd guess (we have to generalize here) the more likely they are to lock up as it is much easier to have somebody stumble by your apartment than your rural ranch.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by NewIdentity

No, the only time I am sure I have locked every door and window is when I am sleeping in my bed.

I would ask this question then...by locking up who are you preventing from breaking in(given the context of the thread)?

The career criminal who saw you bring in your brand new HDTV last week (or noticed the box in your garbage pile)...or the guy strolling by who saw it on while you forgot to turn it off when you had to run up to the gas station real quick and left it on?

I don't look at it in this context usually...I'm just thinking I'll lock it so "nobody" has an easier chance than necessary. But I can't honestly think it would stop somebody who is really determined to get my stuff...there are just too many other ways to get in.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

I would say you are in the minority. Do you live in a very rural area? My thinking is that there is likely to be variability when you compare rural vs. suburban vs. urban. The more tightly packed people get, I'd guess (we have to generalize here) the more likely they are to lock up as it is much easier to have somebody stumble by your apartment than your rural ranch.

I'm rural and I don't lock my doors even when I leave. If somebody wants to get into my house, they are going to get in. The cellar door doesn't have a lock to it anyway.

That said, there are thieves around and they are attracted to rural locations because of people like me that don't lock their doors. My idea is that if I'm going to get robbed, I'm going to get robbed and a simple lock won't stop anybody. What I am immune from are drunks and tweakers randomly walking neighborhoods and stealing. I could get a tweaker that is calculated in his/her stealing but that's what guns are for.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by M GO BLUE!!!

So then is a dishonest thief one who would go around to the back where she wouldn't be seen, break a window, open it, crawl in & take what she wants, because she knows the likelihood is your door is locked?

If so, how does locking the door have any effect on the dishonest thief?

That's close enough to what I would call the dishonest thief. And I would contend locking your door does little to deter the dishonest thief. If unlocked front doors were commonplace, then the dishonest thief would have an easier go at it...but I'd venture many do not even consider the front door (in a reasonably busy area at least).

[Poli]

Good fences make good neighbors.

[flere-imsaho]

Put me down as a vote for "someone who's testing the lock is not 100% honest" unless she is specifically talking about people who think you are really home and are opening the door to call for you, which seems unlikely.

I consider myself a pretty honest person and the only time I'd "test the lock" and by that I mean try to open a door, is when I knew someone was actually home but figured they weren't answering the door because they couldn't hear it. Even then I feel a bit weird.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by NewIdentity

I buy my locks for the honest people; my neighbors. My house doesn't have to have the best security system in the world, it just needs to have a better system than my neighbors.

You know the old saying: You do not have to be faster than the bear, you just need to be faster than your friends. This statement pretty much holds true for the lock you have at your front door.

That doesn't hold true for locks though as generally a thief these days won't 'jimmy' a lock to get into an unoccupied house they'll go through a window - its much easier.

If you want to dissuade people from breaking into your house have a prominent alarm system displayed and hope that the criminal in question is discerning enough to take notice of it (many aren't unfortunately).

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

That doesn't hold true for locks though as generally a thief these days won't 'jimmy' a lock to get into an unoccupied house they'll go through a window - its much easier.

If you want to dissuade people from breaking into your house have a prominent alarm system displayed and hope that the criminal in question is discerning enough to take notice of it (many aren't unfortunately).

Nationally over 85% of all break ins occur through the front door.
Windows account for around 11%

A decent windoww is probably 10x harder to jimmy than your average door, deadbolts being an obvious exception.

[Autumn]

Another chiming in for "an honest person wouldn't try to go in someone else's house," whether it was locked or not." That seems bizarre to me.

[Sun Tzu]