The Trump Presidency – 2016

[kingfc22]

Well when the President is jealous of a 16-year-old girl and then attacks her on Twitter, I guess you got to do what you got to do...

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by kingfc22

Well when the President is jealous of a 16-year-old girl and then attacks her on Twitter, I guess you got to do what you got to do...

And Trump dangles the keys once again.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

And Trump dangles the keys once again.

Well what else is going to distract from the fact that the sitting President has admitted to defrauding charities and had to pay a $2 million fine?

EDIT:the most amazing part of this whole charity thing is Trump once used his charity to pay Don Jr's $7 boy scout fee.

[sabotai]

I've been mostly staying out of this thread, but JFC, this is fucking insane.

Outgoing Kentucky Governor Matt Bevin Pardons Convicted Killer Whose Family Hosted Fundraiser For Him And Donated To His Campaign

The outgoing governor of Kentucky pardoned a convicted killer whose family hosted a political fundraiser for him and donated to his campaign.

Republican Matt Bevin left office this week and handed over power to his Democratic successor Andy Beshear. But since losing his re-election race to Beshear in November, Bevin issued 428 pardons and commutations, the Louisville Courier Journal reported.

Attorney Jackie Steele, who prosecuted Baker and other defendants in the case, told the Courier Journal that he believes Baker is being pardoned while his co-defendants remain in prison because his family has donated generously to Bevin.

Baker's brother and sister in law, Eric and Kathryn Baker, hosted a fundraiser for Bevin at their home in Corbin, Kentucky, in July last year, the newspaper reported.

https://www.kentucky.com/news/politi...#storylink=cpy

It’s not clear if Betty Carnes was killed by asphyxiation or by the eight blows to her head that Delmar Partin delivered with a metal pipe. The coroner couldn’t tell which killed the mother of three first, but it was very clear that her head was then chopped off and placed on her lap in a 55-gallon barrel that was destined for a toxic waste site.

On Monday, departing Kentucky Gov. Matt Bevin pardoned and commuted the sentence of Partin, who was convicted of killing her at the factory where they both worked in Barbourville in 1994.

In his order, Bevin said he pardoned Partin because potential DNA evidence had not been tested.

“Given the inability or unwillingness of the state to use existing DNA evidence to either affirm or disprove this conviction, I hearby pardon Mr. Partin for this crime and encourage the state to make every effort to bring final justice to the victim and her family,” Bevin wrote.

The prosecutor on the case, Tom Handy, said he hasn’t been this angry in a long time. He called the governor’s pardon “mystifying.”

“I think its arrogance of one who has a God-like image of himself,” Handy said of Bevin. “And a lack of concern for anybody else.”

The pardon was just one of several controversial pardons and commutations Bevin issued in his final days in office. The list includes several in Handy’s old district, including a teacher, Charles Doug Phelps, who pleaded guilty to possession of child pornography and tampering with a witness. In his pardon, Bevin called the conviction “long on duration, long on accusation, long on drama and short on evidence.”

The police found photos of minors performing sexual acts on Phelps’ phone.

[BYU 14]

Bevin is a fucking piece of shit, and if I was one to wish ill will on anybody, he would be a candidate. Fucking loser.

[Flasch186]

If Nadler or Schiff reads the Pence aide letter on the floor we could be witnessing the first returned salvo from congress at the white house wherein the Congress will be truly attacking the fabric of the bulletproof vest they're all trying to stand behind. Everything else has been couched in rules and protocol which means that Trump and his ilk can gaslight their way to protecting their base. Not that there's any way in hell they'll see that he's ever done anything wrong ever...evvveeerrrr.

[JediKooter]

JFC...They aren't even trying to be sneaky about it anymore:

#MOSCOWMITCHMCCONNELL TRENDS AFTER SENATOR VOWS 'TOTAL COORDINATION' WITH WHITE HOUSE ON TRUMP IMPEACHMENT TRIAL

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

Everything else has been couched in rules and protocol which means that Trump and his ilk can gaslight their way to protecting their base. Not that there's any way in hell they'll see that he's ever done anything wrong ever...evvveeerrrr.

The truth is much worse than this. They know he's done a lot of things wrong - this is well-documented going back to the campaign. They know who and what he is, and still think he's far better than the alternative. That's the real problem.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

The truth is much worse than this. They know he's done a lot of things wrong - this is well-documented going back to the campaign. They know who and what he is, and still think he's far better than the alternative. That's the real problem.

So what's wrong with Pence in their eyes? Because right now, he's the alternative.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

So what's wrong with Pence in their eyes? Because right now, he's the alternative.

Trump gives them a much better chance at 4 more years then Pence or anyone else.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

So what's wrong with Pence in their eyes? Because right now, he's the alternative.

Pence has the charisma of a vomiting skunk

[PilotMan]

No mention or discussion today of Fuckabee saying that trump IS eligible to serve a third term, and that he's going to head up the campaign?

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

No mention or discussion today of Fuckabee saying that trump IS eligible to serve a third term, and that he's going to head up the campaign?

Just curious on what he bases this incredibly asinine determination on? But then wouldn't mean Obama could come back for a 3rd too?

[QuikSand]

On immigration:

There’s a tenuous silence on this issue...

Where some voters who can be persuaded to vote right/red can be easily convinced that the brown people are a huge problem (this is the easy part), but

Another big swath of voters who also ate in the mix to vote right/red are aware that they got their last deck built for $5,000 rather than $18,000 largely because of soft/ish immigration laws, and aren’t wild about showing all their cards (this is the hard part).

Immigration is a great wedge issue right up until we actually do something. Turns out, shockingly, lots of people in the USA benefit mightily by having s whole subculture if under the table workers out there, who will work for wages offered rather than whatever the law says. And, truth be told, lots of those workers are gone having payroll taxes deducted as they collect their after
-tax earnings, which far exceed their best option elsewhere.

This is a seemy underbelly of this debate.

[Edward64]

Not sure how I feel about the Phase 1 deal with China just yet. There'll be a rollback of some tariffs while others continue, more buying US agricultural products, and supposedly some sort of IP/technology component. I haven't read any details on the last and hence my hesitancy.

But this is a win for Trump politically. Even if there is no Phase 2, he can at least say he negotiated a Phase 1, reinforce his popularity with the farmers etc.

Economic "war" is happening now. Technology "war" is where its going to be. I've read some articles on US and China decoupling (e.g. competition vs cooperation) and I like the idea because it seems inevitable (unless something major changes) so let's acknowledge it for the reality it is and prepare for it.

I would feel a lot better if I thought Trump & cohorts had a long-term, strategic plan vs just winging it on Trump's whim of the day. Not much about China in the debates yet but (think) have read that Biden, Sanders, Warren are the most aligned to my views. Bloomberg apparently has shown to be a China sympathizer because of his company's interests.

[Deleted Axios link, it did something funny]

... there are already some signs of decoupling, even if a complete severing of economic ties is unlikely.

Technology: China has made eliminating its reliance on U.S. tech a top national priority, the U.S. is attempting to block Huawei's global 5G rollout, and each country is racing to defeat the other in artificial intelligence.

"Human talent": Rudd fears we are "entering a new McCarthyism" in which Chinese students, experts and others are blocked from visiting the U.S. (and vice versa), while even Chinese Americans could face "a veil of suspicion."

Currencies: China is deeply concerned about its dependence on the dollar and "senses a serious opportunity" to reduce it via digital currencies, Rudd writes.

Investment: Chinese investment in the U.S. is declining, and many believe "the investment door to the United States is now closing."

In other areas, like capital markets, decoupling seems a more remote possibility.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Edward64

But this is a win for Trump politically.

Since it seems to work with so many people, you have to take your hat off at the "win at all costs" strategy here. Trump sets the building on fire, throws a bucket of water in the corner, announces we are on our way to putting the fire out, and every person who is at all in play to vote for him rallies in support of his heroism.

It's funny, for years there was always a cynical view that to win over the public, you needed to treat them like 12 year olds. Turns out, we were aiming too high. They're 8 year olds.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Since it seems to work with so many people, you have to take your hat off at the "win at all costs" strategy here. Trump sets the building on fire, throws a bucket of water in the corner, announces we are on our way to putting the fire out, and every person who is at all in play to vote for him rallies in support of his heroism.

I don't think there is much doubt the building was already on fire. Trump jumped up-and-down to do something about it (albeit likely for selfish reasons) and it is arguable whether he fanned the flames even more, status quo, or actually reduced the fire.

It'll take years to understand his legacy on China.

BTW, had no idea Schumer supported Trump's China policy

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/13/chuc...aboolainternal

Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, one of the Democrats most supportive of President Donald Trump’s crackdown on China, contended Friday that the president caved by striking a trade agreement.

“There are huge structural inequities with China’s trade relationships with the U.S. At first, President Trump seemed like the only president who would dare tackle this challenge; but now, he has sold out for a temporary and unreliable promise from China to purchase some soybeans,” Schumer said in a statement.

“We’ve heard this song and dance from China before,” he continued. “Once again, Donald Trump cannot be relied upon to do the right thing for American workers and businesses, even when his statements were pointing in the right direction.”

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I don't think there is much doubt the building was already on fire. Trump jumped up-and-down to do something about it (albeit likely for selfish reasons) and it is arguable whether he fanned the flames even more, status quo, or actually reduced the fire.

I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have had higher than great recession farming bankruptcies and suicides with status quo. That doesn't even get into the money lost by the middle class and poor to the tariffs. But death and ruined lives is all good if it means maybe a slightly better economy a few years from now.

Economy over everything except when it comes to people crossing the southern border.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have had higher than great recession farming bankruptcies and suicides with status quo. That doesn't even get into the money lost by the middle class and poor to the tariffs. But death and ruined lives is all good if it means maybe a slightly better economy a few years from now.

Specific to bankruptcies the below does not show that to be the case. I was unable to find a similar historical trend for suicides.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Economy over everything except when it comes to people crossing the southern border.

A CNN poll from a prior link. Immigration is #4 on both. Trump will definitely escalate that issue to play to his base as needed so I can easily see it increasing in importance next year.

From the same article, link to the CNN poll. Page 4 shows what is most important to Dems vs GOP.

https://assets.documentcloud.org/doc...EL13B-2020.pdf

Dems
Healthcare - 55%
Climate Change - 52%
Gun Policy - 43%
Immigration - 42%
Impeachment - 39%
Economy - 32%
Foreign policy - 32%
Trade with other countries - 24%

GOP
Economy - 50%
Gun policy - 45%
Health care 36%
Immigration - 35%
Trade with other countries - 28%
Foreign policy - 25%
Impeachment -15%
Climate change - 7%

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Not sure how I feel about the Phase 1 deal with China just yet. There'll be a rollback of some tariffs while others continue, more buying US agricultural products, and supposedly some sort of IP/technology component. I haven't read any details on the last and hence my hesitancy.

But this is a win for Trump politically. Even if there is no Phase 2, he can at least say he negotiated a Phase 1, reinforce his popularity with the farmers etc.

Economic "war" is happening now. Technology "war" is where its going to be. I've read some articles on US and China decoupling (e.g. competition vs cooperation) and I like the idea because it seems inevitable (unless something major changes) so let's acknowledge it for the reality it is and prepare for it.

I would feel a lot better if I thought Trump & cohorts had a long-term, strategic plan vs just winging it on Trump's whim of the day. Not much about China in the debates yet but (think) have read that Biden, Sanders, Warren are the most aligned to my views. Bloomberg apparently has shown to be a China sympathizer because of his company's interests.

[Deleted Axios link, it did something funny]

Trump Has Already Lost His Pricey China Trade War, Paul Krugman Warns

[QuikSand]

Just a little fun at the expense of our national dignity, ya know?

https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/16/polit...019/index.html

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Just a little fun at the expense of our national dignity, ya know?

https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/16/polit...019/index.html

Reading that is what I'd expect to read from some A.I. trying to learn how to talk. Or someone that's an idiot.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Galaril

Trump Has Already Lost His Pricey China Trade War, Paul Krugman Warns

Bullshit.

Dear leader knows way more than a noble prize winning economist.

[Thomkal]

Michael Flynn loses his last (?) attempt to stay out of jail as the judge rejects all his arguments for the FBI trapping him into his confession. As his new attorney might face ethics charges for plagarizing her brief from a Supreme Court Ruling. He still may withdraw his guilty plea and face a trial or appeal his conviction, which would be very stupid and mean more prison time, so that's probably what he will do:


https://www.washingtonpost.com/local....co/UV6kV0Faik

[Edward64]

Not sure what is driving this but not good news for Dems. I would have thought support for impeachment would have increased ...

https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/16/polit...cnn/index.html

Support for impeaching Trump and removing him from office stands at 45% in the new poll, down from 50% in a poll conducted in mid-November just after the conclusion of the House Intelligence Committee's public hearings. Opposition to impeachment and removal stands at 47% in the new poll, up from 43% in November. Support for impeachment and removal among Democrats has dipped from 90% in November to 77% now.

That finding comes even as public views on the facts driving the impeachment process have held steady. Americans are about evenly divided over whether there is enough evidence against Trump for the House to vote to impeach him and send the case to the Senate for trial (47% say yes, 48% no, about the same as in November). And a narrow majority (51% now, 53% in November) continue to say Trump used the presidency improperly in his interactions with the President of Ukraine by attempting to gain political advantage against a possible 2020 rival.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Not sure what is driving this but not good news for Dems. I would have thought support for impeachment would have increased ...

https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/16/polit...cnn/index.html

I think all that says is that looking at the straight facts the same number of people believe what he did was wrong and impeachable, but more and more people know it is a fruitless effort because the GOP is going to die on this hill supporting Trump so why bother.

[JPhillips]

Never look at a single poll.

The average says that opinions haven't changed from October, but "don't impeach" is in the minority.

[ISiddiqui]

OTOH, the numbers have been fairly stable since October 1, with a little bit of daylight (6% at most) and then coming back together and then it happening again:

Do Americans Support Impeaching Trump? | FiveThirtyEight

[spleen1015]

Everyone knows the whole thing dies in the Senate.

Can the Dems win enough in 2020 to get enough in the Senate and do this all over again if Donnie wins again?

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

Everyone knows the whole thing dies in the Senate.

Can the Dems win enough in 2020 to get enough in the Senate and do this all over again if Donnie wins again?

It's definitely going to die in Senate, but I also think McConnell and the Trump hardliners are making huge mistake openly admitting they're coordinating with the White House on this and announcing the Senate trial will more or less be a sham.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

Everyone knows the whole thing dies in the Senate.

Everybody's known that for, oh, as long as Trump's been committing impeachable offenses.

For people in certain states, that's a feature, not a bug.

[bronconick]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

Everyone knows the whole thing dies in the Senate.

Can the Dems win enough in 2020 to get enough in the Senate and do this all over again if Donnie wins again?

20 seats? No.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by bronconick

20 seats? No.

If Trump wins another term even with an unconfirmed impeachment and all the other baggage, the Dems will have to accept there just isn't enough support for a confirmed impeachment and should just move on.

Make the best out of it, negotiate the best deals they can for their issues and just move on. Other than for murder (or attempted), I don't see any other situations where Trump and supporters can't rationalize it to Dems being over zealous.

[GrantDawg]

And with each passing day, I am more convinced he will win reelection. I don't think the Dems have any idea how to stop him. They keep trust in the rule of law and reason, and he crews that crap up and spits it out.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

And with each passing day, I am more convinced he will win reelection. I don't think the Dems have any idea how to stop him. They keep trust in the rule of law and reason, and he crews that crap up and spits it out.

I still have hopes that once the Dems pick who they will nominate and the VP is selected, there will be a ground swell of support as people can then see the alternative.

Until then, yeah, the incumbent has the advantage especially with a booming stock market and economy doing well.

[Edward64]

An article on 5G, why its important, the head start China has, and why Huawei. Hopefully Trump and/or Dem nominee will see the significance and help nurture our 5G industry.

[url="https://fortune.com/2019/10/31/china-5g-rollout-spectrum/"]

China's aim is to bring 5G to over 50 cities by the end of the year. Yet even before this, China's 5G commercial launch will immediately put China in contention for the world's largest 5G network.

“This puts China neck and neck with South Korea, as the largest 5G network in the world, based on the number of 5G base stations,” said Stephane Teral, an analyst at IHS Markit. “No-one is close to (China’s 5G footprint).”
:
Beyond promising to provide nearly instantaneous movie downloads to mobile phones, 5G networks are seen as a boon to the Internet of Things; they could lead to the mass adoption of self-driving cars, the mass availability of robotic surgeries, and the growth of smart cities outfitted with high-tech features like A.I.-powered traffic lights.
:
“You need a very good mix of bands, capacity bands, and coverage to fully deliver the promise of 5G,” said Teral. “At the moment, we have a U.S. market asking for one frequency while the rest of the world is asking for a common frequency." That, he said, has isolated the U.S. in this regard.

U.S. telecom carriers' focus on developing higher-frequency spectrums is due, in part, to the fact that lower-end spectrums are owned by the U.S. government and military. In recent months, the U.S. government has pushed to sell off mid-tier 5G spectrums, dubbed the ‘Goldilocks’ spectrum, in bids to spur 5G development on a more mass scale.
:
“Certainly when it comes to base stations, and rolling out some of the equipment right now, the United States is behind right now,” he said. “But when it comes to eventually developing the services and products that are going to come on 5G there’s no reason to think the U.S. won’t be the leader—if not extremely competitive with China.”
:
For the last few years, Huawei has aggressively pursued contracts to build 5G around the world, even as the U.S. has begged other countries to reject the advances and ban the firm from operating within their borders, characterizing it as a security risk. Huawei has repeatedly denied U.S. claims that it provides the Chinese government access to foreign countries’ data.
:
“Ericsson and Nokia remain formidable competitors on the world stage,” Teral said. “They are flexing their muscles and taking opportunities left by Huawei (in countries where Huawei was banned).”

Noticeably absent from the discussion are any U.S. firms that are building 5G networks on the international stage. Segal says this—plus security concerns—may explain the U.S.’s harsh response to Huawei and its increasing global clout.

“A lot of it is also driven by the realization that (the U.S.) doesn’t have a manufacturer in this space, so, let’s try to slow the Chinese down,” Segal said. There's alarm in the U.S. that it's found itself in this position, he said.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

And with each passing day, I am more convinced he will win reelection. I don't think the Dems have any idea how to stop him. They keep trust in the rule of law and reason, and he crews that crap up and spits it out.

Yeah, I'm also coming around to the idea that he gets re-elected, no matter who gets nominated on the Dem side. He might have a narrow floor/ceiling of ~40%, but that floor is both unshakable and active, and I could see a lot of people just sitting out or not voting on the Presidential ticket.

[Brian Swartz]

I'll still be very surprised if that happens. All of the best evidence, without exception, points in the direction of Trump getting his hat handed to him in '20.

[Flasch186]

The war that is being won is a war on Facts. It's been going on before Trump but in essence, speak your narrative and if need be loudly and do so unwaveringly no matter the contra to it. I honestly don't know how we'll ever get back to seeing the world through a mostly agreed-upon set of facts. That scares me more than Trump or anything. Don't like the fact, find a source that discounts it and then cite it loudly and broadly.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

I'll still be very surprised if that happens. All of the best evidence, without exception, points in the direction of Trump getting his hat handed to him in '20.

He'll lose by a ton of votes but he still has the electoral college on his side.

[JPhillips]

So now we know that a Russian oligarch was paying Lev Parnas...

Who was paying Giuliani...

Who is providing free legal work for Trump.

The only thing we don't know is what Trump was promising for all of this.

[Edward64]

Looks as if Trump has a soul mate in religious discrimination & prejudice. Wouldn't be surprised if he uses it as foil one day.

I've not found a poll on % of Indians that support or not. I suspect a large majority do support it.

From what I've read, the bill will legitimately help a bunch of non-Muslim illegals from 3 bordering Muslim countries gain citizenship so there is that plus. However, it is obviously discriminatory to a religion.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/11/asia/...hnk/index.html

India's parliament has passed a bill that would give Indian citizenship to immigrants from three neighboring countries -- but not if they are Muslim.

The controversial Citizenship Amendment Bill (CAB) will fast-track citizenship for religious minorities, including Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains, Parsis and Christians, from Afghanistan, Bangladesh and Pakistan.

Opposition parties say the bill is unconstitutional as it bases citizenship on a person's religion and would further marginalize India's 200-million strong Muslim community.

The government, ruled by the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), said the bill seeks to protect religious minorities who fled persecution in their home countries.
:
The bill will now be sent to the President to be signed into law.

"I think it is, without exaggeration, probably the most dangerous piece of legislation that we've had because it amounts to truly destroying the very character of the Indian state and the constitution," Harsh Mander, an Indian human rights activist and author, told CNN.

Mander said the very nature of the Indian constitution is that it is based on secular values.

Addressing parliament on Tuesday, Shah said that Muslims "will not benefit from this amendment because they have not been persecuted on the basis of religion."

Speaking to the Rajya Sabha on Wednesday, he added: "Who are you worried about? Should we make the Muslims coming from Pakistan, Bangladesh and Afghanistan citizens of the country? What do you want -- that we give every Muslim coming from any anywhere in the world citizenship? ... The country cannot function this way."

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

I honestly don't know how we'll ever get back to seeing the world through a mostly agreed-upon set of facts. That scares me more than Trump or anything. Don't like the fact, find a source that discounts it and then cite it loudly and broadly.

I think the media is doing a decent job in pointing out incorrect statements, lies, exaggerations etc. I do think this has been happening all along in politics, the difference is Trump himself is saying so much of it when its not even needed.

I like to think the next President will revert back to pre-Trump ... more selective with words, more care on who s/he offends etc. and only lie when its necessary.

[NobodyHere]

So there's social media outrage about Trump not backing the Armenian Genocide bill.

But seriously, what purpose does this bill serve? It looks like a present gift wrapped by democrats to Putin in order to divide the US and Turkey.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

So now we know that a Russian oligarch was paying Lev Parnas...

Who was paying Giuliani...

Who is providing free legal work for Trump.

The only thing we don't know is what Trump was promising for all of this.

I think the only question after today's revelations is when is Rudy going to be indicted? Then we get to see how long it takes Trump to claim he doesn't know him.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I think the media is doing a decent job in pointing out incorrect statements, lies, exaggerations etc. I do think this has been happening all along in politics, the difference is Trump himself is saying so much of it when its not even needed.

I like to think the next President will revert back to pre-Trump ... more selective with words, more care on who s/he offends etc. and only lie when its necessary.

Yes a lot of things blend into politics but there's a LOT of stuff that is harbored outside of Politics that is being batted back and forth so the truth gets blurred. The sources and encyclopedias being attacked is something that, if not reversed, means that future history books will be rewritten regarding what we always just took as fact.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Rainmaker

He'll lose by a ton of votes but he still has the electoral college on his side.

Based on what? I'm not trying to be snarky or dismissive, but I just don't see it. The GOP got their clocks cleaned in the midterms and every special election I've seen in the places he'd need to win. Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin, they all tell the same story. It's not one that's good for his re-election. I'm not writing him off as long as the economy is good, we're a long way from next November, etc., but every single time since he was put in office that the voters he needs to keep him there have gone to the polls, they've said the same thing.

Originally Posted by Flasch196

That scares me more than Trump or anything. Don't like the fact, find a source that discounts it and then cite it loudly and broadly.

Yep, this is a big part of it. I'm with you 100% here - presidents come and go, but this kind of social change tends to be more enduring - and therefore dangerous.

[Ben E Lou]

Am I the only on that thinks Trump and the GOP are simply gonna cheat, and if it comes to light, justify it? Isn't that the pattern we're seeing with quid pro quo, Russia, and everything else?

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Am I the only on that thinks Trump and the GOP are simply gonna cheat, and if it comes to light, justify it? Isn't that the pattern we're seeing with quid pro quo, Russia, and everything else?

]Yes, and I think they did last election as well. Which is why the Dems have a lot to overcome to win.