Game development Efforts

Fido · 04-10-2003, 06:34 AM

OK, so this really isn't a dynasty, but it does represent an ongoing, effort, so its close. The thread will be a place for me and any future team members to post/store ideas and concepts that will be incorporated into a single design document at some point. This thread is not intended as a design document, and will not contain and technical specifications, any discussions oc computational algorithms, no discussion about the code I wrote (hoe boring would that be to read - "Today I discovered that you can write x++ instead of x = x + 1 so I modified all of my code to reflect this new change").

Anyway...If you're interrested in following this effort then read on, if you're not then just hit your browser's the back button now.

Bee · 04-10-2003, 06:48 AM

So did you decide to go with the online college football game?

Fido · 04-10-2003, 07:38 AM

I can not take credit for the idea of the game, but I can and do take full credit for stealing it from WSU Cougar. The game is set in a fantasy world, and you task is the development and managing of a stable of gladiators. The world will be D&D like in that it will contain a large set of humanoid races, each of which has its own strengths and weaknesses (or is pretty much average like Humans - simply because they are what the other races are compared against). The main difference between this world and the D&D world is magic - it simply will not exist in this game world, meaning combat will be melee/ranged combat only. This greatly simplifies the development process, and eliminates the need to create/code/balance/play test a large number of spells.

The game will be designed as a multi-player game playable through e-mail. The method of multiplayer gaming is unfortunate, but necessary due to the reality of me not having the resources to commit to a dedicated server with a dedicated Internet connection. Single player games will also be available, where the player will compete against one or more Computer controlled players. The game will be turn based, with one turn representing a week of game time. All actions will take place simultaneously, so two players have an equal opportunity to perform a given action, regardless on the order in which they complete their turns.

The purchase of goods will all be through E-Bay style auctions, and items will be sold to the highest builder, which will help to ensure that items are available to all players.

You will be responsible for the upkeep of the Warriors in your stable. These are slaves that you either purchase at auctions or from breeders or, alternatively, that you breed yourself, provided that you have adequate breeding stock. The upkeep items you will be responsible for include housing, food, medical attention and security.

You will also have the ability to hire staff to perform actions that you are either incapable of or that you lack the time to do. Staff positions will include Medics, Trainers, Breeders, Promoters, Buyers, and Security.

The game will also include Heroes – former warriors who have been granted their freedom but who choose to continue fighting. Heroes will generally be much better than normal warriors, but they are mercenary in nature, signing contracts with the highest bidders, and getting paid based on their abilities.

Every character (whether warrior, Hero, or Employee) will have a skill set which governs their ability to perform specific tasks.

This is not a complete design (its not even close). It is intended as an overview of the game that I am attempting to make.

Fido · 04-10-2003, 07:42 AM

ONe of the first things I do after getting some kind of a concept is to make sure that the scenario makes sense. If its unrealistic then you have problems with people buying into it (yourself included). So I threw together a background story (mostly for myself, but I'm posting it just because it is part of the process).

*Disclaimer* I'm a programmer not an author. This story is not meant to be a thrilling read, it simply applies some reasoning as to why these gladiator matches occur, the background behind them, etc. This is meant ot be the basis for the introduction in the game manual, but is subject to change without notice as people with talent sign on to the project. *Disclaimer*

For ages the land of Mithira had been at war. Tribes would battle for hunting grounds, absorbing the people and territories that they had conquered. These tribes soon became nations led by bloodthirsty dictators who sought to expand their power and influence by crushing their neighbors. The nations expanded and clashed, eliminating the weak while the stronger became stronger. Soon the nations had expanded to encompass all members of a given race. The leaders now had control not over a country, but an entire species, yet their thirst for conquest was not quenched. Questions arose over the dominant species on the planet, and soon massive armies were formed as races went to war with each other.

These armies were led not by the rulers themselves, but by elite soldiers, Champions that represented the will of their rulers and inspired fear and respect in their men. On the battlefield, they had no equal, able to cut through hordes of enemy soldiers with little effort. During battles, it was inevitable that the Champions of the two sides would meet in solo combat, and when this did happen, the results were striking. Soldiers from both sides forgot the battles they had been engaged in and encircled the combatants to witness the battle that often lasted for hours on end. As a champion fell, his troops realized the hopelessness of the situation and fled the battlefield in disgrace. The Champions became legends, respected and looked up to by their brethren, feared and hated by their enemies.

The wars lasted for generations, the weakest of the races eventually being completely eliminated form the planet, but the remaining races reaching a stalemate of sorts, but still the wars raged on. Until the Peace Keepers arrived one winter.

These were ordinary men, but they wielded powerful artifacts that granted them control over the elements themselves. They easily dispatched the leaders of the world, and assumed control over the entire planet. Unlike all of their predecessors, these new rulers did not have a thirst for blood. They regretted war and thought it should be avoided at all costs. They divided the planet into nations and gave control back to the citizens, but forbade wars for all time. From time to time, the Nations’ leaders had disputes, and resorted back to the ways of their ancestors to settle them – they mustered armies and sent them to battle. But the battles never occurred – the Peace Keepers, seemingly omnipotent eliminated the armies and their leaders before a battle could even be fought, demonstrating that war was, in fact, a thing of the past.

This was not taken well by the champions – men who had devoted their entire lives to being successful in battle. They had lost their livelihood, but more importantly they longed for the respect generated from vanquishing a foe. They began staging battles against each other and charging admission to witness them. The battled started in back rooms, then progressed into warehouses, and eventually massive stadiums. People still had the bloodlust, and this was a way to experience battles without fear of reprisals from the Peace Keepers.

The Champions began making large amounts of money, and living extravagant lifestyles. This led to a problem – while there had always been a certain level of respect for each other (Champions rarely killed each other after a well fought battle, even in times of war), but adrenaline level did get high and incidents did occur. They valued their lifestyles, but the people demanded extravagant tournaments with dozens of competitors. Champions were faced with the prospect of having to survive through multiple rounds of competition to win the prizes. They began getting together and arranging tournaments that included only two champions – the remainder of the field dilled in with trained slaves. The slaves were decent fighters, and made for entertaining show in the early rounds, but posed no real threat to the Champions who now had only the final battle to be prepared for. These slaves were considered like livestock, and the collections became known as stables.

What they did not count on was the ability of these slaves to learn their skills. They had nothing to do with their time but to train, and wanted nothing more than to be free. As the slaves grew in power, they became dangerous to keep, and were eventually sold by their owners. The improved level of competition only increased the populance’s love of the events.

Enterprising men took this opportunity to enter into the glamorous world of Gladiatorial Combat. They purchased the Slaves and built their own stables around them. They invested huge amounts of money in elaborate training facilities, they purchased the best slaves and equipped them with the best equipment. These businessmen radically changed the competitions, as they were able to field entire stables of warriors who were approaching the Champions themselves in skill. Soon the Champions decided that the fame and fortune was no longer worth the risks, and that they had lost control over the events that had created.

Combat was now a business.

Fido · 04-10-2003, 07:49 AM

Ok, this is going to look pathetic right now, since it will basically be me typing my name over and over again, but I'm throwing it in so that it can be near the top of the thread and can be edited to reflect additions:

Any unfilled positions are available if anyone wants to jump on board. Any positions I left out are unfilled (obviously) and will be added as they are brought to my attention.

Technical Director: Fido
Lead programmer: Fido
Combat Engine Developer:
Auction Engine Developer:
Interface Designer:
Multiplayer Engine Processor:
HTML/JSP/ASP output design: Draft Dodger
Additional Development: Aylmar

Creative Director: WSU Cougar
Race Development:
Weapons Development:
World Development:
Computer Opponent Developer:

Playtesters:
Usability Testers:

Doccumentation (Manual):
Doccumentation (Online Help):

(see? I said it was going to look pathetic)

Fido · 04-10-2003, 08:05 AM

Target Platform Windows Home versions (95, 9x, Me, XP Home). While the game may function on the office versions (NT, 2000, XP Pro) it is being designed to ensure that it works on the home systems.

Development Language C++. Sorry to any of you Java/vb programmers who wanted to be involved, but I think having a single language so that all code can be compiled into executable version on one system is important. Limiting the language to a single language is the easiest way to ensure this.

Source Code this is intende dto be a closed source project. The code will be made freely available to those taking part, and to those who express an interest in looking at it, but not ot the general public.

Cost The game will be released as freeware initially. Pending its success the parties involved will be allowed to decide if/how much to charge for the game. All proceeds will be distributed to the contributors based on their participation in the development process (this is going to be hard to gauge, and will have to be a group decision so as not to offend anyone). The possibility of lawsuits is real here so great though will need to be put into whether to ever charge for this game or not.

Requirements the following technical features are required and must be taken into account in all design decisions:

Scripting - Computer opponents will be specific. The player "Collosal Squid" shoudl play pretty much the same every time you play against him/her (how do you tell the sex of a squid). This will be accomplished through scripting.
Game integrity - the multiplayer version of the game should be developed to be as cheat-free as possible. All simulation will be performed on the host computer. All datafiles sent in to the host need to be verified for any tampering.
Replayability - while computer opponents shoudl play the same, the game itself should not. Random events, random warrior creation, and random starting conditions shoudl aid in this, but care must be taken to ensure that this is not a one shot deal of a game.
Detail is a must - configurable, detailed reports covering anything anyone may want ot know shoudl be available in the game.
Well documented Data Files - any dat afiles the game creates will be well documented and that documentation will be provided to the general publc allowing for easier creation of third party utilities.
Direct Web support - the Game will be capable of generating HTML/JSP/ASP pages based on the results of gameplay.
Configurable micromanagement level - the game should range from complete hands off to a hands in everything levels of micromanagement. Every aspect of the game shoudl be manageable by an employee, but no aspect should require emplyees perform them.

These specifications are subject to change (as is everything else in this thread).

Bee · 04-10-2003, 08:05 AM

There used to be a few games similar in style that were PBM (Play by Mail) back in the early to mid 80's. One was called "Duelmasters", another"Blood Pit", I think there were a few more as well. That might be a good place for WSUCougar to get some research material. I think I still have some output from some of the games that I could send WSUCougar if he'd like to see it (just to get a feel for what has been done before).

I think this is a good choice Fido.

Edit:

Actually, here's a link to a page about Duelmasters looks like they may have an email game now.

linky

Edit #2:
BTW, Not saying you should copy them or even do something "similar" to what they are doing. I just thought it would be a good idea to see what others have done along the same lines.

Fido · 04-10-2003, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Aylmar
If the email attachments are going to binary, then I'm thinking that you're going to have some piece of the codebase that is distributed to player's machines in order to generate the files that are attached to the email? Or am I overcomplicating matters? Perhaps we should transition this portion discussion to the dynasty thread...

I envision there being two executables in the distributions. The game itself and a league administrator app ( a third would be a dedicated server module). There would be significant code sharing going on here (DLLs under Windows, whatever the equivalent is under Linux).

Players would use the Game to make their turns, and, when done, it woudl be sent off to whatever source for processing. However, it woudl also be capable of playing in stand-alone mode, allowing you to make your turns the computer opponents to make theirs, and present the results without need for a server to be running.

The admin would simply import the binary files, process them, generate binary result files and send them off. On top of this it would provide leagur management functionality (adding/editing/deleting participants), "Random" event triggering, HTML generation, etc.

A Stand alone server would simply sit there and receive incoming data files, wait until a predefined time then execute the simulation and queue up the results. Users who connect would receive a series of binary files (one for each turn they missed). It would be configurable so as to allow for autogeneration/uploading of html results, and it would needto have some sort of admin interface.

WSUCougar · 04-10-2003, 10:58 AM

I'm on board. I think this is an exciting project.

A few operational questions:

(1) Should we establish a realistic timetable? Already Fido has moved at a remarkable speed, taking the seed of an idea and exploding it into an initial design concept. While certainly impressed, I cannot match that kind of output (if for no other reason than available time). I realize that this might have just been an initial spasm of creative juices (ewww!), but I wanted to be up front about time/output expectations.

(2) From our team perspective (not the player's, I mean), is this project aimed at "fun project," "marketable product," or a combination? I am content either way, but I'm not clear on your guys' stance.

(3) Do we have or know of anyone artistic? I have some possible contacts, but I haven't heard of anyone at FOFC with those skills.

(4) When it comes to technical programming issues, please talk slow.

As for the game and what Fido has already laid out, I'd like to throw something in for consideration before we plunge too far ahead. Something that I’ve run into as I tinkered with this game concept (for a board game, not a computer game) was that blending a sports-type text sim with gladiatorial combat produces some issues/concerns. One of them is that gladiator combat was often (if not almost always) lethal, and thus simulating it sours the sports gaming concept of team-building, cohesion, etc. With that in mind, I worked a pretty good system that used units of gladiators, rather than individuals. The scope was broadened so that instead of ultra-tactical individual combat, “battles” were waged across a standard battlefield. Ratings, stats, etc., were all targeted toward unit level. Individuals played key roles (leaders, spies, assassins, etc.). Naval units were also included. Instead of death/destruction, capturing and holding portions of the battlefield (primary/secondary/tertiary “goals”) were grounds for victory.

Anyway, I think we might want to discuss this some as a team.

Aylmar · 04-10-2003, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fido
A Stand alone server would simply sit there and receive incoming data files, wait until a predefined time then execute the simulation and queue up the results. Users who connect would receive a series of binary files (one for each turn they missed). It would be configurable so as to allow for autogeneration/uploading of html results, and it would needto have some sort of admin interface.

Okay...so it sounds like you're shifting the design of the multiplayer game to include some actual online elements...and not just PbEM. If you already have a stand-alone server to process binary files and generate results, then you could leverage that in order to allow players to play completely through the browser if they like, no?

Another thing to keep in mind is this...much like other online games, this doesn't have to (nor from what I've read to I believe that you intend it to) stand as a single server with worldwide play. It could be a farm of servers, hosted by anyone who has the bandwidth and desire. In that case, the idea of allowing a player to move his "company" from server universe to server universe would be interesting...but potentially complicated if you want to prevent cheating.

Fido · 04-10-2003, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by WSUCougar
(1) Should we establish a realistic timetable? Already Fido has moved at a remarkable speed, taking the seed of an idea and exploding it into an initial design concept. While certainly impressed, I cannot match that kind of output (if for no other reason than available time). I realize that this might have just been an initial spasm of creative juices (ewww!), but I wanted to be up front about time/output expectations.

Its a direct result of me having left the lights on in my car yesterday, prompting a 3 mile walk home (stayed late, Wife had late meeting and no car). Not a whole hell else to do but mull this over.

Quote:

(2) From our team perspective (not the player's, I mean), is this project aimed at "fun project," "marketable product," or a combination? I am content either way, but I'm not clear on your guys' stance.

My personal goal is to have fun doing it and to produce an enjoyable product at the end. As far as I'm concerned, if you accomplish both of those things, marketability is easy.

Quote:

(3) Do we have or know of anyone artistic? I have some possible contacts, but I haven't heard of anyone at FOFC with those skills.

My wife is quite an artist...though she may not be much help, unless of course you want all cutsey disney looking creatures (puppies and bunnies would be her specialty).

Quote:

As for the game and what Fido has already laid out, I'd like to throw something in for consideration before we plunge too far ahead. Something that I’ve run into as I tinkered with this game concept (for a board game, not a computer game) was that blending a sports-type text sim with gladiatorial combat produces some issues/concerns. One of them is that gladiator combat was often (if not almost always) lethal, and thus simulating it sours the sports gaming concept of team-building, cohesion, etc. With that in mind, I worked a pretty good system that used units of gladiators, rather than individuals. The scope was broadened so that instead of ultra-tactical individual combat, “battles” were waged across a standard battlefield. Ratings, stats, etc., were all targeted toward unit level. Individuals played key roles (leaders, spies, assassins, etc.). Naval units were also included. Instead of death/destruction, capturing and holding portions of the battlefield (primary/secondary/tertiary “goals”) were grounds for victory.

I struggled with this issue the most. I considered the units approach, but you still have problems with members of units getting killed, weakening the unit's effectiveness. Plus I don't think you would have the same attachment to a unit that you woudl have to a single "person". I decided that the game itself can be made to discourage killing through financial penalties and vendettas. It is up to each owner to determine if his stable is encouraged to killopponents or show mercy. Consistency will be awarded (fame/infamy) which will make upir stable a sought after commodity. Consistent killing will make you feared, and people will not want ot compete against you. Also, each warrior will have his/her own morals, so insisting someone who doesnt want to kill to kill will have an effect on their performance, and attitude towards you.

Personally, I'm leaning towards having super healing staff that can work near miracles (if you are willing to pay for their skill) and revive near dead competitors.

Quote:

Naval units were also included. Instead of death/destruction, capturing and holding portions of the battlefield (primary/secondary/tertiary “goals”) were grounds for victory.

Plus naval units would allow for the introcustion of Collosal Squids

Fido · 04-10-2003, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Aylmar
Okay...so it sounds like you're shifting the design of the multiplayer game to include some actual online elements...and not just PbEM. If you already have a stand-alone server to process binary files and generate results, then you could leverage that in order to allow players to play completely through the browser if they like, no?

Exactly my thoughts. The client program is going to be very straightforward, simply serving as a GUI to take your turn. All multiplayer game simulatiosn would be done on a host machine. The only complexity it woudl have is the ability to use the same simulation code to play single player games, though I think he funness will be in competing with other human players, so that is where the emphasis shoudl lie.

Once the data requirements are determined, there's no reason why the same functionality could not be built in to ASP (to leverage VB developers who want to help) or JSP (for hte java devs). I see the reports in the client simply being generated HTML in an Explorer window, so that shoudl easliy port to the web.

Quote:

Another thing to keep in mind is this...much like other online games, this doesn't have to (nor from what I've read to I believe that you intend it to) stand as a single server with worldwide play. It could be a farm of servers, hosted by anyone who has the bandwidth and desire. In that case, the idea of allowing a player to move his "company" from server universe to server universe would be interesting...but potentially complicated if you want to prevent cheating.

Its the cheating issue that concrens me. I thought about this (each server beinga world) in a different game that I never developed, and the transferring was the issue, simply because a cheater could ruin an entire world. Though it should be allowed so that server admins (like the game will be that popular) have the ability to organize inter server tournaments (my best companies against your best companies). This would be a way to establish trust relatinoships which could allow for migration of companies. It definately shoudl be planned on, but not required - it shoudl be up to the admin if they want ot run a closed or open world.

WSUCougar · 04-10-2003, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fido
I struggled with this issue the most. I considered the units approach, but you still have problems with members of units getting killed, weakening the unit's effectiveness. Plus I don't think you would have the same attachment to a unit that you woudl have to a single "person".

I actually had some decent work-arounds for the weakening issue. A necessary strategy decision for the "owner" was how many resources to commit to training and maintaining a reserve to replace losses (per unit or generic). A unit would not lose much effectiveness until it reached a threshold of losses, or was dealt a devastating loss (I termed it "decimated") which would lower all stats/ratings accordingly. Thus withdrawal of units nearing their loss threshold was another key strategic decision.

As for personal attachment to units, I found the contrary to be true. It might be a different type of attachment, but it was definitely there for me.

Quote:

I decided that the game itself can be made to discourage killing through financial penalties and vendettas. It is up to each owner to determine if his stable is encouraged to killopponents or show mercy. Consistency will be awarded (fame/infamy) which will make upir stable a sought after commodity. Consistent killing will make you feared, and people will not want ot compete against you. Also, each warrior will have his/her own morals, so insisting someone who doesnt want to kill to kill will have an effect on their performance, and attitude towards you.

Personally, I'm leaning towards having super healing staff that can work near miracles (if you are willing to pay for their skill) and revive near dead competitors.

These are good ideas.

Quote:

Plus naval units would allow for the introcustion of Collosal Squids

OH yeah!!!

Fido · 04-10-2003, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by WSUCougar
I actually had some decent work-arounds for the weakening issue. A necessary strategy decision for the "owner" was how many resources to commit to training and maintaining a reserve to replace losses (per unit or generic). A unit would not lose much effectiveness until it reached a threshold of losses, or was dealt a devastating loss (I termed it "decimated") which would lower all stats/ratings accordingly. Thus withdrawal of units nearing their loss threshold was another key strategic decision.

As for personal attachment to units, I found the contrary to be true. It might be a different type of attachment, but it was definitely there for me.

Well, this is a major snag that we need to decide on one way or the other before much progress can be made. It has far reaching impacts on the rest of the design (as well as the background story).

You obvioulsy prefer the units based approach, I prefer the concept of solo battles with two warriors meeting each other. But since I made this a team design effort I'll procede with whatever concept people find most appealing.

sabotai · 04-10-2003, 01:49 PM

This sounds pretty good. I'd be willing to help out, although I don't know how much time I could devote to it giving my other projects.

Just a little history tidbit though, death in gladiator fights during the Roman times were not that common. In fact, most recent historical evidence suggests that it was pretty uncommon for a gladiator to die in contest.

If we're basing the whole death thing on historical reasons, then it might not be something we have to dwell over (but still need to work out) since it wasn't as common as people think it was.

Fido · 04-10-2003, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sabotai
Just a little history tidbit though, death in gladiator fights during the Roman times were not that common. In fact, most recent historical evidence suggests that it was pretty uncommon for a gladiator to die in contest.

If we're basing the whole death thing on historical reasons, then it might not be something we have to dwell over (but still need to work out) since it wasn't as common as people think it was.

That's te benefot of placing this is a fantasy realm - you don't have to worry about historical reality.

The real problem here is not so much being accurate, but rather, having spent effort developing a competitor to have them killed.

WSUCougar · 04-10-2003, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fido
Well, this is a major snag that we need to decide on one way or the other before much progress can be made. It has far reaching impacts on the rest of the design (as well as the background story).

You obvioulsy prefer the units based approach, I prefer the concept of solo battles with two warriors meeting each other. But since I made this a team design effort I'll procede with whatever concept people find most appealing.

I wouldn't call it a major snag. We can work it either way - it's simply something that I wrestled with quite a bit during my own game design efforts, and found that the unit-based approached worked pretty darn well.

A related issue is tactical control of combat for the player. The unit-based approach lends itself well to making various decisions in the battle. A man-to-man battle is ultra-tactical, but I'm uncertain what (if any) decisions the player would have to make.

Thoughts?

Fido · 04-10-2003, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WSUCougar
I wouldn't call it a major snag. We can work it either way - it's simply something that I wrestled with quite a bit during my own game design efforts, and found that the unit-based approached worked pretty darn well.

A related issue is tactical control of combat for the player. The unit-based approach lends itself well to making various decisions in the battle. A man-to-man battle is ultra-tactical, but I'm uncertain what (if any) decisions the player would have to make.

Thoughts?

I think it is a major snag - as it, in effect prevents the development of the rules system, combat engine, and character traits (they would have to be more elaborate for single combat).

AS for the techinical control - I guess we weren't as in phase as you had thought. I picture this being a turn based game. You select yoru fighters, train them, equip them, give them tactits to use, then send them off to their tournaments and then see how they fared. You can give them the perfect battle plan, but if things start to go to hell during the battle, they're left to think and react for themselves. Giving in battle tactical decision making abilities to the player moves this into a RTS type game, where you will have to be there for the battles, which greatly affects the multiplayer playability.

I don't know...maybe we have radically different ideas about this and its not the best project to try.

sabotai · 04-10-2003, 02:59 PM

"That's te benefot of placing this is a fantasy realm - you don't have to worry about historical reality. The real problem here is not so much being accurate, but rather, having spent effort developing a competitor to have them killed."

Ok. I know you said no magic, but why not have some sort of resurrection thing. If a gladiator gets killed, you could have the local cleric or whatever ressurect him at a cost. That way you still have a choice to bring him back or not.

Bee · 04-10-2003, 03:02 PM

I think the risk of death is good as long as it is rare. I also like the idea of one on one versus the unit approach. JMO.

WSUCougar · 04-10-2003, 03:02 PM

Fido, I hope you're not taking my comments the wrong way. I thought we were simply discussing early design concepts, but it sounds like you already have a set vision of what you want to do. As I said before, we can do it either way, I was merely mentioning some things I ran into previously.

I am not in favor of tactical man-to-man combat for the reasons I stated above, so that's cool.

It's all good.

Draft Dodger · 04-10-2003, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bee
I think the risk of death is good as long as it is rare. I also like the idea of one on one versus the unit approach. JMO.

me agree with bee

Bee · 04-10-2003, 03:05 PM

Dola:

Like I said before, I'd check out the Duelmasters website and see how someone else has approached this concept just to get a feel for issues that might come up.

Havok · 04-10-2003, 03:09 PM

Heres a online game kinda like what your creating.

www.savagearena.com

Havok · 04-10-2003, 03:12 PM

dam... thats not the right URL. ill find it in a min.

sabotai · 04-10-2003, 03:48 PM

We could also have an option to turn deaths on and off at league creation. That way the people who don't want death don't have to worry about it.

Bee · 04-10-2003, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Havok
Heres a online game kinda like what your creating.

www.savagearena.com

Were you talking about this one?

Arena

Doug5984 · 04-10-2003, 05:37 PM

wow- this sounds like it could be a really cool game...i will be following this thread to watch the progress....one thing i would like to add...

"We could also have an option to turn deaths on and off at league creation. That way the people who don't want death don't have to worry about it." -Sabotai

I think that would be a good idea, I have no idea how programming works so I am not sure how hard it would be...but maybe a slider for the frequency of deaths....the more options the better....atleast that is something I look for in a game...

Fido · 04-10-2003, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WSUCougar
Fido, I hope you're not taking my comments the wrong way. I thought we were simply discussing early design concepts, but it sounds like you already have a set vision of what you want to do. As I said before, we can do it either way, I was merely mentioning some things I ran into previously.

I am not in favor of tactical man-to-man combat for the reasons I stated above, so that's cool.

It's all good.

I don't think I was. All I was getting at is that is we can't agree on something as fundamental as Real time vs turn based then the project is doomed. We also could have problems because there's no real project manager - someone who has the ultimate vision of the project and who settlkes any stalemates in design decisoins. Normally that woudl fall on the creator's shoulders...which would be you, I believe.

Fido · 04-10-2003, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sabotai
We could also have an option to turn deaths on and off at league creation. That way the people who don't want death don't have to worry about it.

Could easily be implemented...sort of an intervention by the Gods that resurects the dead.

A three option approach may be best -

No death - Resurrection chance is 100%
Permanent death - Resurrection chance in 0%
Standard death - Resurrection chance is equal to the percentage of time the victim showed mercy in victory. (If you kill everyone you beat, you ain't coming back if you die - 0% mercy rate)

That way the resurrection coudl could remain the same, only the success rate computation would need to change.

sabotai · 04-10-2003, 06:46 PM

Fide, that sounds good for ressurections. Also like the idea of a slider to determine frequency of deaths.

And the gladiator should get some kind of punishment for dying of course, but we can get to that later.

Fido · 04-10-2003, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sabotai
Fide, that sounds good for ressurections. Also like the idea of a slider to determine frequency of deaths.

And the gladiator should get some kind of punishment for dying of course, but we can get to that later.

Good point. A slider means there only needs to be two cases, Standard Deaths and Custom Death chance (varriable from 0% to 100%). And yeah, dying will have an impact on fame, courage, and health.

WSUCougar · 04-10-2003, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fido
All I was getting at is that is we can't agree on something as fundamental as Real time vs turn based then the project is doomed.

Not to worry, I am very much in favor of turn-based. I think where our concepts parted ways was that the unit-style game I had was more battle-oriented (though still turn-based). But again, I was only raising those points for discussion as potential obstacles to overcome.

I have a full "world" with kingdoms already in place. Should I run these by you guys for comments, or how do you want to work this?

We also need some more recruits for the project.

Eilim · 04-10-2003, 08:27 PM

I just wanted to say I'll be watching this project's progress with great interest. I'm actually working on a similar game. (My project is more of a Monster Rancher meets Pokemon.) Wish you guys the best of luck and can't wait to see how it all turns out.

-Eilim

sabotai · 04-10-2003, 09:05 PM

Well, I said I didn't want to get too involved with this because I didn't want to spread myself too thin. However, since the "open source" project seems to have gone dead, I'll plan to put some more time into this. (That is to say, if this one does not die.)

Put me down as Interface designer...

Once some of the other parts are more clearly defined, I'll be bale to judge better how much time they'll take up and I might be able to somethign else as well (Combat, Auction, one of the creative developements, graphics, etc.)

the_meanstrosity · 04-11-2003, 01:22 AM

I've just read a bit, but if you're interested in using Java at all I may be able to help. If not, no big deal. I still need to read the rest of the documentation tomorrow so I'll drop by and see your response then.

Draft Dodger · 04-15-2003, 06:58 PM

sachmo71 · 04-16-2003, 09:26 AM

Might I suggest someone download Crush! Deluxe from Underdogs? I think it has some really, really strong features.

sabotai · 04-17-2003, 11:02 PM

*sniff*

Yup, I smell a dead project around here somewhere...

Fido · 04-18-2003, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sachmo71
Might I suggest someone download Crush! Deluxe from Underdogs? I think it has some really, really strong features.

Definately a neat game, but lacking in long term playability.

Fido · 04-18-2003, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sabotai
*sniff*

Yup, I smell a dead project around here somewhere...

The project is not dead. The notion of doing it as a team may be, but I'm going to get started on in after I get back from vacation.

sachmo71 · 04-18-2003, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fido
Definately a neat game, but lacking in long term playability.

And if someone could change that...well, lets just say I might plop down some cash for it! Plus, I don't think those changes would be hard to make at all. More stats, more player depth, more customization, etc.

Bee · 05-19-2003, 09:39 AM

Did this die on the vine?

04-10-2003, 07:38 AM	#3
Fido High School Varsity Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: New Hampshire, USA	Game Overview I can not take credit for the idea of the game, but I can and do take full credit for stealing it from WSU Cougar. The game is set in a fantasy world, and you task is the development and managing of a stable of gladiators. The world will be D&D like in that it will contain a large set of humanoid races, each of which has its own strengths and weaknesses (or is pretty much average like Humans - simply because they are what the other races are compared against). The main difference between this world and the D&D world is magic - it simply will not exist in this game world, meaning combat will be melee/ranged combat only. This greatly simplifies the development process, and eliminates the need to create/code/balance/play test a large number of spells. The game will be designed as a multi-player game playable through e-mail. The method of multiplayer gaming is unfortunate, but necessary due to the reality of me not having the resources to commit to a dedicated server with a dedicated Internet connection. Single player games will also be available, where the player will compete against one or more Computer controlled players. The game will be turn based, with one turn representing a week of game time. All actions will take place simultaneously, so two players have an equal opportunity to perform a given action, regardless on the order in which they complete their turns. The purchase of goods will all be through E-Bay style auctions, and items will be sold to the highest builder, which will help to ensure that items are available to all players. You will be responsible for the upkeep of the Warriors in your stable. These are slaves that you either purchase at auctions or from breeders or, alternatively, that you breed yourself, provided that you have adequate breeding stock. The upkeep items you will be responsible for include housing, food, medical attention and security. You will also have the ability to hire staff to perform actions that you are either incapable of or that you lack the time to do. Staff positions will include Medics, Trainers, Breeders, Promoters, Buyers, and Security. The game will also include Heroes – former warriors who have been granted their freedom but who choose to continue fighting. Heroes will generally be much better than normal warriors, but they are mercenary in nature, signing contracts with the highest bidders, and getting paid based on their abilities. Every character (whether warrior, Hero, or Employee) will have a skill set which governs their ability to perform specific tasks. This is not a complete design (its not even close). It is intended as an overview of the game that I am attempting to make.

04-10-2003, 07:42 AM	#4
Fido High School Varsity Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: New Hampshire, USA	Background Story ONe of the first things I do after getting some kind of a concept is to make sure that the scenario makes sense. If its unrealistic then you have problems with people buying into it (yourself included). So I threw together a background story (mostly for myself, but I'm posting it just because it is part of the process). Disclaimer I'm a programmer not an author. This story is not meant to be a thrilling read, it simply applies some reasoning as to why these gladiator matches occur, the background behind them, etc. This is meant ot be the basis for the introduction in the game manual, but is subject to change without notice as people with talent sign on to the project. Disclaimer For ages the land of Mithira had been at war. Tribes would battle for hunting grounds, absorbing the people and territories that they had conquered. These tribes soon became nations led by bloodthirsty dictators who sought to expand their power and influence by crushing their neighbors. The nations expanded and clashed, eliminating the weak while the stronger became stronger. Soon the nations had expanded to encompass all members of a given race. The leaders now had control not over a country, but an entire species, yet their thirst for conquest was not quenched. Questions arose over the dominant species on the planet, and soon massive armies were formed as races went to war with each other. These armies were led not by the rulers themselves, but by elite soldiers, Champions that represented the will of their rulers and inspired fear and respect in their men. On the battlefield, they had no equal, able to cut through hordes of enemy soldiers with little effort. During battles, it was inevitable that the Champions of the two sides would meet in solo combat, and when this did happen, the results were striking. Soldiers from both sides forgot the battles they had been engaged in and encircled the combatants to witness the battle that often lasted for hours on end. As a champion fell, his troops realized the hopelessness of the situation and fled the battlefield in disgrace. The Champions became legends, respected and looked up to by their brethren, feared and hated by their enemies. The wars lasted for generations, the weakest of the races eventually being completely eliminated form the planet, but the remaining races reaching a stalemate of sorts, but still the wars raged on. Until the Peace Keepers arrived one winter. These were ordinary men, but they wielded powerful artifacts that granted them control over the elements themselves. They easily dispatched the leaders of the world, and assumed control over the entire planet. Unlike all of their predecessors, these new rulers did not have a thirst for blood. They regretted war and thought it should be avoided at all costs. They divided the planet into nations and gave control back to the citizens, but forbade wars for all time. From time to time, the Nations’ leaders had disputes, and resorted back to the ways of their ancestors to settle them – they mustered armies and sent them to battle. But the battles never occurred – the Peace Keepers, seemingly omnipotent eliminated the armies and their leaders before a battle could even be fought, demonstrating that war was, in fact, a thing of the past. This was not taken well by the champions – men who had devoted their entire lives to being successful in battle. They had lost their livelihood, but more importantly they longed for the respect generated from vanquishing a foe. They began staging battles against each other and charging admission to witness them. The battled started in back rooms, then progressed into warehouses, and eventually massive stadiums. People still had the bloodlust, and this was a way to experience battles without fear of reprisals from the Peace Keepers. The Champions began making large amounts of money, and living extravagant lifestyles. This led to a problem – while there had always been a certain level of respect for each other (Champions rarely killed each other after a well fought battle, even in times of war), but adrenaline level did get high and incidents did occur. They valued their lifestyles, but the people demanded extravagant tournaments with dozens of competitors. Champions were faced with the prospect of having to survive through multiple rounds of competition to win the prizes. They began getting together and arranging tournaments that included only two champions – the remainder of the field dilled in with trained slaves. The slaves were decent fighters, and made for entertaining show in the early rounds, but posed no real threat to the Champions who now had only the final battle to be prepared for. These slaves were considered like livestock, and the collections became known as stables. What they did not count on was the ability of these slaves to learn their skills. They had nothing to do with their time but to train, and wanted nothing more than to be free. As the slaves grew in power, they became dangerous to keep, and were eventually sold by their owners. The improved level of competition only increased the populance’s love of the events. Enterprising men took this opportunity to enter into the glamorous world of Gladiatorial Combat. They purchased the Slaves and built their own stables around them. They invested huge amounts of money in elaborate training facilities, they purchased the best slaves and equipped them with the best equipment. These businessmen radically changed the competitions, as they were able to field entire stables of warriors who were approaching the Champions themselves in skill. Soon the Champions decided that the fame and fortune was no longer worth the risks, and that they had lost control over the events that had created. Combat was now a business.

04-10-2003, 07:49 AM	#5
Fido High School Varsity Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: New Hampshire, USA	Development Team Ok, this is going to look pathetic right now, since it will basically be me typing my name over and over again, but I'm throwing it in so that it can be near the top of the thread and can be edited to reflect additions: Any unfilled positions are available if anyone wants to jump on board. Any positions I left out are unfilled (obviously) and will be added as they are brought to my attention. Technical Director: Fido Lead programmer: Fido Combat Engine Developer: Auction Engine Developer: Interface Designer: Multiplayer Engine Processor: HTML/JSP/ASP output design: Draft Dodger Additional Development: Aylmar Creative Director: WSU Cougar Race Development: Weapons Development: World Development: Computer Opponent Developer: Playtesters: Usability Testers: Doccumentation (Manual): Doccumentation (Online Help): (see? I said it was going to look pathetic) Last edited by Fido : 04-10-2003 at 12:33 PM.

04-10-2003, 08:05 AM	#6
Fido High School Varsity Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: New Hampshire, USA	Technical Specifications Target Platform Windows Home versions (95, 9x, Me, XP Home). While the game may function on the office versions (NT, 2000, XP Pro) it is being designed to ensure that it works on the home systems. Development Language C++. Sorry to any of you Java/vb programmers who wanted to be involved, but I think having a single language so that all code can be compiled into executable version on one system is important. Limiting the language to a single language is the easiest way to ensure this. Source Code this is intende dto be a closed source project. The code will be made freely available to those taking part, and to those who express an interest in looking at it, but not ot the general public. Cost The game will be released as freeware initially. Pending its success the parties involved will be allowed to decide if/how much to charge for the game. All proceeds will be distributed to the contributors based on their participation in the development process (this is going to be hard to gauge, and will have to be a group decision so as not to offend anyone). The possibility of lawsuits is real here so great though will need to be put into whether to ever charge for this game or not. Requirements the following technical features are required and must be taken into account in all design decisions: Scripting - Computer opponents will be specific. The player "Collosal Squid" shoudl play pretty much the same every time you play against him/her (how do you tell the sex of a squid). This will be accomplished through scripting. Game integrity - the multiplayer version of the game should be developed to be as cheat-free as possible. All simulation will be performed on the host computer. All datafiles sent in to the host need to be verified for any tampering. Replayability - while computer opponents shoudl play the same, the game itself should not. Random events, random warrior creation, and random starting conditions shoudl aid in this, but care must be taken to ensure that this is not a one shot deal of a game. Detail is a must - configurable, detailed reports covering anything anyone may want ot know shoudl be available in the game. Well documented Data Files - any dat afiles the game creates will be well documented and that documentation will be provided to the general publc allowing for easier creation of third party utilities. Direct Web support - the Game will be capable of generating HTML/JSP/ASP pages based on the results of gameplay. Configurable micromanagement level - the game should range from complete hands off to a hands in everything levels of micromanagement. Every aspect of the game shoudl be manageable by an employee, but no aspect should require emplyees perform them. These specifications are subject to change (as is everything else in this thread).

04-10-2003, 08:05 AM	#7
Bee Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Fairfax, VA	There used to be a few games similar in style that were PBM (Play by Mail) back in the early to mid 80's. One was called "Duelmasters", another"Blood Pit", I think there were a few more as well. That might be a good place for WSUCougar to get some research material. I think I still have some output from some of the games that I could send WSUCougar if he'd like to see it (just to get a feel for what has been done before). I think this is a good choice Fido. Edit: Actually, here's a link to a page about Duelmasters looks like they may have an email game now. linky Edit #2: BTW, Not saying you should copy them or even do something "similar" to what they are doing. I just thought it would be a good idea to see what others have done along the same lines. Last edited by Bee : 04-10-2003 at 08:43 AM.

04-10-2003, 06:48 AM	#2
Bee Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Fairfax, VA	So did you decide to go with the online college football game?

04-10-2003, 10:58 AM	#9
WSUCougar Rider Of Rohan Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Port Angeles, WA or Helm's Deep	I'm on board. I think this is an exciting project. A few operational questions: (1) Should we establish a realistic timetable? Already Fido has moved at a remarkable speed, taking the seed of an idea and exploding it into an initial design concept. While certainly impressed, I cannot match that kind of output (if for no other reason than available time). I realize that this might have just been an initial spasm of creative juices (ewww!), but I wanted to be up front about time/output expectations. (2) From our team perspective (not the player's, I mean), is this project aimed at "fun project," "marketable product," or a combination? I am content either way, but I'm not clear on your guys' stance. (3) Do we have or know of anyone artistic? I have some possible contacts, but I haven't heard of anyone at FOFC with those skills. (4) When it comes to technical programming issues, please talk slow. As for the game and what Fido has already laid out, I'd like to throw something in for consideration before we plunge too far ahead. Something that I’ve run into as I tinkered with this game concept (for a board game, not a computer game) was that blending a sports-type text sim with gladiatorial combat produces some issues/concerns. One of them is that gladiator combat was often (if not almost always) lethal, and thus simulating it sours the sports gaming concept of team-building, cohesion, etc. With that in mind, I worked a pretty good system that used units of gladiators, rather than individuals. The scope was broadened so that instead of ultra-tactical individual combat, “battles” were waged across a standard battlefield. Ratings, stats, etc., were all targeted toward unit level. Individuals played key roles (leaders, spies, assassins, etc.). Naval units were also included. Instead of death/destruction, capturing and holding portions of the battlefield (primary/secondary/tertiary “goals”) were grounds for victory. Anyway, I think we might want to discuss this some as a team. __________________ It's not the years...it's the mileage.

04-10-2003, 01:49 PM	#15
sabotai General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Satellite of Love	This sounds pretty good. I'd be willing to help out, although I don't know how much time I could devote to it giving my other projects. Just a little history tidbit though, death in gladiator fights during the Roman times were not that common. In fact, most recent historical evidence suggests that it was pretty uncommon for a gladiator to die in contest. If we're basing the whole death thing on historical reasons, then it might not be something we have to dwell over (but still need to work out) since it wasn't as common as people think it was.

04-10-2003, 02:59 PM	#19
sabotai General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Satellite of Love	"That's te benefot of placing this is a fantasy realm - you don't have to worry about historical reality. The real problem here is not so much being accurate, but rather, having spent effort developing a competitor to have them killed." Ok. I know you said no magic, but why not have some sort of resurrection thing. If a gladiator gets killed, you could have the local cleric or whatever ressurect him at a cost. That way you still have a choice to bring him back or not.

04-10-2003, 03:02 PM	#20
Bee Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Fairfax, VA	I think the risk of death is good as long as it is rare. I also like the idea of one on one versus the unit approach. JMO.

04-10-2003, 03:05 PM	#23
Bee Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Fairfax, VA	Dola: Like I said before, I'd check out the Duelmasters website and see how someone else has approached this concept just to get a feel for issues that might come up.

04-10-2003, 03:09 PM	#24
Havok College Starter Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Florida	Heres a online game kinda like what your creating. www.savagearena.com __________________ Maniacal Misfitz - We're better than you and we know it!

04-10-2003, 03:12 PM	#25
Havok College Starter Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Florida	dam... thats not the right URL. ill find it in a min. __________________ Maniacal Misfitz - We're better than you and we know it!

04-10-2003, 03:48 PM	#26
sabotai General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Satellite of Love	We could also have an option to turn deaths on and off at league creation. That way the people who don't want death don't have to worry about it.

04-10-2003, 05:37 PM	#28
Doug5984 College Benchwarmer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Louisiana	wow- this sounds like it could be a really cool game...i will be following this thread to watch the progress....one thing i would like to add... "We could also have an option to turn deaths on and off at league creation. That way the people who don't want death don't have to worry about it." -Sabotai I think that would be a good idea, I have no idea how programming works so I am not sure how hard it would be...but maybe a slider for the frequency of deaths....the more options the better....atleast that is something I look for in a game...

04-10-2003, 06:46 PM	#31
sabotai General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Satellite of Love	Fide, that sounds good for ressurections. Also like the idea of a slider to determine frequency of deaths. And the gladiator should get some kind of punishment for dying of course, but we can get to that later.

04-10-2003, 08:27 PM	#34
Eilim High School Varsity Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Foxboro,MA	I just wanted to say I'll be watching this project's progress with great interest. I'm actually working on a similar game. (My project is more of a Monster Rancher meets Pokemon.) Wish you guys the best of luck and can't wait to see how it all turns out. -Eilim

04-10-2003, 09:05 PM	#35
sabotai General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Satellite of Love	Well, I said I didn't want to get too involved with this because I didn't want to spread myself too thin. However, since the "open source" project seems to have gone dead, I'll plan to put some more time into this. (That is to say, if this one does not die.) Put me down as Interface designer... Once some of the other parts are more clearly defined, I'll be bale to judge better how much time they'll take up and I might be able to somethign else as well (Combat, Auction, one of the creative developements, graphics, etc.)

04-11-2003, 01:22 AM	#36
the_meanstrosity College Benchwarmer Join Date: Oct 2002	I've just read a bit, but if you're interested in using Java at all I may be able to help. If not, no big deal. I still need to read the rest of the documentation tomorrow so I'll drop by and see your response then.

04-15-2003, 06:58 PM	#37
Draft Dodger Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Keene, NH	bump __________________ Mile High Hockey

04-16-2003, 09:26 AM	#38
sachmo71 The boy who cried Trout Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: TX	Might I suggest someone download Crush! Deluxe from Underdogs? I think it has some really, really strong features.

04-17-2003, 11:02 PM	#39
sabotai General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Satellite of Love	sniff Yup, I smell a dead project around here somewhere...

05-19-2003, 09:39 AM	#43
Bee Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Fairfax, VA	Did this die on the vine?

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