FBI Opens Investigation into Shooting of Michael Brown

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Harkening back to my FIL and the "not belonging here" sentiment, how do we get beyond stuff like this?

Pokémon GoÂ*Could Be A Death Sentence For A Black Man



I know Tiger and others like to be prepared for any situation. Does anyone (white) prepare for having to deal with this?

Be a unfamiliar white guy wandering through (or even near in some cases, depending upon location) one of the Athens-area housing projects, see how long it takes before the cops have a little chat with you. Over/under is about 2 minutes if they see you.

*Quick local geography lesson: I singled out "housing project" in particular because there's a heavily black-skewed one here that I drive by on a regular basis, it's on a primary ingress/egress to downtown, and has perfectly innocent reasons that an unfamiliar person could be walking past (or, if they're brave enough, through). But it's not at all unusual to see cops pulled over to have a quick chat with them when it happens.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

A white person walking around Englewood probably has a unique situation too.

The cops would probably stop him and ask him if he was lost.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Be a unfamiliar white guy wandering through (or even near in some cases, depending upon location) one of the Athens-area housing projects, see how long it takes before the cops have a little chat with you. Over/under is about 2 minutes if they see you.

*Quick local geography lesson: I singled out "housing project" in particular because there's a heavily black-skewed one here that I drive by on a regular basis, it's on a primary ingress/egress to downtown, and has perfectly innocent reasons that an unfamiliar person could be walking past (or, if they're brave enough, through). But it's not at all unusual to see cops pulled over to have a quick chat with them when it happens.

Like flere asks though - is that because they think the white person is suspicious, or are they looking out for their well-being? Do they really think a white guy is looking to case the projects? (Looking to stir up trouble, maybe, but I doubt he'd be alone then.)

It still points out to a perception issue though - the black person belongs in a poor area, not a prosperous one. A white person belongs in a prosperous area, not a housing project (ok, that's not to say that there aren't poor whites, but they probably choose to live in a poor white area).

I guess the test would be (if such a test was possible) to drop a white person in a well-to-do black neighborhood and see what happens.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

The cops would probably stop him and ask him if he was lost.

Cops are too busy chasing gunshot calls to worry about that.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Like flere asks though - is that because they think the white person is suspicious, or are they looking out for their well-being? Do they really think a white guy is looking to case the projects? (Looking to stir up trouble, maybe, but I doubt he'd be alone then.)

They're usually there to buy drugs. (Honestly, I thought that implication -- that they were up to no good -- was so obvious that I didn't spell it out.) The projects in question are kind of notorious around here. Trust me, unless you look like a clueless college student two weeks after fall semester starts, those stops are NOT "making sure they're okay".

I guess the test would be (if such a test was possible) to drop a white person in a well-to-do black neighborhood and see what happens.

Very likely depends heavily on the appearance & behavior of the random drop off. I mean, one of the oldest lessons I learned in school was the importance of looking like you had a purpose, knew where you were going, and were doing nothing out of the ordinary. Be twitchy, skulk, you're gonna get questions.

Then again, I've found consistently the people most suspicious of black youths to be middle (or higher) income blacks. The most unrealistic thing about the Uncle Ruckus character from Boondocks was his manner of speech, not what he said.

[cuervo72]

/smacks head

Well, that shows you how much I think about buying drugs.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

/smacks head

Well, that shows you how much I think about buying drugs.

There's a couple of other streets (one very near this spot, another a few miles away) that come to mind where the presence of a white person would immediately be cause for suspicion/investigation. Athens quite possibly has more all-black neighborhoods than all-white ones (I can only think of maybe one of the latter, several of the former however). You plop a white guy on foot there & it's going to raise an eyebrow, probably from several different quarters for different reasons all at the same time. The obvious stuff being "why are you here", "how did you get here", and "where are you going" ... we ain't a big just walk around for several miles sorta town, not outside the hipster neighborhoods or the campus area anyhow.

-------------
And before anybody even tries to throw any of of systemic "ghetto" stuff into that, at least one of those neighborhoods has been 99%+ black for decades.

Local history as I've seen it told is that it was originally the site of the first real stable middle class black neighborhood in the area, the houses eventually passed down to another generation, in some cases more than one gen. They're in decline now but that's been a function of some of those original families either dying off or simply moving to more upscale neighborhoods / other areas entirely.

[Dutch]

And then there is....BLM remarking that the Dallas shooting was the result of a lone gunman and the entire movement shouldn't be condemned for it. You mean, like all cops shouldnt be condemned for the actions of a few???

I'm confused...but not really.

[jeff061]

Well, I didn't see the protesters circle around and protect the Dallas shooter. That's usually what happens when a cop murders someone, even the good ones toe the blue line.

Aspects of BLM are very shitty(the B leading that list), but it is sparking a change where it's harder for the cops to protect their own from prosecution.

[cuervo72]

That's not an invalid point Dutch, but there's a big difference between the level of organization of the BLM movement and that of law enforcement. There's about zero chance of the movement being able to control the behavior of all black people, or reprimand/punish them if they get out of line (and really, the cops will take care of the latter; if someone kills a cop, you can be damned sure they will be a) locked up for a long time or b) dead). A department should be able to dictate and control the behavior of their force.

[Ben E Lou]

The church I was a part of in the Lowcountry was intentionally planted smack-dab in the middle of one of the most crime-ridden areas, one that was heavily black with a little Hispanic thrown in for some flavor. (Walter Scott was killed about four blocks from the church.) The church itself (at least originally before we started making inroads in the neighborhood) was middle/upper middle class and heavy majority white. We had a lot of interaction with the North Charleston PD, and at one point the chief asked us if people involved with our church would put church bumper stickers on their cars so they would be more easily identifiable. They didn't specifically mention race, but something along the lines of "because so many drugs are sold here we tend to pull people over who don't look like they belong here."

I found the same to be true in rougher parts of Atlanta. It didn't matter what race you were there; if you were in certain areas in a nice-ish car, you had a good chance of being pulled. The YL Office in DeKalb County when I first moved there was near some very rough areas. I made a wrong turn in the first week or two I was there, pulled onto a side street to turn around, and was pulled over. I didn't have a particularly nice car, but it was a fairly new Ford Tempo. After a brief conversation over my license and registration, the cop just flat-out asked what a "guy who looks and sounds like he's got a decent life is doing in this neighborhood."

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

A department should be able to dictate and control the behavior of their force.

And they do. Remarkably well.

Far better than the scumbags they're typically dealing with manage to even control their own behavior.

[Easy Mac]

The news in Greenville just said to avoid I385 near downtown because protesters are about to march onto it. Seems the best way to get everyone on your side.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

The news in Greenville just said to avoid I385 near downtown because protesters are about to match onto it. Seems the best way to get everyone on your side.

The utter lack of political savvy of the BLM protests stands in *such* contrast to the strategic actions in the MLK era to me. I get what they're trying to do and support some of it theoretically, but MAN can they be stOOpid sometimes.

[Easy Mac]

What's wrong with a group of people wearing dark clothing matching onto the main 6 lane thoroughfare into and out of the city at 10 pm?

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And they do. Remarkably well.

Far better than the scumbags they're typically dealing with manage to even control their own behavior.

By and large I guess they do, though I think there are going to be loose cannons and bad actors, and with their union (as with any union) they'll be protected, allowed to do their thing, and erode trust in the system as a whole.

I guess my problem is who's giving the orders and what those orders are. How wide are you casting your net for the "scumbags," and do you even care about collateral damage. What the ultimate goal is. "Protect and serve." Who? The haves (predominantly whites)? Those with power (predominantly whites)? Or everybody? Or is the goal more population control, or simply generating revenue by busting people for every broken taillight or ticky-tack violation so taxes on "upstanding" citizens remain low?

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

That's not an invalid point Dutch, but there's a big difference between the level of organization of the BLM movement and that of law enforcement. There's about zero chance of the movement being able to control the behavior of all black people, or reprimand/punish them if they get out of line (and really, the cops will take care of the latter; if someone kills a cop, you can be damned sure they will be a) locked up for a long time or b) dead). A department should be able to dictate and control the behavior of their force.

Do communities cover for their people? The same way cops do? I think I know what "Snitches get stitches" means. It's human nature to protect your community. To suggest only cops do this is a bit naive.

[cuervo72]

So wait. Are you implying that had BLM known the identity of the shooter, they would have kept mum because "snitches get stitches?"

Again, there's a bit of a difference here. Why do you think s-g-s works? Is it because black people are just hunky-dory with their relatives and neighbors getting shot? Or are they fearful of speaking up? I mean, there's a reason you can't get stuff to stick to the mob, and it's not because of some code universal to all Italians.

[cuervo72]

(Stitches implies injury, right? I think that's what that means. Is that what that means?)

[cuervo72]

Wait, unless you mean that if good cops speak out against dirty cops, they might be fearful of some sort of reprimand. Damn, that might point to some systemic issue!

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Be a unfamiliar white guy wandering through (or even near in some cases, depending upon location) one of the Athens-area housing projects, see how long it takes before the cops have a little chat with you. Over/under is about 2 minutes if they see you.

Originally Posted by cuervo72

I know Tiger and others like to be prepared for any situation. Does anyone (white) prepare for having to deal with this?

I question the equivalence, though, Jon. Money quote from what cuervo posted:

I intentionally leave my work clothes (dress shirt and tie)on and I’m overly friendly and nice even when no one is around cause I don’t want to risk anything.

This guy is talking about how he feels he has to act in the neighborhood in which he lives. Does a white guy ever have to prepared to deal with this? To think about how he acts when he walks around his own neighborhood? Specifically to think about how to appear as non-threatening as possible so as to not risk getting a visit from the police?

I doubt a white guy ever feels that way. I certainly never have.

[RainMaker]

If I walked through Englewood or a few other neighborhoods in Chicago in business casual attire, I would be robbed within minutes (probably worse). If a cop was lucky enough to find me, they would assume I was in the community to buy drugs. Not saying it's worse but the idea that white people can just walk around with impunity is wrong.

And while it is terrible for cops to make assumptions about people, I also do think a part of that is just looking for things out of the ordinary. If a homeless person was walking around a nice suburb, a cop would likely stop them to see what's going on. If a woman is standing on the corner of a street in a very provocative outfit waving at cars, she's probably going to be looked at as well.

Not sure how that situation is fixed though. If you tell cops not to be proactive, you have less issues with innocent people, you also have more crime. In Chicago the ACLU pushed the city for heavy measures on the police where they have to go through all this paperwork each time they talk to a person. So the cops don't and crime has skyrocketed this year. Seems like it's tough to find a middle ground.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

So wait. Are you implying that had BLM known the identity of the shooter, they would have kept mum because "snitches get stitches?"

Again, there's a bit of a difference here. Why do you think s-g-s works? Is it because black people are just hunky-dory with their relatives and neighbors getting shot? Or are they fearful of speaking up? I mean, there's a reason you can't get stuff to stick to the mob, and it's not because of some code universal to all Italians.

All people in tight communities. Whether it's 1,000,000 or 2. It's human nature. Nothing more to read into it other than, it's not exclusive to cops.

[molson]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

That's not an invalid point Dutch, but there's a big difference between the level of organization of the BLM movement and that of law enforcement. There's about zero chance of the movement being able to control the behavior of all black people, or reprimand/punish them if they get out of line (and really, the cops will take care of the latter; if someone kills a cop, you can be damned sure they will be a) locked up for a long time or b) dead). A department should be able to dictate and control the behavior of their force.

There isn't one unified national police force. The Dallas officers who were killed had nothing to do with mistakes made by officers in Minnesota and Louisiana. There's nothing they could have done to prevent that.

Each agency is its own entity. An officer has to be concerned with improving his or her skills and keeping his or her emotions in check. And they have to be concerned with the officers around them, which is usually the ones they work with directly. (though really, they should mostly be concerned with their own performance, except when it comes to reporting wrongdoing of other officers - and opportunities for the latter are much less common than people on the internet seem to think - the majority of police misconduct happens pretty suddenly in a moment, there's not a lot of ongoing conspiracies that are broadly known in the department and can be reported.) The culture of the department, the policies, the training employed, etc., are a product of the supervisors, and to some extent, the state legislators who provide funding. Most do really well, but there's still no guarantees, when the stakes are so high every day.

One step below generalizing an entire group is "Good Muslims should stop terrorists" kind of stuff. That's a slightly more PC-way of assigning negative characteristics to a group. A more PC-way of blaming the group for the actions of any individual member. But none of us want our friends or our families or our co-workers to do bad things. That doesn't mean we don't put tons of effort into trying and improving any group we're in. Putting yourself out there and making sacrifices to that end is hard - labeling groups is easy. Edit: But, I should offer this, I'm kind of indirectly in law enforcement, in that I work with officers (and have represented counties and the state when they fire officers to help them legally justify those firings) - if there's anything you think I can do to prevent the next unjustified shooting in the United States, I will do it. Honestly, I would do anything. And maybe you could promise to prevent any wrongdoing committed by any group you belong to - your family, co-workers, religion, race, etc.

[molson]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

It still points out to a perception issue though - the black person belongs in a poor area, not a prosperous one. A white person belongs in a prosperous area, not a housing project (ok, that's not to say that there aren't poor whites, but they probably choose to live in a poor white area).

Police officers didn't invent the concepts of racial injustice and racial economic disparity. They're just thrown into the messy realities in more intense ways than you and I are. And those realities are, in the U.S. - black people are disproportionally more likely to live in poor communities, and black people commit a disproportionate amount of violent crimes. They only way for U.S. police officers to interact with black people at proportional rates with white people is to make race-based policing decisions.

And I'm really bewildered in this side-discussion in this thread about how black people have it more difficult than white people when it comes to perceptions of their activities - no shit. Black people have it harder than white people in EVERY way in the U.S. - economic, health-wise, crime, education, ect. Police didn't create that, they just have to try to enforce law as fairly as possible in a society that is not at all fair.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I question the equivalence, though, Jon. Money quote from what cuervo posted:



This guy is talking about how he feels he has to act in the neighborhood in which he lives. Does a white guy ever have to prepared to deal with this? To think about how he acts when he walks around his own neighborhood? Specifically to think about how to appear as non-threatening as possible so as to not risk getting a visit from the police?

I doubt a white guy ever feels that way. I certainly never have.

Didn't the same statement also have a bit about how (paraphrasing) he hardly ever gets out in the neighborhood? That led me to believe he wasn't necessarily a familiar sight to his neighbors; i.e. an unidentified stranger.

And those can get a call to the cops on a not infrequent basis everywhere I've lived, regardless of race.

And, yes, I'm conscious of my behavior / carryage on the rare occasion that I venture two streets over into the far side of the neighborhood where I've lived for close to a decade. While not entirely a recluse, I doubt half those people on the far side of the hill (there aren't any through-streets in here, so I have rare reason to ever be over there, and their only route out doesn't pass my house) have ever seen me enough to consciously know that I'm technically a neighbor.

Maybe the issue isn't nearly so much that this fella was conscious of his appearance & environment as it is that there's a whole bunch of white folks that are foolishly UNconscious of their own.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

By and large I guess they do, though I think there are going to be loose cannons and bad actors, and with their union (as with any union) they'll be protected, allowed to do their thing, and erode trust in the system as a whole.

I guess my problem is who's giving the orders and what those orders are. How wide are you casting your net for the "scumbags," and do you even care about collateral damage. What the ultimate goal is. "Protect and serve." Who? The haves (predominantly whites)? Those with power (predominantly whites)? Or everybody? Or is the goal more population control, or simply generating revenue by busting people for every broken taillight or ticky-tack violation so taxes on "upstanding" citizens remain low?

I want them to enforce the law. Period. I'm sorry, but just because I'm not a fucking criminal doesn't mean that I carry anywhere enough guilt to let others get away with being scofflaws.

Black, white, purple. Matters not a whit to me.

Do you even bother to read the rap sheets of most of these "victims" that manage to get themselves shot? Or do you just make excuse for them and assume that somehow "the man" is to blame.

Christ almighty, reading inane crap like you typed makes me sick to my fucking stomach. It's pathetic. Literally nauseating.

Have a nice life bro, but I honestly don't think I can even manage to be civil to you any time soon after reading that horseshit.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Sorry cuervo72 is a moderator/admin and you are not allowed to ignore him or her.

Oh ffs.

What a tragic joke.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Or do you just make excuse for them and assume that somehow "the man" is to blame.

You didn't like them downplaying the rape of a juvenile and choking of a woman?

Communities that martyr people like Alton Sterling deserve the communities they get.

[thesloppy]

For me, it's just kind of interesting to hear how different the expectations are for having a close encounter with a cop just walking around. In just about any urban Portland neighborhood there's so much foot traffic...and expected/accepted sketchiness that nobody's going to get questioned by the police unless they're doing something exceptionally and obviously criminal/crazy and/or threatening. That said, PDX is it's own animal, so exceptionally liberal and white that it's hard to compare to anywhere else. Houses in my neighborhood are all typically (and amazingly/infuriatingly) over half-a-million dollars these days, but they're all probably ravaged for cans by a dozen homeless folks every day too. Most of the police profiling within the city limits is probably more likely confined to those homeless/gutterpunks rather than any particular race (and therefore slightly invisible to residents), but out in the suburbs I'm sure it's an entirely different story.

Conversely, my family all lives in Detroit, so on the odd years I'd make trips to visit, both as a kid and adult, the racial/demographic differences between Detroit and Portland has always been obviously striking & fascinating to me. Detroit is so much more diverse, but at the same time, so much more segregated. There's a million places where a white dude can't/would never go, twice as many for a black dude, and you don't have to be from anywhere near the area for them to be completely obvious to you, whomever you may be.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Didn't the same statement also have a bit about how (paraphrasing) he hardly ever gets out in the neighborhood? That led me to believe he wasn't necessarily a familiar sight to his neighbors; i.e. an unidentified stranger.

And those can get a call to the cops on a not infrequent basis everywhere I've lived, regardless of race.

Yep, that's how I read it. If there's anyone wandering in circles in any neighborhood I live in at twilight/dark I'm not going to call the cops but I'm certainly going to side eye them and maybe throw a heavily innuendo'd "Can I help you?" their way. And if the neighborhood is as white/racist as he implies I'd have to imagine the neighbors had picked up on him living there in the 5 years.

So (assuming this random internet comment is true), you end up in this spot where he thinks he's been racially profiled by his neighbor's. Which might very well have happened, but as far as I can tell it's just as likely that his own biases are projecting motives on a race neutral action. And unfortunately outside of the extremely local level I just don't know how you can convince someone who thinks people are silently judging them every time they walk around their neighborhood that they're wrong.

[Ben E Lou]

I've lived in heavily majority-white neighborhoods in the South for probably 80-95% of my adult life, and as such have some experience on both sides of the "neighborhood" coin. Well, and I'm also sharing because there's a reasonably amusing story involved, too.

In 1994, I lived in a neighborhood in Mableton, GA for 4-5 months. I'm pretty sure it was heavily majority white. I say "pretty sure" because my 2 roommates were white, our landlord (who lived in the same neighborhood) was white, and the dude who called the cops on me for trying to climb in the window of my own house was also white. But that said, I have to say in fairness that in the time I lived there, the 10ish minutes I spent trying to get in the house that afternoon when I was locked out was probably the longest consecutive stretch of time I spent outside in the neighborhood the entire time I lived there--which is why I say "pretty sure," since I never took the time to meet/get to know any of the neighbors. In fairness to me, it was the last few months of my 3-year training assignment on YL Staff, my previous housing situation had ended, and I just needed somewhere to crash where I could pay month-to-month for the last few months before moving to DeKalb County. Mableton was significantly off of my beaten path for work and my life in general, so basically I only went to that house to sleep.

The "call the cops" incident there happened on Memorial Day Weekend. The guy who was taking my place at work was also moving in to the house in Mableton. He didn't have a key yet, and both my roommate and I were going to be out of town for the long weekend, so I gave my house key to Joel (the new guy) so he could move in while we were gone. I get back from the beach late afternoon/early evening on Memorial Day, and in the last few miles realized that I very badly had to take a dump, but didn't remember that I did not have my house key. I pull up to the house and Bryan (other roomie) and Joel are both gone, so I have no way to get in, and Joel's dog is barking up a storm in the back yard. (At the time I'd never met Joel's dog, but since neither Bryan nor I had one, I assumed Joel as the owner was a safe bet.) The neighborhood is nowhere near any retail or fast food type places where I can get to quickly and take care of business, so I decide to check all the windows on the front of the house to see if any are unlocked (nope). I jump in the car and drive to the nearest pay phone (hello, 1994!) to try to call the person I know who lives the closest. ("Hey, um, can I come to your house and drop off a load k thx?") Nope, not home! So I decide to go in the back yard and deal with Joel's barking dog, because I know that a window back there isn't locked, and the dog looks like a lab so I figure he's not going to attack (correct answer). I grabbed a broom handle from the carport just in case, open the gate, and the dog keeps barking but backs away. I open the window, climb in, and head straight for the toilet.

While I'm sitting there, I hear three consecutive sets of three taps on the *back* door, the area with the dog. For maybe 10-15 seconds, I'm sitting there thinking "WTF??? JOEL HAS TRAINED HIS DOG TO KNOCK ON THE DOOR WHEN HE WANTS TO COME IN??????" Then I hear "police!" That caused me to jump up off the toilet and head for the back door, pants still around my ankles because I hadn't wiped yet. I open it and there are two smiling cops, one with gun drawn but not pointed. (The smiles were creepy. No idea what that was all about.) Turns out a neighbor had called the cops. He said he didn't recognize me or my car (same fairly new Ford Tempo mentioned a few posts back in the thread). That he *specifically* mentioned that car to the police was a little weird for 3 reasons, and may well speak of subtle "better-make-sure-the-cops-come-out-here-and-nail-this-black-guy" thinking (or at the very least heavily implying something that clearly wasn't true--that he would have been familiar with the car if I'd actually lived there):

1. I'd lived there for 4ish months and I didn't have to be to the office until 10am, so the car was pretty much always there in the mornings and most of the time on weekends.
2. Our house was the second house in the neighborhood from the only way out to a major road (Hwy 278). You had to pass that house to get anywhere, and quite often cars were backed up past our house waiting to make the turn.
3. It turned out that he lived across the street and just one house further into the neighborhood.

The cops were reasonably professional, but annoying, given that I was tired after a long weekend, standing there with a dirty anus, and all I wanted to do was wipe my butt and take a nap. I showed them my license with the address of the house on it, told them why I needed to get in quickly, pointed out my pants at my feet, my bags still in the car, and the big nasty pile still in the toilet as evidence that my story was the truth, and all I got was "well, we've had some people who have moved out of places and come back and stolen stuff." Eventually, I got irritated and said "look, I'm tired after a long weekend at the beach and haven't even wiped my behind yet. Apparently there's nothing I can do to prove to you that I live here, and I have no idea where my roommates are to vouch for me. I'm going to go back to the bathroom, finish doing my business, then go lie down in my bed, in my room, and take a nap. You can feel free to guard me and wait here for Bryan or Joel to get home and identify me." I was saying it to make a point, not thinking of it as an actual solution, but to my surprise, they said "ok," and sat down in the den while I went back in and finished up on the toilet. *shurg*

Bryan drove up before I could get out of the bathroom and all was well. I can't fault the guy one iota for not recognizing *me*, but yeah, that he emphasized that he didn't recognize the car sounded like he was really piling on.

On the flip side, though, everywhere else I've lived as an adult, I've acted like a decent neighbor and gotten to know the people around me, which is probably a big part of why I haven't had a single similar incident in the 22 years since then, and have never felt uncomfortable/unwelcome in any of my neighborhoods. There are racial issues that are truly unjust that need to be addressed, brought up, and eradicated, and there are racial issues that are simply minor inconveniences that should be easily written off as "just part of life," by anyone with more maturity than a 20-year-old overly-idealistic doofus. If I'm out running on a cold day and know I'm going to be in areas where I'm a less familiar site, I wear a skull cap and not a hoodie, because that's probably a safer choice for a black man out here where I live. Big freakin' deal. I've got more important things in life to worry about than whining over what constitutes a wise wardrobe choice for a black man in a white neighborhood.

And seriously, Pokemon Go???? That's just...stoopid. I live in, I think, an all-white neighborhood except for me, my two biracial kids, one adopted black girl the next street over, and the Mexican family that lives two doors down. (If there are any others, they never show up to neighborhood events, the pool, and are rarely/never outside.) But to be clear, if I saw a white person, black person, brown person, or purple person who I didn't recognize wandering around like that near my house, I'd be calling the cops. Every day, and twice on Sundays. And even if I saw my next-door neighbor--a guy I've gotten to be friends with over the last year and a half to the point where in a couple of months or so we're going to take our families and rent a house together at the beach and do a long weekend vacation together--wandering around like that, I wouldn't approach him myself. I'd be calling his wife to make sure he hadn't had a mental break or something first, before I went outside and asked "uh, what in the bloody blue hell are you DOING, dude???" But then again, I'm reasonably certain that he has the good sense not to do something that bizarre and suspicious-looking in the first place.

I guess it goes back to the "strategic" comment that I made earlier about MLK vs. BLM. Pick. Your. Battles. There are real battles that still need to be fought. Whining about hoodies and Pokemon makes you sound like the boy who cried wolf when actual real (though sometimes subtle) racism needs to be addressed.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

I've lived in heavily majority-white neighborhoods in the South for probably 80-95% of my adult life, and as such have some experience on both sides of the "neighborhood" coin. Well, and I'm also sharing because there's a reasonably amusing story involved, too.

In 1994, I lived in a neighborhood in Mableton, GA for 4-5 months. I'm pretty sure it was heavily majority white. I say "pretty sure" because my 2 roommates were white, our landlord (who lived in the same neighborhood) was white, and the dude who called the cops on me for trying to climb in the window of my own house was also white. But that said, I have to say in fairness that in the time I lived there, the 10ish minutes I spent trying to get in the house that afternoon when I was locked out was probably the longest consecutive stretch of time I spent outside in the neighborhood the entire time I lived there--which is why I say "pretty sure," since I never took the time to meet/get to know any of the neighbors. In fairness to me, it was the last few months of my 3-year training assignment on YL Staff, my previous housing situation had ended, and I just needed somewhere to crash where I could pay month-to-month for the last few months before moving to DeKalb County. Mableton was significantly off of my beaten path for work and my life in general, so basically I only went to that house to sleep.

The "call the cops" incident there happened on Memorial Day Weekend. The guy who was taking my place at work was also moving in to the house in Mableton. He didn't have a key yet, and both my roommate and I were going to be out of town for the long weekend, so I gave my house key to Joel (the new guy) so he could move in while we were gone. I get back from the beach late afternoon/early evening on Memorial Day, and in the last few miles realized that I very badly had to take a dump, but didn't remember that I did not have my house key. I pull up to the house and Bryan (other roomie) and Joel are both gone, so I have no way to get in, and Joel's dog is barking up a storm in the back yard. (At the time I'd never met Joel's dog, but since neither Bryan nor I had one, I assumed Joel as the owner was a safe bet.) The neighborhood is nowhere near any retail or fast food type places where I can get to quickly and take care of business, so I decide to check all the windows on the front of the house to see if any are unlocked (nope). I jump in the car and drive to the nearest pay phone (hello, 1994!) to try to call the person I know who lives the closest. ("Hey, um, can I come to your house and drop off a load k thx?") Nope, not home! So I decide to go in the back yard and deal with Joel's barking dog, because I know that a window back there isn't locked, and the dog looks like a lab so I figure he's not going to attack (correct answer). I grabbed a broom handle from the carport just in case, open the gate, and the dog keeps barking but backs away. I open the window, climb in, and head straight for the toilet.

While I'm sitting there, I hear three consecutive sets of three taps on the *back* door, the area with the dog. For maybe 10-15 seconds, I'm sitting there thinking "WTF??? JOEL HAS TRAINED HIS DOG TO KNOCK ON THE DOOR WHEN HE WANTS TO COME IN??????" Then I hear "police!" That caused me to jump up off the toilet and head for the back door, pants still around my ankles because I hadn't wiped yet. I open it and there are two smiling cops, one with gun drawn but not pointed. (The smiles were creepy. No idea what that was all about.) Turns out a neighbor had called the cops. He said he didn't recognize me or my car (same fairly new Ford Tempo mentioned a few posts back in the thread). That he *specifically* mentioned that car to the police was a little weird for 3 reasons, and may well speak of subtle "better-make-sure-the-cops-come-out-here-and-nail-this-black-guy" thinking (or at the very least heavily implying something that clearly wasn't true--that he would have been familiar with the car if I'd actually lived there):

1. I'd lived there for 4ish months and I didn't have to be to the office until 10am, so the car was pretty much always there in the mornings and most of the time on weekends.
2. Our house was the second house in the neighborhood from the only way out to a major road (Hwy 278). You had to pass that house to get anywhere, and quite often cars were backed up past our house waiting to make the turn.
3. It turned out that he lived across the street and just one house further into the neighborhood.

The cops were reasonably professional, but annoying, given that I was tired after a long weekend, standing there with a dirty anus, and all I wanted to do was wipe my butt and take a nap. I showed them my license with the address of the house on it, told them why I needed to get in quickly, pointed out my pants at my feet, my bags still in the car, and the big nasty pile still in the toilet as evidence that my story was the truth, and all I got was "well, we've had some people who have moved out of places and come back and stolen stuff." Eventually, I got irritated and said "look, I'm tired after a long weekend at the beach and haven't even wiped my behind yet. Apparently there's nothing I can do to prove to you that I live here, and I have no idea where my roommates are to vouch for me. I'm going to go back to the bathroom, finish doing my business, then go lie down in my bed, in my room, and take a nap. You can feel free to guard me and wait here for Bryan or Joel to get home and identify me." I was saying it to make a point, not thinking of it as an actual solution, but to my surprise, they said "ok," and sat down in the den while I went back in and finished up on the toilet. *shurg*

Bryan drove up before I could get out of the bathroom and all was well. I can't fault the guy one iota for not recognizing *me*, but yeah, that he emphasized that he didn't recognize the car sounded like he was really piling on.

On the flip side, though, everywhere else I've lived as an adult, I've acted like a decent neighbor and gotten to know the people around me, which is probably a big part of why I haven't had a single similar incident in the 22 years since then, and have never felt uncomfortable/unwelcome in any of my neighborhoods. There are racial issues that are truly unjust that need to be addressed, brought up, and eradicated, and there are racial issues that are simply minor inconveniences that should be easily written off as "just part of life," by anyone with more maturity than a 20-year-old overly-idealistic doofus. If I'm out running on a cold day and know I'm going to be in areas where I'm a less familiar site, I wear a skull cap and not a hoodie, because that's probably a safer choice for a black man out here where I live. Big freakin' deal. I've got more important things in life to worry about than whining over what constitutes a wise wardrobe choice for a black man in a white neighborhood.

And seriously, Pokemon Go???? That's just...stoopid. I live in, I think, an all-white neighborhood except for me, my two biracial kids, one adopted black girl the next street over, and the Mexican family that lives two doors down. (If there are any others, they never show up to neighborhood events, the pool, and are rarely/never outside.) But to be clear, if I saw a white person, black person, brown person, or purple person who I didn't recognize wandering around like that near my house, I'd be calling the cops. Every day, and twice on Sundays. And even if I saw my next-door neighbor--a guy I've gotten to be friends with over the last year and a half to the point where in a couple of months or so we're going to take our families and rent a house together at the beach and do a long weekend vacation together--wandering around like that, I wouldn't approach him myself. I'd be calling his wife to make sure he hadn't had a mental break or something first, before I went outside and asked "uh, what in the bloody blue hell are you DOING, dude???" But then again, I'm reasonably certain that he has the good sense not to do something that bizarre and suspicious-looking in the first place.

I guess it goes back to the "strategic" comment that I made earlier about MLK vs. BLM. Pick. Your. Battles. There are real battles that still need to be fought. Whining about hoodies and Pokemon makes you sound like the boy who cried wolf when actual real (though sometimes subtle) racism needs to be addressed.

FWIW, the cop was smiling because....patriotic undies...

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by molson

There isn't one unified national police force. The Dallas officers who were killed had nothing to do with mistakes made by officers in Minnesota and Louisiana. There's nothing they could have done to prevent that.

Each agency is its own entity.

I realize that. But that doesn't mean that each agency is a good one. Dallas appears to be, and it's horrible that they had to suffer. But there are bad ones. Some precincts are corrupt, just as some local governments are corrupt (and often they protect each other).

Originally Posted by molson

Police officers didn't invent the concepts of racial injustice and racial economic disparity. They're just thrown into the messy realities in more intense ways than you and I are.

Police officers in many areas were invented to perpetuate that injustice and economic disparity though. From slave patrols, to the Klan, to local law enforcement. That's what I'm arguing has to be stopped. I'd say it's better than it was, but it's not fully out of the system.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Dutch

FWIW, the cop was smiling because....patriotic undies...

I am so incredibly disappointed in myself for missing that joke.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

You didn't like them downplaying the rape of a juvenile and choking of a woman?

Communities that martyr people like Alton Sterling deserve the communities they get.

Juvenile who is the mother of his kids and was on that podium after he was shot. I think she'd forgiven him for that transgression.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Juvenile who is the mother of his kids and was on that podium after he was shot. I think she'd forgiven him for that transgression.

I'm a father of a 14 year old daughter. If you were the father, would you be so quip? Even so, pick something else.

Alton Sterling: Longtime Criminal and Gang Member? : snopes.com

[RainMaker]

I think the one thing I'm most scared of in this world is being mid-shit when something terrible happens. I always envision a scenario where someone breaks into the house and I have to do something covered in crap.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Juvenile who is the mother of his kids and was on that podium after he was shot. I think she'd forgiven him for that transgression.

Lot of people forgive their rapist. Doesn't make it any less a terrible crime.

Was this the same woman he choked or was that another girlfriend?

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I want them to enforce the law. Period. I'm sorry, but just because I'm not a fucking criminal doesn't mean that I carry anywhere enough guilt to let others get away with being scofflaws.

Black, white, purple. Matters not a whit to me.

Do you even bother to read the rap sheets of most of these "victims" that manage to get themselves shot? Or do you just make excuse for them and assume that somehow "the man" is to blame.

Christ almighty, reading inane crap like you typed makes me sick to my fucking stomach. It's pathetic. Literally nauseating.

Have a nice life bro, but I honestly don't think I can even manage to be civil to you any time soon after reading that horseshit.

Man, I wouldn't have thought that it wouldn't be cigarettes or internal rage that got to you in the end, but the toxicity of my ideas. But so be it. If you can't stand them, I will request Ben take away my mod rights. I don't do anything with them anyway and I'm sure others would also applaud the decision.


-------------------------------

I'll leave it at this though.

"Far better than the scumbags they're typically dealing with manage to even control their own behavior."

"Black, white, purple. Matters not a whit to me.

Do you even bother to read the rap sheets of most of these "victims" that manage to get themselves shot?"

These views are not unique to Jon. In some places, I'd bet they're even pretty prevalent. Undoubtedly, some cops hold them. They approach a situation looking for confrontation, assuming that the person opposite them is a scumbag, and is responsible if they manage to get shot. I would not want to encounter such a cop. Would you? And that's without Jon even caring about race. Would you want to be a black person pulled over by a cop with Jon's views who was also racist?

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

I will request Ben take away my mod rights. I don't do anything with them anyway and I'm sure others would also applaud the decision.

Cuerv has just made this request. He is correct that he wasn't really "modding." The main reason in my mind that I gave him super moderator level rights was "technical-oriented person with a reasonable understanding of the back end of vBulletin who could help keep things afloat if necessary should something suddenly happen to me." I'll find someone else to fill that role. I have a few people in mind.

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I want them to enforce the law. Period. I'm sorry, but just because I'm not a fucking criminal doesn't mean that I carry anywhere enough guilt to let others get away with being scofflaws.

Black, white, purple. Matters not a whit to me.

Do you even bother to read the rap sheets of most of these "victims" that manage to get themselves shot? Or do you just make excuse for them and assume that somehow "the man" is to blame.

Christ almighty, reading inane crap like you typed makes me sick to my fucking stomach. It's pathetic. Literally nauseating.

Have a nice life bro, but I honestly don't think I can even manage to be civil to you any time soon after reading that horseshit.

I think you are being coy with your motives. The purpose of OT is to spout opinion that for the most part is anti-social. It is clear there is a titillation in saying extreme things with no social/relationship recourse.

So, saying you are done with a posters suggests up until then you found them to be a valuable contributor to your understanding of things. Obviously, that's not true, you/we like to be thrown a softball of bullshit to express our passionate retort, that is all.

In this case, I'll help you tease the pony out of the pile of shit. You should say, as an example, even Miranda was wrong in expecting his rights to be given to him. Thus, there is a another class of citizenship that the Rights of the Accused should not apply - be black, white, or green.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Blue | Jon's Three Cents

[cuervo72]

Not good visuals, guys. If you want to rebuild confidence in the police, don't do stuff like this.

Two Memphis Police Officers Suspended Over Racist Snapchat | Mic

But, good on the Memphis PD for addressing it.

Found this article while searching for details to the story: The Memphis Massacre of 1866 and Black Voter Suppression in the American South - The Atlantic . It's a sobering story, but a good read. This is part of "heritage" too, and an example of why the Federal gov't is needed to check states' rights. (The details could also give a pretty good argument for the need of an armed populace though.)

[Ned Doolittle]

How do you block/ignore particular posters? I've been meaning to block JoninGA for like the longest time now, years, but I click on all these buttons and nothing says "block". Thanks.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Ned Doolittle

How do you block/ignore particular posters? I've been meaning to block JoninGA for like the longest time now, years, but I click on all these buttons and nothing says "block". Thanks.

I've been trying to ignore myself for years now but to no avail.

[Radii]

Click on person's name to go into their profile. Click "Add to your ignore list", then on the next page click "save list"

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Not good visuals, guys. If you want to rebuild confidence in the police, don't do stuff like this.

Two Memphis Police Officers Suspended Over Racist Snapchat | Mic

But, good on the Memphis PD for addressing it.

Found this article while searching for details to the story: The Memphis Massacre of 1866 and Black Voter Suppression in the American South - The Atlantic . It's a sobering story, but a good read. This is part of "heritage" too, and an example of why the Federal gov't is needed to check states' rights. (The details could also give a pretty good argument for the need of an armed populace though.)

Lesser news...but relevant to making people scared of young black males.

Two men arrested in fatal Lakeland home invasion | TBO.com

This happened not to far from a friend of mine who lives alone. so yeah, we can cherry pick bad cops and bad young black males all day long. If we want too. We probably won't get much story telling other than a police blotter though.

Because according to the media, all lives matter differently based on who did the killing and the journalistic activism is "let's go after the coppers". As is yours, I suspect.

[Edward64]

Another perspective for us to ponder on.

Rudy Giuliani Says Black Parents Need To Teach Their Children To Respect Police

Former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani thinks black Americans need to worry less about police violence and more about teaching their children to respect police and fear other black people.

In light of the killings of five police officers in Dallas last week, Giuliani went off on the Black Lives Matter movement, in an interview on CBS’ “Face the Nation” on Sunday. He called the slogan “inherently racist” and “anti-American,” while neglecting statistics that show black people are disproportionately targeted by police.

“There’s too much violence in the black community,” he said. “[i]f you want to deal with this on the black side, you’ve got to teach your children to be respectful to the police and you’ve got to teach your children that the real danger to them is not the police; the real danger to them, 99 out of 100 times, 9,900 out of 1,000 times, are other black kids who are gonna kill them. That’s the way they’re gonna die.”

While the majority of people of any race shot to death in the U.S. are killed by other civilians, not police officers, Giuliani’s statement ignores that black men are disproportionately affected by police shootings. An ongoing Washington Post tally found that 40 percent of the unarmed men shot and killed by police last year were black, despite black men accounting for only 6 percent of the population.

But Giuliani didn’t stop there.

“If I were a black father and I was concerned about the safety of my child ― really concerned about it and not in a politically activist sense ― I would say be very respectful to police, most of them are good, some can be very bad and just be very careful. I’d also say be very careful of those kids in the neighborhood, don’t get involved with them, because son, there’s a 99 percent chance they’re going to kill you not the police.”

Things got heated when host John Dickerson tried to correct Giuliani’s claims that Black Lives Matter protesters encourage killing police officers.

“They sing rap songs about killing police officers and they talk about killing police officers and they yell it out at their rallies,” Giuliani said when Dickerson interjected.

[cuervo72]

I'm...I almost don't know what to say. You pull out a random news story to prove...what? Yes Dutch, young black males occasionally kill people. And this is wrong, right? Right! I think everyone will agree with this.

Not everyone will agree that sometimes, cops kill people and sometimes, those cops are in the wrong.

During an interview, Hudson admitted he and Carter committed the Chase Road home invasion and shooting, deputies said.

Carter and Hudson were taken to the Polk County Jail.

Carter and Hudson were each charged with first-degree murder, seven counts of attempted murder, armed burglary of an occupied dwelling, and possession of firearm by convicted felon.

These guys killed someone, and they were investigated and charged with first-degree murder. Nobody questioned the backgrounds of the victims. Nobody called them thugs or delved into their potential criminal backgrounds. It was acknowledged that the men did something wrong, and they were charged accordingly. The victims were given some semblance of "justice."

How many killed by cops get this?

And, don't we hold cops to a higher standard? We grant them power and authority. We do this with the expectation that they will use it fairly. There should be a process for making sure that they are doing this. Taking them for their word is not enough. Who else do we blindly take at their word the fact that they acted lawfully?

Re: all lives matter. I doubt this will make a whit of difference, but I liked this rundown of it: It’s not “black lives matter and other lives don’t,” it’s “all lives matter, but you’re not acting like black lives matter."

And don't tell me there aren't marches in Chicago protesting gun violence - there are.