The Trump Presidency – 2016

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

I still see deficits decreasing under Democratic presidents and increasing under Republican ones. Given that I think the blame should be thrown at mostly one party.

Yes, I agree and conceded this in the above post. It would be nice to see this represented as a % of GDP, I think it is a more fair comparison vs raw $.

So if you add up all the GOP and Dem presidents, did the GOP presidents increase the accumulated deficit the most? Yes. Did the Dem presidents also increase the accumulated deficit significantly? Yes.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Yes, I agree and conceded this in the above post. It would be nice to see this represented as a % of GDP, I think it is a more fair comparison vs raw $.

https://www.thebalance.com/us-deficit-by-year-3306306

It doesn't really change the discussion

ETA: By which I mean the percentages go up under GOP presidents and down during Democratic presidents.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

https://www.thebalance.com/us-deficit-by-year-3306306

It doesn't really change the discussion

Let me make sure I understand you.

You think rate of change in the annual deficit is a better measure than total deficits for a President?

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Let me make sure I understand you.

You think rate of change in the annual deficit is a better measure than total deficits for a President?

Yup, it shows direction. If the president left the yearly deficit lower than when he entered office I consider that positive change and vice versa.

A president can't control where he starts from which is why I don't like the total deficits metric.

[JPhillips]

And external factors matter. The Great Recession demanded increased federal spending.

In that sense, Trump has been the worst, by far. He's run up trillion dollar plus deficits with a good economy for all four years.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

And external factors matter. The Great Recession demanded increased federal spending.

In that sense, Trump has been the worst, by far. He's run up trillion dollar plus deficits with a good economy for all four years.

Exactly! He has pretty much done exactly the opposite of what you are supposed to do when the economy is good. It's nothing short of us getting fleeced by him and the rich.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Edward64

And always wanting to weigh both sides

You can fuck right off to Fuckyourselfville with that bullshit.

Originally Posted by Edward64

Your assumption that a threat of impeachment would have somewhat constrained Trump is questionable.

Once acquitted, what incentive for good behavior does he have? He now demonstrably has a Senate with neither the balls nor the spine to tell him no.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Sen Ernst said today that if Biden wins they will immediately start impeachment hearings.

So much for will of the voters, too partisan, blah blah blah.

In '2016 they were yammering about having enough material for years of hearings to slam Clinton with and ohbytheway we're gonna impeach her for Benghazi.

Nothing new.

[ISiddiqui]

If Biden wins, the House is likely going to stay Democratic... so... no, they won't.

[Atocep]

Very McConnell-esque

Virginia GOP delegate tries to kill own bill to remove Democratic segregationist statue | TheHill

Del. Wendell Walker (R) introduced a bill to remove the tribute to former governor and U.S. senator in Richmond, after a Democratic push to remove Confederate statues in the state, reported The News & Advance, a Lynchburg, Va., newspaper.

“The reason I put that in was more of a political reason,” Walker said of the reasoning behind wanting to kill the proposal, according to the newspaper.

Walker offered his bill in response to Democratic efforts to remove Confederate statues across the state, including the statue of Gen. Robert E. Lee in the U.S. Capitol building. These controversial efforts have sparked protests, including in Charlottesville in 2017 after the town decided to take down its statue of Lee.

After Democratic delegates expressed their support for Walker's bill, he requested the bill no longer be considered, as he did not want the statue to actually be taken down.

“I think history is very important, whether it’s good, bad or ugly,” Walker said, according to the paper. “I was not willing to allow the governor to have the opportunity to remove statues.”

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

You can fuck right off to Fuckyourselfville with that bullshit.

Guess not interested in fair & balanced?

Once acquitted, what incentive for good behavior does he have? He now demonstrably has a Senate with neither the balls nor the spine to tell him no.

I thought I answered it.

Your assumption that a threat of impeachment would have somewhat constrained Trump is questionable. Arguably, for the House to not impeach Trump would have emboldened him even more. I think the threat of a 2-time impeachment club is just as persuasive.

I supported the impeachment process because it was the right thing to do. It also puts our politicians on record which is good.

Its all out there now (calling on Bolton as additional witness for Ukraine is really pointless) and if Trump gets re-elected even with this impeachment, the Dems/Libs will need to take a good hard look in the mirror and assess whether they really are in tuned with the priorities and sentiments of the country as a whole (e.g. not just liberal enclaves in the NE and West).

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Yup, it shows direction. If the president left the yearly deficit lower than when he entered office I consider that positive change and vice versa.

A president can't control where he starts from which is why I don't like the total deficits metric.

Per the Maddow chart, the first year of a Presidency is multi-colored. Take out all first year deficits because it came from the previous year/administration. So for Obama, remove 2009 from the discussion.

In 2010, 2011 & 2012, the deficit is > $1T each year. Far greater than any other Presidents before him in raw $ (not sure where to get $ adjusted for inflation but that would be a better measure). In 2013 it drops to $650B.

That would be a dramatic drop but I don't think the "rate of decrease" is as relevant because 2010-2012 were such dramatically bad years. The damage was front loaded and already done. I don't care as much the decrease was 40-50% from 2012 to 2013 when we were already $3-4T up in 2010-2012.

Hence, my position that the total accumulated deficit is more important than rate of increase/decrease.

Let's agree to disagree.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

You can fuck right off to Fuckyourselfville with that bullshit.

Let's take a break, Sack.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

And external factors matter. The Great Recession demanded increased federal spending.

In that sense, Trump has been the worst, by far. He's run up trillion dollar plus deficits with a good economy for all four years.

This is fair. Much of Obama's deficits were because of the GR. Just like we can say much of GWB deficits were because of 9/11 wars.

Look at Obama's 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016. Those deficits were just as great as GWB who had a war to deal with.

For Trump, according to Maddow's chart, its not all 3 years but your point is taken. He is headed in the wrong direction in a record way for sure.

One caveat for future conversations -- I think we have to look at raw deficit/debt $ but it needs to be complemented by "as a % of GDP" and normalized for today's $. The wiki article had % of GDP but only went through Obama's first term and (obviously) nothing on Trump.

[stevew]

Why do you guys keep engaging the Russian bot troll

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Edward64

This is fair. Much of Obama's deficits were because of the GR. Just like we can say much of GWB deficits were because of 9/11 wars.

Look at Obama's 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016. Those deficits were just as great as GWB who had a war to deal with.

For Trump, according to Maddow's chart, its not all 3 years but your point is taken. He is headed in the wrong direction in a record way for sure.

One caveat for future conversations -- I think we have to look at raw deficit/debt $ but it needs to be complemented by "as a % of GDP" and normalized for today's $. The wiki article had % of GDP but only went through Obama's first term and (obviously) nothing on Trump.

Define "9/11 wars"

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by stevew

Why do you guys keep engaging the Russian bot troll

I was made in Singapore thank you very much!

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

This is fair. Much of Obama's deficits were because of the GR. Just like we can say much of GWB deficits were because of 9/11 wars.

No, much of the deficit under GWB was from his tax cuts for the rich.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

No, much of the deficit under GWB was from his tax cuts for the rich.

And Iraq War

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

And Iraq War

Yes the wars were considerable costs, but it doesn't touch what we lost from the tax cuts. For that, Bush deserves some blame for the deficit under Obama. Although Obama later extended portions of it so he gets some blame too.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Define "9/11 wars"

It seems self evident to me -- Afghanistan and Iraq.

Did I miss a nuance, why did you ask?

The other low intensity conflicts probably did not add much to the deficit.

[larrymcg421]

Using the Iraq War as a mitigating factor in Bush's management of the deficit is a really weird argument considering many of the arguments against the war centered around how much it would cost, especially because it would take much longer than the administration was touting. No shit the war was a major factor in the deficit increase. That's kinda the point.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

I was made in Singapore thank you very much!

There's plenty of troll bots on this forum.

Are you the Dem/Lib troll bot or the Independent troll bot or the GOP/Trumpers troll bot?

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Edward64

It seems self evident to me -- Afghanistan and Iraq.

Did I miss a nuance, why did you ask?

The other low intensity conflicts probably did not add much to the deficit.

I was just making sure you lumped the Iraq War (because Saddam caused 9/11) in the "9/11 wars" before I put words in your mouth

It was first time I've heard that phrase.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Edward64

There's plenty of troll bots on this forum.

Are you the Dem/Lib troll bot or the Independent troll bot or the GOP/Trumpers troll bot?

You'll have to ask my maker.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

I was just making sure you lumped the Iraq War (because Saddam caused 9/11) in the "9/11 wars" before I put words in your mouth

It was first time I've heard that phrase.

Okay, I understand. Yes, agree my wording could be better but I was thinking Afghanistan and Iraq part deaux.

[Atocep]

It's like watching a toddler that can't sit still. There seriously has to be something medically wrong with the man.

Trump is caught on camera waving his hands during national anthem - Business Insider

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by Edward64

There's plenty of troll bots on this forum.

Are you the Dem/Lib troll bot or the Independent troll bot or the GOP/Trumpers troll bot?

Have you ever seen Bladerunner?

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Atocep

It's like watching a toddler that can't sit still. There seriously has to be something medically wrong with the man.

Trump is caught on camera waving his hands during national anthem - Business Insider

That looks like a guy suffering from dementia.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Atocep

It's like watching a toddler that can't sit still. There seriously has to be something medically wrong with the man.

Trump is caught on camera waving his hands during national anthem - Business Insider

So kneeling and remaining silent is disrespectful, but talking, waving your arms, gesturing and being otherwise disruptive is perfectly respectful? Okay.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

So kneeling and remaining silent is disrespectful, but talking, waving your arms, gesturing and being otherwise disruptive is perfectly respectful? Okay.

Remember, he has Article II of the Constitution, which allows him to do what ever he wants

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by AlexB

Have you ever seen Bladerunner?

Yes but it's been a while. Why?

[kingfc22]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

So kneeling and remaining silent is disrespectful, but talking, waving your arms, gesturing and being otherwise disruptive is perfectly respectful? Okay.

The “I am rubber and you are glue” approach.

[Edward64]

I think Trump's odds of a second term just went up a some. Lot's of time left for something to happen but he's likely to go into November with a good/strong economy/market (e.g. too late for us to get into an official recession now but market could still crash).

https://news.gallup.com/poll/284156/...onal-best.aspx

President Donald Trump's job approval rating has risen to 49%, his highest in Gallup polling since he took office in 2017.
:
:
Trump's approval rating has risen because of higher ratings among both Republicans and independents. His 94% approval rating among Republicans is up six percentage points from early January and is three points higher than his previous best among his fellow partisans. The 42% approval rating among independents is up five points, and ties three other polls as his best among that group. Democratic approval is 7%, down slightly from 10%

And the rationale ...

The Jan. 16-29 poll was conducted in the midst of the Senate impeachment trial that will likely result in the president's acquittal. The poll finds 52% of Americans in favor of acquitting Trump and 46% in favor of convicting and removing him from office.

In addition to possibly reflecting sentiment regarding his impeachment, Trump's increased approval rating may also result from other issues, including:

The recent military action in Iran. More Americans in the new poll approve (53%) than disapprove (45%) of the U.S. military action that resulted in the death of a leading Iranian military general. Iran retaliated but, despite fears of escalation, no further military action has been taken by either side.

Foreign trade. During the poll's field period, Trump also signed the United States-Mexico-Canada trade deal to replace the North American Free Trade Agreement.

The economy. Americans' confidence in the economy is higher than at any point in the past two decades. Similarly, national satisfaction is the highest in nearly 15 years.

[PilotMan]

Sure, he's got as good a chance as a sitting president, who has gotten the green light to manipulate the system for his benefit, as any other previous president has.

[PilotMan]

Sure, he's got as good a chance as a sitting president, with special needs, as any other previous president has.

[PilotMan]

Sure, he's got as good a chance as a sitting president, who is defended by rape, murder, and child porn lawyers, as any other previous president has.

[JPhillips]

He's an incumbent with a good economy, he should be the favorite.

Also, don't put too much stock in one poll.

[Atocep]

I'm sure I missed this at some point, but we're pro landmine now?

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I'm sure I missed this at some point, but we're pro landmine now?

Yes. And if by 'we', you mean trump and his ilk...yes.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I'm sure I missed this at some point, but we're pro landmine now?

Bone Spurs for all! Real ones this time too!

[Edward64]

That breathing again.

And Nancy busy doing work in the background. It would be hilarious if she took out her iPhone and started texting!

[Edward64]

Forgot about the clapping after every sentence.

GOP clapping and cheers seem almost ... giddy?

MSM will analyze the inaccuracies and provide more context but Trump is giving a pretty good speech right now.

[Coffee Warlord]

The Pelosi paper rip becomes a massive meme within 24 hours.

[kingfc22]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Forgot about the clapping after every sentence.

GOP clapping and cheers seem almost ... giddy?

MSM will analyze the inaccuracies and provide more context but Trump is giving a pretty good speech right now.

A pretty good speech if you’re living in an alternative universe where the only thing that matters is what The Great Leader tells us should matter. Facts be damned.

[Edward64]

Didn't watch all of it so catching up some.

Inviting Juan Guaido was a good move. I hope this means we will be doing more in Venezuela.

Pelosi supposedly tearing up the SOTU speech at the end is fun. Both are trying to show each other up and it's entertaining.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Inviting Juan Guaido was a good move. I hope this means we will be doing more in Venezuela.

Yes! Let’s meddle some more, because it’s been so successful in the past! As if Chavez/Maduro wasn’t a direct result of our propping up other corrupt governments....

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by lungs

Yes! Let’s meddle some more, because it’s been so successful in the past! As if Chavez/Maduro wasn’t a direct result of our propping up other corrupt governments....

So has there been any US support of an existing foreign government or opposition leader that you would support?

Trying to understand what would be "good/justifiable" vs "bad"

[lungs]

Originally Posted by Edward64

So has there been any US support of an existing foreign government or opposition leader that you would support?

I’m not sure I get the question.

I am opposed to meddling in the internal politics of other countries because quite frankly, we do not have a very good history in that regard and it has a direct correlation to troubled spots we deal with today.

We supported the overthrow of Mossadegh in Iran in 1953, which gave us the Shah. Which in turn gave us the Revolution in 1979 and our current enmity with Iran.

Our support of corrupt Cuban military governments gave us Castro. And the pattern repeats over and over in Latin America.

Supporting the overthrow of Ghadaffi in Libya and Assad in Syria has done nothing but give more power to Islamists.

We needed a do over in Egypt after we realized we didn’t really like the results of their free elections.

Point being, I can’t think of any meddling we have been a part of in other country’s internal politics that has been a long term positive for us.

And if we are going to bitch about Russia meddling with our elections, we really ought to have a leg to stand on. And we don’t. Not even close.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by lungs

And if we are going to bitch about Russia meddling with our elections, we really ought to have a leg to stand on. And we don’t. Not even close.

Which is why you haven't heard me bitch about that stuff.

Every nation acts in their own best interest, not particularly more or less than we do historically.