Football Manager 2012 Anticipation thread......

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I'm already starting to get fired up for the upcoming version of Football Manager. As some may remember, I'm an every other year purchaser of the game. I've put in 35 years of game time into the 2010 version. I'll probably put in a few more years before this fall's release.

So I get to pick up all the 2011 enhancements as well as the new 2012 features this year. I saw a recent wish-list article for the upcoming version and was curious what the 2011 owners would add to this list.

Football Manager 2012 New Features | FM Scout

[DaddyTorgo]

Can't wait. Excited to see what new features there will be. I think you'll really enjoy the 2011 features MBBF.

[DaddyTorgo]

Some stupid and silly ideas in that list, but also some halfway decent ones IMO.

[Big Fo]

It's time to bring back wibble-wobble imo.

Or at least let me have a little more freedom with picking positions in the tactics screen and not just five columns across five rows (excluding the sweeper and keeper).

edit: after reading the list, I agree with the person who said player aging should vary a bit more. Guys really fall off in their early 30s on FM and this is not always the case IRL.

[Groundhog]

I think I'm going to approach FM the same way I do Madden, and pick it up every couple of years. I think 12 months is far too short a time frame to sink my teeth into a game like this. By the time I feel like I'm getting an OK grasp on it and progressing with my chosen save game, boom, the new version is out.

[BYU 14]

Skipped it last year for the first time since 2001, really looking forward to this years version.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

Skipped it last year for the first time since 2001, really looking forward to this years version.

2011 is on sale for $14.99 on Amazon if you need to whet your appetite, though.

[britrock88]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

2011 is on sale for $14.99 on Amazon if you need to whet your appetite, though.

Don't tell me this.

[Bobble]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

I think I'm going to approach FM the same way I do Madden, and pick it up every couple of years. I think 12 months is far too short a time frame to sink my teeth into a game like this. By the time I feel like I'm getting an OK grasp on it and progressing with my chosen save game, boom, the new version is out.

I'm surprised that being able to continue a saved game from previous version isn't on that list.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

I think I'm going to approach FM the same way I do Madden, and pick it up every couple of years. I think 12 months is far too short a time frame to sink my teeth into a game like this. By the time I feel like I'm getting an OK grasp on it and progressing with my chosen save game, boom, the new version is out.

That's been my plan the last couple of years but I couldn't stick to it Two years ago they added tactics being built using football language instead of having to try to translate roles etc into slider settings and also sideline shouts. Then last year more good changes with team focus and being able to build more views into the game without having to make xml files and improved sideline shouts. These additions "made" me buy the game I'm a slow player though so this means I don't get very far in a career when a new version comes out.

With this years version I think I am happy enough that I'll finally be able to hold out and actually skip buying FM 2012. Time will tell

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by Bobble

I'm surprised that being able to continue a saved game from previous version isn't on that list.

God, you ain't kidding. Though it's been said many times that is pretty much Not Happening.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Bobble

I'm surprised that being able to continue a saved game from previous version isn't on that list.

They claim its to hard to do with all of the changes they make version to version. Mention it on the FM boards and most replies will not support it and are happy with the way it is.

I've always wondered since the same 20 attributes are used in the database and their database is just updated year to year why they couldn't make it so you could at least import your current game rosters into the new version even if they had to leave the stats and records behind? Maybe allow you to bring in your personal history as a manager?

Then again I'm no coder and even if that were done many would make the complaint "if you can do that why can't you bring along the history?".

FWIW I totally would love it if it could be done.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

2011 is on sale for $14.99 on Amazon if you need to whet your appetite, though.

Originally Posted by britrock88

Don't tell me this.

Still available!

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Sweed

They claim its to hard to do with all of the changes they make version to version.

The problem is down to the difference between most US sports and the various soccer leagues around the world.

Each year about 10% of soccer leagues competitions will under go structural changes of some description - adding an extra team to a competition, changing the number of teams in a cup competition etc.

With the amount of leagues in FM it makes 'forward compatibility' between versions next to impossible to implement unfortunately without restricting people to the 'old competition structure' in their game (and updating to the current competitions / players etc. is a big part of the update for most users).

If you doubt this consider when the Champions League changed from being a pure knockout competition to a competition involving a league - how would you handle that alteration in a game in progress; how would the game ascertain which additional teams to draw into the competition and why etc. ...

Then add to this the complexity of trying to 'guess' how players in an existing game should drop into new features (say for instance we've remodelled the training totally in a version or whatever) and you'll probably see why its not considered feasible at present.

I've always wondered since the same 20 attributes are used in the database and their database is just updated year to year why they couldn't make it so you could at least import your current game rosters into the new version even if they had to leave the stats and records behind? Maybe allow you to bring in your personal history as a manager?

Then again I'm no coder and even if that were done many would make the complaint "if you can do that why can't you bring along the history?".

If you mean use a database from different years - there are different legal issues to do with licencing in this area, I'd love to allow people to play FM and start in a different 'year' to the current one .... but its not practical or possible at present.

(its for this reason that FMHi 2010 isn't on sale in the appStore - the licence for that seasons data expired)

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

The problem is down to the difference between most US sports and the various soccer leagues around the world.

Each year about 10% of soccer leagues competitions will under go structural changes of some description - adding an extra team to a competition, changing the number of teams in a cup competition etc.

With the amount of leagues in FM it makes 'forward compatibility' between versions next to impossible to implement unfortunately without restricting people to the 'old competition structure' in their game (and updating to the current competitions / players etc. is a big part of the update for most users).

If you doubt this consider when the Champions League changed from being a pure knockout competition to a competition involving a league - how would you handle that alteration in a game in progress; how would the game ascertain which additional teams to draw into the competition and why etc. ...

Then add to this the complexity of trying to 'guess' how players in an existing game should drop into new features (say for instance we've remodelled the training totally in a version or whatever) and you'll probably see why its not considered feasible at present.

If you mean use a database from different years - there are different legal issues to do with licencing in this area, I'd love to allow people to play FM and start in a different 'year' to the current one .... but its not practical or possible at present.

(its for this reason that FMHi 2010 isn't on sale in the appStore - the licence for that seasons data expired)

Thanks for the response Marc. Hope my "They claim" didn't come across as sarcastic, certainly wasn't intended that way. Just pointing out, since I've asked in the past, that I was told it was too difficult due to all of the changes from version to version.

What I meant by importing game rosters is this...

I play FM11 and get to 2015. I then buy FM12 and can move my rosters, as they exist in the year 2015 to FM12. IE new-gens, players that haven't retired, and with all transfers that were made while playing the save in FM11. Never considered a licensing fee would be involved in moving one data base from version to version. Thanks for pointing that out.

I also see your point on league rules and structures that I hadn't considered before if one were trying to import a save with stats, standings, and leagues in tact. With all different leagues starting at different times over the whole world its not like one could say "well you just have to make sure you do the import in July". Sure that might work for the Premiere League but what about other leagues that are playing at that time? Pretty much impossible and again, something I hadn't considered.

I have a much better understanding now of the challenges FM would face in trying to make an import function.

Thanks again for commenting.

[Bobble]

Thanks, Marc. I appreciate the response.

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

With the amount of leagues in FM it makes 'forward compatibility' between versions next to impossible to implement unfortunately without restricting people to the 'old competition structure' in their game

I could accept that restriction.

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

(and updating to the current competitions / players etc. is a big part of the update for most users).

I'm sure you know your customer base than some random dude on a non-FM forum. But, do you know what percentage DON'T care to have the latest competitions/players? I get the impression that a fair number of people get the new version to use the new features and actually lament having to start over. That many of us would rather use the new features with our "old" world game -- at least until our whiny, overpriced striker scores a frickin' goal for a change. Would it be worth it for that part for the fan base? I wouldn't be surprised if many of the long-term game users (like the LLM guys) would be all for it. Has there been a poll I missed?

I guess what I'm getting at is that with what seems like a minimum of coding (old competition structure, added features use random numbers or by player's CA or PA), you could add a (I would think) rather large NEW!! feature to the game.

I'm looking at the OOTP example. Transferring your old OOTP league to a new version seems to cause less problems than one would think even when features are added. You're told up front that, say, "We're adding a leadership stat for every player and it's going to be random influenced slightly by potential. Don't expect your favorite player to be the team leader. If you want it to be "right", start a new league." I think it's a question of managing expectations, not a technical issue.

[bhlloy]

I think you'd very quickly find yourself playing an inferior game to everyone else, and then SI would get flamed the hell out of for that as well "why couldn't they make feature import properly, there's no point in even continuing my save game. I was sold on the fact that I could import my save game blah blah blah...."

You bring up OOTP but in the years where OOTP had major feature changes, I don't remember the save game import feature working very smoothly at all. And OOTP is an infinitely less complex game than FM. I can't even begin to imagine the technical challenges of getting this done. Not saying it's not very desirable or I wouldn't love to see it....

[Bobble]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

I think you'd very quickly find yourself playing an inferior game to everyone else....

How? I don't get what you mean here. You're still using all the same new features. You'd still be using the new sideline shouts, FaceGen, 3D pitch, etc. to pick a few features from recent versions.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Bobble

I'm sure you know your customer base than some random dude on a non-FM forum. But, do you know what percentage DON'T care to have the latest competitions/players?

Some customer surveys* most people purchase each year and one of the big driving factors was getting the new data/competition structures into the game. It was also visible that in years when there was a big change (ie. introduction of the bosman ruling) there were more purchasers - I presume because people wanted to see how the change might affect their teams irl.

*Admittedly from a few years back now - I concentrate on handheld stuff and leave FM PC stuff to others these days)

I get the impression that a fair number of people get the new version to use the new features and actually lament having to start over.

A fair few of the 'hardcore' do lament having to start over - however its important to note that a lot of the more casual FM users actually don't play long term games, stopping after a maximum of 7-8 seasons or so when the 'real players' start retiring ... strange but true.

Would it be worth it for that part for the fan base? I wouldn't be surprised if many of the long-term game users (like the LLM guys) would be all for it.

I'm sure a lot of long-term game users would love the option but it'd be a HUGE undertaking - its something I've mulled over a lot with FMH/FMHi and even for that game its something which isn't wholly viable really.

Basically it 'could' be kludged to some extent but there would undoubtably be race conditions we'd miss leading to games which were unstable or simply imbalanced - and thats something I don't think is acceptable I'm afraid.

Has there been a poll I missed?

We have in the past sporadically run surveys emailed to people registered - not sure when the last one was done tbh.

(we tend to do email surveys for this sort of thing to try and get more of the 'quiet' people to respond than you might get on a forum)

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by Bobble

How? I don't get what you mean here. You're still using all the same new features. You'd still be using the new sideline shouts, FaceGen, 3D pitch, etc. to pick a few features from recent versions.

True. But let's say SI completely rewrites the training module or the player rating or personality system. You say make it random, now this wunderkid you have lovingly trained up since he was 15 and in your youth team could completely suck. Make it based on PA or CA and now good players are even better and it might unbalance the game.

OOTP has what - 7 or 8 attributes that actually influence the game and then a bunch more personality attributes that you can mostly turn off? FM has hundreds for each player and who knows what they are adding/removing/tweaking behind the scenes each year. I just don't think it works as well in practice as you think it does.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I guess I've never really had an issue with importing due to my every 2nd year habit. By about 18-20 months (actual time) into the game, I feel like I have played through most of what I was looking to achieve. 30-35 years of game time is about my limit. I'm ready to start over if I skip every other release.

[Bobble]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

True. But let's say SI completely rewrites the training module or the player rating or personality system. You say make it random, now this wunderkid you have lovingly trained up since he was 15 and in your youth team could completely suck. Make it based on PA or CA and now good players are even better and it might unbalance the game.

I still don't get why my wunderkid would suck. He's trained from now on by the new module, not untrained at all. Or, he's using the same ratings he had in the last version. He's just as pacey, as strong, as aggressive as before. Or, he has the same few personality traits as before. If they're adding new ones, presumably the new ones would be programmed to be minimally aligned (if they add a "Flips the crowd the bird" stat, presumably they'd initially make it equal to Sportsmanship or whatever). Even if some of the personality stuff is a little wonky on transfer, then that's the price I'd be willing to pay.

I guess I don't see them adding huge chunks of attributes to the players. Players are described very similarly to back when I joined the throng with CM3.

Originally Posted by bhlloy

OOTP has what - 7 or 8 attributes that actually influence the game and then a bunch more personality attributes that you can mostly turn off? FM has hundreds for each player and who knows what they are adding/removing/tweaking behind the scenes each year. I just don't think it works as well in practice as you think it does.

Hundreds that have stayed the same for many versions. I'm sure the devil is in the details as it always is but most of the changes over the years have been to the match engine or the interface, not to the format of the player database (at least as far as I can tell).

I mean, you could probably take a game of FM2005 and manually put in your players in the current version without having to make up very much. Preferred moves? None. Favored teams and staff? None. Is that not correct?

[Bobble]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Some customer surveys* most people purchase each year and one of the big driving factors was getting the new data/competition structures into the game. It was also visible that in years when there was a big change (ie. introduction of the bosman ruling) there were more purchasers - I presume because people wanted to see how the change might affect their teams irl.

*Admittedly from a few years back now - I concentrate on handheld stuff and leave FM PC stuff to others these days)


A fair few of the 'hardcore' do lament having to start over - however its important to note that a lot of the more casual FM users actually don't play long term games, stopping after a maximum of 7-8 seasons or so when the 'real players' start retiring ... strange but true.


I'm sure a lot of long-term game users would love the option but it'd be a HUGE undertaking - its something I've mulled over a lot with FMH/FMHi and even for that game its something which isn't wholly viable really.

Basically it 'could' be kludged to some extent but there would undoubtably be race conditions we'd miss leading to games which were unstable or simply imbalanced - and thats something I don't think is acceptable I'm afraid.


We have in the past sporadically run surveys emailed to people registered - not sure when the last one was done tbh.

(we tend to do email surveys for this sort of thing to try and get more of the 'quiet' people to respond than you might get on a forum)

Thanks for the followup. I'm surprised (unsurprisingly ) that more people wouldn't jump at the feature. I mean, it took all of 11 minutes for two people to chime in with me here.

I guess if it was as relatively simple or as popular as I think, someone would have created an third-party app to convert your FM2010 save to FM2011.

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

OOTP has what - 7 or 8 attributes that actually influence the game and then a bunch more personality attributes that you can mostly turn off? FM has hundreds for each player and who knows what they are adding/removing/tweaking behind the scenes each year. I just don't think it works as well in practice as you think it does.

I'd wager that OOTP has 10 times more attributes than FM (there are thousands for each player - I know because I decoded the data files). Regardless of how much these rastings influence the game, Markus still needs to handle them somehow when building a player import module and league upgrade module, and yet he still does. You can argue about the quality but at least he provided the capability on both fronts.

Ability to import to newer versions is absolutely my most wanted feature, and something I've complained about in the past.

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...5&postcount=16
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...5&postcount=63

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Bobble

I guess if it was as relatively simple or as popular as I think, someone would have created an third-party app to convert your FM2010 save to FM2011.

I'm a little surprised that there hasn't been something like that, though I don't know how open the FM group is with their data setup.

[Bobble]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I'm a little surprised that there hasn't been something like that, though I don't know how open the FM group is with their data setup.

There's a modding forum on their boards (although maybe it's called something else). They've got "mods" that open the leagues to playing lower levels. FM Scout digests your saved game and reveals all the player info. I think there are even a few officially released coding snippets but maybe that was just XML stuff for skinning.

I think that there are people outside the company that COULD do it, meaning they know enough about the databases, but the question is whether they are motivated enough to take on this project.

I was thinking that to be most useful, a saved game upgrader would have to be ready to go about when the new version came out BUT IIRC, the guy who does FM Scout doesn't get any advanced knowledge. He just takes the game when it first comes out and builds his app then.