Werewolf LXX Pleasure Cruise - (GAME OVER)

[claphamsa]

it was annoying!~

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by claphamsa

hes an idiot?

your an idiot for not making it clear you weren't on the boat on day 5 until two hours before the deadline

[The Jackal]

and since i was given minimal information about the bomb, when i finally decided to use it, i was hoping it'd have a countdown timer, like a few minutes or a few hours and i could put it outside someone's bunk or something along those lines, to hopefully take out a wolf or at least someone who a lot of the pressure was on to make things clearer for the villagers.. plus if the underground had approached me i was fully intending to use it

[RendeR]

SIXTY SIX FUCKING PAGES?

holy hell guys =)

Sorry, but I'm not reading that much anytime soon

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I think this is one of those games that Barkeep can later point at for his huge speech on why information sharing is important in games (even though Ironically enough he chose to not do so in this game at a pretty crucial time too!)

I'm reading through and am just on this post and let me say: with the information out there I played my role right. If I reveal that I'm a lover, I get killed by the underground anyway, since there's no real bodyguard, something I had guessed at. Same result. I had pretty much decided that cronin was a villager as well by the day I got lynched, but I KNEW I was, so what else was I to do but push on him? He was my only choice of staying alive.

More comments forthcoming after I've caught up.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

I'm reading through and am just on this post and let me say: with the information out there I played my role right. If I reveal that I'm a lover, I get killed by the underground anyway, since there's no real bodyguard, something I had guessed at. Same result. I had pretty much decided that cronin was a villager as well by the day I got lynched, but I KNEW I was, so what else was I to do but push on him? He was my only choice of staying alive.

More comments forthcoming after I've caught up.

I think the point where I would come out with the information was when it looked like I was going to get lynched, but with enough time to move votes. In that case, you may be right that you get night killed anyways, but I think its worth it to make the Underground do that move. I don't have any issue with the not revealing it before that point though. I just am of the belief if you have a role and are getting lynched, put your cards on the table before you go down.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Lathum

OK,

I am getting mildly irritated.

Maybe I am not getting something.

I know you guys will be honest with me.

Was I attacking people?

I thought you were constantly under attack, actually. And strangely enough, I, a wolf for most of the game, was probably your most vocal supporter. Of course, I wasn't able to post around the deadline, so not sure what good that would have done ya.

[Barkeep49]

Ok I'm caught up. First I'll say that I didn't play as terribly as I think is popularly perceived. I really wanted it to stop being cronin vs me and tried, hard, to go in a different direction on the day I was lynched. I only reverted back to cronin when it became clear that it was me or him. As I posted in 3255, if I reveal that I'm a lover, I'm dead anyway since there was no real bodyguard in this game.

And that goes to the heart of the problem with this game. As several others have pointed out, Alan is just wrong when he says that it was stacked in favor of the villagers. Alan expected the villagers to act in a certain way and when they didn't act in that way they were screwed. It was just bad game design. And it wasn't due to bad villager play (there was some of that, though no more than most games, I feel) that they didn't act in the desired way. There were just too many unknowns and NEVER any incentive to act otherwise. The biggest unknown was the potentially unlimited and unknown method of conversion. No COT could ever be formed, no matter what fortune tellers had been visited or necklaces passed around, since those people could have been converted. Hell Purdue suspect at one point that I was turned bad and I was his friggin lover.

In Saldana's games the villagers have made mistakes and been unlucky. This was a whole different ball of wax since the few advantages the villagers have over wolves were taken away. It might not have been random, but that didn't mean the players were in control, since they had no way to act intellegently.

[Lathum]

I have now found a new sig.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Alan T

The interesting thing is if Lathum hadn't gotten so much heat after Swaggs got lynched.. it could have led to Chief Rum getting lynched as a member of the Underground.. But since Lathum didn't have much trust any longer by many people, it sidetracked that entire possibility.

The ironic part was that the whole rope cutting thing was either a poorly worded PM on my part or a misunderstanding on his part. I tried to make it very clear in the PM that Lathum left the boat to check the ropes and the rest of the outside of the boat.. ie: THey likely were cut by someone not on the boat.. It would have been funny to me if that ended up getting Chief Rum lynched when he lied about being on the boat in the first place (when he really was somewhere else completely different)

Heh...what's really funny is that I was in town that day on my first mission for the Underground, as a henchman who didn't know anyone in the Underground yet. I kidnapped the fortune teller at their request and replaced him (her?) in case anyone came to visit (hey, Alan, what would have happened if anyone showed up?) for that day. And the ONLY reason I didn't just say I went into town was because I couldn't quickly find a Town post from one of the other players, so I could see what options they got (since I was on mission, I didn't get the same options). It was a two-job day and the thread went nuts with posts, so I didn't have time to search for a Town post.

When I said I failed to go snorkeling and simply returned to the boat without a second choice, I said that as a calculated risk. I knew it would seem suspicious, since Lathum's ropes thing was already being discussed, and Swaggs and Lathum were going at it over being on the boat. So when I said I was on the boat, too, I figured I would be hiding in the open a bit, as most wouldn't figure a wolf would put himself in the fire with Lathum and Swaggs going at it unless it was true (and I guess that worked).

I killed hoopsguy at the beach, dragged him under the water and drowned him, and people missed it because it was crowded. Strangely enough, that info was out there. hoops announced before he died that he was going to the beach, and I was asked where I was, and I also said I went to the beach.

That was Day Four or so, BTW, and no one--not a single person--asked me where I went on any given day after that. I was prepared to lie my ass off and never had to. I "assisted" in the engine room to delay the ship and also killed Qwikshot, bashing his head in with a lamp while he was taking a bath (yuck!).

[Raiders Army]

Great game. I had no idea what was going on. So, I was killed by Pass because I went to the same place as him?

[The Jackal]

I don't think you played poorly at all, BK.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

Great game. I had no idea what was going on. So, I was killed by Pass because I went to the same place as him?

No, he went to the same place as you to kill you, as per instructions. No matter where you went, he was coming for you.

[Sonic Youth]

Originally Posted by Alan T

You are right, that was a huge problem. It goes back to the old story of building trust.. I think the worst happened involving the bodyguard necklace.. all that had to be done was some sharing of information regarding it and then a very powerful item would have been used better.

I did share the information.

I still haven't received an answer to why it would have been different to out nfg's item compared to how he outed Oliegirl's?

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by Sonic Youth

I did share the information.

I still haven't received an answer to why it would have been different to out nfg's item compared to how he outed Oliegirl's?

Maybe because it was obvious to both parties (nfg/olie) what their item was, but in the case of the necklace, nfg never knew what it did?

[Sonic Youth]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

Maybe because it was obvious to both parties (nfg/olie) what their item was, but in the case of the necklace, nfg never knew what it did?

I couldn't send him a pm about it, only pass/drop the necklace to him. I can't answer for nfg, but I did leave a post saying what it did. Even naming the item. I don't know if he found it. My mistake would have been not following up about that info.

[nfg22]

I knew what it did. I just dont know how much it mattered in all the choas.

[Sonic Youth]

One thing that really hurt was that second time I couldn't post. It was especially hard as it was also a weekend.

[Sonic Youth]

Originally Posted by nfg22

I knew what it did. I just dont know how much it mattered in all the choas.

From what point did you know what it did is the one thing that I'd like to know.

Would you have been as annoyed with me if I'd revealed what it did like Oliegirl was with the bullet?

I agree though with the necklace not being much use in the game. Though if Anxiety had had it after his coming out with the Underground, it would have been very interesting.

[Narcizo]

Sonic, seriously, what the hell where you on in this game. You're the most mild-mannered guy who's least likely to take offence on Pantfish but you were like someone else in this game. I thought maybe you had to role play that you were an über-defensive, hostile so and so.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

No, he went to the same place as you to kill you, as per instructions. No matter where you went, he was coming for you.

Why me? I wasn't a threat.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

No, he went to the same place as you to kill you, as per instructions. No matter where you went, he was coming for you.

Makes sense. I think I didn't even bother submitting a night action then, since I figured you guys would find me.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Sonic Youth

I did share the information.

I still haven't received an answer to why it would have been different to out nfg's item compared to how he outed Oliegirl's?

I guess we can't know for sure, but personally, I think olie freaked out unnecessarily about her item being named. But what do I know, I thought it wouldn't be a big deal to hold on to those drugs.

[Sonic Youth]

Originally Posted by Narcizo

Sonic, seriously, what the hell where you on in this game. You're the most mild-mannered guy who's least likely to take offence on Pantfish but you were like someone else in this game. I thought maybe you had to role play that you were an über-defensive, hostile so and so.

I don't know. I felt like I was constantly on the attack from day one. Having two times where I wasn't able to participate didn't help either. It's also been most stressful at work this week and maybe that spilled over. I've been thinking about my approach in this game, and it didn't start well, coupled with missing that I was the only one who didn't say where I'd been meant that I was always then suspicious. Pity I didn't do what I said in one of my last post earlier in that posting period, as I think looking back, I really had a clue at that stage about looking to go down. I didn't help my cause much then.

I'll say sorry if I offended anyone or anything like this.

[Sonic Youth]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

I guess we can't know for sure, but personally, I think olie freaked out unnecessarily about her item being named. But what do I know, I thought it wouldn't be a big deal to hold on to those drugs.

The thing with the drugs I think was on the weekend, or the other time I couldn't participate either. Even though that directly lead to you getting voted off, it ultimately cast suspicion on passengers.

At the time when everyone wanted me to reveal what nfg had, I thought I had given clearly how to find it you wanted, but without actually saying at that point in the thread what it did. I figured if you wanted to know enough you'd go look. I don't know why I coped so much grief about that at that point though. Going through my name you'd have found it really easily too. I did get a bit miffed at that point I guess.

[PurdueBrad]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I have now found a new sig.

Hehe, nice!

Yeah, having never played with this dynamic before, I really felt it would be a great way to build up fake trust to have us be linked and yet opposite teams (kind of like what happened to the two bodyguards from the Battlestar Galactica game) and that if I found out he was a wolf, I was going to have to make the big one-for-one sacrifice of dying in order to get him out of the game OR keeping my mouth shut and knowing that no matter what, the wolves wouldn't night kill me but I would live through to the end. That would've made this a very tough dynamic but as BK pointed out, defeated the purpose of the role.

Alan, great game, TOUGH game. My favorite thing though was the ability to make choices and have them effect our roles, our knowledge, and our inventories. It made it a very fun game to be involved with.

[Alan T]

Thanks to those who provided constructive criticism. I try to make my games fun, fair and challenging. It is sometimes difficult with so many moving pieces to predict how things will go. I hope everyone at least had fun in the game and didn't view it as a waste of two weeks.

[Sonic Youth]

Waste? No. Fun? Yes.

Good game Alan.

[claphamsa]

I was disapointed in the ending... I was looking forward to Lathum and Heinze going at it. very anti Clitmatic!

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Sonic Youth

At the time when everyone wanted me to reveal what nfg had, I thought I had given clearly how to find it you wanted, but without actually saying at that point in the thread what it did. I figured if you wanted to know enough you'd go look.

I have no problem with how you played, as I mentioned earlier some of us are really aggressive but it never spills out of the game.

I think not quoting the post miffed some people, there were 3000 posts to look through, if you know where something is just quote it. I think that came across as very unhelpfull in some peoples eyes.

[mccollins]

Originally Posted by Sonic Youth

That's wrong. I did. No one picked up on it. I even said what you called it in an post too. If someone had passed me something, I'd be canvassing their posts to find out what it did. I don't think this was done.

Post 754:

I was sitting there, dead, wanting to scream 754 when the 3 hours of "I don't feel like searching through your posts" was going on.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I have no problem with how you played, as I mentioned earlier some of us are really aggressive but it never spills out of the game.

I think not quoting the post miffed some people, there were 3000 posts to look through, if you know where something is just quote it. I think that came across as very unhelpfull in some peoples eyes.

I think this happened after I was dead, but I'll agree with this. It's one thing to be subtle, but when that breaks down, if you really want people to see something that happened earlier, sometimes you just have to do the dirty work for them.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by nfg22

I knew what it did. I just dont know how much it mattered in all the choas.

I disagree. A block of a night kill could have blown this game wide open (especially if the wolf was identified as part of the block).

The problem for you guys was that we knew you had the necklace, we assumed it was for protection of some sort, so we didn't even try to night kill you.

Passing the necklace to someone else secretively would have given you guys a better chance at a block (but you could have accidently passed it to a wolf).

[mccollins]

Originally Posted by TazFTW

So did the rhyming all the time make me easier to trust or did it have no effect?

I think everyone gave you a lot of trust off this. Like it was a special villager role.

[Lathum]

I don't tink the rhyming gave you any special trust, but it made it hard to anlyize anything you said

[path12]

Originally Posted by mccollins

I think everyone gave you a lot of trust off this. Like it was a special villager role.

I thought the same thing for the first few days, but the longer you lived the more suspicious you became.

[nfg22]

Originally Posted by Sonic Youth

From what point did you know what it did is the one thing that I'd like to know.

Would you have been as annoyed with me if I'd revealed what it did like Oliegirl was with the bullet?

I agree though with the necklace not being much use in the game. Though if Anxiety had had it after his coming out with the Underground, it would have been very interesting.

I guess I thought my situation was different than Oliegirls.

Her situation was that she said what it did but not the name.

In my case we had said the name but not what it did.

I would rather the rest know the name but not the function.

Oh BTW when you said to search your posts, I then went through every one of them and found it.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

Why me? I wasn't a threat.

I say again

[jeheinz72]

Yeah I found the post too, but my whole thing is, he knew the post # (he referenced it's relation to the post Olie guessed) and still wouldn't say it.

I mean it's one thing if he had to go dig it himself, then I'm ok with him being just as lazy as us and not digging it up, but if all he had to do was post "754" then things would've been easier.

[Narcizo]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Lets say we took Narcizo's idea ( who I consider a very good player), what would the game consist of?

Yeah, I thought about that, which is why I presumed there was a mechanic to stop people doing that sort of thing. So it would have been the world's most boring game of Werewolf. But you'd have won. It's unlikely you'd be able to keep it up once the night kills and ship delays starting to arrive though. People would have got antsy and villagers would have been strung up/kicked off the boat.

My point was that I didn't understand why people like Barkeep were so hell-bent that there had to be a successful lynching or it was a disaster for the village. Especially when conversions were known, or at least strongly suspected, to be on the table. There was really little point lynching anyone on the first four or five days, given that. And even less reason to go around shooting people.

[st.cronin]

I don't think Barkeep played a particularly bad game (I agree that he did the right thing not revealing), but he did make one mistake (pushing on me) which was compounded with another mistake (using easily discredited evidence). His comments about Anxiety also seemed way off base to me. I thought it was obvious that Anxiety HAD to be telling the truth - I just couldn't construct a narrative that made sense, otherwise. Either Anxiety was telling the truth about being approached for conversion, in which case we had to believe he turned it down, since both of those claims came at the same time, or else he was in fact Underground when he told that story, which seemed completely out of the question. Pushing on Anxiety I think really turned the lynch tide against Barkeep.

I also still don't understand why anybody was ever suspicious of me.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Narcizo

And even less reason to go around shooting people.

I couldn't agree more.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

I say again

I think it was my decision to have you killed. Basically, my MO as a wolf is to go after the people who aren't expected to be targets, to minimize the chances of a bodyguard block. You didn't have any suspicion on you but weren't an obvious target either, so that is the perfect combination for a wolf kill IMO.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Narcizo

Yeah, I thought about that, which is why I presumed there was a mechanic to stop people doing that sort of thing. So it would have been the world's most boring game of Werewolf. But you'd have won. It's unlikely you'd be able to keep it up once the night kills and ship delays starting to arrive though. People would have got antsy and villagers would have been strung up/kicked off the boat.

I don't think it would have been boring. It would have been very interesting to see who could do it and who couldn't and when the wolves would have had to start speaking against the strategy. I knew pretty much all of the rules, so I knew it was a viable strategy that would win it for the villagers, and was desparately hoping no one would suggest it.

[Lathum]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Narcizo

So it would have been the world's most boring game of Werewolf. But you'd have won.

I would rather play like an animal, have fun and lose then have a game be boring and win.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by KWhit

I think it was my decision to have you killed. Basically, my MO as a wolf is to go after the people who aren't expected to be targets, to minimize the chances of a bodyguard block. You didn't have any suspicion on you but weren't an obvious target either, so that is the perfect combination for a wolf kill IMO.

Thanks!

[Passacaglia]

[quote=Lathum;1710305]

I would rather play like an animal, have fun and lose then have a game be boring and win.

What's your opinion on choosing not to say anything all day, then getting lynched by a game mechanic that doesn't even make you the top vote-getter?

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by Alan T

... (Like no one even ever bothered to look into HOopsguy's death) ...

Guess I know how I rate

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Guess I know how I rate

If it makes you feel better, hoops, I know how you died.

[Narcizo]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

What's your opinion on choosing not to say anything all day, then getting lynched by a game mechanic that doesn't even make you the top vote-getter?

If it's any consolation the only time I've been lynched it was by one solitary vote (ie only one person voted for me) while the main candidate got 3 or 4 votes but there was a game mechanic that meant he was temporarily immune to lynches. (In Alan's "Big City" game) It was particularly galling as I then worked out who the final remaining wolf was (SnDvls) the next day and the village would probably have got the win. Which, in turn, would mean that I would have a perfect winning record, instead of being 4/5.

Not that I'm bitter or anything.