Werewolf XVII: Return of the Wolves

[RPI-Fan]

st.cronin: Did your witness yield you seeing SnDvls attacked, or seeing him converted? Makes a big difference, and I'm not sure if I've yet seen it cleared up directly from you.

[pennywisesb]

Originally Posted by RPI-Fan

st.cronin: Did your witness yield you seeing SnDvls attacked, or seeing him converted? Makes a big difference, and I'm not sure if I've yet seen it cleared up directly from you.

Agreed. I think this information is pertinent to our voting patterns today.

[st.cronin]

I followed SnDvls and saw him turn into a wolf, and attack a villager. I assume if he were blessed, he would not have turned into a wolf. I assume the villager he attacked was, in fact, blessed. It's the only way I can make sense of what I saw.

[McSweeny]

what a mess

UNVOTE SNDVLS

we're already down the herbalist and now we may or may not have had a botched witness attempt? things aren't looking good

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I followed SnDvls and saw him turn into a wolf, and attack a villager. I assume if he were blessed, he would not have turned into a wolf. I assume the villager he attacked was, in fact, blessed. It's the only way I can make sense of what I saw.

I think this clears it up.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by McSweeny

what a mess

UNVOTE SNDVLS

we're already down the herbalist and now we may or may not have had a botched witness attempt? things aren't looking good

Let me be clear: I saw SnDvls turn into a wolf. The attack took place *after* he turned into a wolf.

[pennywisesb]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Let me be clear: I saw SnDvls turn into a wolf. The attack took place *after* he turned into a wolf.

So your witnessing powers allowed you to both a) witness SnDvls be attacked and transformed into a wolf and b) watch him attack someone else all in the same night?

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Let me be clear: I saw SnDvls turn into a wolf. The attack took place *after* he turned into a wolf.

I originally thought you were in fact a witness, but now I'm more convinced you were the person attacking me. The witness role clearly says that you can choose to view the killing. You claim you saw me turn into a wolf and then attack. I don't buy it. I know I was attacked, I don't know by whom. The only other person who would know I was attacked was the attacker and that my friend seems to be clear to me know it's you. I was given a second chance by being blessed, like I said before I'm onto some wolves and they don't like it. Now they are again just sitting back and watching us lynch another villager. Don't let this happen I'm begging you all. St. Cronin and his wolf boys are still out there, stop the innocent killing now.

[SnDvls]

should have added

UNVOTE SIRFOZZIZE

VOTE ST.CRONIN

[pennywisesb]

At this point there is obviously alot of suspicion cast on SnDvls, which is the main reason why I don't want to ally myself with him, but I do feel that St. Cronin's ability would not have allowed him to both watch SnDvls become converted as well as watch him then go on and attack someone. Just my .02. it'd be nice if we can get some other thoughts out there.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I followed SnDvls and saw him turn into a wolf, and attack a villager. I assume if he were blessed, he would not have turned into a wolf. I assume the villager he attacked was, in fact, blessed. It's the only way I can make sense of what I saw.

Hmm... this does seem like it would fit with the rules if we assume that the blessed was killed in the attack, and then resurrected due to the blessing.

[Mr. Wednesday]

SnDvls, who are you onto besides st. cronin?

pennywise, the way I read it st. cronin is clearly accusing SnDvls of being a wolf, period, not of being attacked and converted. i.e. SnDvls is the one who carried out the attack, and it failed only because the one taken was the blessed.

[Mr. Wednesday]

BTW, I find st. cronin's story credible. The main reason to fake a witnessing is because you yourself are witnessed, and yet that's not SnDvls counterargument. Also, I read the blessed as a one-shot deal, so we would at least not be losing the role if we're wrong.

VOTE SNDVLS

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

BTW, I find st. cronin's story credible. The main reason to fake a witnessing is because you yourself are witnessed, and yet that's not SnDvls counterargument. Also, I read the blessed as a one-shot deal, so we would at least not be losing the role if we're wrong.

VOTE SNDVLS

That's because he knows who the witness is, it's someone who either hasn't spoken up today because they haven't posted yet, or someone like hoops who is gone all day. It was a great play by St. C. He knew hoops (not sure who else stated they'd be gone all day) would be gone all day so no one to refute that we wasn't the witness. With everyone posting their avaliability it gave him an easy out.

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

SnDvls, who are you onto besides st. cronin?

reread some of my prior posts, but most of them are quiet ones again. Look I was a bad guy in several games. You lay low and say nothing or very minimal when two villagers are fighting and pile on once you see a chance. It makes your numbers stronger.

edit to fix quote bracket

[pennywisesb]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

pennywise, the way I read it st. cronin is clearly accusing SnDvls of being a wolf, period, not of being attacked and converted. i.e. SnDvls is the one who carried out the attack, and it failed only because the one taken was the blessed.

Good point, I misread what he had stated. I thought he meant that SnDvls was converted and then after the conversion attacked someone which sounded alittle far fetched to me. This makes sense now, at least enough for me to

VOTE SNDVLS

[Mr. Wednesday]

I wouldn't use my witnessing ability prior to a day where I wouldn't be available, but I suppose stranger things have happened.

[pennywisesb]

Originally Posted by SnDvls

That's because he knows who the witness is, it's someone who either hasn't spoken up today because they haven't posted yet, or someone like hoops who is gone all day. It was a great play by St. C. He knew hoops (not sure who else stated they'd be gone all day) would be gone all day so no one to refute that we wasn't the witness. With everyone posting their avaliability it gave him an easy out.

I think you are reaching alittle bit here. Pretty much everyone said they'd have a chance to sign on before the vote ended tonight, so wouldn't they be able to refute St. C's claims at that point? Sounds like a pretty ballsy move on St. Cronin's part. More of a delay than anything else.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by pennywisesb

So your witnessing powers allowed you to both a) witness SnDvls be attacked and transformed into a wolf and b) watch him attack someone else all in the same night?

Apparently. I didn't see who was attacked.

SnDvls story makes no sense. If I wasn't the witness, how would I know who the witness is? Obviously there are reasons for a wolf to pretend to be the witness, but the problem is that if I am *not* the witness, the real witness hasn't stepped forward. I don't know why SnDvls (or some other wolf) hasn't played that card yet - because, as far as I can figure, it's the only way to discredit me.

Also, I would assume that SnDvls is the cunning wolf, assuming that he is aware he is the cunning wolf. The sensible strategy on the wolves part would be to attack with the cunning wolf the first night, figuring the attack would be witnessed, and then the following day's lynching would discredit the witness. I don't see any other logical opening move, although this *is* my first werewolf game.

[Mr. Wednesday]

If you take the POV that st. cronin is a wolf who is falsely claiming to be a witness, you would have to presume that he had been witnessed. However, it would be a surprising play (to me) to not accuse the actual witness. I don't really see what the benefit in that would be, at least if you accuse the actual witness, you get a he said/she said that can wind up being a coin flip (or a "who got to post it first" race).

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

If you take the POV that st. cronin is a wolf who is falsely claiming to be a witness, you would have to presume that he had been witnessed. However, it would be a surprising play (to me) to not accuse the actual witness. I don't really see what the benefit in that would be, at least if you accuse the actual witness, you get a he said/she said that can wind up being a coin flip (or a "who got to post it first" race).

I'm confused. Several posts, including yours, seem to indicate that the wolves *know* who the witness is? How?

[Mr. Wednesday]

Dola, come to think of it, there is a very interesting play for the cunning wolf to do if witnessed. Accuse someone else, let the witness wade in, and you have the potential to implicate two villagers (the witness and the accused) and not just one. I gotta think some more about our best approach to this situation... though whatever else happens, I think we need to stick to SnDvls and st. cronin. It's pretty much a certainty that one of the two is a wolf. I'm still leaning to st. cronin's story being more credible right now.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I'm confused. Several posts, including yours, seem to indicate that the wolves *know* who the witness is? How?

Typically, when the witnessing occurs, the bad guys see the witness and learn who s/he is. That's not in the rules for this game, I don't know if Neon_Chaos forgot to include it, or if the bad guys actually don't learn the identity of the witness when witnessed.

[pennywisesb]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

Typically, when the witnessing occurs, the bad guys see the witness and learn who s/he is. That's not in the rules for this game, I don't know if Neon_Chaos forgot to include it, or if the bad guys actually don't learn the identity of the witness when witnessed.

Good point. Maybe Neon can clarify that for us.

Mr. Wed is definately in my circle of trust at the moment. His analysis so far has me believing he's definately a villager.

[dubb93]

Here are my two cents....

I see no reason not to believe the rules. The rules state:

If noone is killed, then you waste your view.

The night action post also clearly states:

Last night, you heard screams.... screams of terror.

You wake up, and look around. Noone is missing. You're not sure if that is a good thing, or a bad thing.

What you are sure of, however, is that you must lynch someone today.

What could the screams of terror indicate? I would say someone being blessed and coming back to life, per the rules. So it would fit with the rules, and plus, Sndvls has been making some desperate posts so far. My only concern is why the true blessed hasn't spoken up yet. There is no reason for him to hide now that his role has been used up. Unless another blessed speaks up I must believe both of them and assume St. Cronin mis-read his PM.

UNVOTE "MCSEENY"

[SackAttack]

I'm trying to grasp the events and my head is spinning. I have several Gamenikki things to do today, but I will check back in before the deadline and catch up on everything.

Until then, my previous vote stands as-is.

[st.cronin]

Nobody has yet said that they were attacked last night, right? and nobody has said they were the blessed? I would assume, then, that whoever was attacked was cursed.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Nobody has yet said that they were attacked last night, right? and nobody has said they were the blessed? I would assume, then, that whoever was attacked was cursed.

No, that much I do remember from when I read the thread a couple hours ago. There was one dude claiming to be blessed.

[dubb93]

Nobody has yet said that they were attacked last night, right? and nobody has said they were the blessed? I would assume, then, that whoever was attacked was cursed.

But being cursed and turning into a wolf does not involve death, which would have rendered your view worthless. The only way your story works is if the blessed was attacked and killed and then brought back to life.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Nobody has yet said that they were attacked last night, right? and nobody has said they were the blessed? I would assume, then, that whoever was attacked was cursed.

And Sndvls said he was blessed.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Right now, the only claims I've seen are that st. cronin is the witness and SnDvls is blessed -- and st. cronin's claim is such that both cannot be true as he claims that SnDvls was the attacker, not the attacked. Both cannot be true, so it certainly would help for the person actually being spoofed to speak up.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

Right now, the only claims I've seen are that st. cronin is the witness and SnDvls is blessed -- and st. cronin's claim is such that both cannot be true as he claims that SnDvls was the attacker, not the attacked. Both cannot be true, so it certainly would help for the person actually being spoofed to speak up.

Neon likes to get creative with his PM's. Prehaps St. Cronin is mis-reading it? It may not be as likely as one of either him or SnDvls flat out telling a lie, but this is Cronin's first game and he could be mis-reading the PM.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by dubb93

Neon likes to get creative with his PM's. Prehaps St. Cronin is mis-reading it? It may not be as likely as one of either him or SnDvls flat out telling a lie, but this is Cronin's first game and he could be mis-reading the PM.

Dubb, cronin originally posted the PM before editing it out....it was quite clear in that he followed sundvls, saw him turn into a warewolf and attack a villager...

He did it in quote form from a neon chaos quote, which i might have said was fake but the whole quote just reeked of neon chaos...it sounded like PMs ive gotten from him in past games.

[Mr. Wednesday]

I thought his last description of what he viewed was pretty straightforward -- SnDvls turned into a wolf and attacked someone, the one attacked not seen by st. cronin. The only thing to confuse there is the thing that did get confused, which was whether SnDvls was getting attacked and turned into a wolf, or was the attacker.

If you presume that st. cronin is telling the truth and SnDvls is the cunning wolf, then his play at being blessed might actually make more sense than claiming to be the witness -- we risk having to hang st. cronin to verify his role if we lynch SnDvls tonight and he appears to not be a wolf.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Blade, I'd suggest you not go there. You're compounding st. cronin's error. I'm going to try to forget I saw you post that.

[Blade6119]

He said sundvls turned into a wolf and attacked someone....sundvls was not the victim as per the PM he posted...no blessed or cursed about it, sundvls was the attacker

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

Blade, I'd suggest you not go there. You're compounding st. cronin's error. I'm going to try to forget I saw you post that.

Its only fair that if one or two saw it then everyone should know what it says...not fair for just two or three to know

[Mr. Wednesday]

Dude, it's bad enough that he posted the PM, at least he was good enough to edit it. Let's pretend it wasn't posted at all and not discuss the exact contents!

[Mr. Wednesday]

Dola, I realize you can't undo seeing it yourself, but it's best for the game IMO if it doesn't get discussed further.

[McSweeny]

well i'm heading out for the night and won't be back until sometime tomorrow.

VOTE SNDVLS

[dubb93]

Well I guess this is pretty clear then.

VOTE SNDVLS

[RPI-Fan]

Ok, here's what I feel happened.

SnDvls is the cunning wolf, and that's the "transformation" st.cronin witnessed. The wolves attacked the Blessed, or more likely the Cursed last night, and for some reason the real Blessed (or for more obvious reasons the Cursed) does not want to step up -- maybe they have a grand scheme, so I'm not really going to question that.

Bottom line:

VOTE SNDVLS

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by dubb93

Neon likes to get creative with his PM's. Prehaps St. Cronin is mis-reading it? It may not be as likely as one of either him or SnDvls flat out telling a lie, but this is Cronin's first game and he could be mis-reading the PM.

I don't think I am mis-reading it. It seems to me to be very clear:

SnDvls changes into wolf
wolf attacks anonymous villager
at that point I run away

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by RPI-Fan

Ok, here's what I feel happened.

SnDvls is the cunning wolf, and that's the "transformation" st.cronin witnessed. The wolves attacked the Blessed last night, and for some reason the real blessed does not want to step up -- maybe they have a grand scheme, so I'm not really going to question that.

Bottom line:

VOTE SNDVLS

That is my interpretation as well ... although I think it is also possible that the victim was 'cursed,' which is why the victim has not spoken up. I'm a little bit unsure how to interpret the rules.

I suppose there are other possibilities as well; the one thing I am sure of is that SnDvls is a wolf.

[Mr. Wednesday]

At this point, we're taking SnDvls word for it that the blessed is the one attacked. With nobody coming forward on the point (that is, neither another supposed witness nor someone else claiming to be blessed), I think it's looking more and more likely that the one attacked was cursed, not blessed.

[Blade6119]

Sundvls said cronin wasnt the one that attacked him, but wouldnt that mean cronin had to be the witness? Sundvls attacked someone last night, they got lucky and hit a cursed, and now we have 4 wolves and one less villager after we lynched pass...

i wanted to post this in case any of my thoughts get me killed...this is who i am intersted in besides sun:
RPI
Hoops
Mcsweeney
Kingfc
(not necessarily in that order)...

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

Sundvls said cronin wasnt the one that attacked him, but wouldnt that mean cronin had to be the witness? Sundvls attacked someone last night, they got lucky and hit a cursed, and now we have 4 wolves and one less villager after we lynched pass...

don't misquote me now. I said I was attacked. I don't know by whom, but if St. Cronin says it was him and by posting a fake PM that you belive and no one else here saw except Blade and St. C (which is against the rules, written or not, it's understood it's bad form) then go with that. I am the blessed I was attacked. St. C know's I was attacked which means one of two things. He attacked me or he was the witness. With him and Blade teaming up against me it looks like St. C is probally the wolf who once killed looks to be a villager and Blade is his wolf friend.

it's gonna really suck to be lynched by a bogus PM that's all.

[SnDvls]

cunning wolf is the role I was looking for re: St. C in my last post, just looked at the rules again.

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by RPI-Fan

Ok, here's what I feel happened.

SnDvls is the cunning wolf, and that's the "transformation" st.cronin witnessed. The wolves attacked the Blessed, or more likely the Cursed last night, and for some reason the real Blessed (or for more obvious reasons the Cursed) does not want to step up -- maybe they have a grand scheme, so I'm not really going to question that.

Bottom line:

VOTE SNDVLS

why is this the bottom line? St. C has you all fooled. I'm blessed, I was attacked. Who else would know I was attacked. reread the rules, no one was killed how could a witness see if no one was killed.

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by dubb93

Neon likes to get creative with his PM's. Prehaps St. Cronin is mis-reading it? It may not be as likely as one of either him or SnDvls flat out telling a lie, but this is Cronin's first game and he could be mis-reading the PM.

or making up a PM. All he had to do is get one person wolf or villager in Blade to read it and buy in. Hook, line, and sinker. Now Blade is spewing his lies about me being a wolf.

[st.cronin]

this game is fun