Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

I can understand a lot of the complaints about the product, but one thing you really can't accuse them of is hot shot booking.

We will just have to agree to disagree. They use the 3-4 week build to build a match. Rarely do they set anything up as good as Jericho/Owens anymore. I am guessing Jericho was the creative behind that idea because WWE doesnt think at that level anymore.

And when a character(Orton) burns down the compound of another character(Wyatt), the character needs to get his redemption or the character should die.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

And when a character(Orton) burns down the compound of another character(Wyatt), the character needs to get his redemption or the character should die.

Eh, the face/heel dynamic of that was/is so screwed up that I'm not sure what move qualifies as comeuppance for whom.

That whole deal just felt to me like a failed attempt to be "edgy", one that got farther off the rails as it went.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

So...video reminding people that Reigns was shoved down their throats again turns into tribute to Taker that gets the Raw crowd cheering for Taker, and they didn't foresee the Roman Sucks chant growing out of it? Then Reigns enters to massive boos but he's not a heel? Vince needs to be put down.

I haven't see the bit but my kid mentioned tonight's Raw segment. He said it felt like the actual heel turn ... if they don't change their mind about doing it anyway.

[Carman Bulldog]

I'm not in the Roman Reigns can't work camp, because I've seen him have some very entertaining matches with the right opponents. I always thought that it was wrong to fault him as a performer when I feel it is more the way he has been booked that is to blame. With that said, I feel like he was somewhat exposed last night. People always rip on his limited move set and that was no more evident than last night's match.

I get that Brock also only does a few moves, but Suplex City is still over huge as is the F5. Roman's spear gets a decent response (although I would say Rhyno's Gore was arguably more over, as was Goldberg's spear) but the Superman Punch needs to go.

[CrescentMoonie]

Joe's entrance and attire these days make him look more and more like Plus Size Taz every week.

[IlliniCub]

The thing about Roman is, in unscripted interviews and shoots where he is being himself he really comes across great. When writers give him stupid lines like Suffering succotash and push him down the fans throats of course it's awful. Not giving guys the creative freedom with their characters that wrestlers have had in the past is really killing the product.

[RainMaker]

Roman is fine in the ring. His character sucks though. Best description I've heard is he's AC Slater from Saved by the Bell.

Just make him a mercenary badass who is a heel. Fans want to boo him and he's great playing that role.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by Carman Bulldog

I'm not in the Roman Reigns can't work camp, because I've seen him have some very entertaining matches with the right opponents. I always thought that it was wrong to fault him as a performer when I feel it is more the way he has been booked that is to blame. With that said, I feel like he was somewhat exposed last night. People always rip on his limited move set and that was no more evident than last night's match.

I get that Brock also only does a few moves, but Suplex City is still over huge as is the F5. Roman's spear gets a decent response (although I would say Rhyno's Gore was arguably more over, as was Goldberg's spear) but the Superman Punch needs to go.

In defense of Roman, he was in the ring with a 300 lb sack of shit that couldn't land more than 5 moves at the Wrestlemania the year before in a hour long match. I don't know what he is suppose to do in that situation.

I thought it was great to let him just go out there and embrace the hate like Cena had done before. It's the same build they gave Jericho when he came back. Roman shouldn't say more than 5 words for every show until Bad Blood. Have him come out and kill someone at Payback & Extreme Rules. People would get behind a Roman who just beats people up.

Also his Superman Punch is more believable than a fireman's carry or the people's elbow. He should be using it like Stone Cold used the Stunner and just Superman Punch anyone who gets in his way (heel or face) every possible moment.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I haven't see the bit but my kid mentioned tonight's Raw segment. He said it felt like the actual heel turn ... if they don't change their mind about doing it anyway.

He had Vickie Guerrero heat last night. He pointed to the palm of his hand letting them know he had them where he wanted them.

[Neuqua]

I thought what Roman did last night was actually perfect.

[murrayyyyy]

Quick summary of Wyatt from Uproxx:

Remember when Bray Wyatt brainwashed Daniel Bryan, and then it was revealed that Bryan was fine and Wyatt got beaten up? It was cool, but Wyatt kinda looked like a dork. Remember when Wyatt kidnapped Kane and the Undertaker and “stole their souls” and got lightning powers, and then later Kane and Undertaker just showed up like “YOU DIDN’T DO ANYTHING” and beat him up? Remember the Roman Reigns feud where he just got beaten up all the time? Remember Cena trucking him at WrestleMania 30? Remember literally every time Bray Wyatt has tried to do something psychologically spooky or threatening to ANYONE more important than R-Truth? Nothing happens. It sucks, the matches suck, and we move on to the next time.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

He said it felt like the actual heel turn ... if they don't change their mind about doing it anyway.

Here's a theory: Reigns is already a heel. He gets booed every night. Sneers at fans. Tons of heat. The guy's basically getting the Cena vs Punk MitB reaction, but all the time. He even justed worked the Mania main event against a face. That's a heel, right?

The only reason he isn't considered a heel is that the WWE presents him as a face, pretending he's being cheered and sometimes putting him up against nominal heel characters.

Maybe they're doing that because they're honestly stupid and still think he's a face. We certainly can't rule that out. But maybe they've figured out that it's the only way to get real heel heat on anyone these days. Look at all their other heels -- Styles, Lesnar, Wyatt, Miz, HHH. They all get cheered, all the time. Of the top guys, Owens might be the only one who still feels heel-ish, and that might be stretching it.

Wrestling is about making the fans hate a guy and want to pay money to see him lose. But how do you get a heel over today, when the fans are contrarian about everything, often just for the sake of it? By pretending that you think he's a face. It's actually kind of brilliant.

That's the theory I'm going with. (Although yeah, the "they're idiots" version makes sense too.)

[CrescentMoonie]

Luke Harper looks more and more like Bruiser Brody every day.

Crowd crapped on Orton enough that they clearly muted the sound.

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Here's a theory: Reigns is already a heel. He gets booed every night. Sneers at fans. Tons of heat. The guy's basically getting the Cena vs Punk MitB reaction, but all the time. He even justed worked the Mania main event against a face. That's a heel, right?

The only reason he isn't considered a heel is that the WWE presents him as a face, pretending he's being cheered and sometimes putting him up against nominal heel characters.

Maybe they're doing that because they're honestly stupid and still think he's a face. We certainly can't rule that out. But maybe they've figured out that it's the only way to get real heel heat on anyone these days. Look at all their other heels -- Styles, Lesnar, Wyatt, Miz, HHH. They all get cheered, all the time. Of the top guys, Owens might be the only one who still feels heel-ish, and that might be stretching it.

Wrestling is about making the fans hate a guy and want to pay money to see him lose. But how do you get a heel over today, when the fans are contrarian about everything, often just for the sake of it? By pretending that you think he's a face. It's actually kind of brilliant.

That's the theory I'm going with. (Although yeah, the "they're idiots" version makes sense too.)

That's what Triple H basically said.

http://sportsillustrated.com.ph/US/e...rweight-brands

Levesque is tasked with manufacturing an organic brand, which is an enormous undertaking. Take the Roman Reigns conundrum as an example: The handsome, muscular, 6'4" Samoan is vociferously booed by WWE audiences, and there are constant demands from the fans to turn Reigns into a villain. Levesque has a different understanding of the situation.

“People can look at Roman Reigns and say, ‘The failed attempt that is Roman Reigns,’ but Roman Reigns sells tickets,” said Levesque. “Roman Reigns gets one of the loudest reactions every night, whether that reaction is a boo or whether that reaction is a cheer. The fans who say, ‘I don’t understand why they don’t turn Roman Reigns heel!’ Isn’t he already?

“If you believe what you believe, and you’re saying, ‘How can they not turn him heel? There is 70 percent of the crowd booing him out of the building!’ If that’s your belief, then isn’t he already the biggest heel we have? If 70 percent of that crowd is booing him, then he’s a heel. We’re just presenting him to you in a different way that makes you hate him.”

As much as Levesque is reimagining WWE, the internet has changed the entire business of pro wrestling.

“The internet has changed the world,” said Levesque. “We are the most opinionated people in the world now. You can find someone who will agree with you no matter what you think. You just go on the internet and, if you look hard enough, you’ll find someone who agrees with you. Gone is the day that everybody loves this one character, gone is the day that everybody hates this character. If you make a bad guy, there will be a group of people who love that character. He’s Darth Vader, he’s the bad guy, and they’ll love every evil thing he does. If you make a good guy, there are people who will love him, but there is the same group of people who will hate him. The fact of the matter is everybody will look at John Cena and say, ‘John Cena has consistently been this ‘Super Cena’ character and how can they not hear that half this arena hates him?’ You know what we hear? Tickets selling.

“I spoke with John in 2004 when I was going to work with him at WrestleMania, and he was a little bothered by the fact he was getting booed. I said to him, ‘Dude, it’s sold out. What do you care? You are the Yankees and the Red Sox in the same game.’ You cannot dictate to people anymore.”

[Neon_Chaos]

The above makes sense. Which means boos and cheers are currency that the WWE likes.

Silence and crowd ambivalence is what will provoke WWE to shake things up.

[Carman Bulldog]

I don't buy it. Unless the argument is that booking has absolutely nothing to with it and wrestler alignment has been completely re-classified to simply be defined as...

Face = Guy the crowd cheers for
Heel = Guy the crowd boos

I would argue that by definition a Heel is someone who is villainous in nature, and this can be reflected through his actions, such as cheating, insulting the fans, sneak attacks on other wrestlers and a myriad of other actions.

Fans generally want to see the heel get his comeuppance, and that eventually should come. By this new definition, Roman has been a heel since at least Royal Rumble 2015. We are still seemingly waiting on his comeuppance.

There is also the general idea that you send the fans home happy from your biggest event. We spent the first 30+ years of Wrestlemania's with the face winning 90% of the time and now we go back-to-back (to back?) heels with Reigns the past two years (and Rollins before that).

I mean, by their definition, X-Pac was a great heel and the reactions he was getting were excellent, when most people would classify X-Pac Heat as a bad thing.

[CrescentMoonie]

Okay, Miz and Maryse were awesome with Miz's voice sounding oddly like Obama, and the shock intro of Nakamura there was epic. That pop was close to the Hardy's pop at WM.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Carman Bulldog

I would argue that by definition a Heel is someone who is villainous in nature, and this can be reflected through his actions, such as cheating, insulting the fans, sneak attacks on other wrestlers and a myriad of other actions.

See, I'd say that definition died twenty years ago when Austin was stunning announcers, women and referees while flipping off the crowd and getting pushed as the face of the company. (Edit: Followed by Kurt Angle telling everyone to be honest and have integrity and getting nuclear heel heat for it.)

Originally Posted by Carman Bulldog

By this new definition, Roman has been a heel since at least Royal Rumble 2015.

I'm not saying this has been the plan all along. I think they were legitimately trying to get him over as a traditional face for a long time. But maybe they've changed course now, and this all leads to the fans desperately wanting Brock to destroy him at Summer Slam or Mania or wherever.

[dubb93]

Roman Reigns is in an odd place where large amounts of children love him and their parents are buying up his merchandise (Meltzer says he sells more than anyone else on the roster) while adults seem to flat out hate him. His reactions generally don't even get to the cute 50/50 place that Cena finds himself in. Generally he just gets large amounts of heat.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by dubb93

Roman Reigns is in an odd place where large amounts of children love him and their parents are buying up his merchandise (Meltzer says he sells more than anyone else on the roster) while adults seem to flat out hate him. His reactions generally don't even get to the cute 50/50 place that Cena finds himself in. Generally he just gets large amounts of heat.

Yeah, but didn't Cena have that exact same fan (heat/love) base 15ish years ago? My 13yr old loves Roman. His character could use some refreshing, but he's going to be a guy for a long time. I just don't think they really know what he is. It's in the blood. He's no Rocky, but I think it'll work itself out long term.

[Carman Bulldog]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

See, I'd say that definition died twenty years ago when Austin was stunning announcers, women and referees while flipping off the crowd and getting pushed as the face of the company. (Edit: Followed by Kurt Angle telling everyone to be honest and have integrity and getting nuclear heel heat for it.)

I get what you're saying, but even Austin underwent a large transition in the way that he was being booked, and arguably the change in booking was based on how the crowd reacted to him. I'm not saying that the crowd reaction can't come first (in fact, there are many times where it should and does), just that there should be a tweak in delivery.

My other concern with the status quo is that the booing the other night seemed to be a "get off my screen" type reaction, more so than a "I really dislike this guy and want to see him get his comeuppance" reaction. That's a dangerous path to travel down.

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by Carman Bulldog

My other concern with the status quo is that the booing the other night seemed to be a "get off my screen" type reaction, more so than a "I really dislike this guy and want to see him get his comeuppance" reaction. That's a dangerous path to travel down.

Exactly this. It feels more like X-Pac heat than true heel heat. I think the biggest miscalculation WWE is making is that the WM crowd is the outlier when they're probably the core of their audience.

[molson]

Does true heel heat really exist anymore? Which heels are booed to any great degree exclusively because of their dastardly deeds? Fans in the arena at least seem to love a good heel beatdown, especially when it's someone turning on someone else.

HHH has talked about this too, the only real heels left might be the bookers. So most guys who get big heel reactions tend to be connected to that backstage element of things. A guy gets heel heat if it's perceived he's being overpushed, or if he's otherwise seen as being unreasonably supported by the company. The flip side of that is the purest babyface heat belongs to those who are perceived by the fans as being in opposition to that authority somehow - usually either by being "held back," or by having success outside the WWE.

[Racer]

Originally Posted by Carman Bulldog

I get what you're saying, but even Austin underwent a large transition in the way that he was being booked, and arguably the change in booking was based on how the crowd reacted to him. I'm not saying that the crowd reaction can't come first (in fact, there are many times where it should and does), just that there should be a tweak in delivery.

My other concern with the status quo is that the booing the other night seemed to be a "get off my screen" type reaction, more so than a "I really dislike this guy and want to see him get his comeuppance" reaction. That's a dangerous path to travel down.

Is it possible some of the booing is coming from casual fans joining in for fun? I'm going to Smackdown in a couple of weeks as it'll be in Louisville and consider myself a fairly casual fan. If Reigns end up getting traded/drafted to Smackdown I plan on booing him since I think it's kind of amusing he draws the heat the he gets even though I'm relatively indifferent to him.

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by molson

Does true heel heat really exist anymore? Which heels are booed to any great degree exclusively because of their dastardly deeds? Fans in the arena at least seem to love a good heel beatdown, especially when it's someone turning on someone else.

HHH has talked about this too, the only real heels left might be the bookers. So most guys who get big heel reactions tend to be connected to that backstage element of things. A guy gets heel heat if it's perceived he's being overpushed, or if he's otherwise seen as being unreasonably supported by the company. The flip side of that is the purest babyface heat comes from those who are perceived by the fans as being in opposition to that authority somehow - usually by being "held back." So it's really no surprise the WWE uses the authority angles so often.

If your company books itself as the lead heel for 20 years, what other outcome would you expect?

[molson]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

If your company books itself as the lead heel for 20 years, what other outcome would you expect?

It's hard to envision a 2017, with the internet and a more knowledgeable fanbase, where fans hate great wrestlers like Kevin Owens and AJ Styles just because they are scripted to do dastardly things. ECW recognized this in their booking 20+ years ago.

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by molson

It's hard to envision a 2017, with the internet and a more knowledgeable fanbase, where fans hate great wrestlers like Kevin Owens and AJ Styles just because they are scripted to do dastardly things. ECW recognized this in their booking 20+ years ago.

And it was always losing money before finally going out of business.

Take guys like Styles and Owens, slot them in as a clear face vs heel dynamic, and watch them get the crowd to do what they want. Hell, Owens vs Jericho just did this with the crowd very clearly on Jericho's side. Neville's heel turn has been okay, but it really took off with Aries positioned as the face that fans actually like enough to boo Neville.

There can be tweeners, certainly, but we have examples right now of guys who have captured fans enough to get real heat when paired with faces fans actually want to cheer. WWE struggles mightily in presenting faces in a way that appeals to more than just the kiddie portion of their audience. Get that right and you'll have heels that get real heat again.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Racer

Is it possible some of the booing is coming from casual fans joining in for fun? I'm going to Smackdown in a couple of weeks as it'll be in Louisville and consider myself a fairly casual fan. If Reigns end up getting traded/drafted to Smackdown I plan on booing him since I think it's kind of amusing he draws the heat the he gets even though I'm relatively indifferent to him.

I think this is a big part of it.

The WWE is the main heel. Anything that WWE wants to push the fanbase has pushback against. Perhaps, the bookers should pick up on this and work it into more storylines.

Start burying Roman and he will be a fan favorite.

[molson]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

And it was always losing money before finally going out of business.
.

So did all of the territories. But the most successfully financial periods of the WWF and WCW looked a lot more like ECW than the AWA or Jim Crockett promotions.

I don't think heel v. face dynamics are obsolete. They can definitely work well on a case-by-case basis. I just think things are more fluid now and a company has to take into account how knowledgeable the fans are.

I think if Roman actually turned heel he'd get a huge babyface reaction. And that'd be OK. But I think they'll be more subtle and start booking him more often against babyfaces, like they putting him in the Mania main event against the Undertaker. Just like how the WWE didn't shy away from using superbabyface Cena against RVD in the ECW arena, or against CM Punk at Money in the Bank. They knew he'd get booed, just like they know Roman is going to get booed, but that anger can lead to compelling matches like those two.

And does Kevin Owens really get a lot of heel heat? I don't watch the TV show all the time, but usually I seem him get cheered. I'm pretty sure I've seen the fans cheer him when he directly insult them. That happened a lot with Jericho in his recent heel run too. He was getting cheered everywhere even though he was helping the heel champion cheat to win. His character was just so entertaining.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by molson

So did all of the territories. But the most successfully financial periods of the WWF and WCW looked a lot more like ECW than the AWA or Jim Crockett promotions.

I don't think heel v. face dynamics are obsolete. They can definitely work well on a case-by-case basis. I just think things are more fluid now and a company has to take into account how knowledgeable the fans are.

I think if Roman actually turned heel he'd get a huge babyface reaction. And that'd be OK. But I think they'll be more subtle and start booking him more often against babyfaces, like they putting him in the Mania main event against the Undertaker. Just like how the WWE didn't shy away from using superbabyface Cena against RVD in the ECW arena, or against CM Punk at Money in the Bank. They knew he'd get booed, just like they know Roman is going to get booed, but that anger can lead to compelling matches like those two.

Todays WWE just moves too fast. Quit watching for a couple months and you have no idea what is going on. Plus these matchups happen so often they dont have a "special" feel about them. They have also ruined "finishing" moves by having them kick out so many times at PPVs. It is still interesting to see certain performers and see who is being pushed but as for trying to portray it as a sport is completely gone.

I still think if they saved matches and had more squashes(in which the announcers hype storylines/wrestlers) and didnt need to have all these 50/50 matchups(which really arent because most fans know who is being pushed) the product itself would be better. If Dolph won 90 percent of his RAW matches he would be considered a threat against anyone at a PPV. Since he loses all the time on RAW he is not considered a legit threat on any PPV.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Racer

Is it possible some of the booing is coming from casual fans joining in for fun?

That's certainly where Kurt Angle seemed to be Monday night ... though how long it takes for the nostalgia rub to wear off is still up in the air.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

And does Kevin Owens really get a lot of heel heat?

I felt like he got it once he turned on Jericho at the Friendship Celebration. Prior to that I agree that he was getting face pops regardless of heel'ish actions.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

and had more squashes(in which the announcers hype storylines/wrestlers)

Now that's something I have no desire to see return. I struggle to get through squashes for all but the most impressive talent, even when I know there's perfectly good character development reason for one in some cases.

It's hard for me to set a hard dividing line on whether Wrestler X is perceived as having no chance because of Y amount of losses OR if it's because a lot of the fan base has a pretty good notion of how booking works and therefore knows who is likely to go over more often than not.

I mean, in theory, a bunch of 50-50 guys should mean we have coin toss expectations in their matches. And even a long winning streak (to build momentum for someone going up against a next-level-higher opponent) would telegraph certain expectations as well.

[SirFozzie]

I mean, look at James Ellsworth. People actually went nuts for him when he pulled off the "win" over AJ Styles.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Now that's something I have no desire to see return. I struggle to get through squashes for all but the most impressive talent, even when I know there's perfectly good character development reason for one in some cases.

It's hard for me to set a hard dividing line on whether Wrestler X is perceived as having no chance because of Y amount of losses OR if it's because a lot of the fan base has a pretty good notion of how booking works and therefore knows who is likely to go over more often than not.

I mean, in theory, a bunch of 50-50 guys should mean we have coin toss expectations in their matches. And even a long winning streak (to build momentum for someone going up against a next-level-higher opponent) would telegraph certain expectations as well.

The point behind it would be that instead of seeing Kevin Owens vs Dolph Ziggler on RAW 15 times in which KO wins 12 of their matches and now they have a short 1-2 month feud about something non sports related and have a PPV match that very few will actually care about, to actually save this match and have a legit feud in which the outcome is up in the air. I understand people dont like watching squash matches but if you use them to build the story and build up perceived talent of the main roster it would create better PPVs and better matchups.

Im not saying go all squash like WWF mid to late 80s but use the squash to build up the momentum of wrestlers that need it and advance storylines that way. Even keeping wrestlers out of the ring for awhile so they can tweak the character would help with perceived talent.

When we see the same matchups on RAW as well do the PPVs it doesnt really make the PPV matchups seem all the important.

[CrescentMoonie]

Stroman and Jax are evidence of how squash matches can still serve a purpose. You can't do it all the time, and you do have to be wise about who you put in those spots, but those matches established some character for Braun and Nia that has certainly helped them connect with the fans more quickly.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

When we see the same matchups on RAW as well do the PPVs it doesnt really make the PPV matchups seem all the important.

Since I'm probably paying more for Raw (based on hours watched versus my total Dish Network bill) than I'm paying for WWE Network ... I'm not sure how much PPV really means anymore.

I want good matches, period. Raw, Smackdown, PPV, wherever.

I'd be totally fine with 3-4 big events a year & blowing off the rest of the "PPV" calendar I think.

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Since I'm probably paying more for Raw (based on hours watched versus my total Dish Network bill) than I'm paying for WWE Network ... I'm not sure how much PPV really means anymore.

I want good matches, period. Raw, Smackdown, PPV, wherever.

I'd be totally fine with 3-4 big events a year & blowing off the rest of the "PPV" calendar I think.

I wonder how close we are to that? WWE isn't on DirecTV PPV anymore. If the other providers decide to ditch them then what's the point of the current PPV schedule? Rumble, Mania, Summerslam, Survivor Series, and that's about it as major events would be fine if the revenue is already there.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

I wonder how close we are to that? WWE isn't on DirecTV PPV anymore. If the other providers decide to ditch them then what's the point of the current PPV schedule? Rumble, Mania, Summerslam, Survivor Series, and that's about it as major events would be fine if the revenue is already there.

This is from last year.
http://www.pwtorch.com/site/2016/05/...ng-extinction/

And this
http://www.pwtorch.com/site/2016/07/...ee-year-trend/

2014 Q1 & Q2 PPV revenue: $37.3m
2016 Q1 & Q2 PPV revenue: $8.0m

[RainMaker]

I think the problem with WWE is there is too much TV time to fill. How do you build up a good feud without guys touching for a couple months when they have to be on TV every week? They either need much more talent on the roster and give guys every other week off or cut back on the amount of programming they offer (which will never happen).

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by dubb93

Roman Reigns is in an odd place where large amounts of children love him and their parents are buying up his merchandise (Meltzer says he sells more than anyone else on the roster) while adults seem to flat out hate him. His reactions generally don't even get to the cute 50/50 place that Cena finds himself in. Generally he just gets large amounts of heat.

Yep, he sucks. I think the actual person is a solid wrestler and probably can be effective on the microphone, but he has so many huge issues as a character:

1. His actions are often very heelish, but he's not positioned as a heel by the announcers or show.
2. He really only ever comes across as "smirking douche" when delivering his promos
3. The booking is just so forceful - it's 0% organic. WWE's mindset seems to be "The crowd will love him because we'll force them to" instead of "We'll push this guy because the crowd can't seem to get enough of him."
4. They have just continually booked him to be laughably overpowered in big situations - and if the rumors are true about their long-term planning it's only going to get worse.

It seems like WWE is constantly doubling down at this point, they're willing to feed anyone to him in the hopes he will finally get over.

Honestly if they just turned him heel I think a lot of the current booing would change to cheers almost overnight. He seems way more suited to it. I think the concern backstage is probably "If we make him heel - who is our top face?" With Cena being more of a part-timer now, there's a void to fill at the top.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I think the problem with WWE is there is too much TV time to fill. How do you build up a good feud without guys touching for a couple months when they have to be on TV every week? They either need much more talent on the roster and give guys every other week off or cut back on the amount of programming they offer (which will never happen).

31 guys and 10 women on the RAW roster and you need more people(not counting the 20 cruiserweights)? 32/8 are on Smackdown. Every week Smackdown only has 3-4 matches. The problem is they don't want to develop mid-card story lines because they want to control who you root for. Remember when Fandango was hotter than the sun? They tease Sandow by giving him the MIB only to get squashed by Cena.

It's easy to keep guys away from each other between PPVs if you used the entire roster correctly. How many tag teams are there on Smackdown to only have 1 match a week?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

How many tag teams are there on Smackdown to only have 1 match a week?

"but tag teams don't put butts in seats & don't sell merch ... not like Rrrrrrrrroman Rrrrrrrrreigns"

-- hypothetical VKM


edit to add: Nevermind the fact that the Smackdown crowd looked to be wearing between 1/3rd & 1/2 Bullet Club merch

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I think the problem with WWE is there is too much TV time to fill. How do you build up a good feud without guys touching for a couple months when they have to be on TV every week? They either need much more talent on the roster and give guys every other week off or cut back on the amount of programming they offer (which will never happen).

5 hours of primetime plus Main Event and 205 Live is ridiculous for the main roster every week. I can't imagine keeping things fresh without an enormous roster that's even bigger than the bloated one they have now.

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

31 guys and 10 women on the RAW roster and you need more people(not counting the 20 cruiserweights)? 32/8 are on Smackdown. Every week Smackdown only has 3-4 matches. The problem is they don't want to develop mid-card story lines because they want to control who you root for. Remember when Fandango was hotter than the sun? They tease Sandow by giving him the MIB only to get squashed by Cena.

It's easy to keep guys away from each other between PPVs if you used the entire roster correctly. How many tag teams are there on Smackdown to only have 1 match a week?

Raw should be a bit bigger with the 3 hour time slot. Smackdown, before Vince got mad that it was beating Raw in the ratings and took the belt off of AJ for no freaking reason, was being booked pretty well.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

31 guys and 10 women on the RAW roster and you need more people(not counting the 20 cruiserweights)? 32/8 are on Smackdown. Every week Smackdown only has 3-4 matches. The problem is they don't want to develop mid-card story lines because they want to control who you root for. Remember when Fandango was hotter than the sun? They tease Sandow by giving him the MIB only to get squashed by Cena.

It's easy to keep guys away from each other between PPVs if you used the entire roster correctly. How many tag teams are there on Smackdown to only have 1 match a week?

I agree to an extent. But how do you keep up a 3-4 month long feud between two wrestlers? It's 12-16 weekly shows and a couple PPVs.

And those numbers are a bit skewed. For instance on Raw, Brock, Big Show, and Goldberg are part timers. Rusev and Darren Young are injured. Out of the 10 women on Raw, only 7 are healthy right now. Dana has to do her bodybuilding shows for a few months a year. You have to cover 3 hours of Raw a week plus a match or two on Main Event. Plus a monthly PPV. And while you can throw a cruiserweight match or two on Raw a week, you still need an hour of content for them on 205 Live and Main Event.

They can do a better job with stuff but it's hard to have a tag division with 3-4 teams. A women's division with 5-6 women. And you have a handful of main eventers who must appear on TV each week.

[RainMaker]

An example too. NXT has around the same size roster as Raw or Smackdown but only gets an hour a week and a PPV every couple months. There is a reason their shows feel fresh and their feuds have heat. Nakamura and Roode didn't need to stand in the ring together each week for 2 months.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by molson

Does true heel heat really exist anymore? Which heels are booed to any great degree exclusively because of their dastardly deeds? Fans in the arena at least seem to love a good heel beatdown, especially when it's someone turning on someone else.

HHH has talked about this too, the only real heels left might be the bookers. So most guys who get big heel reactions tend to be connected to that backstage element of things. A guy gets heel heat if it's perceived he's being overpushed, or if he's otherwise seen as being unreasonably supported by the company. The flip side of that is the purest babyface heat belongs to those who are perceived by the fans as being in opposition to that authority somehow - usually either by being "held back," or by having success outside the WWE.

I agree, but that's only with regards to the WWE, because they tend to not give the fans what they want. If you watch ROH or NJPW, it's not the same.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I agree to an extent. But how do you keep up a 3-4 month long feud between two wrestlers? It's 12-16 weekly shows and a couple PPVs.

And those numbers are a bit skewed. For instance on Raw, Brock, Big Show, and Goldberg are part timers. Rusev and Darren Young are injured. Out of the 10 women on Raw, only 7 are healthy right now. Dana has to do her bodybuilding shows for a few months a year. You have to cover 3 hours of Raw a week plus a match or two on Main Event. Plus a monthly PPV. And while you can throw a cruiserweight match or two on Raw a week, you still need an hour of content for them on 205 Live and Main Event.

They can do a better job with stuff but it's hard to have a tag division with 3-4 teams. A women's division with 5-6 women. And you have a handful of main eventers who must appear on TV each week.

Smackdown averages 30 mins of actual wrestling during it's two hour show a week. And even with a show that has an hour and a half of talking, their most popular thing is Talking Smack after which is nothing but talking and has younger wrestlers like Bliss or Corbin get more mic time or put Miz over even more. And when the New Day gets traded to Smackdown next week, there will be even less wrestling probably.

AJ/Shane never had to have a match in the month before. Cena-Miz didn't have a match. Corbin-Ambrose didn't have a match. Orton-Wyatt didn't have a match(and still haven't aye-oh). With regards to the tag division, WWE has always done it horribly. But still you should be able to spread things out over weeks to built up a tag team to the #1 contenders spot. I mean they just kept their longest running tag team champions of the world off Wrestlemania and then had them job to the Revival the next night. This will not make me buy your Otter Pops rip -off.

Smackdown for the past 5 show below just shows how little they actually wrestle and why the show seems fresher (I know an hour shorter but you can break up a 10 man tag match to different matches).

March 28th Smackdown
2 Becky Lynch Draw (NC) Carmella 02:00 Commentator: Alexa Bliss
Commentator: Mickie James
3 Alexa Bliss & Carmella Def. (Pin) Becky Lynch & Mickie James 09:40 Commentator: Natalya
4 Chad Gable & Heath Slater & Jason Jordan & Mojo Rawley & Rhyno Def. (Pin) Dolph Ziggler & Fandango & Jey Uso & Jimmy Uso & Tyler Breeze 11:05 10-Person Tag
5 Bray Wyatt Def. (Pin) Luke Harper 08:10

March 21st Smackdown
1 Jey Uso & Jimmy Uso (Pin) Chad Gable (C) & Jason Jordan (C) 13:40 WWE Smackdown Tag Team Championship
(Title Change) ***¾
2 Randy Orton Def. (Pin) Baron Corbin 12:48
3 John Cena Def. (Sub) Fandango 01:25
4 Carmella Def. (DQ) Becky Lynch 00:41 Commentator: Natalya

March 14th Smackdown
2 Becky Lynch Def. (Sub) Natalya 08:45
3 Mickie James Def. (Pin) Alexa Bliss 08:36
4 Mojo Rawley Def. (CO) Dolph Ziggler 02:29
5 Jey Uso & Jimmy Uso Def. (Pin) Chad Gable & Jason Jordan 10:36

March 7th Smackdown
2 John Cena & Nikki Bella Def. (Sub) Carmella & James Ellsworth 07:06 Commentator: Maryse
Commentator: The Miz
3 Alexa Bliss & Mickie James Def. (Pin) Becky Lynch & Natalya 12:40
4 Randy Orton Def. (Pin) A.J. Styles 17:42

Feb 28th Smackdown
2 Becky Lynch Def. (Sub) Mickie James 14:08 2 Out Of 3 Falls
3 A.J. Styles Def. (Pin) Luke Harper 11:57
4 Curt Hawkins Draw (NC) Dean Ambrose
5 Dolph Ziggler Def. (Pin) Apollo Crews 08:55 Chair

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

An example too. NXT has around the same size roster as Raw or Smackdown but only gets an hour a week and a PPV every couple months. There is a reason their shows feel fresh and their feuds have heat. Nakamura and Roode didn't need to stand in the ring together each week for 2 months.

But there's also a reason I really don't feel much need to check NXT more than about once or twice between PPVs. Victory over local jobber or over roster cannon fodder isn't worth my time or effort to watch.