FBI Opens Investigation into Shooting of Michael Brown

[RainMaker]

I would not compare the two in any way. Vox is also an embarrassing media outlet.

[ISiddiqui]

I notice you don't actually address the point made about what people felt about the Civil Rights Movement at the time compared to what we feel about it now.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I notice you don't actually address the point made about what people felt about the Civil Rights Movement at the time compared to what we feel about it now.

There was no point being made. Just that these two separate groups of activists at one time had similar views from the public. I could probably find a period of time when the KKK had a similar view from the public. Doesn't make them similar in any way.

It's a hack piece written by a hack writer for a hack media outlet.

[ISiddiqui]

Facts are inconvenient things, eh? The point being made its that media coverage tends to make people think movements are more violent than they actually are.

And I really don't see much of difference between the Civil Rights Movement and Black Lives Matter, vast majority of whose protests are based on nonviolent marches of MLK, and neither do people like John Lewis who were prominent in the Civil Rights Movement... But what do they know, right?

And I will take Vox over most other news sources. Most of their articles are sourced, at least. Including these stats... So instead of ad hominem and deflection, it may be worthwhile to actually address the facts as presented.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Facts are inconvenient things, eh? The point being made its that media coverage tends to make people think movements are more violent than they actually are.

And I really don't see much of difference between the Civil Rights Movement and Black Lives Matter, vast majority of whose protests are based on nonviolent marches of MLK, and neither do people like John Lewis who were prominent in the Civil Rights Movement... But what do they know, right?

And I will take Vox over most other news sources. Most of their articles are sourced, at least. Including these stats... So instead of ad hominem and deflection, it may be worthwhile to actually address the facts as presented.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

What fact? That the polls were similar at particular points in history? That means nothing. Correlation does not imply causation. Like I said, I can likely go back in time and find a period where the KKK polled similarly to Black Lives Matter to the American public. It does not mean they are similar in any way.

I see huge differences in the two. The CRM was more organized. It had leaders. It had defined causes and policies it wanted enacted. There are similarities of course. They both are protesters and they both are for the most part non-violent. I would argue that CRM did so in the face of much more violence than these protesters face (which is often exaggerated for activist cred).

As for Vox, it's not a news source. It's an activist website. Nothing wrong with that. There are sites like Daily Kos and Redstate that do the same thing. I'm happy there are jobs out there for Sociology majors.

[JonInMiddleGA]

http://onlineathens.com/mobile/2016-...-gang-shooting

7 injured in gang shooting in Athens

the shooting appeared to be a flare-up in a rivalry between two local street gangs that has already claimed two lives over the past couple of years

[booradley]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

That's a way to make your message inclusive...

Black Lives Matter leader orders whites to the back of DNC march in Philly: Reports | PennLive.com


The challenge is, in my eyes, most of these organizers are just as racist as those they oppose. They just happen to point their hate sword in the opposite direction.

The message here is that everyone hates white nerds presuming to stick their nose into everyone's business. They are the least knowledgeable and the least desirable of all groups acting to effect societal change, as they (gasp!) don't live their day-to-day lives within the parameters of the very groups they arrogantly presume to champion. If I were a disenfranchised black, I would laugh at loud at any white liberal looking to identify with me. Right before I accused them of being of being racist as hell, for their audacious presumption.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

http://onlineathens.com/mobile/2016-...-gang-shooting

7 injured in gang shooting in Athens

How does this fit into the thread?

[MrBug708]

Not Jon, but I assumed that this is the unofficial shooting thread

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by booradley

The message here is that everyone hates white nerds presuming to stick their nose into everyone's business. They are the least knowledgeable and the least desirable of all groups acting to effect societal change, as they (gasp!) don't live their day-to-day lives within the parameters of the very groups they arrogantly presume to champion. If I were a disenfranchised black, I would laugh at loud at any white liberal looking to identify with me. Right before I accused them of being of being racist as hell, for their audacious presumption.

You're right - the original civil rights movement would have been much easier if those assholes LBJ and the Kennedy's didn't get involved. Police brutality and over-militarization are not racial issues, and I don't need to be personally racially discriminated against to know it happens. But I also don't need to be a racist Trump supporter or like SJW's to see that a sizable (though probably not a majority) portion of "BLM activists" share this view and are more interested in venting anger and (whether intentionally or not) exacerbating racial divides than widening support for the cause and actually effecting positive change. Thank god the original civil rights leaders were smarter than that.

Originally Posted by https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/in-march-on-washington-white-activists-were-largely-overlooked-but-strategically-essential/2013/08/25/f2738c2a-eb27-11e2-8023-b7f07811d98e_story.html

“The idea really was to say to those people in the middle, white folks in the middle, ‘You have to come and support this movement. You can’t sit on the fence anymore,’ ” remembers Rachelle Horowitz, who coordinated transportation for the March on Washington as an aide to lead organizer Bayard Rustin.

To reach those “white folks in the middle,” March organizers had to ensure that their movement not be seen as solely a “Negro thing.”
...
Cox, the SNCC activist, says the (white) celebrity participants, as well as the political and religious leaders, were cultural “legitimizers.”

Lonnie Bunch, director of the Smithsonian’s upcoming National Museum of African American History and Culture, says they allowed the “march to claim its American-ness as well as its black American-ness. Here were people who didn’t visibly have a stake in this fight suddenly saying, ‘This is our fight as well.’ ”

Country's 12% black. Laws tend to get passed and social norms tend to change when 51% or more of the population supports it. Figure it out.

[booradley]

Eh. I had been drinking, and apparently my inner "mean streak" decided to enjoy a day out. I know some of these folks are just fighting the good fight. In the cold light of day, realize I shouldn't have painted in such broad strokes ...

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

How does this fit into the thread?

I figured our resident handwringers would be marching in the streets to protest a mass shooting like this.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

What fact? That the polls were similar at particular points in history? That means nothing. Correlation does not imply causation. Like I said, I can likely go back in time and find a period where the KKK polled similarly to Black Lives Matter to the American public. It does not mean they are similar in any way.

I see huge differences in the two. The CRM was more organized. It had leaders. It had defined causes and policies it wanted enacted. There are similarities of course. They both are protesters and they both are for the most part non-violent. I would argue that CRM did so in the face of much more violence than these protesters face (which is often exaggerated for activist cred).

Trying to say the KKK polled similarly and therefore it's the same as comparing BLM to the Civil Rights Movement is stunningly disingenuous. The later two movements are campaigning for equality for African-Americans, by mostly peaceful non-violent marches. Their specific equality movements may be different (anti-segregation vs. anti-police brutality & legal discrimination of minorities), but they are on the same spectrum. They aren't totally disparate movements or goals. (and FWIW, the civil rights movement existed well before Martin Luther King, Jr. came to national prominence and was far more decentralized early on - actually the move Selma speaks to this somewhat, as MLK had recently become the leader of the movement and taking over other groups that were active beforehand, such as SNCC)

The comparison was made to indicate that a movement that we all (mostly) praise was, at its time, considered by most Americans to be violent and not helpful for black equality. Therefore, maybe we should look at media coverage of BLM and think that maybe they are playing up the negative aspects for ratings... just as they did for the civil rights movement.

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

http://onlineathens.com/mobile/2016-...-gang-shooting

7 injured in gang shooting in Athens

Amateurs.

Last 2 months in Chicago:
June: 72 killed, 400 injured
July: 65 killed, 362 wounded

[molson]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

Amateurs.

Last 2 months in Chicago:
June: 72 killed, 400 injured
July: 65 killed, 362 wounded

That's pretty crazy for 2016, but it's also interesting to look back at where we used to be. Chicago had 488 homicides last year, and they're on a pace for around 650 this year (but I'm guessing June and July are the biggest murder months, so maybe they're trending for somewhat less than that.). But in 1992, they had 943. The new normal is a lot better than the old normal. And that early 90s era is a when a lot changed with police spending, three-strikes laws, minimum sentences, minimization of federal habeas review, etc. And all that stuff is tough to scale back, even as our country gets safer, because a "go softer on crime" approach isn't going to get a ton of momentum behind it most places. Especially when it seems like, as a society, our exceptions have changed and we're just as upset about the amount of crime and violence today as we were when there was twice as much of it (and much more than twice as much in some places, like New York).

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

That's pretty crazy for 2016, but it's also interesting to look back at where we used to be. Chicago had 488 homicides last year, and they're on a pace for around 650 this year (but I'm guessing June and July are the biggest murder months, so maybe they're trending for somewhat less than that.). But in 1992, they had 943. The new normal is a lot better than the old normal. And that early 90s era is a when a lot changed with police spending, three-strikes laws, minimum sentences, minimization of federal habeas review, etc. And all that stuff is tough to scale back, even as our country gets safer, because a "go softer on crime" approach isn't going to get a ton of momentum behind it most places. Especially when it seems like, as a society, our exceptions have changed and we're just as upset about the amount of crime and violence today as we were when there was twice as much of it (and much more than twice as much in some places, like New York).

The city has gotten really good at saving lives of people who have been shot. Trauma Centers are better prepared (and closer to the area where shootings happen) and the technology from first responders is better. I read an article (which I can't find right now) about this a couple years ago that showed the numbers on it and it was staggering how fewer deaths per shooting there are now.

The city also lies a lot when it comes to their crime stats. They stopped counting expressway shootings in the city totals despite the crimes taking place in the city. So far this year we're on pace for around 50 of those. They also leave some murders under the "death investigation" and never get around to marking them as homicides. And some they conveniently just leave out of the statistics reports.

And this doesn't just go for homicides. They stopped reporting robbery/thefts under $500 so conveniently they could tout how robbery was down. They stopped reporting arson in the stats so property damage magically went down. They routinely change armed robberies to theft or lost/misplaced items down the road.

If you're bored, ChicagoMag did a phenomenal investigative report on it. If you enjoyed the stuff from The Wire, it's straight out of that playbook. Chicago isn't the only city doing it but this is the deepest look into it I've ever seen.

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Ma...o-crime-rates/
http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Ma...me-statistics/

[RainMaker]

I also can't remember a time since I've been in the city as an adult where robberies were so common in the nicer areas. They've taken most of the cops out of these areas so muggers have free reign now. You used to hear about an occasional mugging but now there are a few everyday in Lakeview and Lincoln Park. Heck someone just got shot 8 blocks from me last night (right by Wrigley). And a lot of these crimes are now taking place in broad daylight because the police response is so slow.

I'll probably bail to the suburbs at some point. It's still pretty nice but at some point it'll get to a point where the cost to live in these neighborhoods isn't worth the hassle of being robbed.

[flere-imsaho]

Jeez, if it's like that up there now, what's it like in Bucktown/Wicker Park/Ukrainian Village?

Back when we lived in the last area folks used to tell us about how it was a shooting gallery back in the early '90s. Hard to believe everyone that spent money gentrifying these areas is going to allow the city to let it slide back to shit.

[RainMaker]

Those areas are nicer than they were back in the 90's for sure. So the gentrifying took.

Wicker Park has had a bunch of shootings this year though which I can't imagine the people are happy about. Also a dumb gang war started up in Logan Square this year. Shot a 6 year old in the back a couple months ago. Couple blocks from where I had an office years ago.

6-year-old girl hospitalized again after shooting - Chicago Tribune

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Went to Chicago over the weekend on business. Involved going to some rough neighborhoods. Some of those areas I was in made my time in Baltimore seem pleasant.

[Dutch]

Hey Baltimore, have a Snickers, you're acting a little Chicago.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Went to Chicago over the weekend on business. Involved going to some rough neighborhoods. Some of those areas I was in made my time in Baltimore seem pleasant.

What neighborhoods? The bad stuff is really contained ti a few areas and they aren't areas I've seen business taking place. Well unless you're a trauma surgeon or drug dealer.

[cartman]

Does seeing Cabrini Green from the Kennedy Expressway count?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

The later two movements are campaigning for equality for African-Americans, by mostly peaceful non-violent marches.

LOL, if you actually believe that about BLM ... sorry, I can't seem to stop laughing.

[ISiddiqui]

Well you are an idiot who wouldn't know a fact if it bit you in the ass, so...

[larrymcg421]

Trying to imagine what MBBF would consider a "rough neighborhood" and I can't stop laughing.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by cartman

Does seeing Cabrini Green from the Kennedy Expressway count?

Torn down.

[molson]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Trying to imagine what MBBF would consider a "rough neighborhood" and I can't stop laughing.

I'm intrigued about what "business" MBBF is conducting in the bad parts of Chicago.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Torn down.

Damn, I guess it has been a few years since I was in Chi-town.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by molson

I'm intrigued about what "business" MBBF is conducting in the bad parts of Chicago.

I'm going to give MBBF the benefit of the doubt* and guess it's something to do with the wine business and shopping the product to various restaurants.

As we've been discussing, a lot of the newly-cooler parts of town are right on the edges of pretty dangerous areas. Chicago has always been this way. Be somewhere and walk a couple of blocks in the wrong direction and you're potentially in a lot of trouble.

And, if you're going to various places across the metro, you will drive through these areas, which can be pretty sketchy, especially if you're not used to being in a big city.

Don't get me wrong - Chicago's a great place, in general, and I liked living there. But there were definitely parts I didn't like.


*for once

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by cartman

Damn, I guess it has been a few years since I was in Chi-town.

Was supposed to be redeveloped into a combination of luxury and mixed-income housing but in traditional Chicago fashion it's been quickly fucked up with stupidity and corruption.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by molson

I'm intrigued about what "business" MBBF is conducting in the bad parts of Chicago.

Probably trying to buy a hot XBox One.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

As we've been discussing, a lot of the newly-cooler parts of town are right on the edges of pretty dangerous areas.

Seems to be the cast in a lot of cities. In gentrifying neighborhoods, folks that want to move 'back into town' to be closer to some of the benefits of urban living don't have tons of money, so they are buying somewhat cheap areas which are relatively close to the nice areas, without having to pay to live in the nice areas. And over time enough people move in that that neighborhood becomes the cool area, but it's still next to the even cheaper, more dangerous area (which will be the next neighborhood to gentrify). It's been happening in Atlanta for the last 20 years.

[NobodyHere]

Mother of Police Shooting Suspect Blames Black Lives Matter

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by cartman

Damn, I guess it has been a few years since I was in Chi-town.

It's a nice area now too. Cabrini-Green at the end was weird because the neighborhood around it was becoming real nice with that giant turd in the middle.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I'm going to give MBBF the benefit of the doubt* and guess it's something to do with the wine business and shopping the product to various restaurants.

As we've been discussing, a lot of the newly-cooler parts of town are right on the edges of pretty dangerous areas. Chicago has always been this way. Be somewhere and walk a couple of blocks in the wrong direction and you're potentially in a lot of trouble.

And, if you're going to various places across the metro, you will drive through these areas, which can be pretty sketchy, especially if you're not used to being in a big city.

Don't get me wrong - Chicago's a great place, in general, and I liked living there. But there were definitely parts I didn't like.


*for once

I wasn't questioning his honesty, just genuinely curious what parts he'd do business in that were that bad. The Loop where most business takes place is incredibly safe and nice. And most people who come here on business end up staying in River North which is also great.

Chicago has a bad reputation but the crime is really concentrated to a few neighborhoods in the entire city. And most of those homicides are gang on gang. Even the areas I mentioned earlier that had seen an uptick in crime are really nice and you wouldn't think twice about walking around during the day. And the crimes that do take place are typically muggings.

The only time I ever felt unsafe was one time when I was going to Michigan and had to pull off on South Side to get gas. I think I filled up about $6 worth and got the fuck out of there.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I wasn't questioning his honesty, just genuinely curious what parts he'd do business in that were that bad. The Loop where most business takes place is incredibly safe and nice. And most people who come here on business end up staying in River North which is also great.

Chicago has a bad reputation but the crime is really concentrated to a few neighborhoods in the entire city. And most of those homicides are gang on gang. Even the areas I mentioned earlier that had seen an uptick in crime are really nice and you wouldn't think twice about walking around during the day. And the crimes that do take place are typically muggings.

The only time I ever felt unsafe was one time when I was going to Michigan and had to pull off on South Side to get gas. I think I filled up about $6 worth and got the fuck out of there.

I was in Cicero and the surrounding areas.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I was in Cicero and the surrounding areas.

Cicero got run over with Mexican gangbangers. It's a shame because at a time it was a nice suburb.

[NobodyHere]

So the police shooting of Korryn Gaines is getting some attention

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b08a8e8b5f9fd4

Police officers showed up at her apartment to serve an arrest warrant. She allegedly aimed a shotgun at police officers and threatened to kill them. A policeman fired a shot and Korryn was killed in the ensuing gun battle.

But go to the link for her previous traffic stop arrest. She was an unhinged woman with an axe to grind.

ETA: Here's the full version of the traffic stop.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPG7HYGQlaA

[Logan]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

So the police shooting of Korryn Gaines is getting some attention

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b08a8e8b5f9fd4

Police officers showed up at her apartment to serve an arrest warrant. She allegedly aimed a shotgun at police officers and threatened to kill them. A policeman fired a shot and Korryn was killed in the ensuing gun battle.

But go to the link for her previous traffic stop arrest. She was an unhinged woman with an axe to grind.

ETA: Here's the full version of the traffic stop.
Korryn Gaines traffic stop that led to her getting killed five months later - YouTube

So what portion of the police account is in dispute at this point? It says in the article that she allegedly fired back at them, so that should be easy to prove with shells or from impact somewhere around the house.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Logan

So what portion of the police account is in dispute at this point? It says in the article that she allegedly fired back at them, so that should be easy to prove with shells or from impact somewhere around the house.

Well all we have right now is the police account about her pointing a shotgun and threatening to kill the police. Some people have zero faith in police reports especially when a person winds up dead. Though it's not like the police haven't lied to us over and over again, such as "I was aiming for the autistic boy but slapped cuffs on the black guy anyways".

[CraigSca]

Watching the video of the traffic stop is uh....enlightening.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Cicero got run over with Mexican gangbangers. It's a shame because at a time it was a nice suburb.

Good example, though, of how Chicago's presence as a major transshipment hub for drugs, makes it a problematic place for crime. I mean, look at Cicero's placement vis-a-vis transportation....

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Good example, though, of how Chicago's presence as a major transshipment hub for drugs, makes it a problematic place for crime. I mean, look at Cicero's placement vis-a-vis transportation....

Yup, Cicero is where Capone operated out of too.

[cuervo72]

Speaking of Chicago, this came across my FB so it must be starting to make the rounds.

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.p...00006046874742

[RainMaker]

I know him. He ran for Alderman in my ward. Real nice guy. Got fucked by the Democratic Party pretty hard.

[nol]

Originally Posted by molson

Nah, I've seen plenty of non-white and non-rich people make incredible positive changes through their communities, local governments, and charitable organizations. In fact, there's really not a lot of rich white people hanging around these communities and organizations that need the most help. And overcoming adversity gives you credibility with people, and I think teaches you a ton of skills to help further positive change.

Oh, exactly! I'm not willing to listen to any person's ideas for what they are unless they have proven themselves capable of overcoming the proper amount of adversity as I see fit (and if they're too uppity about it like all those Black Lives Matter protesters, you can forget about it).

[AlexB]

Some fucktards have taken up the US BLM approach here now, protesting that UK police deaths of black and minority ethnic people matter too, and the police violence against BAME must stop.

Would be fair enough if it were true: 87% white population, less than 10% of deaths after contact with the police since 1990 are BAME, so statistically less likely to die due to police in UK than white people.

Not saying we're in a blissful harmony here, but their attempt to mirror the main US BLM message is plain wrong. Change the focus, not Black Lives Matter, more awareness and breaking any glass ceilings that may well exist would be a better campaign.

[AlexB]

Dola, I do accept that the action will reignite the debate, which can only help, but not sure they had to do it the way they did - an overreaction to the problems here IMO

[RainMaker]

LOL enjoy the fun.