2020 Democratic Primaries/General Election Thread

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Plant? Who knows.

Stein, though, went to Russia and dined with Putin and Flynn. I have no doubt she's tied into the 2016 fuckery.

Gabbard has met with Assad. She refuses to disavow Russian support. Or David Duke support. Or Bannon, Breitbart support. She's a dangerous character, hiding something.

Was Stein a Russian plant when running for Mass Governor as early as 2002? She's just a lunatic.

I also dislike Gabbard, but I'm not sure she's hiding anything. She owns her extreme positions, and then she shows up on a debate stage and people go "oh look, a pretty lady" and assume she's normal & put her back in the conversation.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Was Stein a Russian plant when running for Mass Governor as early as 2002? She's just a lunatic.

I also dislike Gabbard, but I'm not sure she's hiding anything. She owns her extreme positions, and then she shows up on a debate stage and people go "oh look, a pretty lady" and assume she's normal & put her back in the conversation.

This article sums up the situation with Gabbard very well IMO

Tulsi Gabbard Is Being Used by the Russians, and to a Former US Double Agent, the Evidence Is Clear | Opinion

[NobodyHere]

Newsweek? Seriously? And an opinion piece at that.

[tarcone]

One of the best movies out there is The Manchurian Candidate (1962) which is much better than the 2004 version.

Some of you need to watch it. It may fuel your fire.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Atocep

This article sums up the situation with Gabbard very well IMO

Tulsi Gabbard Is Being Used by the Russians, and to a Former US Double Agent, the Evidence Is Clear | Opinion

I may have missed something in the article but did not see any evidence in the article specific to Tulsi.

It talked about how Russia would do it etc. but here's what they/Tulsi did X, Y, Z doesn't appear anywhere (e.g. If borne out, may choose etc.).

Better titled "Here is how Russia will do X" vs. "Tulsi is being used by the Russians".

After all, Russia's goal in 2016 was the delegitimization of our elections; they did not need to coordinate with Trump to make that happen. That's the disturbing parallel with Gabbard: Russia can seek to support her, without her knowledge.

If borne out, Russian support of Gabbard does not mean that she is a Russian-directed operative, or that she has ties with or is in contact with Moscow. As I learned during my operational time working against Russian intelligence, the targeting of U.S. persons for recruitment by a foreign intelligence service does not make that person guilty of a crime. The same holds true if Russia seeks to independently aid the Gabbard campaign. Russia may choose to covertly amplify her message by building what may look like organic and grass roots online support for her. They may take some of her talking points—such as, Assad "is not the enemy of the U.S." or that the U.S. is in "a new nuclear arms race"—and work to increase their reach across social media.

While the amplification of controversial viewpoints is a method by which Russia creates division and chaos in our political process, the solution is not to remove Gabbard, silence her, or stop the vigorous debate of far-ranging ideas. Rather, the solution is to recognize these threats and stop Russia from unnaturally amplifying any one message.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Newsweek? Seriously? And an opinion piece at that.

Yes, it's an opinion piece because we're talking about how Gabbard could be used by the Russian propaganda machine. It's not like anyone has access to definitive proof so we look at how and why Russia would do it without Gabbard necessarily knowing she's being used. I didn't post it as definitive proof of anything. Based on the ongoing conversation it was relevant. Maybe I should have opened up with the "I'm not a Trump fan" disclaimer?

I'll ask what about the content of the article would you disagree with?

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I may have missed something in the article but did not see any evidence in the article specific to Tulsi.

It talked about how Russia would do it etc. but here's what they/Tulsi did X, Y, Z doesn't appear anywhere (e.g. If borne out, may choose etc.).

Better titled "Here is how Russia will do X" vs. "Tulsi is being used by the Russians".

I agree the title is poor considering the content of the article. Considering the support Gabbard has received from the Russian bot army I think it's clear what they're doing.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I agree the title is poor considering the content of the article. Considering the support Gabbard has received from the Russian bot army I think it's clear what they're doing.

I've not read about that but I'll assume there is plenty of evidence the Russian bot army is supporting Tulsi.

So are you saying she is a "plant" ala manchurian candidate or her beliefs/policies so happen to align with what Russia wants therefore Russia is "supporting" her?

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I've not read about that but I'll assume there is plenty of evidence the Russian bot army is supporting Tulsi.

So are you saying she is a "plant" ala manchurian candidate or her beliefs/policies so happen to align with what Russia wants therefore Russia is "supporting" her?

Tulsi Gabbard: White nationalists and Russian propaganda machine throw support behind 2020 candidate | The Independent

NYT also ran an article a couple of weeks ago about her Russian bot support


FWIW, I think she's someone willing to rock the boat in the democratic party so she aligns perfectly with Russia's interest in splitting the Dem vote. I don't think she's actively complicit, but she also doesn't seem to mind the help either.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Was Stein a Russian plant when running for Mass Governor as early as 2002? She's just a lunatic.

By 2016 she either knew what she was involved in or accidentally ending up meeting with Putin, being supported by Putin bots, and running messages mirrored by Trump and the Kremlin. I think it's much more likely than not that she knew what her role was.

[thesloppy]

Maybe I'm completely off-base, but as an occasional third-party voter myself I don't believe practically anybody who votes third-party gives a crusty crap who the candidate is, they're looking at the platform. I couldn't tell you one thing about Jill Stein, to this day.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

Maybe I'm completely off-base, but as an occasional third-party voter myself I don't believe practically anybody who votes third-party gives a crusty crap who the candidate is, they're looking at the platform. I couldn't tell you one thing about Jill Stein, to this day.

I agree here. Gary Johnson is pro-weed,and thats all I know. And thats who I voted for. 20 years from now, when weed is legal I will say what thesloppy just said.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

By 2016 she either knew what she was involved in or accidentally ending up meeting with Putin, being supported by Putin bots, and running messages mirrored by Trump and the Kremlin. I think it's much more likely than not that she knew what her role was.

She's from Lexington, which is next to Concord if you remember your history ... I've heard a few secondhand stories.

Idk how she got a Harvard degree, but she's an anti-Vaxxer who propagates WiFi radiation conspiracy theories. I genuinely think she's just that much of a moonbat she doesn't understand what's going on, and she was running on the Green Party ticket at the state level before Twitter was a thing or Putin had his infrastructure in place.

[Brian Swartz]

I agree with thesloppy too, and I say that as one of the rare exceptions. I think the '16 election and how things went the last several weeks of it, the people who broke for Trump and why, proves it as much as anything ever could.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Rainmaker

As for how to pay it, reduce costs. Most of the industrialized world pays far less than we do for health care and sees better results. There is no reason we can't cut health care costs like they do.

This confuses me, partly because it was followed by four specific proposals. The first three addressed themselves to increasing revenue. None had anything to do with reducing medical costs. The other part is the fact that we foot the bill (rightfully IMO) for a lot of research that benefits the entire world. Where does that fit into this equation?

[Edward64]

I agree this is a better way for Hillary to have approached it.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/22/opini...vic/index.html

It's doubtful that the average American grasps those nuances, instead hearing "Russian asset," with respect to Gabbard, as "working for the Russians." There are better ways Clinton might have explained the issue: focusing on Russia as the bad actor and emphasizing its efforts to interfere with American democracy; pointing out that Russia's bolstering of the Gabbard campaign is one data point in this larger effort (it's certainly not the only one).

That's the route Clinton should have taken. Instead, she turned the spotlight on a relatively inconsequential congresswoman, and opened up an opportunity for right-wing media scavengers to elevate her.

[ISiddiqui]

Of course it turns out Clinton never said the Russian government at all (instead said Republicans were grooming Tulsi to run third party). The New York Times just completely misquoted her:

https://www.rawstory.com/2019/10/new...mpression=true

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[Edward64]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Of course it turns out Clinton never said the Russian government at all (instead said Republicans were grooming Tulsi to run third party). The New York Times just completely misquoted her:

New York Times changes story admitting they misquoted Clinton saying ‘Russians’ were ‘grooming’ Tulsi Gabbard | Raw Story

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Went on NYT website just now and did not see a clarification. Definitely a big miss if true and why did it take so long for the correction?

[ISiddiqui]

Now granted, Russian news sources seem very pleased with Tulsi and she's got Putin's foreign policy goals to a tee. Unwitting accomplice at best.

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[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Went on NYT website just now and did not see a clarification. Definitely a big miss if true and why did it take so long for the correction?

So the strange part is if you actually read the transcript of the podcast, she's totally saying the Republicans are trying to groom Tulsi for a third party run. Not sure why the Times would mess that up.

She says later that Stein and Gabbard are "Russian asset"s which some are reading as they are Russian spies, but that seems a bit out there. You can be an asset to someone without intending to do so. Especially after noting that the aforementioned grooming was not by the Russians.

[ISiddiqui]

Well that's interesting:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/23/polit...ses/index.html

Former Vice President Joe Biden's lead in the race for the Democratic nomination for president has rebounded, and now stands at its widest margin since April, according to a new CNN poll conducted by SSRS.

Biden has the support of 34% of Democratic and Democratic-leaning registered voters, his best showing in CNN polling since just after his campaign's formal launch on April 25.

Sens. Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts and Bernie Sanders of Vermont are about even for second, with 19% and 16%, respectively. Behind them, South Bend, Indiana, Mayor Pete Buttigieg and Sen. Kamala Harris of California each have 6% support, with Sen. Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota and former Texas Congressman Beto O'Rourke each at 3%.

According to 538, the CNN/SSRS poll is an A- poll (so a very respectable one).

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

So the strange part is if you actually read the transcript of the podcast, she's totally saying the Republicans are trying to groom Tulsi for a third party run. Not sure why the Times would mess that up.

She says later that Stein and Gabbard are "Russian asset"s which some are reading as they are Russian spies, but that seems a bit out there. You can be an asset to someone without intending to do so. Especially after noting that the aforementioned grooming was not by the Russians.

I still don't see a clarification in NYT (or at least not on the headlines since I don't have a subscription). I would like to read further, do you have a link on this clarification?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Well that's interesting:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/23/polit...ses/index.html

According to 538, the CNN/SSRS poll is an A- poll (so a very respectable one).

Yay go Biden, he's my first choice right now (assuming he'll pick a younger person as VP). Happy to hear but wonder why he's doing so well?

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I still don't see a clarification in NYT (or at least not on the headlines since I don't have a subscription). I would like to read further, do you have a link on this clarification?

The link I submitted has changed the language. You can see from the screen shots where it used to say "Russian" it is now "Republican". It seems the NYT didn't issue an official correction, but just changed the article.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Yay go Biden, he's my first choice right now (assuming he'll pick a younger person as VP). Happy to hear but wonder why he's doing so well?

Just my opinion, I think its more that Trump/Republicans have been focusing on Biden more than the other candidates, and Dem voters feel like they need to "have his back".

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Well that's interesting:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/23/polit...ses/index.html

According to 538, the CNN/SSRS poll is an A- poll (so a very respectable one).

Kind of weird how different the 2 polls are.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/war...-national-poll

Warren, the progressive senator from Massachusetts, grabs the support of 28 percent of Democrats and independent voters who lean toward the Democrats in a survey released Thursday by Quinnipiac University. Biden stands at 21 percent in the poll, with populist Sen. Bernie Sanders of Vermont at 15 percent.

In Quinnipiac’s previous survey – conducted prior to the Oct. 15 fourth round Democratic debate – Warren had a slight 30-27 percent edge over Biden. But her advantage was within the poll’s margin of error. Sanders, the independent senator from Vermont who’s making his second straight White House bid, was at 11 percent.

Quinnipiac’s new survey showing Warren with a clear lead outside the sampling error stands in stark contrast to a national CNN poll conducted by SSRS released a day earlier that suggested Biden at 34 percent, with Warren a distant second at 19 percent and Sanders at 16 percent. The former vice president’s 15 percentage point lead was his largest since April in CNN polling.

[NobodyHere]

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/24/polit...ign/index.html

Ryan was in my upper tier of candidates but he never got any traction with the masses.

[ISiddiqui]

Definitely possible that the CNN poll is an outlier. Guess we'll have to see how the rest of them line up.

One of the things the Quinnipiac poll did do was qualify Klobuchar for the November debate (she got her last needed 3% in it) making it 9 for those debates.

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[JPhillips]

Tulsi Gabbard, the candidate for people that hate Democrats!

Yes, notably, her supporters generally seem to not like other Democrats very much. https://t.co/SLeRHBGVSD pic.twitter.com/iczxAQmS6B

— John Ray (@johnlray) October 25, 2019

[albionmoonlight]

The Dems are a more fractured coalition party than the GOP, so they are always going to be more vulnerable to third-party challengers.

The GOP has figured this out and (smartly) encourages such things (there was a decent amount of GOP money behind Jill Stein, for example).

The Dems need to figure out how to deal with this issue, because it is not going away. Obama was such a unifying candidate that he gave the party a temporary reprieve. But I think that the typical presidential race is going to have a Nader or a Gabbard in it more often than not.

[JediKooter]

What's the saying? Republican voters fall in line. Democrat voters have to fall in love.

[Arles]

I think the problem is that there is legitimate debate on the democratic side. You can have a more moderate Clinton/Biden get support, as well as a more liberal Sanders/Warren in a primary. On the republican side, you pretty much have to be a social and fiscal conservative to have a chance. IMO, it's a credit to the democratic party that you have such a wide scope of beliefs - but it's also why the losing side will be more apt to support a 3rd part person. If Biden gets the nomination, a lot of Sanders/Warren supports may not vote or go 3rd party. If Warren gets it, you could have some Biden people look more at a 3rd party as well.

I wish republicans would consider more socially moderate candidates as a party, but the money just doesn't seem to be there. I also think the Rush Limbaugh/Hannity/Savage/Ingraham crew instills so much fear in the republican base that they would never think to vote 3rd party because of the risk of a democrat being president (worst thing ever in their mind ). The whole dynamic of how each party looks at this is very interesting to me.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Arles

I wish republicans would consider more socially moderate candidates as a party...

The funny thing is, if you look at the 'Political Spectrum', Biden and Hillary, would be moderate conservative candidates. It's just the conservatives and GOP have gone so far to the right of that spectrum, any policy or candidate to the left of them will be too liberal in their eyes.

[ISiddiqui]

I think that's pretty simplistic, tbh. Hillary Clinton ran a far more left wing platform than Obama ever did. And Biden is for a number of things that no moderate conservative would ever vote for - and was a reliable moderate-left voter as a Senator.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I think that's pretty simplistic, tbh. Hillary Clinton ran a far more left wing platform than Obama ever did. And Biden is for a number of things that no moderate conservative would ever vote for - and was a reliable moderate-left voter as a Senator.

This all screams for breaking the two party system - which I know will never happen. But wouldn't it be great if our choices weren't democrat or republican, but someone in the bernie/warren lane, someone like biden, actual fiscal conservatives which seem to not really exist in the current environment, some tea party person like Cruz, and ... whatever the heck trump is. Making a meaningful choice between them all would feel so much better than the shitshow we have now.

On the dem side I know that I personally have moved very far left over the last few years and feel extremely disconnected from those who are excited/enthusiastic for someone like Biden, we just don't belong in the same party (though of course I will show up for Biden if he does win), and we've seen a number of folks here express a similar disconnect from someone like Warren, some are thinking about electibility, while others are basically the opposite of me, more moderate dems who have serious concerns of their own about the policies of the further left candidates.

That we have to cram all this into two people in the end plus a spoiler or two who will never have a chance in the current system feels terrible

[bob]

I agree with you in principal, but people are throwing a shit fit about the current president only getting 46.1% of the vote. I can't imagine things will be better if the winner is at 30%.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Radii

This all screams for breaking the two party system - which I know will never happen. But wouldn't it be great if our choices weren't democrat or republican, but someone in the bernie/warren lane, someone like biden, actual fiscal conservatives which seem to not really exist in the current environment, some tea party person like Cruz, and ... whatever the heck trump is. Making a meaningful choice between them all would feel so much better than the shitshow we have now.

This would only really ever happen if there was Proportional Representation (or perhaps Single Transferrable Vote could help). A First Past The Post / Presidential system rewards varied interests joining together to create big coalitions.

Imagine if either major US party were to break up into moderate and progressive/conservative factions? They'd be killed by the other party that stayed together.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

This would only really ever happen if there was Proportional Representation (or perhaps Single Transferrable Vote could help). A First Past The Post / Presidential system rewards varied interests joining together to create big coalitions.

Imagine if either major US party were to break up into moderate and progressive/conservative factions? They'd be killed by the other party that stayed together.

Yep, I agree. People in power would be risking their own power to implement this so it'll never happen. Its a nice thought though.

[Edward64]

Looks like she is losing momentum.

Kamala Harris to slash staff, restructure campaign as she hemorrhages cash - POLITICO

Kamala Harris is dramatically restructuring her campaign by redeploying staffers to Iowa and laying off dozens of aides at her Baltimore headquarters, according to campaign sources and a memo obtained Wednesday by POLITICO, as she struggles to resuscitate her beleaguered presidential bid.

The moves come as Harris is hemorrhaging cash and in danger of lacking the resources to mount a competitive bid against better-funded rivals in Iowa. The overhaul will touch nearly every facet of Harris’ operation, with layoffs or re-deployments coming at headquarters, as well as in New Hampshire, Nevada and her home state of California, a Super Tuesday prize that her advisers once viewed as a big asset.
:
:
The major shake-up is the latest strategic maneuver to help rescue a campaign that was still being viewed as a likely early-state juggernaut three months ago after Harris confronted Joe Biden in a debate over school busing. The performance seemed to signal the realization of the promise Harris displayed during her campaign launch before 22,000 spectators in Oakland. Yet it’s been downhill since the summer spike.

[ISiddiqui]

Wonder where her voters will go.

[tarcone]

Then there were 3

[ISiddiqui]

I mean there have either been 3 for months or more than 3 all along... either way Harris dropping doesn't change the calculus much. She had a quick bump that disappeared almost as quickly as it happened.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Wonder where her voters will go.

Probably a fairly even distribution among Biden, Warren, and Mayor Pete.

[Edward64]

A good start for Warren in explaining her Medicare for All. There'll be a lot of pundits picking it apart etc. but good overall to generate & force the discussion. I would like to see a comparison between Sander's and Biden's alternatives.

My guess is this is a losing proposition for her as voters will be scared by the expansiveness of what she is proposing so she will be on the defensive. But kudos to her for laying it out there.

https://medium.com/@teamwarren/endin...s-bf8286b13086

I’m running for President based on a radical idea — calling out what’s broken and speaking plainly about how to fix it.

All my plans start with our shared values. There are two absolute non-negotiables when it comes to health care:

One: No American should ever, ever die or go bankrupt because of health care costs. No more GoFundMe campaigns to pay for care. No more rationing insulin. No more choosing between medicine and groceries.

Two: Every American should be able to see the doctors they need and get their recommended treatments, without having to figure out who is in-network. No for-profit insurance company should be able to stop anyone from seeing the expert or getting the treatment they need.

Health care is a human right, and we need a system that reflects our values. That system is Medicare for All.

[JediKooter]

Biden's support is basically entirely older voters. Among people over 65, he is still the frontrunner. He is supported by only 2 percent of voters under 45.

Interesting, but makes sense to me. I'm definitely under 65 and nothing about Biden really inspires me other than he's not trump and he's not a republican.

[ISiddiqui]

And now Beto O'Rourke is out.

Should help Buttigieg and Harris, I think.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/01/polit...out/index.html

[Edward64]

I like her speechwriter. Think this will resonate with the Democratic base (e.g. won't against Trump as he can claim to do the same).

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/02/polit...ays/index.html

Warren then took a subtle dig at candidates like Biden, Buttigieg and others who are offering more incremental change.

"We win when we offer solutions big enough to touch the problems that are in people's lives. Fear and complacency does not win elections. Hope and courage wins elections," she said, adding, "I'm not running some consultant-driven campaign with some vague ideas that are designed not to offend anyone. I'm running a campaign based on a lifetime of fighting for working families."

"This is a time of crisis. And media pundits, Washington insiders, even some people in our own party don't want to admit it. They think that running some vague campaign that nibbles around the edges is somehow safe," she said.

[Kodos]

A Sliver of the Electorate Could Decide 2020

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Kodos

A Sliver of the Electorate Could Decide 2020

"Steven Basart, 28, is getting his Ph.D in computer science and describes himself as a Democrat. Yet he would consider voting for Mr. Trump, depending on the Democratic nominee."

What in the holy fuck?

And here's the rest of this idiots statement:
If it were Ms. Warren, he’d vote Republican, he said: “I think she’s going too far to the left, which would take our country in a bad direction.”

Mr. Basart is not a fan of Mr. Trump’s personality, but he says it’s overshadowing some of his accomplishments.

“There are plenty of things not to like about Trump, because he says things that are not nice and potentially racist,” said Mr. Basart, who is Latino. “I care somewhat about those things, but I mostly just care about policies, because at the end of the day, that’s what affects people.”

Mr. Basart, I have one question for you...what policies of trump's? He literally has none other than to enrich himself using the office of the president of the united states.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

"Steven Basart, 28, is getting his Ph.D in computer science and describes himself as a Democrat. Yet he would consider voting for Mr. Trump, depending on the Democratic nominee."

What in the holy fuck?

And here's the rest of this idiots statement:
If it were Ms. Warren, he’d vote Republican, he said: “I think she’s going too far to the left, which would take our country in a bad direction.”

Mr. Basart is not a fan of Mr. Trump’s personality, but he says it’s overshadowing some of his accomplishments.

“There are plenty of things not to like about Trump, because he says things that are not nice and potentially racist,” said Mr. Basart, who is Latino. “I care somewhat about those things, but I mostly just care about policies, because at the end of the day, that’s what affects people.”

Mr. Basart, I have one question for you...what policies of trump's? He literally has none other than to enrich himself using the office of the president of the united states.

Dude, Ive been telling you guys this stuff for 2 years now. There is no rhyme or reason. You guys have been putting me down because I have been saying that people will vote for Trump.

Get used to the new reality.