Obama versus McCain (versus the rest)

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by Cringer

Ok, just to point it out clearly since it may not be known since I don't post in this thread much....I am not voting Obama or McCain. I am independent, and will go third party since I don't like either side enough to vote for one of them.


1. Because the media digs something up that you want privacy about, you are going to turn a 180 and give them all they want? Including bringing the kid to the RNC? It doesn't show me they really want to keep it that private, and it does show me they are willing to use it to their advantage if they can. I am pretty sure the media didn't get him a flight out there. Though if they did I will stand corrected. And laugh because that would be funny.

2. Sorry that one rubs you wrong, but that is how I feel, and I would guess I am right about it. I can't see too much quality time set aside for baby while trying to campaign and be a governor at the same time. Of course the 'back to work three days after birth' kind of supports me on that one a little.

1. I can see your point. However, it needs to be the same rules for Obama. If his wife speaks for his campaign, she is fair game. If he puts his family on television (was it Entertainment Tonight?) and in one of the celebrity magazines, they become fair game. Obama can't complain and tell the media to leave his wife alone if she is going to get out front.

2. I just get the double standard feeling off that (if it were a man, it would be no problem) as well as the idea of a working mother. Just my gut feeling.

Off-topic, I really miss Tim Russert.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

Dem talking heads are saying that the swipes at "community organizers" is going to be the next talking point for the Left

If so, I'll go ahead & call that one a mistake beforehand. It isn't going to resonate outside urban areas, I'll bet my hat (and considering how rapidly my hair is vanishing lately, that's a pretty serious risk for me to take).

[SFL Cat]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

There needs to be a corollary to Godwin's Law dealing with marxism.

You'd think a true social and economic liberal would be proud to wear marxism as a badge of honor. Power to the working class, baby!

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

If so, I'll go ahead & call that one a mistake beforehand. It isn't going to resonate outside urban areas, I'll bet my hat (and considering how rapidly my hair is vanishing lately, that's a pretty serious risk for me to take).

Well it may solidify that base, right? And I wonder if a majority of community organizers aren't women? I dont know but Im guessing there.

[sabotai]

As for the vote, what is with the "Others: 5"?

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

Well it may solidify that base, right? And I wonder if a majority of community organizers aren't women? I dont know but Im guessing there.

Solidify that base? I bet they are out of their boots for Obama already.

[SFL Cat]

You mean there is a real job title out there called "Community Organizer?"

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

+1

Imagine how his parents must be feeling...

I would hate to be in their shoes.

[ace1914]

I think Guliani(sp) was the most convincing speaker of the night. He has me questioning my Obama vote....well not really but it was very entertaining if you are pro-McCain or on the edge.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by sabotai

As for the vote, what is with the "Others: 5"?

Ron Paul, I imagine. But the networks would rather not indicate that, lest it give him any attention.

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

1. I can see your point. However, it needs to be the same rules for Obama. If his wife speaks for his campaign, she is fair game. If he puts his family on television (was it Entertainment Tonight?) and in one of the celebrity magazines, they become fair game. Obama can't complain and tell the media to leave his wife alone if she is going to get out front.

2. I just get the double standard feeling off that (if it were a man, it would be no problem) as well as the idea of a working mother. Just my gut feeling.

Off-topic, I really miss Tim Russert.

1. No problem from me there. Obama's wife is more fair game even to me, because she would be the first lady.

2. Perhaps there is. If you tell me the dad stays at home with the kid and is the primary care taker of that child though, I would not say a thing about her. If all that guy does is race a snowmobile every now and then perhaps that is true and good for them. I just get a vibe that isn't exactly how things are, and if there is no nanny then big sis/soon to be mom has already done a lot of child care in her days.

[Young Drachma]

Hit & Run: 2008 Convention > Palin: Long on 'tude, Short on Specifics - Reason Magazine

From Reason's Matt Welch

As an instance of political theater, I think just about anybody would agree that Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin's speech was pretty impressive. As Nina Easton of Fortune put it (somewhat regretfully) on Fox News Channel, "It was a home run in the first inning." It was a well-delivered, red-meat speech, chock full o' attacks on Barack Obama and Democrats in general.

For me, the lacuna at the heart of it all, a gigantic prolapsed valve big enough to punch your fist through, was the inability of the GOP to spell out exactly what John McCain's great legislative accomplishments were/are. Palin kept intoning that McCain was a great American, apart form the torture he endured during the Vietnam War. But she wouldn't quite spell out what his massive successes were. McCain-Feingold? Eh, not exactly. Earmark reform? Mebbe (except for the fact that Alaska pulls in much more dough than it sends to D.C.). He was against the Medicare prescription drug benefit—a totally awful and unnecessary expansion of the welfare state. But she didn't call that out (which makes sense, given that a Republican president pushed the bejeezus out of it all and it seemed like the average age in the RNC hall was about 70 years old).

I've got to admit that, as someone who doesn't care for Dem-Rep politics, I like Palin as a character. She's on a totally different script than any of us are used to; she's white trash in the same way Angelina Jolie is (and no wonder she scares the hell out of so many people). I want to think there's some latent libertarianism in her shtick, though I'm troubled by her bullshit backtracking on earmarks, the Bridge To Nowhere, you name it.

But in the end, the VP doesn't matter. Sen. Joe Biden is awful on virtually every level—he's a drug warrior to the max and a situational hawk and peacenik. It's the people at the top of the ticket who cause the most problems. And while I worry about Obama's willingness to raise taxes, increase regulations, and wage indiscriminate wars (that a Democratic Congress will support, as they did under Bill Clinton), I worry just as much about someone like John McCain, who for all the reasons Matt Welch details in his indispensable book details, who would be just as rotten.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Cringer

I just get a vibe that isn't exactly how things are, and if there is no nanny then big sis/soon to be mom has already done a lot of child care in her days.

Yup.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Ron Paul, I imagine. But the networks would rather not indicate that, lest it give him any attention.

Of course...

[Jon]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

If so, I'll go ahead & call that one a mistake beforehand. It isn't going to resonate outside urban areas, I'll bet my hat (and considering how rapidly my hair is vanishing lately, that's a pretty serious risk for me to take).

I have to say that I was shocked by the whole mocking of community organizers. Community organizations are the entities that provide the services the Republicans don't want government to provide. Most of these are affiliated with churches. That's why Obama and Bush aren't that too far off on faith-based grants.

I thought her speech was good to fire up the base--both the Republican and Democrats. Problem is that if it comes down to a battle of the bases, and Dems get their turnout, then they win. I don't think her speech did much to get independent voters.

I thought she had some good attack lines, and I'm an Obama supporter, but she kept going at it. I agree with other commentators that said she was getting very personal in her attacks. I don't think that's a way to gain new voters.

Also, I think people will see how disingenuous to while about people attacking you on legitimate things (but claiming it's one illegitimate thing) and then attacking back with ten times the force. I don't think that's going to work either.

[ISiddiqui]

And Harry Reid just referred to Palin's speech as "shrill"

REALLY?! Are you freaking kidding me, Reid?! Hillary Clinton is just waiting to take the Senate Majority Leader from your ass.

[ace1914]

Originally Posted by Jon

I have to say that I was shocked by the whole mocking of community organizers. Community organizations are the entities that provide the services the Republicans don't want government to provide. Most of these are affiliated with churches. That's why Obama and Bush aren't that too far off on faith-based grants.

I thought her speech was good to fire up the base--both the Republican and Democrats. Problem is that if it comes down to a battle of the bases, and Dems get their turnout, then they win. I don't think her speech did much to get independent voters.

I thought she had some good attack lines, and I'm an Obama supporter, but she kept going at it. I agree with other commentators that said she was getting very personal in her attacks. I don't think that's a way to gain new voters.

She didn't write that part of the speech. Its nothing less than expected and probably not the true Sarah Palin according to her 80+% approval rating in Alaska. But hey, you do what you gotta do.

[SFL Cat]

I thought she had some good attack lines, and I'm an Obama supporter, but she kept going at it. I agree with other commentators that said she was getting very personal in her attacks. I don't think that's a way to gain new voters.

Guess we'll find out in November. I think she will have a big appeal in small towns across flyover country...and that's where Bush won the last election.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by Jon

I have to say that I was shocked by the whole mocking of community organizers. Community organizations are the entities that provide the services the Republicans don't want government to provide. Most of these are affiliated with churches. That's why Obama and Bush aren't that too far off on faith-based grants.

yes, SFL, in some cities community organizer and community help organizations, including churches, are a large source of outreach. I dont know if it's the same in all cities over a certain pop. but in this one there are certain, Burroughs, lets call them, that have very important community organizers, who sometimes evolve into running for local office(s). Looking back at the laughter about the position and the mocking tone, I can imagine there were some households that were fired up for the wrong reasons, there. However, that is admittedly not who the speech was aimed at and therefore Im not sure that the reaction of that group is of much, iff any, concern.

[SFL Cat]

Didn't that used to be called community volunteer work? I didn't know it had evolved into a full-time position.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

You'd think a true social and economic liberal would be proud to wear marxism as a badge of honor. Power to the working class, baby!

I realize we're scraping the bottom of the barrel with you, but you do know what a classic economic liberal is, right?

[Flasch186]

who do you think organizes the places to go and things to do? Just handing the homeless guy on the corner a dollar isn't what we're talking about here. The organizations that get grants, how do you think they get those grants...the applications and phone calls dont happen on their own, donations dont come in on their own, etc. Its more than you can know, as are most jobs from the outside looking in....

[Jon]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

Guess we'll find out in November. I think she will have a big appeal in small towns across flyover country...and that's where Bush won the last election.

That goes to my point about it being a turnout election. If John McCain's strategy is to win like Bush did in 2004, I think he loses. The electorate is not the same now as it was then with the high odds that certain groups who have low turnout rates will have higher turnouts.

[Galaxy]

Just curious, do you see those offended by the community organizers (I think they try to demonstrate what his experience was for the commander-in-chief job; however, they should have done better with that) or involved, McCain/Palin voters anyways?

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by ace1914

I think Guliani(sp) was the most convincing speaker of the night. He has me questioning my Obama vote....well not really but it was very entertaining if you are pro-McCain or on the edge.

Giuliani did a masterful job of painting Obama’s ineptitude on the Russian invasion of Georgia, noting Obama’s initial moral equivalency between the two nations, then Obama issuing a statement that the U.N. Security Council would be the appropriate vehicle, then changing his mind again when he was informed that Russia has veto power, and finally changing his position three days later to agree with McCain’s initial position.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Just curious, do you see those offended by the community organizers (I think they try to demonstrate what his experience was for the commander-in-chief job; however, they should have done better with that) or involved, McCain/Palin voters anyways?

no, not really....BUT I wonder how many are women and they were courting the Hillary disenfranchised vote (for a while anyways).

[SFL Cat]

Originally Posted by Jon

That goes to my point about it being a turnout election. If John McCain's strategy is to win like Bush did in 2004, I think he loses. The electorate is not the same now as it was then with the high odds that certain groups who have low turnout rates will have higher turnouts.

I still think the election is Obama's to lose, but I've got to hand it to whoever McCain's new handlers are...they've played things perfectly and given someone who I didn't think had a chance in hell to win, a 50-50 shot.

[Jon]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

Didn't that used to be called community volunteer work? I didn't know it had evolved into a full-time position.

It depends on the community. Some places it is volunteer work. The work I do in my community, as a former community organizer, was volunteer in nature. Some organizers are full-time paid jobs (well "paid," they don't make much money). But they do provide valuable services to the community.

Like Flasch said, it's not simply handing a guy on the street corner a dollar. It's helping people find jobs, helping people get medical care, keeping kids in school, ensuring that proper legal services are provided to those that need it. It's organizing members of the community so that they can help themselves. And, most of the time, it's not a governmental agency.

Frankly, whether you agree with Obama or not, there was something noble in his initial decision to work as a community organizer. It's thankless work that is filled with limited success.

Now, maybe I'm taking it too personally, but the dissing of community organizing was offensive. An organizer does have responsibilities. He/she can't simply hire an administrator to do the work for you. An organizer can't fire people just because they disagree with you. An organizer can't work to ban books. And they do exist in towns large or small.

(

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

I still think the election is Obama's to lose, but I've got to hand it to whoever McCain's new handlers are...they've played things perfectly and given someone who I didn't think had a chance in hell to win, a 50-50 shot.

Obama is counting on first time voters to win this election, and to quote James Carville from a few years ago, "What do you call a candidate who is counting on first time voters? A loser."

[Grammaticus]

Originally Posted by mauboy1

Where ever he goes and whoever is listening, john mccain is the same man...?

I guess I didn't get that.

He (McCain) expresses the same views wether he is in scranton or San Francisco..........Does that help?


In general, this one (Palin) is TROUBLE for the opposition. She was spot on all the way through with one little stutter when talking about energy in Alaska.

Somebody mentioned just speaking to the base. Definately did that, but also hit issues on all the important swing states where, if picked up could mean a victory.

For somebody that was in a lot of heat this past week, she really stepped up and delivered with poise under pressure, very good speaker.

[SFL Cat]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

who do you think organizes the places to go and things to do? Just handing the homeless guy on the corner a dollar isn't what we're talking about here. The organizations that get grants, how do you think they get those grants...the applications and phone calls dont happen on their own, donations dont come in on their own, etc. Its more than you can know, as are most jobs from the outside looking in....

So you're saying as an organizer, Obama wrote grant proposals and made phone calls and collected donations, correct?

[SFL Cat]

Originally Posted by Jon

It depends on the community. Some places it is volunteer work. The work I do in my community, as a former community organizer, was volunteer in nature. Some organizers are full-time paid jobs (well "paid," they don't make much money). But they do provide valuable services to the community.

Like Flasch said, it's not simply handing a guy on the street corner a dollar. It's helping people find jobs, helping people get medical care, keeping kids in school, ensuring that proper legal services are provided to those that need it. It's organizing members of the community so that they can help themselves. And, most of the time, it's not a governmental agency.

Frankly, whether you agree with Obama or not, there was something noble in his initial decision to work as a community organizer. It's thankless work that is filled with limited success.

Now, maybe I'm taking it too personally, but the dissing of community organizing was offensive. An organizer does have responsibilities. He/she can't simply hire an administrator to do the work for you. An organizer can't fire people just because they disagree with you. An organizer can't work to ban books. And they do exist in towns large or small.

(

I suppose I've known several "community organizers" then, but it was all volunteer work. Guess I've never lived in a place big enough where they needed someone doing it full-time and getting paid for it.

[ace1914]

Originally Posted by Jon

It depends on the community. Some places it is volunteer work. The work I do in my community, as a former community organizer, was volunteer in nature. Some organizers are full-time paid jobs (well "paid," they don't make much money). But they do provide valuable services to the community.

Like Flasch said, it's not simply handing a guy on the street corner a dollar. It's helping people find jobs, helping people get medical care, keeping kids in school, ensuring that proper legal services are provided to those that need it. It's organizing members of the community so that they can help themselves. And, most of the time, it's not a governmental agency.

Frankly, whether you agree with Obama or not, there was something noble in his initial decision to work as a community organizer. It's thankless work that is filled with limited success.

Now, maybe I'm taking it too personally, but the dissing of community organizing was offensive. An organizer does have responsibilities. He/she can't simply hire an administrator to do the work for you. An organizer can't fire people just because they disagree with you. An organizer can't work to ban books. And they do exist in towns large or small.

(

You are fighting a losing battle man. The conventional thought is now tgat the all-mighty "experience" recently changed to "executive experience" is somehow a great gauge for performance in the white house.

[Jon]

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

He (McCain) expresses the same views wether he is in scranton or San Francisco..........Does that help?


In general, this one (Palin) is TROUBLE for the opposition. She was spot on all the way through with one little stutter when talking about energy in Alaska.

Somebody mentioned just speaking to the base. Definately did that, but also hit issues on all the important swing states where, if picked up could mean a victory.

For somebody that was in a lot of heat this past week, she really stepped up and delivered with poise under pressure, very good speaker.

I'm not entirely sure how much trouble she is for the opposition if the media continues its vetting. She lied about being against the "Bridge to Nowhere." She was for it before she was against it. In fact, she even kept the money after she was against it.

She also hired one of Jack Abramoff's lobbyists to make lobbying trips to DC for, you guessed it, earmarks. She herself made the trip. In fact, Alaska was listed frequently on the McCain Pork list.

Her current ethics troubles continue to be a political nuisance.

With her aggressive attacks, she basically opens the doors for the dems to take the gloves off.

And I'm still not sure she answered people's questions regarding her ability to be vice-president (or even if she knows what the job entails).

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by path12

Did I really see Romney railing against the Eastern elitists? Seriously?

How the fuck did people in Massachusetts elect this asshole in the first place?

[ace1914]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

I suppose I've known several "community organizers" then, but it was all volunteer work. Guess I've never lived in a place big enough where they needed someone doing it full-time and getting paid for it.

American Red Cross.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Jas_lov

Who cares about budgets and deficits, they made Levi shave his head! Bristol and Levi do look like a happy couple and Cindy McCain looks good in puke green.

Yeah ole Levi looks really "happy" up there like any one involved in a shotgun (literally) wedding is. His little sexual escapades get him a 17 year old wife, new born baby and a job scraping crab guts off his future father-in-laws fishing boat in the middle of the Bering Strait for the next 50 years. Now, that is the type message that needs to be made into an ad to reduce unwanted teenage pregnancies

[SFL Cat]

Originally Posted by ace1914

American Red Cross.

good point. I guess I think of them as more of a national organization rather than a local one, even though they do a lot of local blood drives in my community.

I guess the United Way too. Even though there's been a lot of controversy about how its funds are distributed and how much some people on staff make.

[Jon]

Originally Posted by ace1914

American Red Cross.

Good example. Community organizers are everywhere, and not just in the urban communities. In many places they are the difference for some people between being on the street, having lights, having a job, being thrown out of school, etc.

(As you can see, I'm riled up. I'm usually a lurker, but this just got to me. I haven't been this angry at a convention speech since Pat Buchanan's address in 1992).

As for Rudy, I thought he kept Palin's speech from being more powerful, as they had to skip the video.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Galaril

How the fuck did people in Massachusetts elect this asshole in the first place?

He was a different guy in MA - the kind of guy who was my top choice for President - intelligent, wonky, pragmatic rather than idiotic. Than he decided to take to the extreme and run from the Right as some sort of new age messiah - and got his ass kicked. Now he comes across as an asshole.

PS, Any GOP'er who complains about liberals talking about "bitter" people should have some problems with bitching about "east coast liberals".

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I think it's pretty brilliant to tell you the truth, and I'd bet that Obama's camp offered it as a one-night-only opportunity to Fox News.

If you ain't cheatin' you ain't tryin', you know that by now

100% agree it is a good move and shows he is willing to talk to the other side unlike McCain who has canceled two scheduled interviews on CNN. And I think that maybe what Obama is aimimg to show the swing voters he is willing to talk even to on the conservative rights "Politburo" channel Fox.

[SFL Cat]

Originally Posted by Galaril

Yeah ole Levi looks really "happy" up there like any one involved in a shotgun (literally) wedding is. His little sexual escapades get him a 17 year old wife, new born baby and a job scraping crab guts off his future father-in-laws fishing boat in the middle of the Bering Strait for the next 50 years. Now, that is the type message that needs to be made into an ad to reduce unwanted teenage pregnancies

Sounds like a good abstinence commercial to me...unless you happen to be a fan of 'The Deadliest Catch.'

[ace1914]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

good point. I guess I think of them as more of a national organization rather than a local one, even though they do a lot of local blood drives in my community.

I guess the United Way too. Even though there's been a lot of controversy about how its funds are distributed and how much some people on staff make.

I'm guessing that's sarcasm. I'm just pointing out that there are many organizations that are very helpful and their workers get paid, albeit less than they would likely get in the private sector.

It sucks when you are penalized for being too socially active and not focusing enough on yourself.

[SFL Cat]

Nope...big fan of the Red Cross

Used to be a volunteer and donor for the United Way too...but quit after some of organizations top officers' questionable practices came to light. dola edit - plus, I never felt entirely comfortable about how some local companies, who were always big donors, seemed to put a lot of pressure on their employees to donate.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

It's a very effective speech for the goal of playing to the right. The moderates might be a bit more put off, tho. She's gotten off some really nice zingers and played the "I'm a down home mom" thing well but sheneeds to lay off it soon or look like someone who just rolled off the PTA.

Personally, I can't stand her, tho- sounds like a complete and total asshole (or bitch, if you prefer the gender term).

SI

Yes, to me and my wife she came off as being very condescending, smug, and negative. Yes, a real bitch. I guess the Dems can lay into her as much as they want since she can take a punch and apparently throw one to.

[Grammaticus]

Originally Posted by Jon

I'm not entirely sure how much trouble she is for the opposition if the media continues its vetting. She lied about being against the "Bridge to Nowhere." She was for it before she was against it. In fact, she even kept the money after she was against it.

She also hired one of Jack Abramoff's lobbyists to make lobbying trips to DC for, you guessed it, earmarks. She herself made the trip. In fact, Alaska was listed frequently on the McCain Pork list.

Her current ethics troubles continue to be a political nuisance.

With her aggressive attacks, she basically opens the doors for the dems to take the gloves off.

And I'm still not sure she answered people's questions regarding her ability to be vice-president (or even if she knows what the job entails).

I don't see the bridge to nowhere being an issue with anyone but staunch liberals. From what I have read, she supported the idea of a bridge to the remote islands as a potential infrastructure improvement. Once things got going, it didn't equate to a good idea. Hence the line "about that bridge to nowhere, thanks, but no thanks". About the keeping the money part, tell us more about that. Did she pocket some cash? Did money go into a general fund? Did something happen outside of the norm?

Originally Posted by ace1914

American Red Cross.

This is not a community organizer. This is a major national not for profit charity.

Community Organizers are different. If interested, just google and read up on it. There is a lot of good info out there. Sure it is a lot of volunteer based work and generally trying to organize commuinities like neighborhoods, etc. to solve common problems versus individuals trying to solve problems independently.

[ace1914]

Originally Posted by Jon

Good example. Community organizers are everywhere, and not just in the urban communities. In many places they are the difference for some people between being on the street, having lights, having a job, being thrown out of school, etc.

(As you can see, I'm riled up. I'm usually a lurker, but this just got to me. I haven't been this angry at a convention speech since Pat Buchanan's address in 1992).

As for Rudy, I thought he kept Palin's speech from being more powerful, as they had to skip the video.

I understand. In college, I probably did more community service in 5 years than most people do in their entire lifetime. Considered joining the Peace Corps but then 9-11 hit and had me afraid to leave the US. I guess that's part of Obama's appeal for me. I connect with most of his .....young, smart kid, does some stupid stuff, goes to college, gets tough degree, sees people much worse off and wanted to help. He went one way, I sometimes wish I did(until I see that direct deposit 2 times/month).

[Grammaticus]

Originally Posted by Galaril

100% agree it is a good move and shows he is willing to talk to the other side unlike McCain who has canceled two scheduled interviews on CNN. And I think that maybe what Obama is aimimg to show the swing voters he is willing to talk even to on the conservative rights "Politburo" channel Fox.

I think it is great he is going to talk to Bill O'reilly. The timing is the only reason they are getting him anyway. Why complain abou it? It may be the last chance anyone gets to really press him with some decent / difficult questions.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

+1

That baby is a prop. Independent woman or not...all we have to go on is what we see and what we see, ain't good.

My wife agrees. She had commented that she felt that palin was selfish to have a baby at 44 thus raising the chance of complecations. And yes the baby is a total prop very sad actually.

[SFL Cat]

Holy sh*t! Not like there is anything judgmental here...