Werewolf Forum?

[Abe Sargent]

We needed a seperate forum for the one or two WW posts every two weeks?

[Blade6119]

My PM to skydog, followed by his response, which i am now replying to.

Originally Posted by Blade6119
I dont agree with the decision to move WW to a seperate forum, due to the fact it has only 2 threads active at a time. Im willing to accept it though if you felt it more obtrusive then other items like the hot or not polls or political threads. I would like an explanation why the new forum is non-post count enabled though, as i cannot think of a good reason. As always, im trying to be respectful to you and voicing my complaint in private. I would appreciate similar respect in return, instead of jokes like the one you posted in reply to me in the thread.

-------------------------------------------------
Well, you complained in public...

I moved them because the #1 complaint I've received is about the Werewolf threads, and now that we've upgraded to vbulletin 3.6.0, it is (obviously) *very* easy to mass-move threads after doing a search. I'd never done it before now because it would have been a pain to move all of the threads. I would have had to do it one-by-one in the past. The post counts were taken down because they were skewing post counts tremendously.

[BrianD]

I know I didn't vote for this.

[Lorena]

We have like 1 thread a week, how in the hell is this a nuisance? C'mon man.

[BrianD]

How are they skewing post counts? Is there some actual use for the numbers other than a vanity status thing?

[Alan T]

I could care less if it counts post counts or not. I've been around these forums for long enough most people at least know me from either the early ootp days, or whatever. The extra clicks just means I am less likely to keep up with all the random topics in general discussion is all, so no big deal to me either.

Only concern I have is when it comes to advertising new games, many people might not check in here regularly if they aren't involved in the new game. Might be slower to get people to join games (longer time between games) because of this.

[kingfc22]

What?! People lost posts...

[GoldenEagle]

I am not sure what has gotten into Skydog, but he has made some very poor moderation decisions lately.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

My PM to skydog, followed by his response, which i am now replying to.

Originally Posted by Blade6119
I dont agree with the decision to move WW to a seperate forum, due to the fact it has only 2 threads active at a time. Im willing to accept it though if you felt it more obtrusive then other items like the hot or not polls or political threads. I would like an explanation why the new forum is non-post count enabled though, as i cannot think of a good reason. As always, im trying to be respectful to you and voicing my complaint in private. I would appreciate similar respect in return, instead of jokes like the one you posted in reply to me in the thread.

-------------------------------------------------
Well, you complained in public...

I moved them because the #1 complaint I've received is about the Werewolf threads, and now that we've upgraded to vbulletin 3.6.0, it is (obviously) *very* easy to mass-move threads after doing a search. I'd never done it before now because it would have been a pain to move all of the threads. I would have had to do it one-by-one in the past. The post counts were taken down because they were skewing post counts tremendously.

My reply:

So threads like maximum football, PING:drunk guy, or Can child molesters be called hot? should all be moved as well, right? I would argue all of those, as well as threads i mentioned like the hot or nots or the countless political threads skew post counts as well.

I feel that the reason this action has occured is rather unjust. Firstly, I dont see how at most 2 threads are active at a time. This week alone i counted 14 hot or not threads. So i think removing it for being annoying is something that is both inappropriate use of power as well as quite hypocritical. I know when i was still a mod we discussed creating a WW forum, as well as a political fourm. Both ideas were shot down, rather soundly. So i would like to know what has changed in that regard. Was this idea voted on, or made as an executive decision?

I think saying that WW is not a good enough thread to earn posts, while threads like maximum football and others are, is one of the most baffling statements you have ever made. We havent always been friends, but i have agreed with most of your actions(including about me) until now.

Your argument is post counts are being skewed, so now we have to go remove threads like maximum football which are solely for post skewing, and edit all the multi-player fof and hattrick forums to non-post count after taking all threads out of GD that skew posts. Secondly, we have to create forums for any thread people complain about.

I dont feel like this is a sound decision, but am willing to hear both sides to this argument. I dont agree with it being seperated, but am OK with it. The post count decision throws me for a total loop, as i dont see how WW is worse then the other threads mentioned.

[hoopsguy]

I'm pretty sure I care less about post counts that people complaining about Werewolf threads. Seriously, why do people consider this to be a status symbol?

If you invest any time around here you figure out which people are worth listening to and which ones probably are not - very little correlation with post counts.

I would post this in the main forum, but people might get the idea that I'm trying to get my post count back up

[WVUFAN]

I think Molson got it right, and it's a shame:

Originally Posted by molson

This is what I don't get. At any given time, there's approximately 1 WW thread out of 50 (depending on your settings I guess) on the main page. What's the big deal? Segregation = the death of that particular topic.

This is not a good decision.

[Blade6119]

And skydog says me sharing my PM is the end of the discussion. Its a shame, i really was trying to have an honest discussion with him.

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

And skydog says me sharing my PM is the end of the discussion. Its a shame, i really was trying to have an honest discussion with him.

Why is this a secret?

Sigh.

[wade moore]

I won't discuss the mod decision at all, but...

I find it VERY amusing that blade simulataneously says that post counts don't matter and then laments ad-naseum that this forum does not count posts.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

Why is this a secret?

Sigh.

In my book, posting a PM publicly without asking the person first is ALWAYS in poor form. It's called a private message for a reason.

[st.cronin]

I don't care at all about post count. I think we might want to think about a different way of planning games, though. I don't think we should wait til this game ends to start sign ups for the next game, for example.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by wade moore

I won't discuss the mod decision at all, but...

I find it VERY amusing that blade simulataneously says that post counts don't matter and then laments ad-naseum that this forum does not count posts.

I care that i lost post counts, where did i say that post counts dont matter?

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by wade moore

In my book, posting a PM publicly without asking the person first is ALWAYS in poor form. It's called a private message for a reason.

Then have skydog publicly discuss his reasons. He has not, only making a joke for why he did it. Is that not poor form?

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by wade moore

In my book, posting a PM publicly without asking the person first is ALWAYS in poor form. It's called a private message for a reason.

Normally, you're right, but he's said before that he has a tendency to respond to private PM's in a discussion like this, but there's a more than a few people who want to know why he did this with absolutely no warning or reason, and I think what Blade was trying to do at least tell everyone what Skydog was thinking, since he seems to be unwilling to do it himself.

When you make a fairly radical change like this, you should justify it, and he has not done it. The way it sounds now is he has no interest in rationalizing it outside of "I don't like WW threads", and has a fit when someone tries to create an avenue of discussion with him.

Who actually OWNS this board, btw? That's not a sarcastic question, it's a real one. Does Skydog have ownership of it, or is he the main moderator, with the board being owned by someone else?

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by wade moore

In my book, posting a PM publicly without asking the person first is ALWAYS in poor form. It's called a private message for a reason.

Wouldn't you say it is Blade's right to post his own PM, if that is what he wishes to do? Who are you to tell him that he can't post his own message?

However, posting SkyDog's resposne was very poor form, that I agree compeltely.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

I care that i lost post counts, where did i say that post counts dont matter?

My apologies, I thought Alan T's post was by you, not Alan.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

I care that i lost post counts, where did i say that post counts dont matter?

I think it was Hoops and I who said we didn't care about post counts, not Blade.

Either way though, I find forum politics utterly boring and juvenile in general, so won't get involved in this particular topic either. I can see why this topic was moved into a seperate forum, however I don't see why it was singled out over other all the other more annoying and louder topics out there.

Without knowing any background in why this decision was made, it probably was just the case of petty people complaining about post counts and pointing to WW threads with 3 thousand replies moreso than the amount of volume of threads (like the hot or not threads).

If I had to guess, it was a decision based on people being adolescent about a meaningless thing like post counts that made this decision happen in the first place. Either way, it seems like a shortsighted decision, but I'm not really going to get involved.

I'm just worried about how to keep these going without people checking into these forums every day. Without kicking us off the board, this is as close as possible to saying they don't want these threads without coming out and saying it.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

Normally, you're right, but he's said before that he has a tendency to respond to private PM's in a discussion like this, but there's a more than a few people who want to know why he did this with absolutely no warning or reason, and I think what Blade was trying to do at least tell everyone what Skydog was thinking, since he seems to be unwilling to do it himself.

When you make a fairly radical change like this, you should justify it, and he has not done it. The way it sounds now is he has no interest in rationalizing it outside of "I don't like WW threads", and has a fit when someone tries to create an avenue of discussion with him.

I'm not argueing the merit or lack of merit of the forum change. Like I said, I am not commenting on that. Your points have nothing to do with the validity of posting SD's PM. Post here all that you want that you want SD to answer your questions, but posting his PM is wrong and you're just trying to justify it because you don't like his answer.

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

Who actually OWNS this board, btw? That's not a sarcastic question, it's a real one. Does Skydog have ownership of it, or is he the main moderator, with the board being owned by someone else?

SkyDog owns the board.

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Wouldn't you say it is Blade's right to post his own PM, if that is what he wishes to do? Who are you to tell him that he can't post his own message?

However, posting SkyDog's resposne was very poor form, that I agree compeltely.

That's what I'm trying to say.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by wade moore

I'm not argueing the merit or lack of merit of the forum change. Like I said, I am not commenting on that. Your points have nothing to do with the validity of posting SD's PM. Post here all that you want that you want SD to answer your questions, but posting his PM is wrong and you're just trying to justify it because you don't like his answer.

I sent this PM to skydog, to which i dont expect a reply. I was wrong to post his PM, and i apologized to him. I do believe though that this decision is one that should be reconsidered, and at the very least skydog needs to give some honest reasons in public:


I Thats fine, but i feel your views need to be shared. Im happy to delete those posts if you will share you honest views in public. So far, the only reason you have openly stated was a joke. If you dont want me to share your views, thats alright. But the forum deserves reasoning for why such a move took place, other then "i like it when people lose posts"

Sorry if you feel i betrayed your trust, in the future i will ensure to not posts your thoughts in public.

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I'm just worried about how to keep these going without people checking into these forums every day. Without kicking us off the board, this is as close as possible to saying they don't want these threads without coming out and saying it.

He evidentally doesn't want "these WW people" on the board whereas people who talk about his little high school (which is not FOF related) or Hot or Not threads (which are not FOF related) or any other non FOF related discussions are perfectly cool.

I've played in a grand total of 2 1/2 WW games. The others I skip over, but I, nor any RATIONAL person would ever complain that they exist. They're clearly noted, have absolutely no bearing on other posts.

Oh, and since post count seems to be a rationale on how "far you can go" before getting boxed/banned, it is important.

After all, you can get away with being an "asshat" if you have a 3,000 post count, but not if you have a 200. Makes it more than just a status symbol.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by wade moore

SkyDog owns the board.

Skydog paid for some of it(i dont know exact #s), but i remember other members sending money in as well. So he owns it, but so do others. I was not one of those people, so im not trying to take any credit.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

Skydog paid for some of it(i dont know exact #s), but i remember other members sending money in as well. So he owns it, but so do others. I was not one of those people, so im not trying to take any credit.

SkyDog owns the board. Blackadar used to own the board and when he left he gave it to SkyDog.

This has nothing to do with $$$.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

After all, you can get away with being an "asshat" if you have a 3,000 post count, but not if you have a 200. Makes it more than just a status symbol.

[Alan T]

Here is a humble suggestion on my part.. I know it won't make everyone happy since many people really care strongly about their post counts, but it hopefully will make the majority of people happy..

- WW games will be run in this forum where post counts are turned off therefore keeping those who are actually complaining about something such as player X's post count is inflated due to WW games happy.

- WW game announcements and sign up threads as well as new player needed threads be allowed to be posted in the general discussion section.. This will allow the visibility to new games or when new players are needed to be done in a non-annoying manner, and keep our ability to enjoy playing these games going.


I know that this doesn't address some of the smaller complaints such as too many clicks or the segregation issues, but could this at least be a happy middle compromise?

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by wade moore

I'm not argueing the merit or lack of merit of the forum change. Like I said, I am not commenting on that. Your points have nothing to do with the validity of posting SD's PM. Post here all that you want that you want SD to answer your questions, but posting his PM is wrong and you're just trying to justify it because you don't like his answer.

Well, without Blade posting his PM, we don't even know his answer. That's what I'm trying to say.

The rest of it I'll take to PM. (No, I won't post your PM. )

SkyDog owns the board.

Ok.

[Abe Sargent]

I think it was a very poor decision unless I know SkyDog's total reasons. I am sending a pm to him, though, because he deserves that much, I feel.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by wade moore

SkyDog owns the board. Blackadar used to own the board and when he left he gave it to SkyDog.

This has nothing to do with $$$.

Your right, it has to do with a decision that has been explained in public by a one line joke. Wade, im well aware of your dislike for me. This discussion is about an executive decision made that all but destroys WW in the long run, opens up countless problems now that threads can be deemed unworthy of post counts, and that has not been explained in any serious mannor in public.

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by wade moore

You do know this is what Skydog himself has said in the past, right? That people who have posted more have more leeway than those who have not.

I'd be happy to find those posts and paste them here, if you like. Not trying to argue, but by the rolling eyes icon it seems you don't believe me.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

Oh, and since post count seems to be a rationale on how "far you can go" before getting boxed/banned, it is important.

I'm not too worried about this reasoning, since in my time on this board, I am pretty sure that i have never done anything to cause someone to consider to box or ban me. (unless rooting against the Georgia Bulldogs is one of those type of infractions). I fully assume that any "mistake" I may make in the future will be judged based on my long standing in this community and what I have provided in the past to both FoF games as well as OOTP games (plus side content such as WW threads).

I would hope that there can be some happy medium met though on this so at least. I'm assuming if the people making these decisions are doing so rationally they will hopefully consider some compromise at least.

[Abe Sargent]

Hmpf

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

Your right, it has to do with a decision that has been explained in public by a one line joke. Wade, im well aware of your dislike for me. This discussion is about an executive decision made that all but destroys WW in the long run, opens up countless problems now that threads can be deemed unworthy of post counts, and that has not been explained in any serious mannor in public.

First off, you totally misinterpreted my post. I was saying that the ownership of the board has nothing to do with $$$, not this decision.

Second of all, I don't know what you're talking about with your "im well aware of your dislike for me.". I'm actually very neutral towards you, there are people around here that I have dislike for (which I think I hide for the most part), but you are not one of them.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

You do know this is what Skydog himself has said in the past, right? That people who have posted more have more leeway than those who have not.

I'd be happy to find those posts and paste them here, if you like. Not trying to argue, but by the rolling eyes icon it seems you don't believe me.

The only statements that I'm aware of revolve around brand new people on the board. These assertions that there is some sort of sliding scale based on post count is a FranklinNoble conspiracy that is simply not true. The only statements have been that someone who is relatively new and has almost all of their activity revolving around a controversial behavior will be viewed differently than someone who has been involved in many conversations and some small portion is controversial.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by wade moore

there are people around here that I have dislike for (which I think I hide for the most part), but you are not one of them.

HE HATES ME!

[Kodos]

Maybe we can have a regular post count and a special werewolf post count.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Here is a humble suggestion on my part.. I know it won't make everyone happy since many people really care strongly about their post counts, but it hopefully will make the majority of people happy..

- WW games will be run in this forum where post counts are turned off therefore keeping those who are actually complaining about something such as player X's post count is inflated due to WW games happy.

- WW game announcements and sign up threads as well as new player needed threads be allowed to be posted in the general discussion section.. This will allow the visibility to new games or when new players are needed to be done in a non-annoying manner, and keep our ability to enjoy playing these games going.


I know that this doesn't address some of the smaller complaints such as too many clicks or the segregation issues, but could this at least be a happy middle compromise?

Done. Feel free to post players needed and game announcements in GD.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by wade moore

First off, you totally misinterpreted my post. I was saying that the ownership of the board has nothing to do with $$$, not this decision.

Second of all, I don't know what you're talking about with your "im well aware of your dislike for me.". I'm actually very neutral towards you, there are people around here that I have dislike for (which I think I hide for the most part), but you are not one of them.

I can agree with your first post, so if i misunderstood you i retract my statement.

Your second post is just a feeling i have held, one of which is aided by since my time as a mod the only posts i have seen from you in regards to me have been mocking. Much like your post in this thread, you seem to go out of your way to point of oddities and falsities in my posts(which you retracted in this thread). That, coupled with the fact not one mod said anything kind about me after my time as one leads me to this belief. If its an unjust assumption, then so be it. I am trying to discuss the merit of this decision, and the actions that need to be taken if threads can be discarded as non-post worthy. I really am trying to be respectful and work through this decision, and i have apologized to SD by PM and AIM. I really would like skydog to discuss with someone(not me anymore, as i failed in the role) the decision and its merit, instead of how he has handled it with a joke

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Done. Feel free to post players needed and game announcements in GD.

Thanks Skydog. This addresses my main concern about the change. Now we have alot more flexibility in how many games run at one time without annoying the general population, but still be able to get the attention needed from General Discussion forum to get players for signups or when a new player is needed.

I'm back to being my normal happy self again.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Done. Feel free to post players needed and game announcements in GD.

I must be in the minority about post count, but obviously skydog felt it enough of an issue to turn it off. I wish skydog had discussed this instead of just accepting the first mild proposal that came along. I said i was happy to keep WW in a seperate forum, but much like he must have to turn them off, i care about losing more then 4k posts.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

I can agree with your first post, so if i misunderstood you i retract my statement.

Your second post is just a feeling i have held, one of which is aided by since my time as a mod the only posts i have seen from you in regards to me have been mocking. Much like your post in this thread, you seem to go out of your way to point of oddities and falsities in my posts(which you retracted in this thread). That, coupled with the fact not one mod said anything kind about me after my time as one leads me to this belief. If its an unjust assumption, then so be it. I am trying to discuss the merit of this decision, and the actions that need to be taken if threads can be discarded as non-post worthy. I really am trying to be respectful and work through this decision, and i have apologized to SD by PM and AIM. I really would like skydog to discuss with someone(not me anymore, as i failed in the role) the decision and its merit, instead of how he has handled it with a joke

I have taken issue with things you've said before and after you were a mod. But I have no particular dislike towards you. I take a certain pride in "calling people out" when i feel they are hypocritical or make stupid statements (like you said, sometimes i'm wrong like in this case). I do it to others on here and I do it on IHOF all of the time. Apparently I have done that with you more than you would like, but it has not registered with me as any specific dislike towards you.

So, you may perceive it that way, but I have no particular feeling towards you either way as I think we rarely cross paths on this board as we do not have that many similar interests.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Done. Feel free to post players needed and game announcements in GD.

Well, that will make things easier for us, but it makes no sense as that's actually the bulk of the werewolf threads. Each game is only one active thread at a time. So, if people complained before, they will complain just as much now.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

I must be in the minority about post count, but obviously skydog felt it enough of an issue to turn it off. I wish skydog had discussed this instead of just accepting the first mild proposal that came along. I said i was happy to keep WW in a seperate forum, but much like he must have to turn them off, i care about losing more then 4k posts.

Just out of curiosity.

Why do you care so much about the posts?

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Well, that will make things easier for us, but it makes no sense as that's actually the bulk of the werewolf threads. Each game is only one active thread at a time. So, if people complained before, they will complain just as much now.

I think from the comments and actions, its not the occasional 1 WW thread that people complained about. (Since the hot or not threads have like 5-20 for every 1 WW thread it seems). Its just that each WW thread has 2500-3000 posts with people increasing their post count tremendously.

Thats why I offered up the compromise that I did, it won't solve the post count issue that people have on either side of the fence (people complaining about WW inflating post counts, or people who are upset from losing post counts.) however it will keep our games running so we can enjoy them. Thats what I care about.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I think from the comments and actions, its not the occasional 1 WW thread that people complained about. (Since the hot or not threads have like 5-20 for every 1 WW thread it seems). Its just that each WW thread has 2500-3000 posts with people increasing their post count tremendously.

Thats why I offered up the compromise that I did, it won't solve the post count issue that people have on either side of the fence (people complaining about WW inflating post counts, or people who are upset from losing post counts.) however it will keep our games running so we can enjoy them. Thats what I care about.

I like the move, too, but I thought post count inflation was the minor concern, and the major concern was werewolf threads disrupting the main board. I don't care about post counts, and if that was the complaint, so be it. I just think the people who complained will still complain.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Just out of curiosity.

Why do you care so much about the posts?

Since when i first joined the board back during the sideline days post count has led to a social heirarchy within the board. Back then grizzled veterans was a title to be proud of. It was a status i felt validated someone as a real core member of the board.

With the coming of the new titles that have far more levels i feel my post count holds even more weight. I went down around 3-4 levels in the FOFC heirarchy with this decision. Therefore, i feel my status and time spent at this board is no longer valued. If i had spent all of my time posting countless meaningless comments in the maximum football thread or what not, i would still have them and my status. I feel a decision has been made by a non-ww player to designate my time and effort in these threads as not worthy of FOFC standards. Post count and title is a source of pride for me, just like it is for Quiksand and JeeberD(2 fellow mods of yours). The reason we have the new titles is people wanted a better way to differentiate high posters from low posters. With this decision, i have been relegated down the ladder of importance within FOFC in my mind.

This view may be considered immature, but obviously enough people cared about post counts and titles that they complained endlessly about WW. Why do their opinions about our post counts and threads matter more then our own opinions? I dont particularly care for threads like maximum football, and avoid them, but i dont mind them being there if others enjoy them.

This forum is a internet discussion board that has evolved into a place for people to have fun. I dont see why Skydog talking about his favorite HS, anxiety telling us he loves us, and krysup(one of the mods) posting about schreech's penis are all considered post worthy while WW is not. We all have our own means of enjoying our stay here at FOFC, and i dont believe its fair to penalize us for enjoying it in a way that skydog does not care about.

[Abe Sargent]

I personally feel that runing off post counts for some activities and not others is bad form, a slap in the face, unfair, and creates massive questions of respect, civility, and ethics.