Kobe/Laker Haters-ESPN article

[MrBug708]

The link to the story

Phil, Kobe beating Popovich, Duncan one-on-one

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Ric Bucher
ESPN The Magazine

LOS ANGELES -- Phil Jackson didn't get much consideration for Coach of the Year honors. Kobe Bryant was a distant also-ran in the MVP race. However the Lakers-Spurs series ends up, they both have proved that to be a gross oversight against the very men who won those awards.

Have you taken a close look at this Lakers team? Only its aura as a three-time defending champion remains unbroken. Disassemble it and you'd wonder how it's still in contention. Robert Horry, bless his weary small-forward soul, is paying the price for a year-long masquerade as a power forward. Brian Shaw, 37 going on 52, started at shooting guard in Game 1 and is averaging 21.4 minutes this series, which is more than he played in three of the last four seasons. Kobe, a guard for the last two seasons, is at small forward. Free-agent rookie Jannero Pargo is in the rotation. Shaquille O'Neal is surviving on offensive rebounding and free-throw shooting. Point guard Derek Fisher, expending every ounce of energy on defense, doesn't even think about going to the rim anymore.


Kobe Bryant, left, and Phil Jackson have kept the Lakers' bid for a fourth title alive.
And yet there they were, coming out of a timeout, smiling with 3:24 to play and down by four on the floor of the regular season's best team, giddy about the chance to play yet again under nut-cracking pressure, wholly confident that what they do would mean more than what they now are.

"It's not by luck," said Spurs guard Steve Kerr, who played under Jackson in Chicago. "It's Phil. He's a master at getting the most out of whatever he has and making his team feel completely confident that he can put them in position to win."

The Zenmaster's touch with stars is particularly deft. When referees and coaches met last summer at the Chicago pre-draft camp to discuss how free-throw violations could be handled without re-writing the rule book -- a discussion inspired mostly by the falling-forward style of Shaq -- Jackson cut short the debate. "He's supposed to be the best player in the game," said Jackson, according to an eyewitness. "Make him adjust."

And Shaq did, shooting a career-high 62 percent from the line, his first foray over 60 percent. But Jackson also recognizes when adjustments must be made for the Daddy, which is why he began posting Shaq away from the basket midway through the series. Whether it's fatigue or injury or the Spurs' big-on-big double-teaming strategy, Shaq hasn't been able to finish around the basket without throwing a space-clearing shoulder first. That made him tentative, which then made him ineffective. Moving him up to the pinch post allowed him to rely on his jump hook, passing and screen-setting instead of his power moves, and gave him space to attack the offensive boards or cut for a dish from Kobe.

Jackson stayed with that strategy until it didn't work, and then he didn't hesitate to dump both the plan and his gargantuan superstar. He sat Shaq for the first half of the fourth quarter in Game 5, riding, instead, the hot hand of Slava Medvedenko. Only when the game was within striking distance did he put Shaq back on the floor to guard MVP Tim Duncan.

Which is where Coach of the Year Gregg Popovich didn't respond in kind. The Spurs knew going into the game that their offense historically came up dry whenever they ran it through a Shaq-guarded Duncan. Yet they still went to him and, predictably, got nothing.

This is not, by the way, to denigrate Popovich. His best player is shaky shooting the ball under pressure, be at the free-throw line or in the post. His point guard, Tony Parker, is shaky under pressure at everything other than shooting, which is why running pick-and-rolls for him at the end produced just enough for San Antonio to avoid the upset. When Kobe hit a pair of threes to end the third quarter, trimming the Spurs' lead to a still-robust 16, the entire SBC Center and most of Pop's players swallowed their collective tongues. If it's possible for a home crowd to choke, this one did, screaming inexplicably at the referees and cursing its own team under its breath for the rest of the night. Only Popovich seemed unaffected, using his timeouts shrewdly and in each restoring his team's composure, if only for a possession or two.

Then again, the Spurs' and their crowd's fear was justified, considering who had just let everyone know he was open for business. Kobe's array of responsibilities have been expanded by the absence of Rick Fox, the gimpiness of Devean George and the need to contain Manu Ginobili. Still, the Spurs almost visibly shivered every time Kobe touched the ball in the fourth quarter. Bruce Bowen is getting kudos for slowing him down -- and yet Crazy Eight had 36 points in Game 5, including 19 in the final 13 minutes, and is averaging 35 for the series.

As has been discussed in this space before, the definition of league MVP remains purposely vague, but a guy who can terrify an entire arena simply by getting the ball in his hands is a pretty good start.


As has been discussed in this space before, the definition of league MVP remains purposely vague, but a guy who can terrify an entire arena simply by getting the ball in his hands is a pretty good start. Shaq still has that effect at times, as does Allen Iverson on occasion. Not to be too harsh, but Duncan isn't inspiring that response even though the Lakers are single-covering him with Horry, Mark Madsen and Medvedenko. He's a selfless superstar and his team had the best record -- that, presumably, is what won him the MVP award.

Thanks to Jackson and Kobe, though, one of the Spurs' award winners is probably going to have to break form for their team to win one last game and vanquish basketball's version of Dracula. Either Duncan is going to have induce some fear by producing in the clutch, or Popovich is going to have to take a page from Jackson's championship-winning book and have the guts to look elsewhere.

[Chief Rum]

bump

Well said, in the wake of the Lakers' final demise. As I stated in another thread, this team, whatever you think of it, deserves some respect.

Chief Rum

[AgPete]

Originally posted by MrBug708
Either Duncan is going to have induce some fear by producing in the clutch, or Popovich is going to have to take a page from Jackson's championship-winning book and have the guts to look elsewhere.

Yeah, that's Tim Duncan all right. No clutch production whatsoever. Those two MVPs must have been lucky flukes. Just like Game 6 when he took the Lakers to school. I hate when sports writers starting writing crap just to sell a paper.

[SackAttack]

That article was written before Game Six, first of all. Second of all, two MVP awards are only useful if you produce when it matters. Didn't Jason Kidd win an MVP last year? Oh, that's right...

[AgPete]

Tim Duncan was Finals MVP four seasons ago! In his second year in the NBA for goodness sake! Oh, that's right, strike shortened championships don't count. Sorry, but anyone who says Tim Duncan isn't clutch is an idiot who doesn't watch the game. Tim Duncan is the Spurs. David Robinson quickly declined from age and injuries. Until this year, Duncan rarely had any talented help around him. Avery Johnson, Mario Ellie, Jarren Jackson, need I say more? No matter how good you are, one man cannot play for the entire team.

[Chief Rum]

I got it. So when the Spurs win, he's clutch, and he's great. And when they don't win (all the other years), he just doesn't have the talent around him. Uh-huh...riiiiiiggggghhhht....

Chief Rum

[AgPete]

Originally posted by Chief Rum
I got it. So when the Spurs win, he's clutch, and he's great. And when they don't win (all the other years), he just doesn't have the talent around him. Uh-huh...riiiiiiggggghhhht....

Chief Rum

Hey, if you think a mid-30's Avery Johnson, Sean Elliott after a kidney transplant, David Robinson bothered by back injuries, Jarren Jackson a player lucky to be in the league and the other scraps surrounding Duncan were just as good as Shaq, Kobe, Horry, Grant, Fox, Fisher and the rest of them, then more power to you. Duncan played his ass off when the Spurs lost to the Lakers the last two years, it's not his fault he never had much talent around him. Duncan has been the man to make the game winning shots for the Spurs the last five years. Does anyone watch any Spurs games? Duncan has always been the man, this wasn't an overnight transformation. He's just not as flashy, has no tattoos, doesn't act like a gangsta, doesn't play on a bandwagon team like L.A. and all the other stuff the media and some fans think you need to do to be considered "clutch."

[JeeberD]

I stole this from someone else. Let's see if I can get it to work here...

[Chief Rum]

Derek Anderson, Malik Rose, Antonio Daniels, Tony Parker kid, Steve Kerr, Steve Smith...you forgetting some players?

No, Duncan didn't have a great supprting cast, but it had some players with some good skills. The Lakers also don't have a great supporting cast. You might want to read over that list you tossed out of supporting players for the Lakers and ask yourself what's so great about any of them.

First of all, Shaq and Kobe. Hey, no denying it, two stars is better than one. The Spurs had that, too, for four of Duncan's first years, three of which did not end in titles. Then Robinson's injury problems started--but, IMO, their support personnel since Robinson's injury problems really got chronic is better now than it ever has been.

Now to the rest of that Laker "great" supporting cast. Horry--you mean the guy who doesn't show up at all except to hit threes at the end of close games. The guy who doesn't start at small forward because he's too slow, and whom we often have to start at power forward for lack of depth, despite the fact that he's about 30 pounds underweight to the average power forward? That Robert Horry? The 33-year-old Horry?

Fox I'll give as an underrated player, but I think there are plenty of matching talent support players on the Spurs (Parker is at least that good, and in the early years, pre-kidney, Elliot was better than any of these guys except for the stars).

Grant? The beyond aging power forward who barely had the energy to get through the playoffs? He was a shadow of himself for the Lakers. Best things he brought to the team was an NBA PF-sized body and a winning attitude.

Fisher? The guy who jacks up a crapload of unnecessary shots, and is about as consistent as the sun is in staying up for more than a day? The guy who could use better handles and doesn't make very good decisions witht he ball and is overmatched by any strong and tall guard? That Fisher?

Just like the Spurs' supporting cast, some of the backup players on the Lakers have some particular skills. But there are no hidden complete talents back there. These guys have legitimate deficiiencies and big ones. So do the Spurs.

I'm not saying that Duncan is some huge clutch blackhole, but he probably could have showed up more plenty of times in the past few years, like when the Lakers were sweeping his ass two years ago. He's a fine day-in, day-out player (as shown by the MVPs, which have, umm, NOTHING to do with being clutch), but in the past I haven't always seen him carry his team the way Kobe and Shaq do, especially when one or the other is out (which seems to happen an awful lot).

Chief Rum

[IMetTrentGreen]

tim duncan is 26, has a finals MVP and two regualar season MVP awards, in back to back yers, one of six players to do so

kobe has shaq, and vice versa. if you have two of the best 3 players in the game, and the best coach, you have no excuses, ever

i wonder what that author thought of the 4th quarter meltdown in game 6 with their season on the line, or tim's rediculous performance. what was he, like 15-23 from the field? only one of these two teams is on the golf course right now. it isn't timmy's

get this deluded shit outta here

[IMetTrentGreen]

He's a selfless superstar

god forbid

[MrBug708]

i wonder what that author thought of the 4th quarter meltdown in game 6 with their season on the line, or tim's rediculous performance. what was he, like 15-23 from the field? only one of these two teams is on the golf course right now. it isn't timmy's

Horry's shot falls, everyone is talking about how the Spurs blew game 5. As for game 6, they were down by 10 going into the 4th

[AgPete]

Originally posted by Chief Rum
Derek Anderson, Malik Rose, Antonio Daniels, Tony Parker kid, Steve Kerr, Steve Smith...you forgetting some players?

Antonio Daniels? Yeah, such a threat that the Spurs traded him. Steve Smith? This isn't your Atlanta Hawks' Smith, did you see how many minutes he got this year? Nothing left in him. Steve Kerr? Nice for an occasional three pointer but I'd rather have Horry, Fox or Fisher anyday of the week. Speaking of Derek Anderson, don't your remember the cheap shot by Juwan Hoard that sent Anderson out of the playoffs his only year with the Spurs? He was the second scoring threat on the Spurs! A huge loss in the playoffs! He finally played in the Lakers series when it was already over and he was practically playing on crutches. But all we heard from the media was "Wow! The Lakers are dominant!" Yet, the Lakers lose Fox and the media acts like they lost Kobe Bryant or Shaq and somehow the Spurs win isn't genuine. Remember, the Spurs also lost Tim Duncan to an injury the year they tried to repeat their championship.

First of all, Shaq and Kobe. Hey, no denying it, two stars is better than one. The Spurs had that, too, for four of Duncan's first years, three of which did not end in titles. Then Robinson's injury problems started--but, IMO, their support personnel since Robinson's injury problems really got chronic is better now than it ever has been.

Yes, that's exactly my point. This year the Spurs bitch slapped the Lakers with a second year point guard that just turned 21, a rookie (Manu) and another young guy (Stephen Jackson) as one of their main scoring threats. Welcome NBA to the next dynasty. If the Spurs are this good with this young team, they're going to be scary as hell for a few years.

I'm not saying that Duncan is some huge clutch blackhole, but he probably could have showed up more plenty of times in the past few years, like when the Lakers were sweeping his ass two years ago. He's a fine day-in, day-out player (as shown by the MVPs, which have, umm, NOTHING to do with being clutch), but in the past I haven't always seen him carry his team the way Kobe and Shaq do, especially when one or the other is out (which seems to happen an awful lot).

That's because you haven't been watching their games. What are you talking about, he didn't show up? As I recall, Duncan and Rose were the only players on the Spurs that acted like they gave a crap during the playoffs last year. Have you looked at his playoff averages? They're all higher than his regular season averages just like any great player! I've watched the Spurs for years and I've seen Duncan make MANY last second game winning shots! Face it, the Spurs never had enough talent to beat the Lakers, one man can not carry a team. Has Kobe ever done jack without Shaq? As I recall, the Lakers were terrible with Shaq out of the picture earlier this year. Face it Lakers fans, your dynasty is over, the Spurs have enough talent to wipe the floor now and the Lakers are only getting older. Nevermind the Spurs, worry about the Mavs, Kings, and Suns while you're at it too. The Suns were just as tough as the Lakers in the Spurs first round this year. They're going to be a damn good team when Stoudemire gets some more experience.

[EagleFan]

Can't you just hear the sound of that writers lips around Phil's... Well you get the picture.

Heard in the office after the story went to press: "No Phil, don't worry about giving a reach-around."

[rexallllsc]

Originally posted by IMetTrentGreen
tim duncan is 26, has a finals MVP and two regualar season MVP awards, in back to back yers, one of six players to do so

kobe has shaq, and vice versa. if you have two of the best 3 players in the game, and the best coach, you have no excuses, ever

i wonder what that author thought of the 4th quarter meltdown in game 6 with their season on the line, or tim's rediculous performance. what was he, like 15-23 from the field? only one of these two teams is on the golf course right now. it isn't timmy's

get this deluded shit outta here

Shaq - 3 titles
Kobe - 3 titles
Duncan - 1 title

EOT

[AgPete]

Originally posted by rexallllsc
Shaq - 3 titles
Kobe - 3 titles
Duncan - 1 title

EOT

Duncan with Kobe or Shaq at his side - 3 titles
If Kobe or Shaq were by themselves (just like Duncan) - 1 title

Now that Duncan has Parker, Ginobilli, Jackson, et al surrounding him, before you know it he'll have 3 titles too.

[AgPete]

dola

What's even funnier about this is some of the other media members that were kissing Laker ass all year long like the ESPN writer in the first thread were all angry that Kobe wasn't given the MVP over Duncan. Oops! They look dumb now. I'm glad they're not voting.

[rexallllsc]

Originally posted by AgPete
Duncan with Kobe or Shaq at his side - 3 titles
If Kobe or Shaq were by themselves (just like Duncan) - 1 title

Now that Duncan has Parker, Ginobilli, Jackson, et al surrounding him, before you know it he'll have 3 titles too.

Back to real life, where we deal with absolute's:

Shaq - 3 titles
Kobe - 3 titles
Duncan - 1 title

[MrBug708]

Since we are playing if's, I'll go too. IF Fox doesnt get hurt, Lakers win the series. If Horry's shot goes in, we are waiting for Dallas

[mckerney]

Originally posted by rexallllsc
Back to real life, where we deal with absolute's:

Shaq - 3 titles
Kobe - 3 titles
Duncan - 1 title

David Stern and His Luce Ref Crew - 3 years of pushing a mass media market as far as they could for increased television revenue.

Last years Game 6 anyone?

The Lakers would have been damn lucky to get by the Wolves this year if they hadn't had the help they're accustomed to.

Though I guess we live in the real life where such things are absolutes.

[rexallllsc]

Originally posted by mckerney
David Stern and His Luce Ref Crew - 3 years of pushing a mass media market as far as they could for increased television revenue.

Last years Game 6 anyone?

The Lakers would have been damn lucky to get by the Wolves this year if they hadn't had the help they're accustomed to.

Though I guess we live in the real life where such things are absolutes.

Game 5, anyone?

[TroyF]

1) The Lakers are a GREAT basketball team. Repeat for all of you who think I bash the Lakers without respecting them, A GREAT BASKETBALL TEAM. Yes, I do believe they've got the benefit of some calls over the years. Yes, I do believe Sac. won that series last year. Doesn't mean the Lakers aren't a great team.

2) Tim Duncan has hit clutch shot after clutch shot after clutch shot for the Spurs. You talk about what he did getting swept last year, what about what he did to Shaq and Kobe when he swept them 4 years ago? The Lakers do have more titles, but you do have to take into account that they had 2 Mega Stars to the Spurs 1. If you can't see a difference there, I'm a little bit stunned. (Please note: I've already said the Lakers are a GREAT team. I do believe that)

3) Please stop comparing game 5 and game 6, there is not any comparison. (27 free throws in the final quarter in game 6 vs. the Lakers actually getting more FT attempts in the second half in game 5 is NOT a push, no matter how hard you try to make it one)

4) I really wish the people saying the "dynasty is over" would shut the hell up. The dynasty is not over. I can easily see the Lakers winning another ring next year. I could see them snagging two out of the next three. They aren't finished. No team with two superstars can ever be counted out.

TroyF

[Kodos]

Originally posted by rexallllsc
Back to real life, where we deal with absolute's:

Shaq - 3 titles
Kobe - 3 titles
Duncan - 1 title

And they wonder why people hate the Lakers? Arrogant even after a trouncing.

[Blackadar]

Originally posted by Kodos
And they wonder why people hate the Lakers? Arrogant even after a trouncing.

Yea, but they're home for the Summer, which is a good thing.

[Kodos]

Which is a STUPENDOUS thing.

[TroyF]

Agreed.

TroyF

[MrBug708]

And they wonder why people hate the Lakers? Arrogant even after a trouncing.

Kodos, where are you getting the info Kobe or any other Laker said that? Or are you just quoting a fan?

[MrBug708]

dola

The Lakers do have more titles, but you do have to take into account that they had 2 Mega Stars to the Spurs 1. If you can't see a difference there, I'm a little bit stunned. (Please note: I've already said the Lakers are a GREAT team. I do believe that)

And here I thought D-Robinson was a scrub who doesn't merit any HOF consideration

[TroyF]

MrBug,

Give me a break. You know damned well David Robinson hasn't been a superstar for quite awhile now. You do realize he hasn't averaged 18 points a game in 5 years. The last time you could call David Robinson a true "superstar" would be the 95-96 season when he averaged 36+ minutes and 25 ppg. The last three seasons he averaged less than 30 minutes and 15 points per game.

No, Duncan has not played with another bonified superstar. He's carried the Spurs and did again this year. Heck, in this postseason, he's leading the Spurs in scoring (by 9 a game), offensive and defensive rebounding (nearly 7 rebounds a game more than his nearest teammate), assists (2 more a game than closest teammate), blocks and minutes (over 8 more than Parker).

I can't believe you would think Robinson was still a superstar or has been for a long while. Unbelievable.

TroyF

[MrBug708]

So, you're saying D-Rob was a superstar at one point? Maybe it should have been posted better

[TroyF]

MrBug,

Actually, I never brought up David Robinson in one of my posts until the last one. I stated the Lakers had played with 2 Mega Stars to the Spurs 1. You threw out David's name at that point with my quote above it.

It would only be arguable that David was still a superstar in Duncan's first year in the league. He averaged 21 points per game that year, but still missed 9 games and averaged less than 35 minutes.

Yes, David was a superstar at one point in his career. He averaged over 23 and 10 his first 7 years in the league. Sadly, the back injury ended that. He never again put up those type of numbers.

TroyF

[Joe Canadian]

Duncan is an avg. clutch player... nothing to write home about. Just because the guy wins two MVP's doesn't automaticlly mean he is a clutch player.

My definition of clutch is that a player has to be able to hit shots to tie or win the game in the last 2-3 mins of the 4th. Can he do that? Yes. But do other players fear his clutch performance in those situations? No.

[MrBug708]

but still missed 9 games

Shaq missed more then that this year


I know, I'm just being an ass

[TroyF]

MrBug,

Yes. You are. It's ok.

Joe,

It'd be interesting to see a stat of Duncan in the fourth quarter of close games. I can think of 10-12 game winning shots he's hit right off the top of my head. I'd venture to guess he has as many or more game winning shots than any player in the league right now.

TroyF

[MrBug708]

I'd venture to guess he has as many or more game winning shots than any player in the league right now.

Probably right up there with Kobe. ESPN ranked Kobe as the best clutch shooter in the NBA.

[Kodos]

Originally posted by MrBug708
Kodos, where are you getting the info Kobe or any other Laker said that? Or are you just quoting a fan?

I was quoting a fan in this thread. Fans are usually just as big a factor as players in my disliking certain teams. Sometimes fans are the main reason. The more arrogant the fans are, the more I want their team to lose so that they suffer.

As for the clutch thing, I will say this: No current player scares me more than Kobe when the game is on the line and he has the ball. Jordan, of course, would be the scariest player ever in that regard (to me). No lead ever feels safe to me when Kobe is around. I may not like him, but I respect him.

[Joe Canadian]

Anyone see the Spurs/Mavs game... and that is why Duncan doesn't strike fear into opposing players because of his clutch performance.

[EagleFan]

Originally posted by MrBug708
Probably right up there with Kobe. ESPN ranked Kobe as the best clutch shooter in the NBA.

Because ESPN says something, it must be true. Like when they said that the Cowboys would win the division last year.

[Kodos]

Originally posted by EagleFan
Because ESPN says something, it must be true. Like when they said that the Cowboys would win the division last year.

LOL.

Originally posted by Joe Canadian
Anyone see the Spurs/Mavs game... and that is why Duncan doesn't strike fear into opposing players because of his clutch performance.

As for clutch playing, what about Kobe in Game 6 of the Lakers/Spurs? He really showed up in the 4th, as long as we're making fun of non-clutch performances.

[MrBug708]

Kinda hard to score 25 in a quarter, especially when your sitting and letting the scrubs play


Where is the conspiracy theory that the NBA wants the Mavs to win. I mean, they shot 50 FT's or so

Hypocrits

[Kodos]

The only reason Kobe was sitting was because he wasn't clutch enough to keep them closer than 25 points down. The lead was very vulnerable coming into the 4th.

[MrBug708]

The only reason Kobe was sitting was because he wasn't clutch enough to keep them closer than 25 points down. The lead was very vulnerable coming into the 4th.

By your definition, there is no such thing as clutch

[cuervo72]

Originally posted by MrBug708

Where is the conspiracy theory that the NBA wants the Mavs to win. I mean, they shot 50 FT's or so

Hypocrits

Yeah well....San Antonio only shot 48 of them. They just couldn't get any in.

FTM-A
Dallas 49-50
San Antonio 31-48

[Kodos]

Originally posted by MrBug708
By your definition, there is no such thing as clutch

This is absurd. They were down somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 points coming into the 4th. Instead of erasing that lead, Kobe and Co. allowed the Spurs to extend it out past 25. They certainly had a chance to come back, but blew that chance so badly that they ended up on the bench when it was out of reach. How does this make the word "clutch" non-existent in my dictionary? They had a chance to come back, but instead got buried in a very unclutch 4th quarter performance.

[MrBug708]

Well, it worked the previous two nights, so I think Lady Luck ended. Not to say we couldnt do it, b ut a team cannot keep coming back from deficiets

[Kodos]

Agreed.