The NBA 2010 offseason/draft thread

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Brown fired.

Nice, I guess I should have stayed in bed a bit longer today, so i can wake up to the news

[jbergey22]

Jordan is one of them once in a lifetime iconic figures. Like Babe Ruth who is still remember and talked about 100 years later. The things MJ did were things you would read in a book.

You also grow to love the players that grew up with your team. I dont think anyone has any doubts that ARod is a better baseball player than Jeter however a Yankee fan adores Jeter while their is very little loyalty to ARod.

Lebron could win 10 championships in Chicago and Jordan would still be their guy IMO. Of course its very possible Chicago might have won 8-9 in a row had MJ not retired in 93.

[LastWhiteSoxFanStanding]

He doesn't have to compete with Jordan, he just has to add to the Bulls legacy. For instance, I don't think in Boston anybody compares Paul Pierce to Larry Bird, but they are both beloved and Pierce has become iconic in his own way even though everybody knows he's not Bird.

Also, to bring in another sport...Urlacher continues the legacy of LBs for the Bears following George, Butkis and Singletary. Some people think he is better and some think he is worse but he is part of the legacy which is pretty cool.

I don't know if Lebron will go to Chicago, but he doesn't have to compete with Jordan, he just has to add and become part of the legacy.

[stevew]

I think OKC should snag up Brown as an assistant coach. He'd be good enough at coaching defense that it could get that team to the next level(legit contenders) by next season.

As a head coach, he's fucking clueless though.

[larrymcg421]

As a good defensive coach, why would he think Shaq could guard KG?

[korme]

Last week I'd have argued it would be hard for him to leave his home town team.

Now? He's gotta look around and just realize this nucleus isn't cutting it. Cut ties, go to NY, Chi-town, or Brooklyn with Bosh and do work. Rain championships. Bosh can be his Pippen.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

As a good defensive coach, why would he think Shaq could guard KG?

because nobody else could either? He's a horrible head coach, but he's been a solid assistant coach at several locations.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by LastWhiteSoxFanStanding

I don't know if Lebron will go to Chicago, but he doesn't have to compete with Jordan, he just has to add and become part of the legacy.

I agree but I dont know that this is Lebrons personality. I think he wants to go to a place where is he the man. Lebron is so hard to read so who knows what hes even thinking. He says he just wants to win so I just wonder how leaving a place that won the most games in the NBA this year is going to help him win. If he goes to New York or New Jersey it will be just like starting over in Cleveland 8 years ago. Its not like Cleveland doesnt have options and an owner that doesnt want to win.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

As a good defensive coach, why would he think Shaq could guard KG?

i burned him for that yesterday, still puzzled. Garnett was having a good series, but he was hardly picking them apart or anything

btw : I still think they would have played their best basketball against the Magic. Remember when teams used to build their roster to deal with Shaq/Kobe ? The Cavs really built their roster to beat the Magic.
Parker would have guarded Carter, now he had to guard a non-jumpshooting PG that naturally ran circles around him, Williams imo would have been ok guarding Nelson. Jamison was the counterpart to Lewis and Shaq to Howard. Now you had Jamison on a much longer player that also is a much better defender (thus taking away Jamison´s effect on that end) and Shaq against a guy that gets all his points on scrap-plays anyway.

I all fairness to Brown, that roster really didn´t have a lot of 2-way players with the Celtics as a match-up. Williams was a liability defensively, Parker wasn´t doing enough offensively, Jamison couldn´t guard anybody, Shaq didn´t have anybody to guard, Varejao didn´t bring you enough offense (still he should have played way, way more), neither did Moon or West off the bench.

He should have brought Jamison off the bench and start Varejao imo, maybe start one of their smaller guards instead of starting Parker (West of Gibson).

[Silver Owl]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Brown fired.

Not true, yet.

[Ksyrup]

Looks like SI jumped the gun. I was wondering about the way ESPN.com finally reported this - the headline was Brown fired, but all they did was reference the SI report, then said Ric Bucher talked to the Cavs and they denied it.

At what point do you decide to report the guy was fired, when all you've got to go on is someone else's sources, PLUS your own guy getting a denial straight from the team?

[digamma]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

As a good defensive coach, why would he think Shaq could guard KG?

Bucher's take is that it was a pure save the clubhouse move. He knows how much weight Shaq throws around on a team so the risk of dividing the clubhouse and Shaq becoming disinterested for the rest of the playoffs outweighed the risk of losing to Boston with Shaq on the floor. Unfortunately, the second half of that equation hit.

[RainMaker]

As a Bulls fan, my only concern is him creating a super-team with Bosh and Wade in Miami. Or even just Wade in Miami if Riley becomes Head Coach and can turn Lebron into a true monster on the court. I think him with Bosh in New York is not a title team and staying in Cleveland will be real tough.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

The player essentially negotiates with the other teams, finds where he actually wants to go and then his original team not wanting to get nothing for him will sign him and then work out a deal with the other team so they at least get something in return rather than losing the guy for nothing. So the original team gets a few players and the player gets his max contract.

OK, so let's take Bosh as an example.

Today on ESPN radio they were talking about where he'd wind up in a sign-and-trade. The guy originally picked Chicago, but then backed off and said they didn't have the assets to get a trade done. He figured the Lakers were a better fit as far as what they could offer for him.

But does it matter who's a good fit? If Bosh wants to go to Chicago, aren't the Raptors just stuck with whatever they can get? Or do they have any sort of power to tell him "look, too bad, you're going to the Lakers instead".

[stevew]

The Raptors have no leverage with a team under the cap(like chicago). chicago can sign him outright.

The Lakers, on the other hand, are over the cap. So in order for Bosh to get a big contract, there would have to be a sign and trade worked out.
So if Bosh wants to go to the Lakers, they have to work out a trade which might benefit the Raptors.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by stevew

The Raptors have no leverage with a team under the cap(like chicago). chicago can sign him outright.

For the same dollars he'd get in a sign-and-trade?

[stevew]

More or less the same dollars. The Raptors can offer a 6 year deal worth 30M more than the 5 year deal the Bulls can offer. Assuming the Bulls would just sign him for the 6th year, it's like a 6m difference or so over the first 5 years.

[duckman]

My sources told me that Lebron and OKC have a super secret contract worked out. Don't tell anybody.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by whomario

i burned him for that yesterday, still puzzled. Garnett was having a good series, but he was hardly picking them apart or anything

btw : I still think they would have played their best basketball against the Magic. Remember when teams used to build their roster to deal with Shaq/Kobe ? The Cavs really built their roster to beat the Magic.
Parker would have guarded Carter, now he had to guard a non-jumpshooting PG that naturally ran circles around him, Williams imo would have been ok guarding Nelson. Jamison was the counterpart to Lewis and Shaq to Howard. Now you had Jamison on a much longer player that also is a much better defender (thus taking away Jamison´s effect on that end) and Shaq against a guy that gets all his points on scrap-plays anyway.

I all fairness to Brown, that roster really didn´t have a lot of 2-way players with the Celtics as a match-up. Williams was a liability defensively, Parker wasn´t doing enough offensively, Jamison couldn´t guard anybody, Shaq didn´t have anybody to guard, Varejao didn´t bring you enough offense (still he should have played way, way more), neither did Moon or West off the bench.

He should have brought Jamison off the bench and start Varejao imo, maybe start one of their smaller guards instead of starting Parker (West of Gibson).

I still think you are insane.

I think Nelson would have ran circles around Moe. I think Orlando's ball movement would have destroyed the Cavs. They'd have had an open three anytime they wanted it. I think the Cavs driving lanes would have been shot to hell with Howard back there and they'd have been forced to rely on Jamison and Williams the entire series. I also think with Bron's jumper being off, the offense would have been stifled. The thing I keep coming back to is the Bulls series. The Bulls got ANY shot they wanted for a vast majority of that series.

Keep in mind the Bulls finished 28th in the league in offensive efficiency. The Celtics were 13th. (though they were playing at a higher level this series, I still don't feel their O is a juggernaut and that will be exposed in a few days) Orlando finished second in the league in offensive efficiency and ties for tops defensively. I know matchups make the day in basketball, but you are talking about a team that's won 27 of their last 30 games and most of those by double digits. The reality is Cleveland was not clicking on all cylinders in the playoffs and I don't see how they'd have beat Orlando.

What kind of gets me is people saying Boston is back. OK, they are playing well, I'll give them that. But Cleveland wasn't. Cleveland was playing so poorly headed into the series that I said they had a shot at beating the Cavs. (how many people thought that? Even hardcore Celtics fans?)

If Boston takes it to Orlando? I'll be impressed. I think Orlando is going to stifle their offense and score enough to win the series in 5.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by stevew

The Raptors have no leverage with a team under the cap(like chicago). chicago can sign him outright.

They do which is why they wouldn't have to give up as much. But the Raptors have a guaranteed $20 million in leverage over Bosh in the situation.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

But does it matter who's a good fit? If Bosh wants to go to Chicago, aren't the Raptors just stuck with whatever they can get? Or do they have any sort of power to tell him "look, too bad, you're going to the Lakers instead".

Because the Raptors can offer him an extra year at $20 million. So in a sign and trade, Bosh is much richer.

[claphamsa]

Originally Posted by stevew

I just joined the "Hope LeBron James has to have Microfracture Surgery and it zaps him of his athleticism" group on Facebook.

i searched for this.... booo wanted to join

[k0ruptr]

Lebron to Olympiakos, Count on it.

[DeToxRox]

WCWP SPORTS: West Sleeping with LeBron's Mom - Reason for Breakdown

No way I buy this but it's original, I'll say that:

Delonte West is sleep with LBJ's mom?

[whomario]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

WCWP SPORTS: West Sleeping with LeBron's Mom - Reason for Breakdown

No way I buy this but it's original, I'll say that:

Delonte West is sleep with LBJ's mom?

this would propably be the mother of all diversions if indeed true.

Remember this little stunt by Delonte btw ? delonte west is prepared for the zombie apocalypse - Front Office Football Central
Basketbawful

Three guns were found -- a 9mm Beretta in West's waistband, a Ruger .357 Magnum strapped to his leg, and a 12-gauge shotgun in a guitar case slung over his back, authorities said.

West also had additional shotgun shells in a backpack, authorities said.It's worth noting that, shortly after the arrest, West's father, Dmitri West, said: "All I can say is Delonte was looking behind his back and protecting himself."

From what, exactly, Dmitri? Bigfoot? The Terminator? A dinosaur? Because that was some serious armament for personal protection.

[miami_fan]

So are Cavs fans at a point now that they are hoping that LeBron DOES NOT go to resign with the Cavs?

[Galaxy]

Can any team be in a position to sign two of the elite FA's this year (LeBron, Wade, Bosh, ect.) and remain under the cap?

Bosh has said he wants to be the top dog for the team he wants to play for.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

So are Cavs fans at a point now that they are hoping that LeBron DOES NOT go to resign with the Cavs?

I'm not going to lose sleep if he doesn't come back. I will still like the Cavs.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Can any team be in a position to sign two of the elite FA's this year (LeBron, Wade, Bosh, ect.) and remain under the cap?

Bosh has said he wants to be the top dog for the team he wants to play for.

Bosh as the top dog for a team already happened, and look what it got Toronto. Guy puts up numbers but I would not touch him if he was supposed to be our franchise player. I'd just take a cheaper version of Bosh in Al Jefferson.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by stevew

I'm not going to lose sleep if he doesn't come back. I will still like the Cavs.

But that is not the question I asked. I have talked to several Hawks fans who don't want Joe Johnson on their team next year. Do you want LBJ on the Cavs next year or would you prefer that he leave your team?

[Scoobz0202]

Joe Johnson's totally different.

Steve's is a very valid response. I want him on the team, but if we lose him then so be it. If he leaves where do locals think he will go down in the most hated Cleveland sports figure list.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

But that is not the question I asked. I have talked to several Hawks fans who don't want Joe Johnson on their team next year. Do you want LBJ on the Cavs next year or would you prefer that he leave your team?

Okay. Say you've been dating this really hot chick for the past 3 years. She's way out of your league, but you've grown up together. You have a lot of things in common. Anyways, you can tell that when you get to college, she's going to probably dump you. So you still enjoy your time together. Well, she starts working at a restaurant, and the older manager dude smells the fact that, while you've broken her in, it's time to take this chick to another level.

So your friends and stuff start telling you that she's awful friendly with that guy. But you don't think anything of it, you're getting by the best that you can. Maybe this isn't the most successful relationship ever, but she's fucking hot. Well, one day she finally confesses that she and "Jeff" have been having an affair, and he taught her how to do anal.

I mean, the question is simple, does Zach still want to fuck Kelly after that? I'd have to think yes, despite all the flaws in the relationship.

[Neuqua]

awesome steve.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by bill simmons

LeBron James is 25 years old. He has played seven seasons -- 548 regular-season games and 71 playoff games. There's a feeling that he can still get better and, with better teammates, maybe he could. But fundamentally, to paraphrase Bill Parcells, he is what he is at this point -- a gregarious, larger-than-life, supremely gifted basketball player who's better at making us say "WOW!" than anything else. If he owned that cutthroat Jordan chromosome, or Magic's leadership chromosome, it would have surfaced by now. In Wednesday's column before Game 6, I mentioned how there comes a point in every great player's career when you have to pour the cement, let it harden and see what you have. We poured the cement for LeBron in this series. It hardened last night. We know what we have.


And last night, LeBron's DNA finally made sense to me. Throw Jordan out. Throw Magic out, too, except for the "controls sections of a game with passing/rebounding" part. Keep Bo. Now, add this guy … Julius Erving.
I will explain.
Doc was one of the 20 best NBA players of all time. (In my book, I ranked him 16th.) Like LeBron, he did things on a basketball court that nobody had ever seen before. Like LeBron, he made the court shrink with a full head of steam. Like LeBron, his peers revered his talents. Like LeBron, he was articulate and thoughtful. Like LeBron, you watched him from afar and thought, "He seems like a good guy." Like LeBron, he was a small forward who rebounded bigger than his size (at least the first few years). Like LeBron, his durability was almost unparalleled. (Doc played in 1,277 of a possible 1,395 games, including seven seasons of 95-plus games). Like LeBron, women and children loved him. Like LeBron, he was extremely savvy about his image (and how to cultivate it). Like LeBron, he was an incredible, once-in-a-generation athlete. Like LeBron, his faulty outside shooting plagued him, so teams laid off him, packed the middle and prayed he would miss 20-footers. And, like LeBron, he was a nice guy.
(Hold that last thought for a second.)


Doc at age 26 (ABA, 1975-76 season, his fifth): 29.3 PPG, 11.0 RPG, 5.0 APG, 50.7% FG.
LeBron at age 25 (this year, his seventh season): 29.7 PPG, 7.3 RPG, 8.6 APG, 50.3% FG.
Doc in the '76 playoffs (13 games): 34.7 PPG, 12.6 RPG, 4.9 APG, 53.3% FG.
LeBron in the '10 playoffs (11 games): 29.1 PPG, 9.3 RPG, 7.6 APG, 50.2% FG.

interesting analysis. can't say i disagree.

Originally Posted by simmons

Back to LeBron: I think we know what we have. He's Doc 2.0 with a little Magic and a healthy dose of Bo sprinkled in. That means the following …
1. LeBron can win an NBA title (or titles) as the best player on a really good team with another leader in place (whether it's a great coach or another player).
2. If LeBron switches teams to a similar situation to the one he had in Cleveland these past two years (basically, LeBron and the LeBronettes), that won't translate to titles. (FYI: He finished seven wins short last spring and 10 wins short this spring. Not even close.) Staying in Cleveland, hiring John Calipari and sign-and-trading Jamison and Hickson to Toronto for Chris Bosh … that won't solve the problem here. Neither will jumping to the Knicks/Clippers/Mavericks.
3. If he cares about winning titles (multiple) and reaching his full potential as a player, he has only one move: the Chicago Bulls. That's always been the play. If you've been listening to my podcast or reading this column, you know that I've been touting this possibility since the winter, and here's why: Deep down, I think LeBron (and, just as important, the people around him) realizes that he needs one more kick-ass player to make his life easier. That means Miami or Chicago. And really, I can't imagine him signing with Miami because Dwyane Wade is almost too good. LeBron wants help, but he doesn't want to be perceived as riding someone else's coattails, either. Wade might be the best player alive for all we know -- he certainly was in 2006, and he's been banged-up and trapped on bad teams ever since.
No, Chicago makes more sense. Derrick Rose and Joakim Noah proved they were warriors these past two springs. They could be LeBron's Pippen/Grant or McHale/DJ. Easily. Rose could take the creative load off LeBron on nights when he doesn't have it. Rose could come through a few times in the clutch. Rose could hide some of LeBron's faults. It's the single smartest basketball move for LeBron James. It's the Michael Corleone move.


Of course, it doesn't have the same upside as New York: Biggest market, great fans, most meaning. If LeBron saved professional basketball in New York and brought Knicks fans their first title since 1973? That's the best available accomplishment in team sports right now. Name me a better one. You can't. Biggest star, biggest city. But it wouldn't be a smart basketball move. He could bring only one good free agent with him, and from what we've seen, would LeBron + (Chris Bosh, Carlos Boozer, Joe Johnson or Amar'e Stoudemire) combined with what the Knicks already have (not much) translate to anything more than what just happened in Cleveland? Please. That's the Sonny Corleone move.


The other realistic option: Just stay in Cleveland. Finish what you started. That's the second-best available accomplishment in team sports right now: Be like Tim Duncan. Be the guy who didn't flee for greener pastures. Be the guy who stayed when almost everyone else would have left. Be the hometown kid who saved Cleveland sports, brought home the first title since 1964 and single-handedly removed the fatalistic malaise that hangs over the city. Be the guy who proved loyalty matters more than anything else. That's the Connie Corleone move. Remember when she finally forgave Michael for killing Carlo and became the matriarch of the family? Exactly. Family trumped logic.
(And yes, if you're scoring at home, the Clippers would be the Fredo Corleone move.)


It's one of the greatest sports decisions I can remember: LeBron can choose winning (Chicago), loyalty (Cleveland) or a chance at immortality (New York). We have one answer -- Doc 2.0 with some Magic and Bo sprinkled in -- and now, we're waiting on the other. Within the next six weeks, we will find out precisely what matters to LeBron James. Just know that, wherever he lands, he's going to need a little more help than we thought.

[Pumpy Tudors]

So after reading this thing from Simmons, I think the following:

I know who Jordan is.
I know who Erving is.
I know who Magic is.
Who the hell is Bo?

[stevew]

bo jackson

[Pumpy Tudors]

I sorta thought he meant Bo Jackson, but it seems kinda random to mention a bunch of basketball players and then throw a football/baseball player in there. But whatever. Bill Simmons can go jump off a bridge into lake fuck for all I care.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

I sorta thought he meant Bo Jackson, but it seems kinda random to mention a bunch of basketball players and then throw a football/baseball player in there. But whatever. Bill Simmons can go jump off a bridge into lake fuck for all I care.

this.

jordan didn't win his first till he was 28. which is the magic number for athletes. it was also around the time he became a legitimate jump shooting threat.

so let's all just fucking relax.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by NorvTurnerOverdrive

this.

jordan didn't win his first till he was 28. which is the magic number for athletes. it was also around the time he became a legitimate jump shooting threat.

so let's all just fucking relax.

hasn't it been exhaustively shown that it's not the age of athletes (in particular NBA players), but the amount of game experience that they have that is important, due to the varying ages they enter the league? Pretty sure that's common wisdom now.

Jordan won his first title in 90-91. The beginning of that season he had 16,639 minutes played (and he played like 3300 more minutes that season).

Lebron has now played 22,108 minutes. By conventional thinking, his NBA career (typically 40,000 max-ability minutes) is more than halfway over. He is what he is. He's more interested in making underhand halfcourt shots before a game then developing his jumpshot further.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

hasn't it been exhaustively shown

where?

edit: off the top of my head: shaq 2000 finals mvp, age 28, kobe 2009 finals mvp age 28

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by NorvTurnerOverdrive

where?

edit: off the top of my head: shaq 2000 finals mvp, age 28, kobe 2009 finals mvp age 28

there have been multiple articles out there on the subject IIRC. I don't have any of them at my fingertips, but I'm sure a quick google would work for that

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

tony parker 2007 finals mvp, 27
paul pierce 2008 finals mvp, 30

edit:
06 dwade, 24- anomaly, but doesn't meet your criteria either
05 tim duncan 30
04 chauncey billups, 28
03 duncan, 27
00, 01, 02 shaq 28, 29, 30

then we get into the jordan era. your studies stink.

[BreizhManu]

Originally Posted by NorvTurnerOverdrive

tony parker 2007 finals mvp, 27

25 actually, since he turns 28 next monday

Have to agree with Simmons, Chicago or stay in Cleveland are the only places where he can win titles.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by NorvTurnerOverdrive

tony parker 2007 finals mvp, 27
paul pierce 2008 finals mvp, 30

edit:
06 dwade, 24- anomaly, but doesn't meet your criteria either
05 tim duncan 30
04 chauncey billups, 28
03 duncan, 27
00, 01, 02 shaq 28, 29, 30

then we get into the jordan era. your studies stink.

I'm not sure i understand your point at all. You're posting the ages of a bunch of random finals MVP's. What does that prove? The Jordan era was not the era of high schoolers going straight to the pros. I think DT is going a bit far by saying its been "exhaustively shown" that its minutes and not age that matter as far as career arc just like you're going a bit far by saying that looking at an era when everyone was basically the same age when they hit the NBA proves that you're right.


MrBug posted this over in the NBA Playoffs thread when this exact same discussion came up a couple weeks ago:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...ros/index.html


When I read that I don't see the answer but I see enough to be curious about what's going to happen

It's just enough statistical evidence to call into question those who automatically say, "Wait 'til LeBron hits his peak at age 27 or 28.'' Maybe James' peak is now, shifted earlier by his hastened ... well, his hastened everything. The Cavs' superstar got to the NBA quicker than legends of the past, developed more rapidly, learned to dominate individually sooner, figured out how to prod older teammates and found ways to win games at an earlier age than so many of his predecessors. But he also has endured more wear and tear, put in longer hours, flown more airline miles, embraced more off-court opportunities-slash-distractions and, for a few years when he might have been strolling across campus for a psychology mid-term, he was picking himself off floors in Milwaukee, Denver and Indianapolis.

The part that I bolded there I think is critical. No one is saying that Lebron will be gone by age 28. The argument is more about how much more growth we can see from Lebron and how long he can stay on top. The greatest players have found ways to stay great a little longer, Jordan developing his jump shot and simply being a much smarter player to compensate for the fact that he started slowing down, etc. So we're not saying that Lebron can't win titles, cant get a bunch more MVP's, etc.

But there seems to be mounting evidence that just because Lebron came into the league 3 or 4 years younger than most players doesn't mean he automatically gets 3 or 4 extra years of greatness that weren't available to Jordan or Bird or Magic, that at the magic age of 28 all of them are at their peaks, but Lebron will have 3 or 4 extra seasons of wear and tear on his body and his time as an elite player will be a lot closer to ending than those other guys.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

the story is always the same. superstar has been in the league for x seasons and still hasn't won a title. he's broken.

he needs a coach, a veteran presence, a point guard blah blah blah.

yet, most of the time, usually around age 28-32 they win a title.

that's what i was harping on. the sentiment from the simmons article that lebron doesn't have 'it' the fire in his belly, the heart of a champion, the will to win, whatever.

maybe 'it' is just fucking maturity.

he still acts like a douchebag 25 year old. it's well evidenced in that choreographed pre-game bullshit they do.

it's the same with all the prodigies. shaq was in the fu-schnickens, kobe made a rap cd, jordan use to rock the gold chains and then, what?

they grew out of it.

will he break down early? i don't know. maybe. probably. but i'll bet my house he wins at least 2 titles between the ages of 28-32

[Fidatelo]

I agree with Norv, while he may have the extra game experience, he doesn't have any extra life experience. He's still only 25, regardless of whether he was in the NBA at 18 or 22. While it may affect him a bit more in his early 30's because his body begins to wear down earlier, I think he's still going to have a good 5 years of peak-to-near-peak physicality, and in that window he should also crest the maturity peak as well.

While I think it's fair to criticize some athletes for not having the drive (hello Vince Carter), I think too often we tend to do it a) too soon; and b) too often. Some guys just aren't in the right place at the right time, while other guys are. It's life.

[TroyF]

If you read the article, Simmons doesn't say Bron won't win a title. He says he can win multiple titles in fact. What he also says is that to do that, he'll have to have great leadership on the team in place, probably in the form of a coach and other player.

He's not the guy to take the reigns himself.

Is that harsh or unfair criticism? Maybe, but I don't think it is. Forget for a second about Bron's actual game 5 effort for a second. Let's just pretend he gave 150% effort and he just had an off night. Look at the quotes after the game. Would Jordan have been caught dead making those comments? At 20, 21, 24, 25, 28 or 35? Forget the age, Jordan would have been livid. He'd have been livid at his teammates, the fans, the world. And he'd have come out in game 5 and given an all time FU game.

Simmons is simply saying Lebron doesn't have the Magic/Bird/Jordan DNA. He doesn't care THAT much. And you know what? I think he's dead on.

At the end of the article he talked about one word to describe players.

MJ, Magic, Bird, Russell - WINNING
Wilt - NUMBERS
Kobe - GREATNESS (will give up some wins to prove he's great, like tanking the Suns game in '06)
KG - WORK
Nash, Stockton, Cousy - TEAM
Barkley - FUN

Lebron - AMAZE (he wants us to drop our jaws in awe, winning is just the side effect)

You know what? I think he nailed it.

[RainMaker]

We discussed it in the NBA thread. Minutes is a better indicator than age. Studies have shown that players out of high school had shorter NBA careers. Lebron's career as a superstar is over half over.

It's also worth mentioning that Lebron is a big guy. 6'9 and some say 270. Will it breakdown at some point? We see guys that size have long careers, but they are typically playing in the post and not slashing like Lebron.

I'd also add that a lot of the stars had to change their game around. Jordan became more of a jump shooter who could post guys up. Kobe has transformed into a guy who can play in the post. Will Lebron put in the effort to transform when his body can no longer matchup physically to younger players? Lebron won't be able to play this style in 4-5 years.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by TroyF

If you read the article, Simmons doesn't say Bron won't win a title. He says he can win multiple titles in fact. What he also says is that to do that, he'll have to have great leadership on the team in place, probably in the form of a coach and other player.

Yah, this is pretty key. Saying Lebron isn't like Jordan isn't the worst thing in the world. Jordan has an extremely unhealthy competitive streak, it just happened to be something that we loved about him when it came to basketball.

Just read the last line of Simmons' article:

Just know that, wherever he lands, he's going to need a little more help than we thought.

That doesn't seem unreasonable at all, doesn't mean Lebron is a bust, doesn't mean he sucks, doesn't mean he can't win many rings, etc. Hell, most of that article is a bunch of what if's that everyone else is already talking about. If he *really* wants to win and that is his biggest driving force then Chicago seems far and away the best option. If he ends up in New York then one would have to assume that the idea of being a larger than life celebrity are clouding the compulsion to win titles at least a little bit. And again, that's not the worst thing in the world, it just might mean he ends up a below where he could have been at the end of his career if he had an unhealthy compulsive desire to win that consumed him.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

sorry, every time i see the name bill simmons i go blind with rage. let me reread the article.

...

okay so,

he's a mix of dr.j, bo jackson and magic except not so much magic because he hasn't won shit.

he needs a group of competent players around him and a coach with leadership skills.

if he cared about winning he'd go to chicago and if he goes anywhere else he's a selfish cunt.

well, how embarrassing for me. here i thought he was just another self important asshole with an opinion but this is truly some insightful journalism.